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On April 05 2012 01:57 Mauldo wrote:
They dismissed Painuser because he was about to say that only Starcraft is an esport, and Incontrol shot that point down. What else is there to talk about? It's a ridiculous stance to take anyway, like Incontrol said. Who are we to say LoL isn't an esport? Soul Caliber V? They take their own skills to master, and they're all getting crowds that support their pros as legitimate masters of the game. If Moscow 5 are supported by the 250,000 LoL viewers from IEM, can we really shit on them because we don't think the game is any good? That's a really pretentious point of view to take.
Except he said he was a quake player and this is what he thought about quake as far as FPS games go. Didn't you listen to the show? Don't try to guess what he says if you don't even know what you yourself are talking about.
Also, blaming their answers on the fact that they're sponsored is so incredibly delusional. EG doesn't have a LoL team, so Incontrol could have shit on it if he wanted to.
Oh, they don't? They might soon. They did have many other teams, too, and there's no reason to assume that this was about LoL or about LoL strictly. The guy who called in did mention MOBAs, which is much broader. Edit: Fithing games, too... Which EG has. I wouldn't argue against fighting games, but it's still a valid discussion.
And besides, the douche who asked the question was so disrespectful and obviously only asked the question so that he could say LoL wasn't an esport on air. He wasn't looking for a discussion, so any "discussion" was dead on arrival.
PainUser didn't think so, and for some reason he was also the only one willing to discuss the topic. Who did agree with you was iNcontroL and djWHEAT, who also happened to think that this was not a legitimate discussion. I'm sick of hearing that this is a strictly troll question when obviously a lot of esports-educated people, if you will, consider it serious, yet it never gets discussed, just bashed down.
Edit: Here's something to think about - we are already discussing what things are good and what things are bad for an esport. We do argue that some things are better and some things are worse for starcraft - even strictly from a balance standpoint. If we can do this much, we can as well compare different games, even games of different genres for that matter. It's more complex, but possible - you can't negate that.
One might argue that we should only go as far as the popular game allows, and embrace popularity for what it is, but that is a very sad standpoint to take philosophically. Because masses don't understand the hardcore, they will go ahead and steal every little thing we have. Why would we allow that?
Please understand that this is not really about hating a game of different genre or anything like that - quite tot he contrary. If nobody said anything about Halo's skillcap, id software might as well go ahead and copy that for the next iteration of quake - it's popular, right?
30 years down the road, we might have a mainstream esport. Chances are, it might be a shitty esport, and I'm not quite sure how that's going to work out if a lot of people, unlike now, understand it to a deeper level. Do you think football [soccer] could have such a fanbase if the current version of the game was as simple as bowling?
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Wonder if PainUser ever clued in on to Incontrol's awesome orb joke.
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On April 05 2012 00:31 k!llua wrote:
I feel like the point was missed re. drugs somewhat.
The idea of the topic isn't whether it's a problem: the real problem is when Sundance is forced to answer questions from breakfast shows on CNN, Fox and MSNBC about what Major League Gaming is doing in regards to drugs.
It's not really about whether there's an epidemic of Aderall or meth abusers taking home the trophy - it's whether we as a community and the organisations that run our tournaments have a strong enough framework to deflect the criticism from mainstream media when they come calling - and one day, they will come calling. If the answers aren't good enough, sponsors will run for the hills to avoid their name being mentioned next to drugs.
That's the real issue.
While that is a potential problem, I think the main thing is simply that it takes away from the legitimacy of the competition. Unless they are going to hand out Class II prescription meds on the gaming floor it's not a level playing field.
Idra's comments on how you could cheat with a cellphone or laser pointer were pretty interesting too. Has there ever been a scandal like that? It DOES seem easy and I did notice players fiddling with their phone in the booth at MLG...
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I really wonder if the community is prepared to face up to reality in regards what this will really call into question. Aderol, Meth and drugs of their classification I can understand. However, Monster does what? Redbull does what? If you can drink redbull, why not mini-thins, or 5 hour energy....... It might seem 'simple' but the first isn't what it appears to be, it could lead to a lot worse scrutiny. Even druggie class warfare. Would Viagra be ok? Nothing like getting up for a big match.
In a physical competition, this subjet matter of leveling the playing field is a lot clearer. In gaming competition... what is cheating, and what is just smart....
Caffiene, even nicotine can slightly increase concentration. No, of course they are not going to drug test for smoking.
I enjoyed the show reguardless. Debate is good, perspective is better.
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On April 05 2012 04:38 BioNova wrote:
I really wonder if the community is prepared to face up to reality in regards what this will really call into question. Aderol, Meth and drugs of their classification I can understand. However, Monster does what? Redbull does what? If you can drink redbull, why not mini-thins, or 5 hour energy....... It might seem 'simple' but the first isn't what it appears to be, it could lead to a lot worse scrutiny. Even druggie class warfare. Would Viagra be ok? Nothing like getting up for a big match.
In a physical competition, this subjet matter of leveling the playing field is a lot clearer. In gaming competition... what is cheating, and what is just smart....
Caffiene, even nicotine can slightly increase concentration. No, of course they are not going to drug test for smoking
The community is funded by companies that are in it to advertise what they legally can. Substances in those products may be even worse than some of the illegal ones, but we're just too small to make a stance on this.
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I looked all over blip.tv and on youtube.. I really wanted to watch this episode but I have been unable to find a link to the newest show, does anyone have a more up to date directory of the show?
I really want to listen to this episode.
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On April 05 2012 05:21 PooLarX wrote:
I looked all over blip.tv and on youtube.. I really wanted to watch this episode but I have been unable to find a link to the newest show, does anyone have a more up to date directory of the show?
I really want to listen to this episode.
http://www.twitch.tv/onemoregametv/videos
There you go. It's split into two parts because there was a skype crash about 30 mins in.
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I want to make a point in regards to what Incontrol said about not implementing the 6m1g maps. I know that Progamers can't be bother with these types of maps, but it doesn't have to be implemented in Wings of Liberty. The perfect timing for such a change would be with Heart of the Swarm or even Legacy of the Void, if it calls for it. I mean the meta will change once HotS comes out, so it might as well be implemented then.
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sad to see some legitimate topics being clowned on.
could be expected from incontrol but not so much from wheat.
-there don't has to be a pro mod.
blizz can take care of stuff themself if they get the idea (just like normal balance)
to say blizz won't care is just bollocks and with that kind of attitude nothing will change because they don't feel anyone will expect this from them.
-painusers drug statement concerned me that it is so common and that it's so beneficial.
to clown on this topic is stupid.
tournaments will have a benefit from testing their players.
it will make things more professional and transparent and the clean players will feel better and respected, so they and the viewers will prefer these kind of tournaments and the whole scene will be more attractive to serious sponsors..
there is a value.
- the whole "which game truly is really esport?" is a legitimate topic.
look at olympics for example.
they decide which games they want to be olympic and which not.
viewer numbers don't play that big of a role, if at all.
if they can have that discussion, why don't the cybersport community ?
if wheat and incontrol truly want to say that the "mobile gaming festival" the wcg wants to become is something they respect without going red in the face, then i would really admire those lying skills.
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Thanks for the links guys, really appreciate it.
I always wondered why he wasn't keep the most current up to date vods, but apparently he is.
Thanks again.
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I wish they had given their thoughts on, instead of applying 6M 1Gas to Wings Of Liberty, perhaps balancing HoTS around it.
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On April 05 2012 02:17 AdroiT wrote:
Thank you sir, you are awesome! You should try to get in contact with wheat and maybe you can be in charge of the podcast feed!
No, thank YOU. 
Wheat has said he supports me and the others who have posted mp3s. I've PM'd him about updating iTunes, etc. but he hasn't responded. :-/
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I would like to see a discussion around late game ZvX. I think the corruptor breaks that part of the game. Terran can't really go BC's and Protoss can't really go Carriers. And it is because Z can just mass corruptors so quickly and they are too good against those tier 4 units. To me that seems terrible, and I am a zerg player! Hope others would like to see a discussion around that!
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On April 05 2012 11:51 pragmatisT wrote:
I would like to see a discussion around late game ZvX. I think the corruptor breaks that part of the game. Terran can't really go BC's and Protoss can't really go Carriers. And it is because Z can just mass corruptors so quickly and they are too good against those tier 4 units. To me that seems terrible, and I am a zerg player! Hope others would like to see a discussion around that!
You have to realize then what would counter BC's or colossi or Carriers? BC's are good vs hydralisks/mutalisks, especially with raven and PDD, carriers + colossi would destroy hydra/mutalisk and colossi in general would just make zvp unwinnable unless protoss didn't make colossi.
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On April 05 2012 04:38 BioNova wrote:
I really wonder if the community is prepared to face up to reality in regards what this will really call into question. Aderol, Meth and drugs of their classification I can understand. However, Monster does what? Redbull does what? If you can drink redbull, why not mini-thins, or 5 hour energy....... It might seem 'simple' but the first isn't what it appears to be, it could lead to a lot worse scrutiny. Even druggie class warfare. Would Viagra be ok? Nothing like getting up for a big match.
In a physical competition, this subjet matter of leveling the playing field is a lot clearer. In gaming competition... what is cheating, and what is just smart....
Caffiene, even nicotine can slightly increase concentration. No, of course they are not going to drug test for smoking.
I enjoyed the show reguardless. Debate is good, perspective is better.
Comparing caffeine to amphetamines is silly. Are you going to compare tylenol to oxy next? I understand you are asking "where do we draw the line?", but there IS a line. Adderall is a controlled substance, caffeine is not. Let's not turn this into a debate about what substances the government should or should not regulate...
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On April 05 2012 04:21 JackDT wrote:
Idra's comments on how you could cheat with a cellphone or laser pointer were pretty interesting too. Has there ever been a scandal like that? It DOES seem easy and I did notice players fiddling with their phone in the booth at MLG...
I remember hearing rumors about TSL signaling things from the audience to Fruitdealer during the GSL finals, and there were some issues with tournaments without proper soundproofing having players hear what the casters were saying and reacting to it, but that's about all I can think of.
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It would be the simplest thing in the world though. Set a cellphone on a very soft vibrate, mute it otherwise, only allow calls from one specific person. Imagine a ZvZ: have your friend give you a ring at one minute into the game if your opponent 6-pools, the same at two minutes into the game if it's some sort of early pool. If this information is missing, you know you can go hatchery first and if it does come you know you need an earlier pool, but will have an economic advantage anyway. This way you'll either get ahead of your opponent or stay equal. Have your friend give you another ring the moment +1 ranged attack starts, so that you know when your opponent's timing attack will come. I think if someone does this risk-free act, he could win a way higher percentage of ZvZ games.
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On April 05 2012 20:56 Grumbels wrote:
It would be the simplest thing in the world though. Set a cellphone on a very soft vibrate, mute it otherwise, only allow calls from one specific person. Imagine a ZvZ: have your friend give you a ring at one minute into the game if your opponent 6-pools, the same at two minutes into the game if it's some sort of early pool. If this information is missing, you know you can go hatchery first and if it does come you know you need an earlier pool, but will have an economic advantage anyway. This way you'll either get ahead of your opponent or stay equal. Have your friend give you another ring the moment +1 ranged attack starts, so that you know when your opponent's timing attack will come. I think if someone does this risk-free act, he could win a way higher percentage of ZvZ games.
-You can build yourself a phone that you can plug between computer and headset ( will take 5 minutes).
So you listen to gamesounds + a guy who watch the event...
-You can buy one of the gamble-cheat knock devices, that give you information with a little hammer.
-You can buy a diving-headset (sound goes over bones not in the ear) and hide it with the phone at your body.
-Or: You just hide a good old pager
= if you want to cheat its very easy.
By many events and so many players, one guy did it for sure.
The question is, would one of the top guys do it? Is the risk worth it?
If you are a top player, no question this information let you win 90% of the games.
With a maphack , against equal skill enemy, you should win all your games (if you know how to react to it).
If you are not a top player, you most likely loose even with this information, against one of the best.
PS:
i have the feeling this show gets more and more flat every time.
Wheat cuts every serious try (idra bliz critic , painuser drug problematic ) and only talks about advertising events or say how good player a or b is. Also aggression is not the correct respond to any critic.
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On April 05 2012 22:44 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 20:56 Grumbels wrote:
It would be the simplest thing in the world though. Set a cellphone on a very soft vibrate, mute it otherwise, only allow calls from one specific person. Imagine a ZvZ: have your friend give you a ring at one minute into the game if your opponent 6-pools, the same at two minutes into the game if it's some sort of early pool. If this information is missing, you know you can go hatchery first and if it does come you know you need an earlier pool, but will have an economic advantage anyway. This way you'll either get ahead of your opponent or stay equal. Have your friend give you another ring the moment +1 ranged attack starts, so that you know when your opponent's timing attack will come. I think if someone does this risk-free act, he could win a way higher percentage of ZvZ games. -You can build yourself a phone that you can plug between computer and headset ( will take 5 minutes). So you listen to gamesounds + a guy who watch the event... -You can buy one of the gamble-cheat knock devices, that give you information with a little hammer. -You can buy a diving-headset (sound goes over bones not in the ear) and hide it with the phone at your body. -Or: You just hide a good old pager = if you want to cheat its very easy. By many events and so many players, one guy did it for sure. The question is, would one of the top guys do it? Is the risk worth it? If you are a top player, no question this information let you win 90% of the games. With a maphack , against equal skill enemy, you should win all your games (if you know how to react to it). If you are not a top player, you most likely loose even with this information, against one of the best. PS: i have the feeling this show gets more and more flat every time. Wheat cuts every serious try (idra bliz critic , painuser drug problematic ) and only talks about advertising events or say how good player a or b is. Also aggression is not the correct respond to any critic.
Well, you have to be realistic. Wheat now works for both twitch and MLG. I'm happy for him that now he can actually support his family off of doing things he loves, but as a consequence he can't be very critical about the organizations he works for. For instance, he completely played down the fact that a large number of viewers watched MLG Winter Arena for free due to Twitch's incompetence in setting up a pay wall. Do I blame him? No, he has never been a liar, he just watches more carefully what he talks about these days.
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EPT
