in my opinion there are 2 overpowered units in the game, one more so than the other, however, the race that each respective unit belongs to is not overpowered in and of itself for reasons I will present shortly.
these 2 units are the infestor and colossus, and I would argue that the infestor is the more powerful unit, I have no reason to say they are overpowered other than my observations, and will present no such reason, this is simply an opinion, no more, no less.
however, as I mentioned earlier, zerg and protoss are not more powerful than terran, even though they have these "overpowered" units, the reason for this is because almost every other unit in the zerg and protoss arsenal is underpowered (again, opinion).
the zerg tier 2 army is hopelessly weak, with the exception of infestors, and so is the protoss tier 2 army (sentries can make or break battles though and I repeat, opinion) this is weighed up by their very powerful support units instead, as for terran, MMM is by far the most powerful "single target" army i.e. army where there is no AOE capabilities and is balanced by having much weaker splash choices, the only "good" splash choice for terran is the siege tank (the other terran splash is PF, nuke, EMP , thor AA, seeker missile, all of these are situational patheticly underused or in the case of PF, static defense), while zerg have banelings, fungal growth and ultralisks all being excellent damage dealers. protoss have colossus, High Templar and archon all being good damage dealers too.
On July 05 2011 06:07 Gfire wrote: I think one issue with infestors, not necessarily an imbalance, is that you cannot micro out of fungal growth. You have to spread your units and emp preemptively, unlike storm where you can move out from under it. But it's impossible to know where it is going to be until it's too late, which might not be imbalanced but it lessens possible micro which isn't very fun.
I think it would be cool if it was a projectile, then you could dodge it. I think they tried that in some PTR, I don't recall why they switched it back, everyone was complaining it was too weak or something. They could buff it's duration (with same DPS,) to balance that out I guess.
I'd love the projectile thing too, but people said infestor was too weak. Bullshit IMO, it was perfectly fine. It even opened the possibility of mutas on ZvZ as a non-cheesy stable build.
On July 05 2011 06:07 Gfire wrote: I think one issue with infestors, not necessarily an imbalance, is that you cannot micro out of fungal growth. You have to spread your units and emp preemptively, unlike storm where you can move out from under it. But it's impossible to know where it is going to be until it's too late, which might not be imbalanced but it lessens possible micro which isn't very fun.
I think it would be cool if it was a projectile, then you could dodge it. I think they tried that in some PTR, I don't recall why they switched it back, everyone was complaining it was too weak or something. They could buff it's duration (with same DPS,) to balance that out I guess.
stopping micro with fungal isn't imba, you can forcefield and storm for the same effect and actually storm does more damage and you can trap a bigger army with forcefields than you can with multiple fungals.
When new style is developed it shouldn't be called imba from the bat. I think it's time for T and P to get creative instead relying on few robust units to carry them over. So many terrans are used to make only marines and tanks and expect to counter every combination of Zerg army. I don't know if Infestor is too good, I am too big of a noob for that, what I do know is, few games won in some tournaments, don't make for a good statistic pool to reach such conclusion. I haven't seen any Zerg winning any tournament for some time.
On July 05 2011 06:07 Gfire wrote: I think one issue with infestors, not necessarily an imbalance, is that you cannot micro out of fungal growth. You have to spread your units and emp preemptively, unlike storm where you can move out from under it. But it's impossible to know where it is going to be until it's too late, which might not be imbalanced but it lessens possible micro which isn't very fun.
I think it would be cool if it was a projectile, then you could dodge it. I think they tried that in some PTR, I don't recall why they switched it back, everyone was complaining it was too weak or something. They could buff it's duration (with same DPS,) to balance that out I guess.
I'd love the projectile thing too, but people said infestor was too weak. Bullshit IMO, it was perfectly fine. It even opened the possibility of mutas on ZvZ as a non-cheesy stable build.
With the projectile, you could dodge it with stim marine way too easily.
the problem with this strat is especially on cross positions on big map. zerg gets their creep spread perfectly u basically have to spend 10 minutes slow pushing to their base. if you unsiege they will see you and just fungal your army to death. that or you can save up like 10 scans and kill all the creep tumors and have no econ left...
Early game zerg is relatively weak, so late game zerg must be relatively strong. If you weaken zerg late game, you must also strengthen zerg early game, or the win-lose ratio of the race will drop dead.
So when people ask "how can i stop infestor", well, the answer is, you try your best, like emp, but if you still lose more than you win, think about how often you win early with mmm.
On July 05 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote: Infestor/sling/(tier3) is like what mech was some time ago. It seems to be imbalanced, but when you learn to adjust to play against it (ghosts), you will be able to counter it as just "another strategy".
The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only like 3-4 snipes to kill broodlord and maybe 1 more to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy.
And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases.
On July 05 2011 05:49 Eleaven wrote: Ghosts are super effective. 2 snipes = dead infestor 1 money emp = 3-5 infestors neutered for the duration of the battle.
The standard response to "u only won cos infestor op" should be "spread your units and get ghosts"
Okay let's just get this straight.
It takes 3 snipes, not 2, to kill an infestor. It takes 6 snipes, not 3-4, to kill a broodlord. It takes 12, and sure as fucking hell not 4-5, to kill an ultralisk.
Actually, it can take 2 snipes to kill an infestor. So yea...
On July 05 2011 06:19 mols0n wrote: the problem with this strat is especially on cross positions on big map. zerg gets their creep spread perfectly u basically have to spend 10 minutes slow pushing to their base. if you unsiege they will see you and just fungal your army to death. that or you can save up like 10 scans and kill all the creep tumors and have no econ left...
Against infestors getting a raven is ok, anyway you want on close pos (/w a 2b strat), either some ghosts or a bit more tanks, so no reactor port and you can afford a raven. Which is not that bad if he pools energy in a mid game fight (3/4 turrets can create choke points, always funny) but never research hsm, if your raven is NP... you can't describe it.
On July 05 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote: Infestor/sling/(tier3) is like what mech was some time ago. It seems to be imbalanced, but when you learn to adjust to play against it (ghosts), you will be able to counter it as just "another strategy".
The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only like 3-4 snipes to kill broodlord and maybe 1 more to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy.
And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases.
On July 05 2011 05:49 Eleaven wrote: Ghosts are super effective. 2 snipes = dead infestor 1 money emp = 3-5 infestors neutered for the duration of the battle.
The standard response to "u only won cos infestor op" should be "spread your units and get ghosts"
Okay let's just get this straight.
It takes 3 snipes, not 2, to kill an infestor. It takes 6 snipes, not 3-4, to kill a broodlord. It takes 12, and sure as fucking hell not 4-5, to kill an ultralisk.
Actually, it can take 2 snipes to kill an infestor. So yea...
There is no way for terran to beat infestor/broodlord unless terran has a huge advantage over zerg already(like 80 supply versus a maax 200 food) or zerg making a mistake. Same with toss, the only time I seen toss beat this is when zerg leave their broodlords unprotect if zergs start learning that if they put roaches or lings under the broods then there is no way toss can beat this either.
Ghost is decent, but you need a lot of them which means a lot of techlab barracsk which is not viable in standard TvZ.. Snipe is questionable at best you need like 5-6 snipes to kill a single broodlord and I think 2-3 to kill a infestor and if they get fungaled you just plain lose...
You know the game is broken if you can only way if your opponenets plays wrong and there is nothing you can do about it.
I think even Morrow once said that terran has no good counter to this strat. Another problem is infestor broodlord=no movement at all. NO blink, NO rush forward. It is even worse than forcefield because there is a lot of chance to make mistakes with ff if you miss a single block and leave an opening they can still rush you. Not against broodlord/infestor tho, fungal+broodling makes any ground army cringe. I still remember a game between tarson and catz. Tarzon played beautifully he was up 3 base against catz 2 with about 150 food versus 90 then catz made broodlord infestor and gg from tarson soon came after.
On July 05 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote: Infestor/sling/(tier3) is like what mech was some time ago. It seems to be imbalanced, but when you learn to adjust to play against it (ghosts), you will be able to counter it as just "another strategy".
The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only like 3-4 snipes to kill broodlord and maybe 1 more to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy.
And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases.
On July 05 2011 05:49 Eleaven wrote: Ghosts are super effective. 2 snipes = dead infestor 1 money emp = 3-5 infestors neutered for the duration of the battle.
The standard response to "u only won cos infestor op" should be "spread your units and get ghosts"
Okay let's just get this straight.
It takes 3 snipes, not 2, to kill an infestor. It takes 6 snipes, not 3-4, to kill a broodlord. It takes 12, and sure as fucking hell not 4-5, to kill an ultralisk.
Actually, it can take 2 snipes to kill an infestor. So yea...
On July 05 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote: Infestor/sling/(tier3) is like what mech was some time ago. It seems to be imbalanced, but when you learn to adjust to play against it (ghosts), you will be able to counter it as just "another strategy".
The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only like 3-4 snipes to kill broodlord and maybe 1 more to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy.
And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases.
On July 05 2011 05:49 Eleaven wrote: Ghosts are super effective. 2 snipes = dead infestor 1 money emp = 3-5 infestors neutered for the duration of the battle.
The standard response to "u only won cos infestor op" should be "spread your units and get ghosts"
Okay let's just get this straight.
It takes 3 snipes, not 2, to kill an infestor. It takes 6 snipes, not 3-4, to kill a broodlord. It takes 12, and sure as fucking hell not 4-5, to kill an ultralisk.
Actually, it can take 2 snipes to kill an infestor. So yea...
It takes 2 if they're at the same time 3 if from the same ghost or not simultaneous. 1 hp regen.
yea I know this but it CAN and DOES take 2 snipes to kill an infestor when this guy is saying there is no way possible for it to take 2 snipes to kill an infestor. Just saying that it is possible
It's kind of funny we haven't seen more balance whine about infestors before this, Terrans were complaining that Protosses were able to "convert gas into pure damage" with High Templars in a late game situation when they had the amulet upgraded, but the way I see it, infestors are surely much stronger. A late game Zerg will be on multiple bases and as such will be able to make lots more infestors than a Protoss could high templars versus Terran. Blizzard nerfed high templars in response to Terrans being unable to deal with them by removing their energy upgrade, I wonder if they would do the same with infestors. Overall, I think that infestors are balanced and I hope that Blizzard doesn't nerf them, I think Terran players will just have to be creative this time to solve their problem.
p.s direct warp-in is not a good arguement to differentiate high templars and infestors, on a large map infestors will spawn with energy for 1 fungal each anyway.
I don't want to highjack this thread or move too far away from the topic, but I dislike the fact that we have discuss the strength of "mass caster strategies".
I find it fun to use casters in my matches since they require micro and reward good micro abilities so that I, as a former WC3 player, like using spell casters. But to me it seems that casters are way too massable compared to SC1.
In BW casters were a mere support unit that helped you in battles and increased the power of your core army. Defilers cast Dark Swarm so your army can rush into tank lines, HTs cast storm so that your gateway units clean up the rest of your enemies, Arbiters temporarily disable a part of your enemy army and Vessels irradiate enemy key units or fire EMPs.
All these units and abilities were powerful and had huge impacts on the outcome of battles, but they were never the core of your army. it still came down to having enough fighting units to crush your opponent. However in SC2 casters are not support units that give you an edge over your opponent they are staple units that define your army. If I play Toss, I have to get HTs to win against Terran when he has too many vikings. And I do not only get 2 to 4 HTs, no I often get 6 or 8 and storm the hell out of Terran. They are pivotal in winning battles and so is the ghost for Terrans. Mass infestors is the same story. I don't get 2 or 3 of them, I get a shit ton and fungal everything to death. And my opponent has to get a shit ton of HTs or Ghosts to counter that.
One could say: But it is interesting to have those dynamics in the game! caster versus caster battles. Well, that is true, but the downside is huge: casters are still fragile and the number one target for your enemy. If I catch a Zerg out of position and Feedback his Infestors, he loses. If I kill Ghosts before they EMP my templars, I crush the Terran. But Gods forbid if the terran gets off 2 money EMPs and disables my HTs... Well, then I can watch my army disappear in a few seconds thanks to crappy gateway units and powerful stimmed Marauders.
The caster centric play creates too much volatility imo. They are too important for your army if you get many of them. they become the core army and losing them results in a huge defeat.
I'm a Zerg player sick of being called overpowered for using infestors abilities to their full extent, and having no answer to the "how do i deal with it?" question.
I've been playing protoss forever. I'm sick of being called op for using anything. The worst part is that it's accepted.
On July 05 2011 06:26 xbankx wrote: There is no way for terran to beat infestor/broodlord unless terran has a huge advantage over zerg already(like 80 supply versus a maax 200 food) or zerg making a mistake. Same with toss, the only time I seen toss beat this is when zerg leave their broodlords unprotect if zergs start learning that if they put roahces orlings under the broods then there is no way toss can beat this either.
Ghost is decent, but you need a lot of them which means a lot of techlab barracsk which is not viable in standard TvZ.. Snipe is questionable at best you need like 5-6 snipes to kill a single broodlord and I think 2-3 to kill a infestor and if they get fungaled you just plain lose...
You know the game is broken if you can only way if your opponenets plays wrong and there is nothing you can do about it.
on big maps this comp can be handled, just kill his expo/tech /w drops. It's hard to do, but your opponent have a tough time too, and psychologically being ou multitasked is hard to deal with. The problem is on a map like metalo, where the Z just sit on his gold... Then i feel like a mech/ghost could be a good response, but it suppose to go mech first hand, and it's quite silly sometimes, and most T players (myself inculding) have like 0 xp of mech...
On July 05 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote: Infestor/sling/(tier3) is like what mech was some time ago. It seems to be imbalanced, but when you learn to adjust to play against it (ghosts), you will be able to counter it as just "another strategy".
The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only like 3-4 snipes to kill broodlord and maybe 1 more to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy.
And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases.
On July 05 2011 05:49 Eleaven wrote: Ghosts are super effective. 2 snipes = dead infestor 1 money emp = 3-5 infestors neutered for the duration of the battle.
The standard response to "u only won cos infestor op" should be "spread your units and get ghosts"
Okay let's just get this straight.
It takes 3 snipes, not 2, to kill an infestor. It takes 6 snipes, not 3-4, to kill a broodlord. It takes 12, and sure as fucking hell not 4-5, to kill an ultralisk.
Actually, it can take 2 snipes to kill an infestor. So yea...
It takes 2 if they're at the same time 3 if from the same ghost or not simultaneous. 1 hp regen.
yea I know this but it CAN and DOES take 2 snipes to kill an infestor when this guy is saying there is no way possible for it to take 2 snipes to kill an infestor. Just saying that it is possible
It's far more likely they aren't going to be simultaneous. You're saying a similar outlandish proposal that it only takes 2 at any given point (taking the same liberties as you did from his post). You could've easily said what I did and been right.
EPT
