EPTIt's not so much that people are hoping that SC will ever be up there with the pro-sports. But it's the word of mouth spreading that people are still hesitant about due to language issues.
Casting Language Standards - Page 17
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Falling
Canada11368 Posts
It's not so much that people are hoping that SC will ever be up there with the pro-sports. But it's the word of mouth spreading that people are still hesitant about due to language issues. | ||
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RockIronrod
Australia1369 Posts
On May 25 2011 13:10 JWD wrote: Fun and friendly is great, but it comes in all varieties. All I'm saying is that the PG-13 SC broadcasts don't appeal to my non-gamer-type friends, and aren't at all helping me convince those friends that they shouldn't dismiss SC2 fandom as purely for nerdy teenagers. It's just harder to say that SC2 is a legitimate competitive/business enterprise when top SC2 broadcasts involve penis jokes. We are talking about professional Starcraft playing here. It will be dismissed by the closeminded and elderly regardless of swearing, the audience, even among non-gamers, that would tune in wouldn't care about swearing. It's not a high-classed, dignified sport requiring polite golf clapping, quiet somber commentators who speak only in the most rigid of manners, or an air of professionalism. It's a bunch of guys being good at something they do, with a community of fun loving, semi-mature nerds who act like it. If your friends dismiss it as being nerdy teenagers because someone occasionally says "fuck", I doubt they'd stick around once Tastosis started dropping "nerd baller" and guinea pig facts. | ||
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Phenny
Australia1435 Posts
On May 25 2011 13:36 Falling wrote: No, I'm not saying that we necessarily need to start pulling in larger numbers. However, what this thread is bringing out that there are people within our community including mods that would like to share their passion with a few more friends, but would rather not due to the risk juvenile sounding comments coming from the casters. It's not so much that people are hoping that SC will ever be up there with the pro-sports. But it's the word of mouth spreading that people are still hesitant about due to language issues. Yeh I understand now, can't disagree with that. I guess the best solution was whoever said to try and promote keeping the bigger tournament casts to more acceptable language as they're most likely to actually reach out to a wider audience and the social perceptions of gamers will be shown in a more positive light. | ||
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TheThirdMan
Germany1 Post
So, here is my point: If you think your children are intelligent enough that watching StarCraft won't make them believe that using guns, killing people, war in general and all those things that are basically the content of a game of StarCraft from a very naive/non-abstract perspective are good things or at least you think watching this won't hurt them, how in all the world can you mind the usage of any kind of language associated with the very natural act of love?? I know that this is a general issue with America and I especially do respect that I can't tell you how to raise your children, but still I can ask you to think about it... At least in Europe we have the widespread opinion that love and sex in general is something good and violence in general is at least less good. ^^ Basically, what I am saying is: if the child/teenager can know the difference between watching StarCraft and actual violence it might also understand that „f***“ in the context of commentary is just a word people use to emphasize whatever they wanted to say either way. | ||
JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 25 2011 13:43 RockIronrod wrote: We are talking about professional Starcraft playing here. It will be dismissed by the closeminded and elderly regardless of swearing, This attitude is all wrong. I believe SC2 can and should have mass appeal! It may take lots of time sure, but I am hoping that the SC2 scene in the US can be something like what the BW scene is in Korea. And I think a very small step towards that is cleaning up casts a bit. | ||
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PlaGuE_R
France1151 Posts
just my 2 cents | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 25 2011 14:00 PlaGuE_R wrote: to be honest, the issue you bring up only seems to matter in the US. I mean, if you look at the UK, a lot of show after like 10 pm are very mature in content and language, same in France, Australia too. It seems like the American culture is very focused on political correctness, but the rest of the world isn't. just my 2 cents I'm sure there is some truth to this, but there are a lot of countries that have somewhat similar standards/conventions as the US does for TV content (Korea comes to mind). And my point is that I'd love to see SC2 as the type of content that can play to all audiences in prime time, not be relegated to relatively amateur streams or late night TV. I find the allure of SC2 going mainstream more appealing than swearing and dirty jokes. | ||
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A.J.
United States209 Posts
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On May 25 2011 14:06 A.J. wrote: I don't know if I would still watch these casters if it weren't for thier sometimes inappropriate jokes. I mean, I can watch a replay by myself, but for the most part I watch casters and tournaments so that I can enjoy the game and the commentary. Don't get me wrong, I love the game and analyzing it, but I know many of us tune in to many casters because of thier humor and style. but its easy to be funny/entertaining without being innapropraite. pretty sure tastosis never swear, its prob even in their contract, but they are by far the best casters. I think that if E sports, and sc2, want to expand, a certain level of proffesionalism needs to be present in casting, i feel user streams are different, but major tournaments like nasl tsl etc need to have a high level of proffesionalism. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke. God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like. Mmm, this is very close to how I feel. edit: I also wanted to applaud the OP for bringing a good thread in the form of a very valid and pertinent question on the forums on TL, and tell some of you guys that are being a bit aggressive about a simple question, not to mention not even reading the OP, to back off. He wants a warning label, not widespread internet censorship. edit2: If you weren't being aggressive, I want to make it clear, I wasn't pointing that in your direction. | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke. God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like. I can understand(but I don't agree) parents trying to shelter their children from crude language. But protecting your friends? Has it come to the point in the US that even grown ups are chocked and offended by the occasional cuss word? Or are you and your friends really young? | ||
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KDot2
United States1213 Posts
Its up to the individual events to decide what kind of show they want to run and if you dont like it dont watch it. Its as simple as that. | ||
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Falling
Canada11368 Posts
On May 25 2011 14:58 Longshank wrote: I can understand(but I don't agree) parents trying to shelter their children from crude language. But protecting your friends? Has it come to the point in the US that even grown ups are chocked and offended by the occasional cuss word? Or are you and your friends really young? I think you miss the context of gaming at least in the US (and Canada for that matter). The stereotypical gamer is some immature, angry teenager that rages when he loses and talks foul. In a word. Juvenile. So no, it's not a matter of protection except, perhaps to protect the image of Starcraft. These outsiders hardly need another instance to confirm their stereotypes with a couple penis jokes. And would those jokes really be missed that much? | ||
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Angry_Fetus
Canada444 Posts
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algorithm0r
Canada486 Posts
1) Culture differences: The people that are concerned about swearing are in fact a minority of Americans and some Canadians (if this thread is any indication) plus the occasional Brit. But most SC leagues are meant to appeal to a global community and thus this subsection is a very small community compared to the rest who find cursing not very offensive and often amusing (god bless Sweden). I get that some people are not happy about the cursing, but I don't get why this "lowest common denominator" should dictate the types of casts available in any format. America already has way too much protectionism in this theory and practice and I feel culturally we (as people not as SC2 community) should discourage this in favor of personal responsibility. 2) Professionalism: This arguments seems to be strange to me since it assumes that something is only professional if it adheres to the standards of the minority community I discussed above. Certainly in many American professional situations there is much cursing. Bosses use it, employees use it. It is pervasive. So the argument from professionalism seems strange to me. 3) Expansion of E-sports: Why do we assume that for E-sports to be "widely accepted" it must drop the cursing. Some of the most popular movies in recent years contain tons of cursing, sexual innuendo, etc. I would argue it is BECAUSE of this that they are so widely popular because it is pressing against the overly protective culture currently running (or ruining) America. 4) Ratings: I'm not a fan of ratings since they are just a mechanism of censorship (if you don't agree please see "This Film is Not Yet Rated"). But the idea of rating streams and casts is not super offensive to me (certainly not as offensive as a single "Fuck" is to the OP's wife). However, which standards do we apply? The lowest common denominator wouldn't even want words like "damn" in the cast. 5) Responsibility: I know that it takes some "effort" to pre-screen your children's entertainment to see if they meet your standards but no one says you are free from the responsibility of parenting. It is far too common in American society to think that if there is something offensive or threating out there that we should be protected from it by some agency/society/government. This teaches people to have no personal responsibility. Take responsibility for your life, your child's life, and don't expect others to submit to your standards just because they are your standards. Suggestions: The beginning of every cast should display a list of every possible curse word that is possibly offensive with a "check" or "x" to tell us if it appears in that cast. This way everyone will know what to expect. (Note: sarcasm) If your child hears a curse word take the opportunity to explain the complex social issue in using curses in society. | ||
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Falling
Canada11368 Posts
On May 25 2011 15:15 Angry_Fetus wrote: This has definitely been said before, likely even in this thread, but it needs repeating. This game contains brutal violence, and the objective of the game is to slaughter your opponent. What goes through your head when you think mass killings are appropriate for your children to watch, yet hearing the f-bomb is intolerable? What sort of movies do you watch where you would think Starcraft is particularly violent in any sort of intensity? I don't honestly believe you (and all the others that bring up this point) actually think this game is that violent. I think it's a disingenuous argument. The violence in Starcraft although technically violent if played out in a movie is neither intense emotionally nor dramatically. The few biological beings that die are small and most of the killings are mechanical and all of them are fast. I've said it before and I'll say it again. A PG rated movie such as Prince Caspian with absolutely no blood is more intense and more potentially emotionally traumatizing than Starcraft. There are no close ups (I would call the deaths microscopic), no prolonged death scenes, no Saving Private Ryan scenes. There is competitive tension as in who will win in a hockey game. But there is no dramatic tension on whether the main character will survive all the explosions all around them. It's only violent in an abstract sense. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On May 25 2011 15:13 Falling wrote: I think you miss the context of gaming at least in the US (and Canada for that matter). The stereotypical gamer is some immature, angry teenager that rages when he loses and talks foul. In a word. Juvenile. So no, it's not a matter of protection except, perhaps to protect the image of Starcraft. These outsiders hardly need another instance to confirm their stereotypes with a couple penis jokes. And would those jokes really be missed that much? I have no idea what penis jokes you're referring to, I honestly can't think of many jokes that are so crass that they would put anyone I know off, nor do I think there's any vulgarity in casting that shouldn't be too surprising if you consider the basic age expectation of the game. I understand that more people are getting their kids into it, but to that I say, Great... but most casts will be age appropriate to basic T rating, with the little notes on the back. No, casters aren't reading the back of the Starcraft 2 box and making it their code, but that seems to be the general level that's seen and since that's the case, I don't see an issue. I don't want a possibly altered experience because of unnecessary stipulations, most all casters, particularly for major events are appropriate as is, no one is dropping F-bombs every other minute, the most you get is one or two a cast. Everything seems pretty fine as is, as for individual player streams, most use the 18+ thing if I'm not mistaken, but if not, if there's a mic, almost every player will at some point, utter some expletive out of frustration while playing, this is up to an individual to screen and won't always be consistent. If you want a label, just look at the back of the Starcraft 2 box, that's what you should expect from almost all casts and events. Some casts attempt to avoid swearing, but generally some slips through even there, if you want a safe zone for your kids, then I guess some casters could individually put "Family Safe" on their channels if they want, but no event will be 100% clean in that sense, and I'm absolutely fine with that. | ||
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dOofuS
United States342 Posts
On May 25 2011 12:58 Falling wrote: I don't get why people are so against providing more information. At the bare minimum, the op is looking for a label on the cast essentially describing the language content to be expected. aka information. Not censoring your precious swear words. Heaven's knows why it's so important to retain 'fuck' and 'rape' in a cast. But you do, and the op wants to know if that's the case in each tournament. Information. Sure it's rated Teen. And people are going to have different standards with issues of swearing, violence, sex, and disturbing content. That's why I find the MPAA ratings on movies incredibly useless and tend to check imdb to see specifically what it's rated for. Because I consider some things more disturbing then others. And apparently the op does so as well. I don't really understand the violence apologists as they seem to think SC2 is somehow incredibly violent- everything is so small and most is mechanical. As far as intense violence, a PG movie like Prince Caspian is more violent. The point is, when one watches a SC tournament, one reasonably expects very miniature amounts of violence of very little emotional intensity (no close-ups, dieing scenes, no Saving Private Ryan moments), but one does not necessarily expect to be greeted by f-bombs and players 'getting raped'. So the op wishes to be informed ahead of time. Information. What do you have against it? As a complete aside and nothing to do with this particular thread, but: I'm no longer convinced this is the case. They're out there I'm sure, but sometimes I feel like they've been drowned out. If you have the time, I would recommend catching up on Falling's posts (they start in the middle of page 16). He is putting into words what I've struggled to convey, thank you (Falling) for your insights. I think some of the poster's in this forum just don't care whether Starcraft 2 (or esports) becomes mainstream or not outside of Korea. I feel like we need a Martin Luther King Jr. to spring up and give us all a motivational speech about the potential this game and community has to achieve great things for esports as a whole, but I think many still see this as something that will never be watched anywhere but the internet, in solitude or close company, never to be accepted by the masses. I will not believe this. Edit: Reading back, I find my last paragraph validated by posts like these... On May 25 2011 15:06 ShooTouts wrote: SC2 is never going to go mainstream like it is in Korea. The internet/video game crowd is always going to be who watches SC2 but thats still millions of potential viewers. Overall in this market I don't see how "cleaning up" is going to attract more viewers even though I cant even think of any casters that even cuss/ say offensive things that much. Its up to the individual events to decide what kind of show they want to run and if you dont like it dont watch it. Its as simple as that. | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
Its a game where ppl ( well kind of, in 4 out of 9 match ups ) get slaughtered by alines or by tank fire, or by the overpowerd colossus... etc, the thingy is that its a war game, violent etc. Now i have no problem with kids playing violent games, hell i was playing Painkiller when i was 9 BUT i do believe that R rate language is much less harmful for a kid then violent images. You can always watch tournaments/matches casted by day9 i think cuz he is the most G rate caster out there i believe. | ||
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
Most casting is not professionally done and the ones that are not targeted for 12 and under. Joe Rogan works for UFC but I always here him use expletives. Why is he allowed to do that? because his audience is for adults, not children and it is the same for Starcraft. If you really don't want your kids to listen to people who use "inappropriate language" it is your responsibility to filter it out for them, not the casters. On a personal level I am quite fine with casters being who they are and not some tv-friendly fake. When SC becomes that I will be much less enthusiastic to pay and listen to those people who wear facades so they can appeal to all ages. | ||
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