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On July 05 2011 06:48 Necosarius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 05:36 Probe1 wrote:What's so terrible about having to make ghosts? I see a lot of successful infestor play and a lot of terrible responses to it. Fungal is as good of a spell as storm is and infested terrans are only as useful as the situation. If you complain about having 4 infestors dump Infested Terrans into your mineral line, maybe you should consider building a missile turret and a PF. The most common response I hear when late game DT or drop play is utilized against zerg is "Stop being so greedy and build a spore and spine at your expos". Terran can do the same. Better, in fact- PFs and Missile Turrets are freaking awesome. Terran just needs to rethink what to respond to mass infestor with. On July 05 2011 05:32 Noocta wrote:
Caster are OP, all of them.
That's why the game is good.
People need to stop think about that. I can't imagine what people would say if we still had Defilers, old Templar or Science Vessel. -_- Can you imagine plague on 40 marines at once? ooh deeear god yes. I prefer eating a plague instead of a fungal growth. What Blizzard basicly did was to mix plague with ensnare and buff it a bit. IMO units should either be able to move when being fungaled (only they move slower) or they should be brought down to 1 hp.
with plague, you can run and retreat to the safety of tanks. Fungal=gg, it is litterally the fastest way to lose a game. Second only to getting forcedfield out of or stuck inside the base from toss.
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On July 05 2011 06:19 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 06:10 Zephirdd wrote:On July 05 2011 06:07 Gfire wrote:
I think one issue with infestors, not necessarily an imbalance, is that you cannot micro out of fungal growth. You have to spread your units and emp preemptively, unlike storm where you can move out from under it. But it's impossible to know where it is going to be until it's too late, which might not be imbalanced but it lessens possible micro which isn't very fun.
I think it would be cool if it was a projectile, then you could dodge it. I think they tried that in some PTR, I don't recall why they switched it back, everyone was complaining it was too weak or something. They could buff it's duration (with same DPS,) to balance that out I guess. I'd love the projectile thing too, but people said infestor was too weak. Bullshit IMO, it was perfectly fine. It even opened the possibility of mutas on ZvZ as a non-cheesy stable build. With the projectile, you could dodge it with stim marine way too easily.
yeah god forbid we should use micro to minimize damage. wtf? why is it them possible to micro out of storms? silly thing to say really. but typical nonetheless
Early game zerg is relatively weak, so late game zerg must be relatively strong. If you weaken zerg late game, you must also strengthen zerg early game, or the win-lose ratio of the race will drop dead.
So when people ask "how can i stop infestor", well, the answer is, you try your best, like emp, but if you still lose more than you win, think about how often you win early with mmm.
i dont agree with this. i honestly think the game should be so that all 3 races are balanced at every stage of the game. what you are basically implying is that go for MMM timing push every game to win or lose. thats a really stupid way to play a potentially awesome game. no fun in doing the same shit every game or dying
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1st: Wait 2 weeks until a T finds a good opening beyond bunker rushing against Spanishwa/Destinys opening
2nd: Wait until people realize that sniping Infestors take the same amount of micro then NPing their Thors/Tanks
3rd: Enjoy being flames by people who think "this must be imba because MY build doesn't work" and play T since beta 
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On July 05 2011 06:54 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 06:48 Necosarius wrote:On July 05 2011 05:36 Probe1 wrote:What's so terrible about having to make ghosts? I see a lot of successful infestor play and a lot of terrible responses to it. Fungal is as good of a spell as storm is and infested terrans are only as useful as the situation. If you complain about having 4 infestors dump Infested Terrans into your mineral line, maybe you should consider building a missile turret and a PF. The most common response I hear when late game DT or drop play is utilized against zerg is "Stop being so greedy and build a spore and spine at your expos". Terran can do the same. Better, in fact- PFs and Missile Turrets are freaking awesome. Terran just needs to rethink what to respond to mass infestor with. On July 05 2011 05:32 Noocta wrote:
Caster are OP, all of them.
That's why the game is good.
People need to stop think about that. I can't imagine what people would say if we still had Defilers, old Templar or Science Vessel. -_- Can you imagine plague on 40 marines at once? ooh deeear god yes. I prefer eating a plague instead of a fungal growth. What Blizzard basicly did was to mix plague with ensnare and buff it a bit. IMO units should either be able to move when being fungaled (only they move slower) or they should be brought down to 1 hp. with plague, you can run and retreat to the safety of tanks. Fungal=gg, it is litterally the fastest way to lose a game. Second only to getting forcedfield out of or stuck inside the base from toss.
I don't know, take for example tvp bw, no marines.
Do you guys think it's possible for a marineless ghost based strategy to be viable?
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On July 05 2011 06:54 eu.exodus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 06:19 Noocta wrote:On July 05 2011 06:10 Zephirdd wrote:On July 05 2011 06:07 Gfire wrote:
I think one issue with infestors, not necessarily an imbalance, is that you cannot micro out of fungal growth. You have to spread your units and emp preemptively, unlike storm where you can move out from under it. But it's impossible to know where it is going to be until it's too late, which might not be imbalanced but it lessens possible micro which isn't very fun.
I think it would be cool if it was a projectile, then you could dodge it. I think they tried that in some PTR, I don't recall why they switched it back, everyone was complaining it was too weak or something. They could buff it's duration (with same DPS,) to balance that out I guess. I'd love the projectile thing too, but people said infestor was too weak. Bullshit IMO, it was perfectly fine. It even opened the possibility of mutas on ZvZ as a non-cheesy stable build. With the projectile, you could dodge it with stim marine way too easily. yeah god forbid we should use micro to minimize damage. wtf? why is it them possible to micro out of storms? silly thing to say really. but typical nonetheless
It's not my words dude. It' why blizzard remove the projectile. And because zerg was in trouble, buffing infestor but making them too hard to use would have result in noone using them like before the patch.
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Mr Bitter did not come up with that build, tons of people were using it before he even made it out of diamond.
Other than that, ghosts are the counter to Zerg T3. Snipe for broodlords/ultras, EMP for infestors. Very strong and underused units, so I don't feel that infestors are OP at all.
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On July 05 2011 05:32 Noocta wrote:
Caster are OP, all of them.
That's why the game is good.
People need to stop think about that. I can't imagine what people would say if we still had Defilers, old Templar or Science Vessel. -_-
I don't 100% agree with the first part.
I do 100% agree with the second part.
Casters are good, they require micro to use, and you should be rewarded by using them. But if you split well, EMP well, or just straight up outmicro and kill the caster, you're much father in the lead.
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The game is balenced at the moment, nothing needs to change.
Infestors are great units for zerg but like alot of zerg units they are very fragile. Terrans can easily take advantage of a zerg getting infestors with a lot of drops, sending single cloaked banshees in to was energy and in army battle the obvious answer is the ghost to EMP and snipe (the ghost is also very good at killing broodlords and ultras with snipe) You can also spread your bio army to avoid it all getting fungaled.
On July 05 2011 05:45 Tachion wrote:
I don't get it, you're making this argument for how strong infestors are, and your examples are Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style.
If you absolutely must talk about the strength of infestors vs Terran, the obvious focal point should be brood/corruptor/infestor.
I like the part where you said "Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style"
These three are some of the most imaganitive zerg players there are. Have you ever seen any of them play?
Here let me help you, this is Destiny vs Bomber, a very good korean pro player. It's a best of 3, Destiny uses a lot of infestors and hive tech in each game. You can not only see how to make infestors work, but also for all the terrans out there you can see how to win against them
Game 1 - Shakuras
Game 2 - XNC
Game 3 - Shattered temple
Edit: i've just seen that theres a thread about the Destiny vs Bomber games already up, Here it is!
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So many people forget that this game is (hopefully) designed for the highest tier players. If the infestor is OP at our skill level (very doubtful) but fine in high level play, that's how it should stay. When I was playing Z in gold league I thought zealots and colossus were OP however at a high level they've been fairly balanced.
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I strongly believe zerg tier 3 should be weakened while t2 is strengthened. Its no fun to auto-lose once you get to a certain point in the game.
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oh my sweet jesus terran has to use ghosts? what on earth has the late game come to?
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On July 05 2011 07:03 iamho wrote:
I strongly believe zerg tier 3 should be weakened while t2 is strengthened. Its no fun to auto-lose once you get to a certain point in the game.
I concur. When zerg has broodlord/corruptor/infestor compo it is basically over. TvZ is all about killing the shit out of the zerg before he reaches his final boss units.
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On July 05 2011 05:45 Konsume wrote:When I see 4 hellions burning 20-30 of my lings cause I have no creep in this sector I'm not complaining. When I see 5 tanks raping my roach army, I'm not complaining When I see tanks getting on terrain I can't reach (aka on STemple, Shakuras etc...) I'm not complaining When I see blue flames drop or banshee killing 20+ drones cause I was not 110% focused at the verry second their entered my base, I'm not complaining When I see an offensive 2 barrackd + 2-3 bunkers and it success cause I did some bad micro and they win 5mins in the game, I'm not complaining... ... etc... So when I use infestors LATE game, a unit that cost more than it's share in gaz, that requires upgrade in order to not suck for a minute and require 2 other upgrade (the burrow and np) to be "fully used" and that only has 90hp for his cost (200gaz).... I better see no one complaining. Also... it is required to deal with protoss deathball. On a side note: terran has the perfect answer to them: 1. Cloacked ghost Emp + Snipe = gg infestors 2. Tanks, if infestors get in tank ranges... infestors are dead period 3. Banshee (cloacked preferably) will own them if you're skipping mutalisk and pretty much any units that can get to them will kill them in 2-3 hits max. So complaining about infestors.... how easy do you want SC2 to be for terrans?? 
what division are you in?
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[QUOTE]On July 05 2011 05:45 Konsume wrote:
When I see 4 hellions burning 20-30 of my lings cause I have no creep in this sector I'm not complaining.
When I see 5 tanks raping my roach army, I'm not complaining
When I see tanks getting on terrain I can't reach (aka on STemple, Shakuras etc...) I'm not complaining
When I see blue flames drop or banshee killing 20+ drones cause I was not 110% focused at the verry second their entered my base, I'm not complaining
When I see an offensive 2 barrackd + 2-3 bunkers and it success cause I did some bad micro and they win 5mins in the game, I'm not complaining...
...
You are complaining...
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I think TvZ is at its best when Terrans answer for the Zerg army is position and in battle micro. FG rooting eliminates this and I think it's a mistake.
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IMO unit splitting (i.e. micro) can reduce the effectiveness of infestors by a huge margin. Let's see a few weeks of Terrans NOT running clumped up marine balls unti infestors and then reevaluate the infestor.
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On July 05 2011 06:59 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:The game is balenced at the moment, nothing needs to change. Infestors are great units for zerg but like alot of zerg units they are very fragile. Terrans can easily take advantage of a zerg getting infestors with a lot of drops, sending single cloaked banshees in to was energy and in army battle the obvious answer is the ghost to EMP and snipe (the ghost is also very good at killing broodlords and ultras with snipe) You can also spread your bio army to avoid it all getting fungaled. Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 05:45 Tachion wrote:
I don't get it, you're making this argument for how strong infestors are, and your examples are Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style.
If you absolutely must talk about the strength of infestors vs Terran, the obvious focal point should be brood/corruptor/infestor.
I like the part where you said " Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style" These three are some of the most imaganitive zerg players there are. Have you ever seen any of them play? Here let me help you, this is Destiny vs Bomber, a very good korean pro player. It's a best of 3, Destiny uses a lot of infestors and hive tech in each game. You can not only see how to make infestors work, but also for all the terrans out there you can see how to win against them Game 1 - ShakurasGame 2 - XNCGame 3 - Shattered templeEdit: i've just seen that theres a thread about the Destiny vs Bomber games already up, Here it is!
What does them being imaginative have anything to do with anything? You do realize my emphasis was on their accomplishments right?
Of course they're all incredibly imaginative, but that doesn't mean that it's a practical style. What have they done to prove that this style actually works in high level play aside from 1 Bo3 that hardly counted for anything against a Korean who played poorly in high latency.
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I think it should be handled just as NaDa described in his message from Korea: tanks, marines, vikings, a lot of positioning, and maybe a couple ghosts. Ideally, the zerg is dead before every getting to that point. People talk about "ghosts", but from what I've seen, they're not very good against the composition overall. Sniping broodlords is a guaranteed way to have your ghosts killed.
I think from watching Drewbie, Destiny's build is incredibly easy to counter. You just have to turtle as Terran and there's nothing he can do. since he'll be behind in bases the whole game. The game is the absolute most boring 1 hour snore fest, however.
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This matchup would be a hell of a lot different if FG didn't deny movement, since that basically shuts down all of the "hard-counters" to zerg tier 3 (vikings, ghosts, mariners). And for everyone here that thinks it takes 2 snipes to kill an infestor or 5 snipes to kill a broodlord, you are wrong. It takes an extra snipe to kill most zerg units because they begin regenerating immediately after receiving damage.
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The reason why Infestor/Broodlord seems imballanced is because people are retards and dont use their brains or creative play, TERRAN HAVE GHOSTS, HAVE THEY HEARD OF EMP?
Ghosts have become standard in TvP battles, they should be in TvZ also, that would stop all of the whining over nothing imo.
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EPT
