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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
Why are people arguing about the Strike Cannon one-shot killing Immortals?
That is the whole idea behind the Strike Cannon. To neutralize a single target. The Thor is a single target DPS unit. The Immortal is not supposed to counter the Thor in a 1:1 ratio. That is just silly. The Thor is higher tech, more expensive (by a lot), the ability is activated and researched. Are you guys really upset that we can neutralize one of your a+clicked Immortals in this scenario?
Protoss essentially gets a Thor equivalent as their initial robotics attacking unit. It's less expensive, more nimble, doesn't require research, and can easily be rushed to with most common Protoss openings.
The Immortal is fine, and so was the Thor.
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On May 06 2011 08:38 TimeSpiral wrote:
Why are people arguing about the Strike Cannon one-shot killing Immortals?
That is the whole idea behind the Strike Cannon. To neutralize a single target. The Thor is a single target DPS unit. The Immortal is not supposed to counter the Thor in a 1:1 ratio. That is just silly. The Thor is higher tech, more expensive (by a lot), the ability is activated and researched. Are you guys really upset that we can neutralize one of your a+clicked Immortals in this scenario?
Protoss essentially gets a Thor equivalent as their initial robotics attacking unit. It's less expensive, more nimble, doesn't require research, and can easily be rushed to with most common Protoss openings.
The Immortal is fine, and so was the Thor.
Agreed - Even if i play as toss, it'll make our HT's OP vs terran as we can feedback allmost anything usefull.
All we need is for them to give marines and mauders energy for their stim instead of health 
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On May 06 2011 08:09 angra86 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 03:01 space_yes wrote:On May 06 2011 02:48 randplaty wrote:On May 06 2011 01:43 s3rp wrote:On May 06 2011 01:35 randplaty wrote:
Strike cannon is still usable. HTs didn't even come onto the field until late late game in TvP even with the amulet. Without amulet, HTs were almost non-existent. Protoss typically went Robo->Robo Bay->Council -> Templar tech. Thors with strike cannon can be on the field much earlier than HT.
With the Thors havng to regenrate 100 Energy to use the Ability probably not , a bit ealier maybe theres a small window but after that you can just stop building Thors at all. Thorzain vs Tyler and MC... Everytime Thorzain used thors he either used strike cannon really late in the game.. or he didn't even really use them at all. Thorzain strike cannoned Collossus in a pro match against Tyler, so even though collossus outrange Thors, I don't think its that easy to kite Thors with Collossus. Thorzain didn't even really use strike cannons against MC. MC went templar tech because he knew robotech wouldn't work against Thors. But MC got owned just as bad. There is 0 counter to Thors. Voidrays work when the army sizes are small, but not in larger numbers. Pre patch: Thormech > robo tech Thormech > templar tech Thormech > stargate tech Post patch: Thormech > robo tech Thormech > HT tech Thormech > stargate tech Thormech < HT + robo What's wrong with that? Silver protoss here and I agree 100%. Furthermore I don't understand why terran buildings don't have energy. Liftoff should cost mana IMO so I can have a counter to liftoff. Also, EMP is OP and should require the terran player to hit a 6-key alphanumeric key combination to execute. I think hellions are too powerful vs zealots. Possibly what blizz needs to do is make hellions cost some gas that way the terran cant mass them so easily. Finally colossus need an air attack. Colossus cost so much gas but can't defend themselves verse vikings. Very nice haha ... What do people think about going for battlecruisers rather than thors in tvp post patch? Whether intentional or not, I think the energy change really kills thors in this MU, could battlecruisers serve as a better late game unit than thors? While their damage on the ground probably isn't as good, they won't be hard countered by immortals and toss will likely have to go heavy on stalkers to take them down efficiently. Yamato cannon has a very long range which could be nice for sniping key units before a large engagement, along with the added benefit that BC's are now faster and won't make the engagement as much of a clusterfuck on the ground. Beyond that, I don't think it would be as much of an investment to go BC since you will likely have a couple starports down by end game already and possibly you may have already upgraded air for your vikings once or twice.
BC's well since the Toss will already have plenty of Stalkers with Upgrades aren't all that great before you can catch up in Upgrades . Even on similar Upgrades Blinkstalker kill them pretty decently , you'll have to add some Ravens with PDD and all this is vulnerable to HT's as well . Problem is with 300 Gas BC's and 200 Gas Raves and Airupgrades you can't get anything other then Marines besides the 2. Maybe you'll be able to squeeze in some Ghosts post Patch. Right now HT's are very strong combined with Stalkers against BC's and of course Ravens.
It can work but it's hard to pull of tried it couple of times with mediocre Results. You will definitly have to use 10-15 SCV's with your Army all the time for BC's . If you start losing those Things it's pretty bad.
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This patch is really great now.
I didn't like the gateway changes initally, it would have brought back too many 2gate rushes. This compromise is really nice.
The other changes are all great too.
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On May 06 2011 08:38 TimeSpiral wrote:
Why are people arguing about the Strike Cannon one-shot killing Immortals?
That is the whole idea behind the Strike Cannon. To neutralize a single target. The Thor is a single target DPS unit. The Immortal is not supposed to counter the Thor in a 1:1 ratio. That is just silly. The Thor is higher tech, more expensive (by a lot), the ability is activated and researched. Are you guys really upset that we can neutralize one of your a+clicked Immortals in this scenario?
Protoss essentially gets a Thor equivalent as their initial robotics attacking unit. It's less expensive, more nimble, doesn't require research, and can easily be rushed to with most common Protoss openings.
The Immortal is fine, and so was the Thor.
Nobody is arguing about that. That's fine. Allow Thors to kill immortals.
Now another unit... the HT should be able to counter Thors... not by themselves, but in conjunction with immortals and other units. I think that's perfectly fine.
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On May 06 2011 01:59 no.1 kissy boy wrote:
It's funny how protoss players didn't really complain about Thors prior to this iteration of the patch and now they're all like yeah Thors are absolutely impossible to deal with, we can't do anything about them.
lol, that was pretty much the same case for khydarian amulet also =p
everyone was calling for a collosus nerf at that time, but when the PTR hit, it was nothing but how imbalanced the templar with amulet was haha.
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People always complain, no matter what.. Doesn't matter if they know what they are talking about or not or if they have the worst game design knowledge in the world.. They always complain.
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On May 06 2011 08:48 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 08:09 angra86 wrote:On May 06 2011 03:01 space_yes wrote:On May 06 2011 02:48 randplaty wrote:On May 06 2011 01:43 s3rp wrote:On May 06 2011 01:35 randplaty wrote:
Strike cannon is still usable. HTs didn't even come onto the field until late late game in TvP even with the amulet. Without amulet, HTs were almost non-existent. Protoss typically went Robo->Robo Bay->Council -> Templar tech. Thors with strike cannon can be on the field much earlier than HT.
With the Thors havng to regenrate 100 Energy to use the Ability probably not , a bit ealier maybe theres a small window but after that you can just stop building Thors at all. Thorzain vs Tyler and MC... Everytime Thorzain used thors he either used strike cannon really late in the game.. or he didn't even really use them at all. Thorzain strike cannoned Collossus in a pro match against Tyler, so even though collossus outrange Thors, I don't think its that easy to kite Thors with Collossus. Thorzain didn't even really use strike cannons against MC. MC went templar tech because he knew robotech wouldn't work against Thors. But MC got owned just as bad. There is 0 counter to Thors. Voidrays work when the army sizes are small, but not in larger numbers. Pre patch: Thormech > robo tech Thormech > templar tech Thormech > stargate tech Post patch: Thormech > robo tech Thormech > HT tech Thormech > stargate tech Thormech < HT + robo What's wrong with that? Silver protoss here and I agree 100%. Furthermore I don't understand why terran buildings don't have energy. Liftoff should cost mana IMO so I can have a counter to liftoff. Also, EMP is OP and should require the terran player to hit a 6-key alphanumeric key combination to execute. I think hellions are too powerful vs zealots. Possibly what blizz needs to do is make hellions cost some gas that way the terran cant mass them so easily. Finally colossus need an air attack. Colossus cost so much gas but can't defend themselves verse vikings. Very nice haha ... What do people think about going for battlecruisers rather than thors in tvp post patch? Whether intentional or not, I think the energy change really kills thors in this MU, could battlecruisers serve as a better late game unit than thors? While their damage on the ground probably isn't as good, they won't be hard countered by immortals and toss will likely have to go heavy on stalkers to take them down efficiently. Yamato cannon has a very long range which could be nice for sniping key units before a large engagement, along with the added benefit that BC's are now faster and won't make the engagement as much of a clusterfuck on the ground. Beyond that, I don't think it would be as much of an investment to go BC since you will likely have a couple starports down by end game already and possibly you may have already upgraded air for your vikings once or twice. BC's well since the Toss will already have plenty of Stalkers with Upgrades aren't all that great before you can catch up in Upgrades . Even on similar Upgrades Blinkstalker kill them pretty decently , you'll have to add some Ravens with PDD and all this is vulnerable to HT's as well . Problem is with 300 Gas BC's and 200 Gas Raves and Airupgrades you can't get anything other then Marines besides the 2. Maybe you'll be able to squeeze in some Ghosts post Patch. Right now HT's are very strong combined with Stalkers against BC's and of course Ravens. It can work but it's hard to pull of tried it couple of times with mediocre Results. You will definitly have to use 10-15 SCV's with your Army all the time for BC's . If you start losing those Things it's pretty bad.
It might work out for the best by forcing a more stalker heavy army, which would force toss to not only have less zealots to tank but also use up more gas. Just throwing the idea around really.
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On May 06 2011 08:38 TimeSpiral wrote:
Why are people arguing about the Strike Cannon one-shot killing Immortals?
That is the whole idea behind the Strike Cannon. To neutralize a single target. The Thor is a single target DPS unit. The Immortal is not supposed to counter the Thor in a 1:1 ratio. That is just silly. The Thor is higher tech, more expensive (by a lot), the ability is activated and researched. Are you guys really upset that we can neutralize one of your a+clicked Immortals in this scenario?
Protoss essentially gets a Thor equivalent as their initial robotics attacking unit. It's less expensive, more nimble, doesn't require research, and can easily be rushed to with most common Protoss openings.
The Immortal is fine, and so was the Thor.
b/c in PvT it is much more practical to open robo than it is to open stargate. Immo is only thing we have to defend against thor strike cannon timing push. If immos get nuetralized p is toast, every time.
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I don't know . From what if seen if the opponent reacts to be building BC by just building pure Mass Stalker with Blink and Upgrades BC's get pretty bad. You most likely won't get enough Marauders with Medivacs to Support the BC against the Stalkers. BC's eat alot of Supply and yeah Marauders are great against Stalker but not if the Stalkers outnumber them bigtime.and have Blink.
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On May 06 2011 09:50 J.E.G. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 08:38 TimeSpiral wrote:
Why are people arguing about the Strike Cannon one-shot killing Immortals?
That is the whole idea behind the Strike Cannon. To neutralize a single target. The Thor is a single target DPS unit. The Immortal is not supposed to counter the Thor in a 1:1 ratio. That is just silly. The Thor is higher tech, more expensive (by a lot), the ability is activated and researched. Are you guys really upset that we can neutralize one of your a+clicked Immortals in this scenario?
Protoss essentially gets a Thor equivalent as their initial robotics attacking unit. It's less expensive, more nimble, doesn't require research, and can easily be rushed to with most common Protoss openings.
The Immortal is fine, and so was the Thor.
b/c in PvT it is much more practical to open robo than it is to open stargate. Immo is only thing we have to defend against thor strike cannon timing push. If immos get nuetralized p is toast, every time.
I watch A LOT of professional TvP. I cannot think of a single Terran winning a game with the Strike Cannon timing push.
I'm not tryin' to be an ass, seriously, but if it were the perfect strat it would be used much, much more often.
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On May 06 2011 09:50 J.E.G. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 08:38 TimeSpiral wrote:
Why are people arguing about the Strike Cannon one-shot killing Immortals?
That is the whole idea behind the Strike Cannon. To neutralize a single target. The Thor is a single target DPS unit. The Immortal is not supposed to counter the Thor in a 1:1 ratio. That is just silly. The Thor is higher tech, more expensive (by a lot), the ability is activated and researched. Are you guys really upset that we can neutralize one of your a+clicked Immortals in this scenario?
Protoss essentially gets a Thor equivalent as their initial robotics attacking unit. It's less expensive, more nimble, doesn't require research, and can easily be rushed to with most common Protoss openings.
The Immortal is fine, and so was the Thor.
b/c in PvT it is much more practical to open robo than it is to open stargate. Immo is only thing we have to defend against thor strike cannon timing push. If immos get nuetralized p is toast, every time.
You just basically counter argued your own point. The scary Terran-Thor-Timing-Push was scary because it was effective against the normal builds of Protoss. You have to adapt and yeah, maybe get a Stargate. Not scouting and not reacting, doesn't mean something needs to be nerfed. You may be right, maybe Thors were imba. But whats stupid is that we'll never find out, because before we could explore a new and unexplored strategy at all, Blizzard nerfed it to hell. 150 energy? Seriously? Just tooooo much. It took Terrans so long to start to figure this out, and before giving Protoss the time to think of how to beat it, they remove it. Dumb.
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On May 06 2011 09:57 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 09:50 J.E.G. wrote:On May 06 2011 08:38 TimeSpiral wrote:
Why are people arguing about the Strike Cannon one-shot killing Immortals?
That is the whole idea behind the Strike Cannon. To neutralize a single target. The Thor is a single target DPS unit. The Immortal is not supposed to counter the Thor in a 1:1 ratio. That is just silly. The Thor is higher tech, more expensive (by a lot), the ability is activated and researched. Are you guys really upset that we can neutralize one of your a+clicked Immortals in this scenario?
Protoss essentially gets a Thor equivalent as their initial robotics attacking unit. It's less expensive, more nimble, doesn't require research, and can easily be rushed to with most common Protoss openings.
The Immortal is fine, and so was the Thor.
b/c in PvT it is much more practical to open robo than it is to open stargate. Immo is only thing we have to defend against thor strike cannon timing push. If immos get nuetralized p is toast, every time. I watch A LOT of professional TvP. I cannot think of a single Terran winning a game with the Strike Cannon timing push. I'm not tryin' to be an ass, seriously, but if it were the perfect strat it would be used much, much more often.
If that were the only change on the PTR then you'd have a point, it's not. Ghosts have much better synergy with a gas heavy unit like thors now and ontop of that protoss are just simply going to have less gateway units before warpgates are out now, the only compensation for slower warpgate are faster sentries but thors just crush through forcefields.
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Most Terran would be fine with the Thor having Energy if the Ability wouldn't cost something ridicolous like 150 . Make it 100 and i'm totally fine with it , but nobody will ever get 150 Energy on a good amount of Thors before HT's are out. There's no justification for the amount the of Energy the Ability will cost. It wasn't used with 150 Energy before and won't be again.
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Nerfing 4 gate only matters in pvp because it happens every game. WHEN IS THE COLOSSUS NERF COMING! 30 damage a shot to an area of 2. Why don't pros just mass them every game so blizzard has to nerf it?
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On May 06 2011 10:18 LittleKrums wrote:
Nerfing 4 gate only matters in pvp because it happens every game. WHEN IS THE COLOSSUS NERF COMING! 30 damage a shot to an area of 2. Why don't pros just mass them every game so blizzard has to nerf it?
That was just about everything page 200 needed for making this thread go full-retard...
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does anyone have the eta regarding when this patch might go live?
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On May 06 2011 10:27 JiYan wrote:
does anyone have the eta regarding when this patch might go live?
I think we might see another one ptr before release.
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On May 06 2011 10:04 Skank wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 09:50 J.E.G. wrote:On May 06 2011 08:38 TimeSpiral wrote:
Why are people arguing about the Strike Cannon one-shot killing Immortals?
That is the whole idea behind the Strike Cannon. To neutralize a single target. The Thor is a single target DPS unit. The Immortal is not supposed to counter the Thor in a 1:1 ratio. That is just silly. The Thor is higher tech, more expensive (by a lot), the ability is activated and researched. Are you guys really upset that we can neutralize one of your a+clicked Immortals in this scenario?
Protoss essentially gets a Thor equivalent as their initial robotics attacking unit. It's less expensive, more nimble, doesn't require research, and can easily be rushed to with most common Protoss openings.
The Immortal is fine, and so was the Thor.
b/c in PvT it is much more practical to open robo than it is to open stargate. Immo is only thing we have to defend against thor strike cannon timing push. If immos get nuetralized p is toast, every time. You just basically counter argued your own point. The scary Terran-Thor-Timing-Push was scary because it was effective against the normal builds of Protoss. You have to adapt and yeah, maybe get a Stargate. Not scouting and not reacting, doesn't mean something needs to be nerfed. You may be right, maybe Thors were imba. But whats stupid is that we'll never find out, because before we could explore a new and unexplored strategy at all, Blizzard nerfed it to hell. 150 energy? Seriously? Just tooooo much. It took Terrans so long to start to figure this out, and before giving Protoss the time to think of how to beat it, they remove it. Dumb.
On May 06 2011 10:04 Skank wrote:You just basically counter argued your own point. The scary Terran-Thor-Timing-Push was scary because it was effective against the normal builds of Protoss. You have to adapt and yeah, maybe get a Stargate. Not scouting and not reacting, doesn't mean something needs to be nerfed.
Hey. Once there are marines out, Protoss gets no information on what Terran is doing beyond "teching" or "bio" until they have an observer or stargate unit in the Terran's base. At that point, you see Thors, and if you've got a Robo, it's too late to get a Stargate and start building air units.
The normal builds of Protoss are normal because they don't lose to 3-rax stim pushes as a build order loss while getting detection out in time to not die to cloaked banshees. Maybe if Blizzard took cloak off of Banshees, Protoss wouldn't need to get a Robo by default when they see that the Terran is teching. But because of Banshee cloak, Protoss need to get a Robo when the Terran techs. Once the Observer sees a Thor build, Protoss has time to get 2, maybe 3 Immortals before the push reaches them, 2 of which will be die without dealing damage due to strike cannons.
In short, it's not a matter of bad scouting or wanting to have Immortals counter Thors 1:1, but rather that Protoss has to get a Robo if the Terran techs, and once they see Thors, they really don't have time to get much more than 1:1 Immortal:Thor.
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EPT
