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antitrop
United States29 Posts
On April 04 2012 13:10 Hashbaz wrote: Episode 37 MP3 is up! http://itg-audio.blogspot.com/2012/04/inside-game-37.html Soundcloud: http://snd.sc/HYevLz Torrent: http://db.tt/FVxe4WoL You are a god among men, thank you so much. I like to listen to the show on my iPod on the go and the Twitch VODs just don't do the job. | ||
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Duravi
United States1205 Posts
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Bayyne
United States1967 Posts
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krisss
Luxembourg305 Posts
Wheat said that those "drug abuses" are no legitimate issue, unless a tournament organizer says it is. Wheat could not be more wrong with that statement. If we let organizers control such issues, there will NEVER be anything done with any abuses. Whynegative PR, why extra costs? Its the fans, only the fans, that decide if an issue is legitimate. Maybe the US citizens just have another view on such kind of abuses (Yey, Lance Armstrong and those track and field athletes..), and its not considered as a "harsh" kind of cheating. Maybe therefore INc and djW made fun of it. I saw lots of documentations about such kind of abuses, I like pretty much every sports. And those documentations all had the same conclusion: "In every sports with money and/or fame on the line, there are, and will always be people trying to abuse and cheat". Therefore i dont understand the views of Wheat and INc. I know esports is at the moment not big enough to spend this amount of money for controls etc. And there is no official regulation for those kind of things. But just because those things are missing, it doesnt mean that this discussion is worthless or senseless. I mean if MLGs and other big tournament organizers are able to get prizemoneys over 70.000 for one event, why not spending 2k of those into drug tests? I know esports is not ready for it yet, but it IS doable. | ||
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looken
727 Posts
 no one expects wheat to make the world a better place on his own. but it felt like wheat and incontrol both kind of trolled this topic really hard. both of them get a lot of attention within the starcraft scene and it just felt so very bad to see them play down this whole thing. what's wondering me the most is that painuser and idra seemed to absolutely agree that it IS a problem right know and that there are ppl abusing these kind of drugs/medicine while incontrol and wheat obviously only heard rumours about it and belive its not that big of an issue. it's kind of odd that 4 pros/casters that are very deep inside the SCII scene have so different views on this. | ||
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chocopan
Japan986 Posts
On April 04 2012 13:19 antitrop wrote: You are a god among men, thank you so much. I like to listen to the show on my iPod on the go and the Twitch VODs just don't do the job. can i just second that. good work. | ||
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Netsky
Australia1155 Posts
How would you feel if you found out that your favourite player railed adderall before a big match? or dosed before a big tournament? Also, in relation to the "diagnosed" use. Whether you have a prescription or not is irrelevant in my opinion, any performance enhancing substance shouldn't be allowed. | ||
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Allegoria
Ireland6 Posts
On April 04 2012 13:10 Hashbaz wrote: Episode 37 MP3 is up! http://itg-audio.blogspot.com/2012/04/inside-game-37.html Soundcloud: http://snd.sc/HYevLz Torrent: http://db.tt/FVxe4WoL Thank you very much sir! I'm unable to ever listen to the show because of the timezone difference and it's thanks to you I can always catch up on the latest episode :D | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
PainUser said he's ADHD and could get legitimate prescriptions for Adderall. If it's a medical condition and his doctor says to take it, how could tournaments penalize that? | ||
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Fabozi
Slovakia336 Posts
On April 04 2012 19:37 Zzoram wrote: My only problem with testing is how do you separate the legitimately diagnosed ADHD people from just abusers? PainUser said he's ADHD and could get legitimate prescriptions for Adderall. If it's a medical condition and his doctor says to take it, how could tournaments penalize that? I didn't watch the show yet but this should be dealt with the same way like in normal sports. People are usually allowed to take their prescription drugs. Many cyclist are allowed to take their asthma medication even though the substance itself is prohibited. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On April 04 2012 19:37 Zzoram wrote: My only problem with testing is how do you separate the legitimately diagnosed ADHD people from just abusers? PainUser said he's ADHD and could get legitimate prescriptions for Adderall. If it's a medical condition and his doctor says to take it, how could tournaments penalize that? That's a non-issue, you can just show them a doctor's permit and be done with it. This reminds me of an interesting lecture I had once at university. There was a person who used to work at Philips, so he could tell us some inside stories. He stated that the reason that the new televisions with internet access often had shoddy security was because it costs money to properly research and take into account security issues. It doesn't fit one of Philips' notions of "adding value to a product", since if a television is secure that's simply not something you can advertise. Potential buyers would be put off by the whole idea of suddenly being reminded there's a security danger and would stray from buying such TVs altogether. Of course, eventually some improved industry standards would develop, but only out of necessity, not because a big company like Philips would get it right straight away. Problems with security can't be ignored forever and it was in the interest of the entire industry to do something about it, however, it wasn't for any one company, so progress was very slow - especially with market-focused ones like Philips. I think this is easily applicable to the situation here. MLG could require drug testing, but it would add nothing of value to their tournament, as it wouldn't legitimize the competition - rather, it would delegitimize it by reminding the audience of the existence of such drugs. Simply silencing the issue is so much easier and cheaper. Also, try not drinking coffee for 10 days and then drink three cups before your tournament finals. I bet it works! I'm not really against the use of drugs though. I've never used adderall/ritalin, so I'm not sure about their addictive potential or whatever, but I do know they're often used studying for exams and finishing a project. And in those cases, while I'm sure it's better if you can do it simply without performance enhancing drugs, you'd also have to admit that's a really unnatural situation to be in. Concentrating that long is hard and having some drug to more attune one to the circumstances seems hardly an absolutely awful idea. Similarly, if people suffer from stress or anxiety at tournaments then that's in all honesty something that could be aided with by using drugs. It's an unnatural situation to begin with, to have to perform in front of a large audience under pressure from your team, fans, sponsors, yourself etc. Why not give nature a hand and take something for it? Adderall seems kinda dangerous and it's illegal without a prescription in many countries though, so that's probably a bad idea. I wonder if MLG could just add it to the tournament rules( "no illegal use of prescription drugs") and then never enforce it unless an obvious case presented itself. Because by having such a rule, anyone who breaks it is essentially lying to MLG and could simply be banned from all major tournaments if it was ever found out. They would probably stop telling their friends and being smug about it - even if it probably would still happen. One thing I don't really like is that people never call out anyone for this. It's always: "oh, I've heard of it being used and it does happen", but nobody ever explicitly says that player [X] is guilty of it. Accusing someone without proof can be quite damaging to their career, but if you are sure, then I don't see how someone that uses such 'problematic' substances should just expect nobody to ever tell on them. It's information the public deserves to know more of, if it's used to enhance performance. I know InControl is never going to just tell this in public out of fear of backlash, but that's why we have e-sports journalism. They can investigate such things, have some standard of proof, and publish an article about it. | ||
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TheSir
1830 Posts
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Deleted User 176289
169 Posts
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Zax19
Czech Republic1136 Posts
On April 04 2012 19:06 Netsky wrote: Also, in relation to the "diagnosed" use. Whether you have a prescription or not is irrelevant in my opinion, any performance enhancing substance shouldn't be allowed. This reminds me of an issue I heard about in connection with Deus Ex: Human Revolution. What happened is that a runner with some new prosthetic design (I guess this one?) ran so fast that in the future we could have people like him running faster than people with "natural" limbs. So for me sports are about being born with the capability to master some skill, it's not about being born "inferior" and then being allowed to compensate by the use of drugs. The talent should matter, not loopholes in what we perceive as ethical (allowing disadvantaged person the use of drugs that can make him or her better that a "talented" person without the use of drugs). If anything we would need a classification so that people who have these issues but still want to compete with the use of drugs do not compete for the same spot as “normal” people, for the sake of both parties. | ||
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
On April 04 2012 20:39 TheSir wrote: Drug tests..... esports isn't ready for that, not even close and thats why it's not a issue atm. Why does everybody including Marcus and Geoff dance around this? Where is the no-fluff? Matter of fact is, both the tests and PR cost too much for the benefit it gives. That's the sole reason. It's more affordable to ignore it right now. regardless of how much of an issue it is. It is more convenient not to step on peoples toes, on business partners and major teams and tournaments. The last thing MLG would want to do is to spend more money. Sure, the last thing a player would do is to denounce a fellow player, since absolute proof is virtually impossible to have, besides of your own witness/testament. No player could go out and say x,y,z is taking it, especially not on his own accord. Peer pressure is in an already tightly closed upper echelon is already high enough. The practicability issue is highly understandable. Maybe it's just the choice of words and flow of discussion but Marcus' and Geoff's behavior left an unpleasant vibe of "well, nothing we can do about it right now". Not only had Taylor and Greg to slowly convince Wheat that it is a serious issue, the Marcus I usually know from Lo3 would go on a long rant on how any legitimacy would be thrown out of the window. That it is a fundamental issue, regardless whether it could be currently done or not. That tournaments alone, teams alone will never have any intention to press matters unless forced by public opinion. That it is the effort of third parties, media and community to raise such concerns and then would go ahead and encourage it. As the member of community he is himself. And not "if you think it's an issue...". | ||
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TheSir
1830 Posts
On April 04 2012 21:21 rotegirte wrote: Why does everybody including Marcus and Geoff dance around this? Where is the no-fluff? Matter of fact is, both the tests and PR cost too much for the benefit it gives. That's the sole reason. No it's not, even if tests were like a dollar, it still doesn't matter. Esports is not ready for it (and never will be) because it's not a genuine sport yet that is recognized by international committees. So you cant even setup freaking rules. So all this talk about how expensive it is etc doesn't matter at all right now and thats why it's not a freaking issue cause nothing can be done about it and probably that will never change. Just like there will never be tests in a sport/game as poker which is 1000 times bigger then Esports with a lot more money on the line. Just forget about all this drug nonsense, never gonna happen. | ||
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
On April 04 2012 22:08 TheSir wrote: No it's not, even if tests were like a dollar, it still doesn't matter. Esports is not ready for it (and never will be) because it's not a genuine sport yet that is recognized by international committees. So you cant even setup freaking rules. So all this talk about how expensive it is etc doesn't matter at all right now and thats why it's not a freaking issue cause nothing can be done about it and probably that will never change. Just like there will never be tests in a sport/game as poker which is 1000 times bigger then Esports with a lot more money on the line. Just forget about all this drug nonsense, never gonna happen. You draw legitimacy from an arbitrary point of prize amounts? Sure you can set up rules, whenever you want. Board games have rules. Freaking kids on the playground set up rules. It's called spirit of competition. | ||
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TheSir
1830 Posts
On April 04 2012 22:12 rotegirte wrote: You draw legitimacy from an arbitrary point of prize amounts? Sure you can set up rules, whenever you want. Board games have rules. Freaking kids on the playground set up rules. It's called spirit of competition. Are you serious or what? You cant just setup doping rules, haha come on just stop. | ||
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
On April 04 2012 22:14 TheSir wrote: Are you serious or what? You cant just setup doping rules, haha come on just stop. "You can not just set up X", with your only reason that current industry money has not yet reached a certain unspecified threshold. Have I missed anything else in your flawless logic? | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On April 04 2012 22:08 TheSir wrote: No it's not, even if tests were like a dollar, it still doesn't matter. Esports is not ready for it (and never will be) because it's not a genuine sport yet that is recognized by international committees. So you cant even setup freaking rules. So all this talk about how expensive it is etc doesn't matter at all right now and thats why it's not a freaking issue cause nothing can be done about it and probably that will never change. Just like there will never be tests in a sport/game as poker which is 1000 times bigger then Esports with a lot more money on the line. Just forget about all this drug nonsense, never gonna happen. Your post is nonsensical. You say it's "never going to happen" because e-sports isn't recognized yet. I think it is recognized in Korea, for one, and I'm not sure what's preventing, say, the Swedish government from working together with an event like DreamHack. and "nothing can be done about it".. why not? Because people keep saying it can't? Starcraft 2 is a completely different game from poker, I'm not sure what the two have in common. All in all, your post is just putting your fingers inside your ear and screaming "STOP TALKING ABOUT IT, STOP IT NOW". Not to say I'm in favor of it, but at least please try to give some actual argument. | ||
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