EPTGomTV caster: "Growth of e-sports" - Page 30
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Genovi
Sweden388 Posts
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
I think the main issue is that going to Korea really isolate you from the foreign scene (partly because of the cross-server lag too), a scene that is doing well at the moment (a LOT of tournaments happening everywhere). Given this fact, plus a lot of other circumstances, going to Korea is less tempting for a lot of players, which is completely understandable. I think a lot of players would be more tempted to go to Korea if Blizzard somehow fixes the cross-server lag issue, but I don't see this happening. | ||
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ct2299
380 Posts
On May 30 2011 04:19 TraffikBar wrote: Look at Yao Ming (I am Chinese). Yao Ming wasn't even that great of a player I'm sorry I don't want to sidetrack this but... what.... Yao Ming not even that great of a player? The guy averaged 20 points and 10 rebounds AND an amazing FT% as well meaning he can get to the line and score points. It's only because he was injury plagued that his career didn't gain nearly as much momentum as it could have. Don't understate a great player like that. | ||
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frosecold
Venezuela76 Posts
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mholden02
387 Posts
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward. Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world..... What's not to love? This is simply not accurate. Going to Korea to play does not offer much appeal financially anymore, so whats the incentive? Move away from friends and family, the culture you've grown up in to get less exposure, make less money, and be limited in your starcraft choices? Its a lose, lose, lose. Idra was there, code 'S', challenging for championships and saw there was more opportunity elsewhere. Liquid Tyler said the same thing last SOTG, why go when there's as much opportunity and more exposure here? Not that there's nothing to be gained from going. Clearly you can hone your skills faster while emersed in the Korean starcraft culture, learn to practice with Koreans and their vaunted work ethic, compete against the best ect.... But the foreign scene is growing fast, and many Foreigners are already playing on Korean Ladder and getting a lot of Korean exposure. The simple fact is Korean starcraft is built for Koreans. The tournaments are weeks long so only applicable to residents, not short visits. GSL is the only game in Korea for Pro's. Foreigners can play anywhere, anytime. From Sweden, to Canada, to the US. The tournaments are short or online, built to accommodate short visits from foreign players. Quite frankly, the foreign scene is superior. Offering more choices, more exposure, more control and more money. I would not be at all surprised to see Koreans leaving Korea and playing globally in the future. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - That said its much appreciated that GOM is doing what it can to accommodate the foreign scene. Fans want to see Koreans face off with the best foreigners, want to see foreigners in GSL and Koreans showing up outside Korea. The more synergy between both sides the better. If somehow there could be foreign teams in the GSTL, that would be awesome. And the foreign scene appreciates all GOM is doing to help out. | ||
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Spectorials
558 Posts
As a side note, is GomTV able to provide a better stream / stream quality? I feel that this is single handedly the worst aspect of viewing GSL competitions. (Poor quality, unreliable) I feel that an improvement in this and more foreigners participating (one of your solutions sounds great) will greatly improve the longevity of your competitions. | ||
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ThreeAcross
172 Posts
On May 30 2011 15:21 Spectorials wrote: Thankyou for taking the time to post and express your opinion. As a side note, is GomTV able to provide a better stream / stream quality? I feel that this is single handedly the worst aspect of viewing GSL competitions. (Poor quality, unreliable) I feel that an improvement in this and more foreigners participating (one of your solutions sounds great) will greatly improve the longevity of your competitions. I have never had issues with their streaming. Always HQ and stream perfect. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On May 30 2011 15:08 mholden02 wrote: Quite frankly, the foreign scene is superior. Offering more choices, more exposure, more control and more money. I would not be at all surprised to see Koreans leaving Korea and playing globally in the future. Any concrete reasoning behind that paragraph? | ||
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
On May 30 2011 15:08 mholden02 wrote: This is simply not accurate. Going to Korea to play does not offer much appeal financially anymore, so whats the incentive? Move away from friends and family, the culture you've grown up in to get less exposure, make less money, and be limited in your starcraft choices? Its a lose, lose, lose. Idra was there, code 'S', challenging for championships and saw there was more opportunity elsewhere. Liquid Tyler said the same thing last SOTG, why go when there's as much opportunity and more exposure here? Not that there's nothing to be gained from going. Clearly you can hone your skills faster while emersed in the Korean starcraft culture, learn to practice with Koreans and their vaunted work ethic, compete against the best ect.... But the foreign scene is growing fast, and many Foreigners are already playing on Korean Ladder and getting a lot of Korean exposure. The simple fact is Korean starcraft is built for Koreans. The tournaments are weeks long so only applicable to residents, not short visits. GSL is the only game in Korea for Pro's. Foreigners can play anywhere, anytime. From Sweden, to Canada, to the US. The tournaments are short or online, built to accommodate short visits from foreign players. Quite frankly, the foreign scene is superior. Offering more choices, more exposure, more control and more money. I would not be at all surprised to see Koreans leaving Korea and playing globally in the future. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - That said its much appreciated that GOM is doing what it can to accommodate the foreign scene. Fans want to see Koreans face off with the best foreigners, want to see foreigners in GSL and Koreans showing up outside Korea. The more synergy between both sides the better. If somehow there could be foreign teams in the GSTL, that would be awesome. And the foreign scene appreciates all GOM is doing to help out. You do supress the fact that evaluation is a highly subjective matter. Second, any evaluation must hold up onto some kind of set scale, or goal. This "goal" can be defined by every person differently. Your statements are true only if one would define his goal as "making the most money with least effort in short term". | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On May 30 2011 15:08 mholden02 wrote: This is simply not accurate. Going to Korea to play does not offer much appeal financially anymore, so whats the incentive? Move away from friends and family, the culture you've grown up in to get less exposure, make less money, and be limited in your starcraft choices? Its a lose, lose, lose. Idra was there, code 'S', challenging for championships and saw there was more opportunity elsewhere. Liquid Tyler said the same thing last SOTG, why go when there's as much opportunity and more exposure here? Not that there's nothing to be gained from going. Clearly you can hone your skills faster while emersed in the Korean starcraft culture, learn to practice with Koreans and their vaunted work ethic, compete against the best ect.... But the foreign scene is growing fast, and many Foreigners are already playing on Korean Ladder and getting a lot of Korean exposure. The simple fact is Korean starcraft is built for Koreans. The tournaments are weeks long so only applicable to residents, not short visits. GSL is the only game in Korea for Pro's. Foreigners can play anywhere, anytime. From Sweden, to Canada, to the US. The tournaments are short or online, built to accommodate short visits from foreign players. Quite frankly, the foreign scene is superior. Offering more choices, more exposure, more control and more money. I would not be at all surprised to see Koreans leaving Korea and playing globally in the future. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - That said its much appreciated that GOM is doing what it can to accommodate the foreign scene. Fans want to see Koreans face off with the best foreigners, want to see foreigners in GSL and Koreans showing up outside Korea. The more synergy between both sides the better. If somehow there could be foreign teams in the GSTL, that would be awesome. And the foreign scene appreciates all GOM is doing to help out. Go ahead and explain to me how the foreign scene is superior in any way. | ||
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Namu
United States826 Posts
On May 30 2011 15:52 rysecake wrote: Go ahead and explain to me how the foreign scene is superior in any way. think his definition and your definition of superior are different. he's saying it's superior cause it has just as much financial benefits. however, I don't think its superior at all lol... in terms of player quality, production quality, viewer count... can't think of any criterion where foreign leagues are superior. | ||
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Spectorials
558 Posts
On May 30 2011 15:27 TreeDome wrote: I have never had issues with their streaming. Always HQ and stream perfect. That is indeed fantastic for you, I do not, however, pay for season tickets anymore (alongside MANY other people) because the stream randomly dies / lags / whatever. Also the HQ stream could barely be considered HQ  | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10811 Posts
On May 30 2011 15:55 Namu wrote: think his definition and your definition of superior are different. he's saying it's superior cause it has just as much financial benefits. however, I don't think its superior at all lol... in terms of player quality, production quality, viewer count... can't think of any criterion where foreign leagues are superior. For a foreign player the foreign scene is "better". What makes the GSL interesting for a "foreigner": 1. Most competetive. 2. Biggest price for winning. What makes the GSL/Korea unattractive for a "foreigner": 1. It excludes you from most foreign events or at least puts you at a disadvantage in these (Korea <-> US/EU Lag). 2. The tournament format is very "unfrogiving", you lose in the first round to some "random all-in  "... Go home again, hope you did some sight seeing  .3. Training ISN'T superior when you don't speak korean, it's probably worse. Why do/did people form "team-houses"? Because talking about the game is important, living in a teamhouse were you can't speak in debt with most people won't do you much good. Living in a Teamhouse with foreigners in Korea is the same as living in a "Team-House" anywhere else. The GSL itself is in no way at "fault" for that (well, you could discuss about their format but thats another story), it's just that the big first place price is not enough to really draw in all the top foreigners while excluding them from tons of other tourneys. The cultures and language-barrier does not matter much in the end, but it makes Korea also a little less attractive. | ||
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Feb
98 Posts
i kinda liken pro-gamers to professional golf and tennis players. for both sports there are four major tournaments a year and several smaller contests. the top ten players for both sports pretty much only play these major tournaments as they pay a ton of money and offer a ton of endorsements, but if you're ranked 50, or really anything in the top 200, even going lower with amateur tournaments where winning may earn you a spot/give someone the confidence to declare going pro you still have opportunities to make money. there are two important things to note about the tournament structure for tennis and golf that make this possible: 1) if you're good enough to make it to a certain round in a major (i.e. getting to the 2nd round in tennis or making the cut in golf), it pays extremely well, moreso if you win, and enough smaller tournaments exist so that if you're ranked 50 or even 200 in the world there's a tournament out there you can win and thus afford your lifestyle. the current starcraft scene is not like this especially if you limit the starcraft scene to just korea (which isn't really gom's problem. they run a good high-level tournament, the issue is creating low-level tournaments which is a very long term investment and would help the community overall, but could weaken gom's perception as the highest level of play). in almost every golf and tennis tournament there's a particular point you need to make to get paid (the cuts mentioned earlier). if you don't make this point you get NO money and are responsible for all the expenses getting to and from the tournament and lodging (though many of the better players have lucrative sponsorship deals handling this cost, there are again often incentives for better performance). gom pays players to stay in houses with a considerably less strict view of their performance in tournaments which i think is a mistake. golfers and tennis players travel all over the world almost year round, making an assessment of can i do well enough in this tournament to justify travelling to it. and yeah, this could make starcraft prohibitively more expensive, but the beauty of starcraft is it's an online game. the players don't actually need to be in the same location especially in the early rounds and this can lower the necessary prize pool to make starcraft profitable for pros as well as allow for a higher number of more competitve tournaments across all levels of play. 2) starcraft 2 tournaments take too long. golf and tennis tournaments are settled over the course of a week in most cases (tennis majors being an exception that instead generally last 2 weeks). starcraft 2 tournaments, especially in korea tend to be extremely drawn out. there's really no reason to require players to be there for more than a day per round. yes, most players will be there a few days in advance, but a 32-64 person tournament consists of 5-6 rounds which can easily be played a day per round over the course of a week. if you want to include group play rounds then you can maybe make an argument expanding the tournament to 2 weeks as a 64 person tournament then potentially becomes about 8-10 rounds, and if you wanna insist people be in the same location for later rounds, throw in a few travel days (but these should largely be unnecessary for the bigger tournaments as players will optimistically already be there with smaller tournaments happening simultaneously strictly online and thus not posing a conflict). But a month is imo an unreasonable time commitment when dealing with any game or sport played by individuals in a professional setting, especially a game that isn't particularly physically taxing. To me, these are the biggest problem with gom as why play an extremely difficult tournament that takes a month, prevents me from earning money elsewhere, and only pays significantly in the unlikely event i win, when i can play 4 smaller weekend long tournaments in smaller less competitive and easier markets and where i'm likely to win and easily make significantly more than the 5th place earnings i'd be lucky to get at gom? the risk/reward system of gom is way off and i understand why it's having trouble attracting foreign players. | ||
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shannn
Netherlands2891 Posts
On May 30 2011 15:56 Spectorials wrote: That is indeed fantastic for you, I do not, however, pay for season tickets anymore (alongside MANY other people) because the stream randomly dies / lags / whatever. Also the HQ stream could barely be considered HQ I would agree with you here. The stream is not HQ compared to when you watch the VODs on HQ. It's a huge difference. I however am not paying to watch the stream live anymore just as many others probably are in the same situation as I am that they do not have the time to watch it live due to school or work or any other commitments. | ||
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fant0m
964 Posts
On May 29 2011 17:45 Krehlmar wrote: As I said alot of pages back and people agreed with; The only reason westerners are not going to korea is that they can make more money whilst performing less in the west. I can agree with this post. The truth hurts, but honestly Korea is already pulling away, and it's unnecessary. Man up and get better than them! | ||
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ct2299
380 Posts
On May 30 2011 18:04 fant0m wrote: I can agree with this post. The truth hurts, but honestly Korea is already pulling away, and it's unnecessary. Man up and get better than them! Well there isn't going to be any improvement as long as: a) Korea continues to work/train in a much more rigorous environment than in the West b) Players continue to dodge harder tournaments in favor of easier ones to maximize their earning potential (it's hard to blame them to be honest, it is their livelihood). c) They use poor mathematical reasoning like fams did in the thread he started about Korea needing to pay attention to the west, by saying the potential that gamers are giving up by going to GSL is $19,000 based on TL roundup (as if any progamer has one more then 3-4 of them in a given month.). | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On May 30 2011 15:56 Spectorials wrote: That is indeed fantastic for you, I do not, however, pay for season tickets anymore (alongside MANY other people) because the stream randomly dies / lags / whatever. Also the HQ stream could barely be considered HQ I've watched the stream from at least 4 different providers in sweden and it was flawless in every one of them. I guess streaming will never be perfect. I rarely watch the stream seriously though cause i have work, VODs are where it's at, and you gotta buy a season ticket for those anyway. | ||
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Paladia
802 Posts
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Mysti_
France185 Posts
I do understand that we should support esport etc but please keep in mind that not everyone is able to pay 10$ per month when we already pay internet, phone etc... | ||
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