Professionalism in electronic sports - Page 15

On July 08 2011 02:38 ZarMulix wrote:


I think his issue, and probably the issue many people are having, is that your article doesn't do a good job of explaining your reasoning behind your thesis. I think that you assume that your point is obvious and therefore doesn't need explanation, but as is obvious from most of the replies here that is not true. If you don't argue the concept of censoring and professionalism itself, all you are doing is stating your opinion. But just stating your opinion is not your goal here. Your goal here is to inspire people to take action or see things your way (see: argument or persuasive article), hence, saying things like, "it's my opinion therefore it's biased" is not enough. You need to provide evidence, make more claims than your initial thesis, and most of all define and develop your idea.

You never explain why "unprofessionalism" is bad. Trust me, you don't. I'm looking at the article right now. There is not one sentence dedicated to explaining why this is so. Not one.

You say that BM and actions of the like should be denounced when possible, and mention that "the community's reaction was luckily very negative to this whole ordeal..." regarding the contracts issue. This is obviously an example of your stances on these issues and what you approve/disapprove of. But once again you do not tell me why this is the "right" stance to have on this.

You complain that major organizations do not take BM seriously enough and that traditional/"professional" sports keep manners hidden or private. You say that Starcraft is not currently like that, and that " The same needs to become true for electronic sports."
..
Why? Stop telling me what I NEED to do, what MUST be done, and what SHOULD be true without telling me why. I KNOW that you want things a certain way, but you have to prove that your way is superior in some way and way. Maybe it's inferior, but argue that. You don't argue anything, simply state your views. You definitely have the right to state your views, but you cannot expect people to see things your way without arguing morally, logically, etc.

For example, I think that BM at this point in Starcraft 2 is helping it. From reading through several forums I have seen evidence of it igniting passion in spectators (positive or negative). I do not believe Starcraft's current audience is easily offended, and therefore companies who sponsor Starcraft will continue to do so and do not incur much more risk doing so. I think that censorship in general is a dumb idea because I believe it falls on the viewers/recipients to decide what is acceptable or not. No sweeping generalization will ever please everyone, but to think that popular opinion (which is what defines "acceptable") sets the standards for the filters that decide what information I get to receive is absurd in my opinion.

You don't offer evidence to dispute the logical or philosophical parts that constitute my opinion (notice, not argument). I am willing to bet that anyone who reads your article (your target audience as stated at the end) and has the power to do anything about it will be testing your argument against their logic, their philosophy, and their biases. If you don't challenge their views, how do you expect to change them?

So then the issue becomes, why did you write the article in the first place? It is likely not going to achieve your goal, you did not develop any novel ,or any, ideas, and you're apparently not swaying even the casual readers of this forum. The response you're receiving isn't about you. It is about the article. People will argue about anything, but in order to have a good discussion you need to have a clear way of presenting information/arguments to one another. I know that you have this idea in your head, but all we get to see is the information placed in front of us. There is only so much that we can deduce without risking misinterpretation or wild assumptions. People are angry because you have chosen a stance that is not popular without taking the time or effort to actually say anything. People have the same reaction to those who tell everyone they're going to hell on the train (I live in NYC) because they're not of the same religion, people who say that being gay is wrong using the argument "Marriage is sacred," and the list goes on and on. These are perfectly valid opinions, but don't expect me to accept them without any discussion or evidence. Let us at least rationalize for a bit.

I repeat myself, but this is because I think this is important for both you and whoever else decides to write up their opinion in an "article." If you're attempting to sway beliefs, you have to argue properly (as in using evidence, clear flows of logic, anything else I mentioned before - and more!). Bad writing (which is what this is) does not contribute much to more to E-Sports than the traffic it brings to random threads on TeamLiquid. I would even go so far as to argue that bad writing and articles such as these are BAD FOR E-SPORTS (hahaha, I said it), but that would require more thought, effort, research and most of all time which I do not have as I have to go get my passport application handed in.

In case this wasn't clear (since I'm kind of all over the place), I claim that people are reacting on the quality of your writing rather than your opinion (since it isn't developed at all in the article). Therefore expect people to not take it seriously, and for people to react negatively when you add in bits and pieces of your argument as you respond to posts. You should not develop your idea in your replies, they should be fairly clear from the "get-go."

I look forward to seeing more "high quality" opinionated articles from people in the future. Gotta go!

On July 08 2011 04:22 CheckSix Gaming wrote:
I am not a psychic; I cannot see the future. However, I do see a future I no longer like to be apart of with eSports if we continue down this path of overall disrespect and bad manner. To me, the leagues shouldn't HAVE to create rules and enforce them with an iron fist. Being well mannered to each other should be something that should have been taught to you by your parents or people in your community and you should have enough respect for yourself and our community to enforce yourself. Don't like losing? Get over it. No one like's losing. It's a fact of life.

To me, as a manager, a sponsor, and as a person with a little common fucking sense..I will not support anyone that is not able to execute a little self-discipline and professionalism to others in his/her own community.

( That is also not a poke at Idra; or anyone in specific for that matter. I don't necessarily agree with Idra, and the way he acts..but he is getting better so I can at least appreciate that. Hopefully, he will continue to do so. )

On July 08 2011 04:48 BurningSera wrote:
not to disrespect of TL or anything, but HuK did started the conversation (in game) which is not supposed to happen. and by judging at that specific situation, basically Huk was taunting idra and idra replied with a 'fck off'. totally natural human response lol.

On July 08 2011 04:30 seoul_kiM wrote:


We shouldn't have to have laws that prohibit rape, robbery, and murder but....we do need it.

If you think that players BM'ing has a whole lot to do with how they were brought up, I think you got it all wrong. It's about having a competitive nature and feeling an instinctive burst of emotion when you win or lose that takes over a person's rationality. Not many players BM on a regular basis to everyone they meet which would indicate a psychological connection between the general familial education of a player.

Many players BM before and during games...not really after they lose. Idra didn't flip MC off after he lost...he did it during one of MCs funny "BMish" ceremonies and it created hype and drama that came from high levels emotions from both players.

This isn't a parochial private school...it's an online competitive computer game...

On July 08 2011 02:10 Slusher wrote:


Are you posting from some fantasy world where Mark Cuban doesn't exist?

On July 08 2011 04:53 SentinelSC2 wrote:


No you have a point, but people are unrealistically expecting IdrA to respond with something like "oh, that was rather silly, well played"

On July 08 2011 04:55 MrDudeMan wrote:


Its extremely hypocritical of you to claim that people should not feel bad about losing, but then also state that we should take this more seriously then a game. Perhaps losing effects people more then it effects you because they are more passionate about the game, you probably know better then I do the amount of practice players put in. You say it yourself that people treat this as more then a computer game.

On July 08 2011 04:55 CheckSix Gaming wrote:


You both are incorrect. First off, it's my opinion both players were wrong in that circumstance. I also believe ( please correct me if I am wrong MLG/EG/TL ) but both were warned for their actions as well.



There has to be a line between taking something seriously, and being able to control yourself and your emotions. I played youth baseball when I was younger...and was extremely competitive in it and loved it. However, when my team lost I did not tell the coach to go kill himself. Did I think that? Sure! haha.

Look everyone, I'm not saying all people should be robots here like people seem to be implying. I wish people would stop making this about polar opposites and instead understand that BOTH can co-exist and we don't have to have BM in order to keep things interesting. If you are honestly here just for the BM, then you don't truly like the game and should PROBABLY just go watch Nascar or something and wait for the crashes.