EPTAt equal condition, infestor vs ghost is fair. You need to stop send all your ghost at once to prevent them being fungaled tho..
A (honest) look at the Infestor and ZvT lategame - Page 2
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
At equal condition, infestor vs ghost is fair. You need to stop send all your ghost at once to prevent them being fungaled tho.. | ||
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
On July 05 2011 05:41 Uhh Negative wrote: Might want to spoiler the parts about Destiny v Bomber. I hadn't watched the games yet but they are kind of ruined now. Not a big deal though. + Show Spoiler + Bomber was really, really unresponsive to Destiny's shenanigans. I don't think he made one ghost the whole game and got contained really, really hard. | ||
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Scorm
United States104 Posts
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Eleaven
772 Posts
2 snipes = dead infestor 1 money emp = 3-5 infestors neutered for the duration of the battle. The standard response to "u only won cos infestor op" should be "spread your units and get ghosts" | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On July 05 2011 05:45 Tachion wrote: I don't get it, you're making this argument for how strong infestors are, and your examples are Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style. If you absolutely must talk about the strength of infestors vs Terran, the obvious focal point should be brood/corruptor/infestor. I use them as example because they are the ones using this style. What I want to know is why is it that top-notch zergs(aside from IdrA who never changes) don't do this more often, and why is it that this style worked so well versus Bomber, when it "shouldn't" have worked so well if people don't do it more often. Also, Dimaga is a good example of Zerg that uses this style, although not as consistently as these guys. | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On July 05 2011 05:46 bonifaceviii wrote: + Show Spoiler + Bomber was really, really unresponsive to Destiny's shenanigans. I don't think he made one ghost the whole game and got contained really, really hard. you didn't watch game 1, did you...? | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On July 05 2011 05:49 Zephirdd wrote: I use them as example because they are the ones using this style. What I want to know is why is it that top-notch zergs(aside from IdrA who never changes) don't do this more often, and why is it that this style worked so well versus Bomber, when it "shouldn't" have worked so well if people don't do it more often. Also, Dimaga is a good example of Zerg that uses this style, although not as consistently as these guys. That work against Bomber because Bomber was lazy. Drop play > Mutaless Zerg. | ||
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
There was a game 1? Edit: Whoops, I didn't know it was a series! haha | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
The link in the OP leads to game 1. It's a Bo3 series. | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
Absolutely not worth a post. I don't know if this discussion can possibly be fruitful on TL. The Zerg bias is strong in this place ^^) I don't really know what to think about infestors - they're perfectly fine as an alternative to mutalisks (infestor-ling-bling is about even with muta-ling-blling) but the brood-infestor combo feels nearly unbeatable. Most of these discussions just end up with Zerg players yelling "adapt and get ghosts", while it isn't really as simple. It's incredibly hard to EMP all the infestors and snipe all the broodlords without lings+broodlings overrunning your bio force that cannot be supported by siege tanks anymore. It doesn't really bother me too much, as games rarely progress that far and when they do, I'd usually feel behind as terran regardless of whether they go brood-infestor or make the brood --> ultra transition. 1800+ masters EU | ||
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Pinna
Finland152 Posts
The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only 6 snipes to kill broodlord and 12 to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy. And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases. + Show Spoiler [Thanking dude below me] + E: Thanks dude below me (forgot you're name), fixed snipe numbers | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On July 05 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote: The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only like 3-4 snipes to kill broodlord and maybe 1 more to kill ultralisk. 6 snipes to kill a BL (due to regen), 12 snipes to kill an Ultralisk. | ||
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Swad1000
United States366 Posts
Bomber never made ravens. Hunter Seeker missle is quite good versus clumped up groups of low health units (range is a problem in fungal vs seeker). Never made cloak banshees to harass with and only dropped like 3 nukes the whole game. His play was terrible against infestors. Late game terran needs to be creative and do more harass. | ||
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zawk9
United States427 Posts
He didn't drop him at all. Really seemed like the lag was getting to him. I do agree with the OP though.. the Infestor is probably the best unit in the game. It still has serious weaknesses that the Terran can exploit though. The larvae mechanic gives zerg a nearly unbeatable advantage in the lategame regardless of how good Infestors are. My advice to Terran players having trouble with the composition would be to not let the game get to that point. Even if that means you have to throw down two barracks on 11 supply. | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
On July 05 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote: Infestor/sling/(tier3) is like what mech was some time ago. It seems to be imbalanced, but when you learn to adjust to play against it (ghosts), you will be able to counter it as just "another strategy". The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only like 3-4 snipes to kill broodlord and maybe 1 more to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy. And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases. On July 05 2011 05:49 Eleaven wrote: Ghosts are super effective. 2 snipes = dead infestor 1 money emp = 3-5 infestors neutered for the duration of the battle. The standard response to "u only won cos infestor op" should be "spread your units and get ghosts" Okay let's just get this straight. It takes 3 snipes, not 2, to kill an infestor. It takes 6 snipes, not 3-4, to kill a broodlord. It takes 12, and sure as fucking hell not 4-5, to kill an ultralisk. | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On July 05 2011 05:53 EmilA wrote: Absolutely not worth a post. I don't know if this discussion can possibly be fruitful on TL. The Zerg bias is strong in this place ^^) I don't really know what to think about infestors - they're perfectly fine as an alternative to mutalisks (infestor-ling-bling is about even with muta-ling-blling) but the brood-infestor combo feels nearly unbeatable. Most of these discussions just end up with Zerg players yelling "adapt and get ghosts", while it isn't really as simple. It's incredibly hard to EMP all the infestors and snipe all the broodlords without lings+broodlings overrunning your bio force that cannot be supported by siege tanks anymore. It doesn't really bother me too much, as games rarely progress that far and when they do, I'd usually feel behind as terran regardless of whether they go brood-infestor or make the brood --> ultra transition. 1800+ masters EU I don't think any zerg players would say that controlling ghosts is easy, most just say that it's necessary | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
I find that the people who really shut down Infestor play are the people who do the following: 1. They spread out their units, and always appear to make an effort to do so. 2. They can control multiple hot-key groups of the same unit type to spread large groups efficiently. 3. They focus fire Infestors at range with appropriate units. When people do this, and when more people respect Infestors to the point where they follow suit, I think everyone will see how hard Infestors can be shut down. They are a great unit, but with no energy, or low-bulk fungals, they are extremely inefficient. The people I see crying about Infestors most often are the Terrans who mass a heap of bio, throw it in one control group and expect it to kill everything without micro. I've seen pro players shut down Infestor so hard it's painful to watch; but I've also seen pro players use Infestors incredibly well. All comes down to how you deal with the unit. The points above are a good start in my opinion. EDIT: I feel I should also point out how freaking hard it is for a Zerg to support mass Infestor and mass Brood Lord. Yes, it's strong but it's difficult to achieve. | ||
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
On July 05 2011 05:58 Swad1000 wrote: Players just need time to adapt if this becomes the zerg standard. Terrans will just have to spread units more and harass the hell out of zerg. Bomber never made ravens. Hunter Seeker missle is quite good versus clumped up groups of low health units (range is a problem in fungal vs seeker). Never made cloak banshees to harass with and only dropped like 3 nukes the whole game. His play was terrible against infestors. Late game terran needs to be creative and do more harass. You don't play Terran do you? | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
I think it would be cool if it was a projectile, then you could dodge it. I think they tried that in some PTR, I don't recall why they switched it back, everyone was complaining it was too weak or something. They could buff it's duration (with same DPS,) to balance that out I guess. Strategy-wise, maybe Terrans should start using ravens against them. I think autoturrets would be pretty effective because it would be a waste to fungal an autoturret, considering they can't move anyway and die on their own. HSM is underused in general and might be pretty good at killing infestors (idk how much damage it does.) | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
HOWEVER in ZvT I don't use ling/infestor due to blue flame hellions. Even if you add in carapace upgrades the blue flames just utterly destroy you and you can't do much until you get fungal and in that time you can lose a lot of drones and lings. ZvT i've been opting more for roach/baneling drops against the more common marine/tank but I will go roach/infestor if they decide to go heavy mech. The problem is that drop play is SO effective against mass zerg ground which is why I've been implementing mutalisks instead of infestors and I just don't find infestors cost efficient when dealing with drops. Late game I always go broodlord/infestor because, it's just the best. There is NOTHING else zerg has late game that can stop 200/200 armies, without these two units being the way they are, ZvT/ZvP would simply be unfair. Also I ran into a very interesting strategy the other day, I was able to crush it but it got me thinking. My terran opponent went for late game 3/0 (armor upgrades) mass thor. The point was that the mass armor upgrades on thors make it EXTREMELY difficult to fight with roaches and even if you NP them, the amount of armor they have makes it very difficult for the NP thor to kill other thors. Also you use your barracks for mostly ghosts to counter infestors which are the ONLY counter to thors in the mid-game (sorry but roaches don't cut it against thors with maxed armor upgrades). This thor/ghost style was very cute but also interesting, it seemed like it would beat any unit composition if you weren't prepared for it. I played him in a bo3, the first game I won and he did a normal marine/tank but on game 2 he surprised me with the strat and beat me. Game 3 I scouted the mass factories and the armory and did overseer contaminate harass while building a large roach/infestor army with NP. I was able to take the bo3 but only because I did such a great job of denying his 3rd base and I knew if he had a 3rd I'd probably be dead. I think terrans need to get innovative like this if they wish to succeed against zergs who have been trying to be innovative since beta. | ||
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