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On June 08 2011 10:49 Geniuszerg wrote:
ugh.. i hate how you had the y-axis limited in the scope, it really puts a bias in the graph to make a point, example is the ZvT graph, it looks as though T>Z dramtically for the majority of the time
I can assure you it's not to "make a point", but rather to make the charts readable. With 0-100% on the y-axis it's very hard to see the data points in any meaningful way. It's certainly something people should be aware of though.
As you may notice I am very careful to not draw any conclusions from these visualizations in the OP. They are a good base for discussion, and they can definitely help us rule out certain things, but we should be very careful about inventing scenarios that "fit the data".
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I can agree that buffing stalkers is a boring way to do it, as they are "allpurpose" units. I dont know how carriers do vs mutas, but i dont think it can be expected that protoss shall tech to carriers to deal with mutas, especially since corruptors eat carriers.
Perhaps cannons could be made to do air-splash or increased air range or something. Compared to turrets cannons are not good enough vs air, and if u compare the hazard of required pylons to the luxury of being able to repair turrets, its even worse.
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Hmm. Just as note for future statistical graphs, it would be really really cool if you include major patch changes in. Like a line showing when certain patches came out.
Also, anyone notice how Terran has been >50% the entire time? (terran still op'd, hehehe, jkjk).
If anything, graphs like these merely show trends in style. The games are still fairly young, maybe 5 years from now, graphs like these will be able to actually lead us to some conclusions aside from (zergs are changing zvp matchup styles)
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Its just sad , how the race with the most uncreative people is on the peak of that graph.
Seriously... not. The only thing you need to know as a terran is if the Zerg is doing:
a) FE... so you just Bunker Harass --> Hellion --> Banshee --> MMM or Mech or Tank Marine timing push
b) Pool First then Expo... wich leads into a simple timing push (choose one)
c) Pool First... wich means he's going to die cause you can stop any rush with 1/2 bunkers inBase
That's all the science behind terran early scouting... the zerg in other hand... have 1 overlord witch is easily killable by 1/2 marines to deny scout.
But that's just fine... I actually don't complain. I know Blizzard now do games for casuals and dumb ppl... who have to play with advantage over others... and Terran is just fine for that.
This race deserves to be nerfed so hard, so smart terrans can actually start playing it right and idiot terrans just drop 2 or 3 leagues under their current ones.
This is the stupidest sub-community of sc2 players, with the lowest understanding of the game and APM as a whole. And yet they win the most games. Thats just ... idiotic.
User was temp banned for this post.
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While I share your rage sentiments EXACTLY, I'd rather not see them here Hristiyan. Time and a place.
Edit: Good news though, its so easy to kick our teeth in with the timing attack that you don't need to scout! [/sarcasm]
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My apologies, i got cheesed 3 times in a row right now vs terrans, which totally don't deserve to be in master league and i just needed to channel it somewhere. I'm sorry, wont happen again.
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Believe me, I understand to the point that I'm going to shut up and post somewhere else before I say something much, much worse.
close..
positi
RUN AWAY
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Terran player: yeah meng the games balanced don't change it, lol
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Its not that at all. Terran isn't imba. We (Zerg below professional level) haven't figured out how to deal with the marine menace yet. It can be frustrating.
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If i could ladder PvT for the rest of this patch i would die in heaven. PvT is starcraft at its finest
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On June 08 2011 18:51 Hristiyan wrote:Its just sad , how the race with the most uncreative people is on the peak of that graph. Show nested quote +Seriously... not. The only thing you need to know as a terran is if the Zerg is doing:
a) FE... so you just Bunker Harass --> Hellion --> Banshee --> MMM or Mech or Tank Marine timing push
b) Pool First then Expo... wich leads into a simple timing push (choose one)
c) Pool First... wich means he's going to die cause you can stop any rush with 1/2 bunkers inBase
That's all the science behind terran early scouting... the zerg in other hand... have 1 overlord witch is easily killable by 1/2 marines to deny scout.
But that's just fine... I actually don't complain. I know Blizzard now do games for casuals and dumb ppl... who have to play with advantage over others... and Terran is just fine for that. This race deserves to be nerfed so hard, so smart terrans can actually start playing it right and idiot terrans just drop 2 or 3 leagues under their current ones. This is the stupidest sub-community of sc2 players, with the lowest understanding of the game and APM as a whole. And yet they win the most games. Thats just ... idiotic.
You seriously need to shut up. 10 of your 40ish posts are in this thread and they are all balance whine related. This thread is about win percentages, not how zerg has problems against terrans or how terrans are retards (idiotic statement).
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On June 08 2011 18:41 wei2coolman wrote:
Hmm. Just as note for future statistical graphs, it would be really really cool if you include major patch changes in. Like a line showing when certain patches came out.
Would love to see this added, but my god... It looks like we're about to witness the fall of Terran and the rise of Zerg if the pattern continues.
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On June 08 2011 01:33 Dente wrote:
TvZ feels really hard for T, but that could be me ofcourse. Especially infestor + ling into infestor + hive (broodlord / ultra) is just crazy to hold, and I dear to say that zerg can fight terran on even bases with infestors.
The funny thing is that most zergs don't know this! Look at losira, julyzerg and idra: they still go muta baneling ling. This composition is really 2 times easier to beat then infestor compositions.
Dude, learn to play Zerg before you say things like this.If you don't go mutalisks you can't leave your base without getting dropped, and if he decides to turtle with tanks you can't attack him either. Once you get enough mutas you can take out turrets, and therefor attack the Terran, taking out SCV's and buildings. If you go infestors and ground units, you are weaker vs medivacs and weaker vs tanks.
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Just a small suggestion - I think it would be a pretty good idea to mark times on the x-axis when patches are inserted, because then we can see if variations occurred due to chance or if a patch had a significant enough effect on the metagame to change the stats.
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It may have already been pointed out but TvZ looks like a shark 
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I wonder how many terran, protoss and zerg players are represented respectively. If there are more Terran players for example it may skew the outcome...
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Awesome info. Just awesome
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If Protoss is shark mode why does TvZ graph look like shark?
Philosoraptor joke aside (Sorry)
I'd like to see exactly what Aetherial pointed out. For a while it seemed like (at least by the leaderboards) there were many more Terrans than P or Z and small supplemental data packs accompanying graphs make me happy.
sc2ranks has this data on the race percentages in grandmasters
P 34.4% (633) T 31.2% (573) Z 30.9% (568)
Its a weak analogy to what is being discussed but without knowing exactly who the players used for the original graphs were I'm hesitant to go any further.
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On June 08 2011 21:06 Aetherial wrote:
I wonder how many terran, protoss and zerg players are represented respectively. If there are more Terran players for example it may skew the outcome...
It actually may not. Because the TvT matchup is not listed there. And everytime a T player plays another race 50% of the players are terran, No more no less. However there may be more TvZ and TvP games played than ZvP. But the precentage should still lean towards 50%.
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On June 08 2011 12:19 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 09:50 Raid wrote:On June 08 2011 09:18 Drowsy wrote:
Terran wins at high rates and people complain a bit. Protoss wins at marginally higher rates than expected and there is uproar and amulet gets nerfed. What will be the community's reaction when zerg pulls ahead of terran?
To be honest though I think I can live with this level of balance. This is more even than it had been in several different time periods of brood war's history and we're barely past release. I think blizz has done a pretty damn fine job (except PvP 4-gate) It was a much needed nerf. If you re-watched the games back in the day before amulet nerf you will rofl at ridiculously long the games were because terran had no way to kill protoss efficiently and protoss with mass ht can't really kill buildings because what are storms gonna do to buildings? Now with archon buff it would have definitely been imba if toss just morphed archons and roflstomped after blanketing warp in storms. All I can say is at least you can still use HT, Reaper was basically removed from the game.. After reconsidering, I think you're right. A lot of the reason the matchup stats weren't skewed even with amulet in the game was because few of the tosses actually used the "squirtle" or "refugee toss" style. I think if it would have been a bigger part of the metagame pvt would have been heavily p favored. And yeah, they did over-react on reapers a little bit lol.
hells no... the amulet was so OP >.> it was like instant fungal from infestors without cool-down
how is it fair to spam storm?
if they bring back the amulet, toss would be so badass
and by the way, the reaper was indeed very good...it was like having an air unit early in the game..it was a definite must-have (almost like mutalisks for zerg)
dude if reapers were allowed super fast... 3v3s would be even more skewed...it wouldn't be marine medivac lings...it would be mass reapers...
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EPT
