EPTAfter reading this I have some thinking to do hehe =)
Model for imbalance, with myths - Page 2
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FroZeNN
United States165 Posts
After reading this I have some thinking to do hehe =) | ||
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RoninShogun
United States315 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10380 Posts
Dude, just wow! Good job, hopefully people will feel less confident now that they're better suited at balancing than Blizzard is. Oh I think I found an error: Under "It's only a small imbalance" Now back to SC2. Consider that Blizzard’s margin of error is +- 5%. So if T wins 55% of games against Z, Blizzard considers that balanced. (55-45)/45 = 22%. So terran wins 122% more games than zerg in TvZ. It’s still quite a difference. They win 122% of the amount of games Zerg wins, but 22% more (100% is the same as the amount of games zerg wins). Correct? | ||
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saus
United States59 Posts
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Azzur
Australia6267 Posts
Now, what I'll be super interested if you can come up with some sort of statistical method to interpret data at the highest (i.e. pro) level. | ||
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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
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Waking
United States46 Posts
If I may make a suggestion - instead of looking at the top players with 50% win ratio versus the bottom, you should look at the top players with 50% versus plat players. This would yield the same information. Assume that plat players represent the equilibrium ratios for the mid-leagues (silver-plat) and find that in comparison with masters. This helps to eliminate the bias I mentioned earlier. | ||
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Essentia
1150 Posts
Ladder statistics based on W/L are also a dumb way to measure stats. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
The most obvious thing completely wrong with the "post" is to not look at pros for balance. In any RTS game or game you always look at the top level for balance because these are the people playing the game at the highest level and are actively trying to "break the game." Really all the OP is saying (but ironically not doing in many of his examples in the OP) is: "don't be biased with your balance judgements." Nothing new...and there's no need to go into "intricate mathematics" or math at all for any of this...the OP is overcomplicating things, and likely has not enough experience to legitimately comment on balance or imbalance in the first place. The most qualified people to talk about balance are the pro players and people high up on ladder that are playing the game everyday versus other good players. But 99% of these players are trying to practice and improve themselves and not even worry about balance in the first place, though everyone QQ sometimes. imo OP is just trying to re-invent the wheel on balance discussions aka having a discussion about how to discuss things lol...there's about one of these posts per month or so that pop up with some guy that thinks he's mega smart and mystical with "the maths" -_- there's just so many things wrong in the OP and ironically "biased." Do we really need another thread discussing how we should be discussing things and hordes of low post count people going, "wow you're so smart and amazing."  Nice effort sure...but i think a bit misplaced. Also, the entire premise of the thread doesn't work because there is no definitive model for imbalance. The model everyone uses for imbalance is...guess what? Their personal bias and opinion. Notice my use of italics for emphasis. | ||
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fire_brand
Canada1123 Posts
Stellar read, hope to see more posts in the future. On May 20 2011 15:00 avilo wrote: Just because someone made an incredibly long post does not make it mega awesome or even remotely accurate. The most obvious thing completely wrong with the "post" is to not look at pros for balance. In any RTS game or game you always look at the top level for balance because these are the people playing the game at the highest level and are actively trying to "break the game." Really all the OP is saying (but ironically not doing in many of his examples in the OP) is: "don't be biased with your balance judgements." Nothing new...and there's no need to go into "intricate mathematics" or math at all for any of this...the OP is overcomplicating things, and likely has not enough experience to legitimately comment on balance or imbalance in the first place. The most qualified people to talk about balance are the pro players and people high up on ladder that are playing the game everyday versus other good players. But 99% of these players are trying to practice and improve themselves and not even worry about balance in the first place, though everyone QQ sometimes. imo OP is just trying to re-invent the wheel on balance discussions aka having a discussion about how to discuss things lol...there's about one of these posts per month or so that pop up with some guy that thinks he's mega smart and mystical with "the maths" -_- there's just so many things wrong in the OP and ironically "biased." Do we really need another thread discussing how we should be discussing things and hordes of low post count people going, "wow you're so smart and amazing." Nice effort sure...but i think a bit misplaced. Also, the entire premise of the thread doesn't work because there is no definitive model for imbalance. The model everyone uses for imbalance is...guess what? Their personal bias and opinion. Notice my use of italics for emphasis. Math is fact ^_______^ Love to see people in the community supporting work our members do instead of harping on it. | ||
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ElusoryX
Singapore2047 Posts
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
I didn't read the whole thing because while it looks nicely formatted at first glance, it's actually cumbersome to read because of the nested spoilers. Please generate a PDF version of this. From an organizational standpoint, it would be good if it was easier to find the conclusions you are making, since you seem to have the attitude that your statements are backed by data and your model. After reading your assumptions, I second the concerns brought up regarding the validity of your assumption that imbalance is invariant to player skill. For example, gold leaguers don't have the micro to execute decent marine splits, and thus a moving banelings into marines at that level is much more cost efficient. There is a reason that this forum gets angry when it seems blizzard is making balance changes that balance the game at lower levels but potentially imbalance the game at high levels (e.g., barracks requiring depot). This assumption is so off that I don't know if the rest it is worth reading. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10380 Posts
I think he was trying to explain the details of analyzing balance only statistically. Though, analyzing something statistically is not necessarily the best way. So I guess that's what you mean by "misplaced"? | ||
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Essentia
1150 Posts
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Jombozeus
China1014 Posts
On May 20 2011 15:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: @avilo I think he was trying to explain the details of analyzing balance only statistically. Though, analyzing something statistically is not necessarily the best way. So I guess that's what you mean by "misplaced"? Since the format of the post follows that of a scientific paper, its only natural it has to go through some sort of pseudo-peer-review. One cannot write a paper on evolution, and use a erroneous method and assume to receive praise. In fact, some of the pseudo-science papers out there are amongst the most well laid out pieces of work I've seen. Doesn't make it any more credible. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
Overall I feel like talking Imbalance and players skill is a waste of time because there are no feasible ways to measure those things, and people tend to get too emotional about that.Add to that the armchair designers and a lot of the discussion turns into a crap fest. Thanks for the post though it was pretty interesting. | ||
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GenoPewPew
United States347 Posts
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fire_brand
Canada1123 Posts
When someone writes something so detailed and well crafted the least you can do is read the entire thing before bashing the shit out of it. Post count and ladder rank don't always equate to intelligence. | ||
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Penke
Sweden346 Posts
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Samhax
1054 Posts
But i agree with your thesis, you can't balance a game with win ratio and ladder ranking because of the disparity of skill and i think Blizzard is wrong when they display their statistics about the races. It's not a good approach. But they said it was just a part of their informations, they have many others data to balance the game. We just have to trust them and hope for the best :p | ||
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