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I just find it hilarious how the Infestor was buffed to help Zerg out against Protoss deathballs; however, it turned out to be a lot more significant in ZvT and ZvZ, while Zergs found other ways to win in ZvP. Another funny thing is the fact that the "buff" actually made Infestors weaker against Blink Stalkers, which is all kinds of hilarious, considering Zergs are dying to Blink pushes left and right. Oh Blizzard, your balancing efforts will never cease to amuse.
To be honest, I liked the old Fungal more. I feel like it allowed for more interesting gameplay and skillfull execution, as opposed to the current "F-click for massive damage".
In the end though, I do want Zerg to be overpowered, I want Zerg players to dominate more skilled opponents of other races, just because they play Zerg. It really needs to happen, so that the Zerg players can get over their retarded superiority complex, and so we don't have to suffer through 30 pages of whining in an LR thread whenever Idra or Nestea lose.
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People just QQ because they lose games. But really they're just to lazy or stupid to rethink their strats. For example, In ZvP, infestors are dominant against typical colossus death ball but Protoss players still insist on ramming their heads against a wall with that build against infestors. The answers are usually very obvious. But players are waaay too stubborn. Instead of changing their play to fit the situation, they call it imbalanced. And that is the worst part of this whole community.
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On July 05 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote:Infestor/sling/(tier3) is like what mech was some time ago. It seems to be imbalanced, but when you learn to adjust to play against it (ghosts), you will be able to counter it as just "another strategy". The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only 6 snipes to kill broodlord and 12 to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy. And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases. + Show Spoiler [Thanking dude below me] +E: Thanks dude below me (forgot you're name), fixed snipe numbers
Actually what solved mech was Zerg players crying so it got nerfed multiple times.
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If there's one thing that the starcraft community needs to learn is when something is OP or hard to deal with. For months ZvP felt impossible while zerg was ONLY going roach/hydra/corrupter. As soon as zergs began using bane drops, infestors, mutas, etc... the match up swung in favor of zerg.
These are developments in the metagame that will happen throughout the history of SC2. Players need to stop blaming "imbalance" and begin looking beyond the obvious to deal with problems.
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My teammates start to playing like this and i started to encounter it in ladder the way i think to beat it is with fast upgrades and Marine Medivac All-around.With faster upgrades you can battle zergling/baneling in the early/mid game easyer and in the late game in tranistion in to mech 5 factories when those infestors start to mass i transition to mech cuz my multitask isn't so great like MMA or Bombers to stick with MMM whole game.
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On July 05 2011 06:30 Imres wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 06:26 xbankx wrote:
There is no way for terran to beat infestor/broodlord unless terran has a huge advantage over zerg already(like 80 supply versus a maax 200 food) or zerg making a mistake. Same with toss, the only time I seen toss beat this is when zerg leave their broodlords unprotect if zergs start learning that if they put roahces orlings under the broods then there is no way toss can beat this either.
Ghost is decent, but you need a lot of them which means a lot of techlab barracsk which is not viable in standard TvZ.. Snipe is questionable at best you need like 5-6 snipes to kill a single broodlord and I think 2-3 to kill a infestor and if they get fungaled you just plain lose...
You know the game is broken if you can only way if your opponenets plays wrong and there is nothing you can do about it. on big maps this comp can be handled, just kill his expo/tech /w drops. It's hard to do, but your opponent have a tough time too, and psychologically being ou multitasked is hard to deal with. The problem is on a map like metalo, where the Z just sit on his gold... Then i feel like a mech/ghost could be a good response, but it suppose to go mech first hand, and it's quite silly sometimes, and most T players (myself inculding) have like 0 xp of mech...
mech is terrible. Broods already counter most mech and infestor+neutral parasite is just there to stick in in your face.
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Drop play is the counter to infestors and infestor/BL. Just aggressively dropping everywhere (and making sure to split your marines when they come out of the medivac) means that he has to leave a good chunk of forces at each base, lest he lose everything. That, ghosts, and split vikings are the counter to infestor+BL, of course, you could always end the game before the Zerg gets 7-8 bases too.
Terrans are still winning everything in GSL and foreign, so I don't think it's time to start whining about imbalance yet.
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On July 05 2011 06:35 Severus_ wrote:
My teammates start to playing like this and i started to encounter it in ladder the way i think to beat it is with fast upgrades and Marine Medivac All-around.With faster upgrades you can battle zergling/baneling in the early/mid game easyer and in the late game in tranistion in to mech 5 factories when those infestors start to mass i transition to mech cuz my multitask isn't so great like MMA or Bombers to stick with MMM whole game.
Bomber and MMA don't play MMM in tvz. They use a common tank/marine/medivac comp, or just marines for bomber :D
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All I know is that I like infestors and that they're cool 
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On July 05 2011 06:35 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 06:30 Imres wrote:On July 05 2011 06:26 xbankx wrote:
There is no way for terran to beat infestor/broodlord unless terran has a huge advantage over zerg already(like 80 supply versus a maax 200 food) or zerg making a mistake. Same with toss, the only time I seen toss beat this is when zerg leave their broodlords unprotect if zergs start learning that if they put roahces orlings under the broods then there is no way toss can beat this either.
Ghost is decent, but you need a lot of them which means a lot of techlab barracsk which is not viable in standard TvZ.. Snipe is questionable at best you need like 5-6 snipes to kill a single broodlord and I think 2-3 to kill a infestor and if they get fungaled you just plain lose...
You know the game is broken if you can only way if your opponenets plays wrong and there is nothing you can do about it. on big maps this comp can be handled, just kill his expo/tech /w drops. It's hard to do, but your opponent have a tough time too, and psychologically being ou multitasked is hard to deal with. The problem is on a map like metalo, where the Z just sit on his gold... Then i feel like a mech/ghost could be a good response, but it suppose to go mech first hand, and it's quite silly sometimes, and most T players (myself inculding) have like 0 xp of mech... mech is terrible. Broods already counter most mech and infestor+neutral parasite is just there to stick in in your face.
thor/hellion /w good upgrades are ok vs blords. and i say adding ghost in your mech army. The problem is that you can't afford to trade because there is 50 roaches in your base one minute later T_T.
But it's definitely viable atm, cause almost all Z players have 0 xp vs mech too :D so you can do weird all ins/or just good timing attacks (i'm pretty sure that attacking while the Z is teching to hive on a 3b mech play is good)
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The infestor is indeed a strong and versatile unit, but I think that all the splash units from every race have been considered OP at various times. This is mostly a result of unit pathing and clumping.
In regards to the bomber/destiny match, in the first gsme bomber wasn't expecting mass infestor - he had ghosts and vikings ready for brood lords instead. As a result, he didn't have quite enough ghosts to EMP all the infestors, but how often do you see 20+ infestors? So I would say that destiny's funky build probably threw him off quite a bit in that match.
I think that for terrans to beat mass infestor, and infestor/broodlord, they need to be hitting the zerg in multiple locations at once. Just as a tank/marine/medivac army is difficult to take head on using a mutalisk army, the infestor/brood lord army is difficult to take on using the tank/marine army. One key difference is that while tanks or collosus deal their massive long range splash automatically, infestors need to cast their spells manually. I've had games where I was distracted by a drop, then lost 5+ infestors as my opponent moved his army up. I think cloak banshees might be good, they can do a lot of damage and are troublesome to take down using infestors. I wonder if reapers might be useful, they are mobile and excel vs light and buildings. Ravens are another possibility, auto-turrets are pretty decent renewable resource, hunter seeker can be distracting/powerful if combined with multiple attacks, and burrow shenanigans can be reduced with the vision.
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On July 05 2011 06:36 Skwid1g wrote:
Drop play is the counter to infestors and infestor/BL. Just aggressively dropping everywhere (and making sure to split your marines when they come out of the medivac) means that he has to leave a good chunk of forces at each base, lest he lose everything. That, ghosts, and split vikings are the counter to infestor+BL, of course, you could always end the game before the Zerg gets 7-8 bases too.
Terrans are still winning everything foreign and abroad, so I don't think it's time to start whining about imbalance yet.
Yea if it is truely 7-8 bases then it wouldnt matter because like you said don't let game get there. that is reasonable. But I seen zerg player go off this off 3 bases which is wrong. Drop play is fine but if zerg is already super damage but noramlly he should have a bunch of lings due to all the excess minerals and should clear up drops with easy. Corruptors can also make it so that everytime terran drops, your dropship won't get away.
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well basically, and yes I know nobody wants to hear it this way, Infestor are totally OP atm in COMBINATION with Broodlords (which is the "real" OP unit here, dps is simply too high). Hope it will be changing with the next patch..I really do.
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I feel that you have to respect infestors the same way you are forced to respect siege tanks and colossus/ff. If I walk a ball of units into a siege tank line, they will all die.
In ZvZ we are still faced with mass infestors in pretty much every macro game, and you can beat them with runbys and drops to spread them out, and flanks to waste energy and gain extra area.
or as many players do, just make more infestors than the other guy, but that's a pretty unstable way of doing it.
imba? I don't know. Definitely powerful. To me it feels like an almost exact role reversal of when zerg just could not beat protoss with roach hydra because of forcefield and the matchup felt impossible.
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I like how many zergs is just like "just make alot of ghosts and snipe/emp!!". First of all, you need every single drop of gas for medivacs, tanks and upgrades first of all. And to mass ghosts you need to make a bunch of tech labs and that will cost you money, more gas and alot of production time from your barracks. As you know, we can't just mass units by pressing S > unit hotkey.
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okay this may be a bit terran biased but thats because i play terran and i have no idea what the state of PvZ so i cant speak for P too but..
when i think of a unit that
rapes light,
does huge dps vs armoured
can reveal clocked units
moves pretty damn quickly for a caster
can mind control my shit from a relatively safe distance including the so called hard counters
can spam 0 supply higher dps marines that rape expos
move underground really quickly
i think to myself wtf should i build to counter this?
yes they can be countered with ghosts. but in my own experience i very rarely can get then close enough to do much damage without running into the inevitable swarm of lings/blings that stand between infestors. its easy to say make ghosts but another thing to put it into practice for the average player with below pro standard micro. on top of that, spend a shit load of gas to get the sufficient number of them to make any difference at the sacrifice of tanks/ upgrades / medivacs. saying make ghosts im sorry to say is pure theorycraft imho
im sorry but i dont see how i should spread my shit, in case of banelings + fungal, while microing my ghosts to snipe/emp while placing my tanks in the right place while i siege at the right time while while i then stim and micro marines all at once while my opponent a+moves bling and lings selects infestors and spams the spell relevant to the situation.
the truth is, its easy to say "look at what jinro did at mlg, just do that." but its unrealistic.
my honest opinion is that of all the casters, the infestor is far more cost efficient. It is an excellent addition to any zerg composition and a good damage dealer against all units of all races, it has virtually zero risk factor imho. you have nothing to lose by building them. if i make ghosts for example in a tvz, i make them to counter mainly infestors or to something more cost efficient than ghosts. if a zerg makes infestors in a tvz its basically to have as a good all round unit to do well against basically everything i can throw at it. neural parasite makes having t3 units a gamble late game, because the best best dps dealers will be targeted to add to the zergs t3 dps.
is it impossible to win against them? by all means no. but ive found that you have to be way more alert and focused and make less mistakes. send in cloaked ghosts to snipe infestors wherever he has no detection, harass (though zergs have learned to keep an infestor attheir base to justfungal drops) while keeping better econo and production. Its really tough going into late game with infestors mixed in to any zerg composition for terran to keep up. Well for me anyway
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On July 05 2011 05:36 Probe1 wrote:What's so terrible about having to make ghosts? I see a lot of successful infestor play and a lot of terrible responses to it. Fungal is as good of a spell as storm is and infested terrans are only as useful as the situation. If you complain about having 4 infestors dump Infested Terrans into your mineral line, maybe you should consider building a missile turret and a PF. The most common response I hear when late game DT or drop play is utilized against zerg is "Stop being so greedy and build a spore and spine at your expos". Terran can do the same. Better, in fact- PFs and Missile Turrets are freaking awesome. Terran just needs to rethink what to respond to mass infestor with. Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 05:32 Noocta wrote:
Caster are OP, all of them.
That's why the game is good.
People need to stop think about that. I can't imagine what people would say if we still had Defilers, old Templar or Science Vessel. -_- Can you imagine plague on 40 marines at once? ooh deeear god yes.
I prefer eating a plague instead of a fungal growth. What Blizzard basicly did was to mix plague with ensnare and buff it a bit. IMO units should either be able to move when being fungaled (only they move slower) or they should be brought down to 1 hp.
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You see, although nearly every single zerg on here say that Ghosts are the obvious counter to infestors and tier 3 play, their cost is rather absurd to have to sacrifice so many marines/tanks for, not to mention any medivacs that need to heal the damage that the infestors whom still have energy, wrought.
All in all, getting ghosts and using them well is a risky effort IMO because it is not hard to just be overrun by zerglings due to your reduced army count. I think 3 bases is a bare minimum for using ghosts at all in this matchup just because of their cost.
~1500 master
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i don't know, the buff made PvZ at least alot more interesting and i as a protoss now actually have a second zerg unit im scared next to the broodlord
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Bomber was too passive in that game, he should of dropped way more before spine crawlers came up.
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EPT
