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On April 24 2011 15:11 Tachion wrote:
I was curious how the GSL stats supported MVP's claim that big maps made Terran weaker, so I went back and took all the race stats on Crevasse, Tal'Darim, and Terminus(the 3 biggest new maps) from GSTL 1 & 2, GSL WC(the tournament rounds), GSL Mar code S & A & up/down, and GSL May code S & A so far. Here's where we stand with wins between the match-ups.
Terminus RE
ZvT - 5/4
TvP - 10/7
ZvP - 5/5
Tal'Darim Altar
ZvT - 4/9
TvP - 13/7
ZvP - 6/5
Crevasse
ZvT - 6/9
TvP - 3/1
ZvP - 2/4
Totals:
ZvT - 15/22 Terran wins 59%
TvP - 26/15 Terran wins 63%
ZvP - 13/14 Protoss wins 52%
Looks like Terrans are still kicking butt in Korea.
You can't be serious posting this...
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Ty Artosis. Great stuff like always. Thanks to Hwanii also!
Wow progamers still favor DT-35 Keyboards, but Nestea, I think was using a Steelseries 6gv2!!
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On April 24 2011 15:35 cozzE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 15:11 Tachion wrote:
I was curious how the GSL stats supported MVP's claim that big maps made Terran weaker, so I went back and took all the race stats on Crevasse, Tal'Darim, and Terminus(the 3 biggest new maps) from GSTL 1 & 2, GSL WC(the tournament rounds), GSL Mar code S & A & up/down, and GSL May code S & A so far. Here's where we stand with wins between the match-ups.
Terminus RE
ZvT - 5/4
TvP - 10/7
ZvP - 5/5
Tal'Darim Altar
ZvT - 4/9
TvP - 13/7
ZvP - 6/5
Crevasse
ZvT - 6/9
TvP - 3/1
ZvP - 2/4
Totals:
ZvT - 15/22 Terran wins 59%
TvP - 26/15 Terran wins 63%
ZvP - 13/14 Protoss wins 52%
Looks like Terrans are still kicking butt in Korea. You can't be serious posting this...
Hm? "Terran is the worst right now, in GSL maps" from the interview. Specifically large maps as he mentioned. So I took every stat available from every pro game played on the new large maps and it doesn't support what MVP claimed. I can certainly understand his reasoning that it's harder than it was before, but Terran being the worst? I don't see it.
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Well, you heard it from the man himself. Losira chose zerg because he wants to a-move and it's easy!
+ Show Spoiler + wait wtf? was that a mistranslation?
On April 24 2011 15:35 cozzE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 15:11 Tachion wrote:
I was curious how the GSL stats supported MVP's claim that big maps made Terran weaker, so I went back and took all the race stats on Crevasse, Tal'Darim, and Terminus(the 3 biggest new maps) from GSTL 1 & 2, GSL WC(the tournament rounds), GSL Mar code S & A & up/down, and GSL May code S & A so far. Here's where we stand with wins between the match-ups.
Terminus RE
ZvT - 5/4
TvP - 10/7
ZvP - 5/5
Tal'Darim Altar
ZvT - 4/9
TvP - 13/7
ZvP - 6/5
Crevasse
ZvT - 6/9
TvP - 3/1
ZvP - 2/4
Totals:
ZvT - 15/22 Terran wins 59%
TvP - 26/15 Terran wins 63%
ZvP - 13/14 Protoss wins 52%
Looks like Terrans are still kicking butt in Korea. You can't be serious posting this...
uhh why not?
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that vikings had such high dps on the ground.
Yeah no. The "high DPS" comes from having half your food count army-wise put into them. They're slightly less then 2 non-stimmed marines or just above one stimmed marine for 150/75.
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artosis is too awesome to be a human
he must be a protoss in a human body
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I think Hwanni had some trouble translating Losira's response to Artosis' balance question. He stumbled with the translation a bit and ultimately didn't get across what Losira was trying to say.
As a Korean speaker, I didn't hear Losira say anything about the need to constantly "counterattack," as Hwanni claimed.
Losira actually said that the reason he thinks Zerg is the weakest race at the moment is because Terran and Protoss have more of an ability to take the initiative with their build orders in the early game. As a result, Zerg must constantly "match" what Protoss and Terran are doing in the early game just to survive. He said that IF a Zerg succeeds in "matching" the Terran or Protoss early on, THEN two opponents will battle it out and win or lose based on skill later in the game. Essentially, the skill of the Zerg player wouldn't even be showcased unless he survived later into the game without taking too much damage from the various tactics Terran and Protoss could use in the early game. So two opponents of equal skill (one being Zerg) would have a completely fair fight only after the Zerg were to make it past a certain point relatively unscathed, having responded correctly to all the different pressures.
Losira mentioned that if a Zerg gets this process of "matching" even slightly wrong, he simply gets rolled early on, ending the game rather abruptly. When Zerg wins, it's because this process was done perfectly, and this is what is the hard part about Zerg.
I assume by "matching," Losira means drone production vs unit production vs correct counter to potentially deadly harass/all-ins/early timing pushes. I'm not saying this is what I personally think, but I'm pretty sure this is what Losira was trying to express in Korean, which got lost in translation via Hwanni. I think Hwanni mistranslated "matching" to "counterattacking" and said a bunch of things that Losira didn't even mention lol.
PS Also, the IM coach mentioned nothing about Greg "Idra" Fields being a bad fit for IM. Hwanni added that in by himself. Of course.... this doesn't necessarily mean that the coach doesn't agree with Hwanni. But whatever. Just trying to clear some things up.
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LoL, Terran is the worst race of all ?.....yeah cleary, I would probably say this to if my beloved GSL ranking drops like hell.
Interesting....can not await MC saying this with Protoss when the next patch will nerf Colossi and 4gates....
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On April 24 2011 15:58 manicshock wrote:Yeah no. The "high DPS" comes from having half your food count army-wise put into them. They're slightly less then 2 non-stimmed marines or just above one stimmed marine for 150/75.
However, the majority of terrans (not the pros, the average player) seems to subconsciously think that vikings are useless on the ground. That is not really the case, they are simply spoiled by stimmed bio-balls. Vikings can actually deal efficiently with zealot/stalkers. They are pretty much the same as the goliaths on the ground.
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On April 24 2011 14:35 Chainfire99 wrote:
Please somebody convince me that large maps don't hurt terran and favor the other races? Please....I want to learn these magical secrets!
Why does someone have to convince you that they don't? Even if they do hurt the Terrans, it's entirely possible that the Terrans were too strong on smaller maps, and thus the larger maps help bring things into balance.
On April 24 2011 15:52 Drowsy wrote:Well, you heard it from the man himself. Losira chose zerg because he wants to a-move and it's easy! + Show Spoiler + wait wtf? was that a mistranslation? Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 15:35 cozzE wrote:On April 24 2011 15:11 Tachion wrote:
I was curious how the GSL stats supported MVP's claim that big maps made Terran weaker, so I went back and took all the race stats on Crevasse, Tal'Darim, and Terminus(the 3 biggest new maps) from GSTL 1 & 2, GSL WC(the tournament rounds), GSL Mar code S & A & up/down, and GSL May code S & A so far. Here's where we stand with wins between the match-ups.
Terminus RE
ZvT - 5/4
TvP - 10/7
ZvP - 5/5
Tal'Darim Altar
ZvT - 4/9
TvP - 13/7
ZvP - 6/5
Crevasse
ZvT - 6/9
TvP - 3/1
ZvP - 2/4
Totals:
ZvT - 15/22 Terran wins 59%
TvP - 26/15 Terran wins 63%
ZvP - 13/14 Protoss wins 52%
Looks like Terrans are still kicking butt in Korea. You can't be serious posting this... uhh why not?
Because it's evidence. And you can't post evidence in a thread about who's the weakest race. I mean, that might lead to objective determinations or something, rather than speculation based entirely on subjective impressions.
And we can't have that, now can we?
On April 24 2011 16:07 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 15:58 manicshock wrote:that vikings had such high dps on the ground. Yeah no. The "high DPS" comes from having half your food count army-wise put into them. They're slightly less then 2 non-stimmed marines or just above one stimmed marine for 150/75. However, the majority of terrans (not the pros, the average player) seems to subconsciously think that vikings are useless on the ground. That is not really the case, they are simply spoiled by stimmed bio-balls. Vikings can actually deal efficiently with zealot/stalkers. They are pretty much the same as the goliaths on the ground.
There's a difference between "Vikings are useful on the ground" and "deal efficiently with zealots/stalkers." They're not a unit that cost-effectively deals with Zealots or Stalkers. However, they are a unit that, after their primary work is done, can add their DPS to an attack.
Unlike, say, Corruptors, which are a pretty much waste of resources after they kill off all of the flying stuff (unless you turn them into Brood Lords).
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On April 24 2011 15:35 cozzE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 15:11 Tachion wrote:
I was curious how the GSL stats supported MVP's claim that big maps made Terran weaker, so I went back and took all the race stats on Crevasse, Tal'Darim, and Terminus(the 3 biggest new maps) from GSTL 1 & 2, GSL WC(the tournament rounds), GSL Mar code S & A & up/down, and GSL May code S & A so far. Here's where we stand with wins between the match-ups.
Terminus RE
ZvT - 5/4
TvP - 10/7
ZvP - 5/5
Tal'Darim Altar
ZvT - 4/9
TvP - 13/7
ZvP - 6/5
Crevasse
ZvT - 6/9
TvP - 3/1
ZvP - 2/4
Totals:
ZvT - 15/22 Terran wins 59%
TvP - 26/15 Terran wins 63%
ZvP - 13/14 Protoss wins 52%
Looks like Terrans are still kicking butt in Korea. You can't be serious posting this...
It's nothing new, the GSL Terrans have always been stronger as a whole than the GSL Zerg or Protoss. Terran has made every final but one. MVP has 2 GSL wins and Marineking 3 GSL runnerups alone. Over half (13/24) of all GSL semifinalists and finalists (7/12) have been Terrans. If you include code A it becomes even more Terran heavy. The only thing that would be newsworthy is if this Terran GSL dominance ever ends, not that it is continuing.
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On April 24 2011 16:11 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 14:35 Chainfire99 wrote:
Please somebody convince me that large maps don't hurt terran and favor the other races? Please....I want to learn these magical secrets! Why does someone have to convince you that they don't? Even if they do hurt the Terrans, it's entirely possible that the Terrans were too strong on smaller maps, and thus the larger maps help bring things into balance. Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 15:52 Drowsy wrote:Well, you heard it from the man himself. Losira chose zerg because he wants to a-move and it's easy! + Show Spoiler + wait wtf? was that a mistranslation? On April 24 2011 15:35 cozzE wrote:On April 24 2011 15:11 Tachion wrote:
I was curious how the GSL stats supported MVP's claim that big maps made Terran weaker, so I went back and took all the race stats on Crevasse, Tal'Darim, and Terminus(the 3 biggest new maps) from GSTL 1 & 2, GSL WC(the tournament rounds), GSL Mar code S & A & up/down, and GSL May code S & A so far. Here's where we stand with wins between the match-ups.
Terminus RE
ZvT - 5/4
TvP - 10/7
ZvP - 5/5
Tal'Darim Altar
ZvT - 4/9
TvP - 13/7
ZvP - 6/5
Crevasse
ZvT - 6/9
TvP - 3/1
ZvP - 2/4
Totals:
ZvT - 15/22 Terran wins 59%
TvP - 26/15 Terran wins 63%
ZvP - 13/14 Protoss wins 52%
Looks like Terrans are still kicking butt in Korea. You can't be serious posting this... uhh why not? Because it's evidence. And you can't post evidence in a thread about who's the weakest race. I mean, that might lead to objective determinations or something, rather than speculation based entirely on subjective impressions. And we can't have that, now can we?
There isn't much valid statistical inference you can take from that data due to discrepancies in player skill and build order (i.e. the number of all-in games).
edit: it's not a thread about who is the weakest race, the thread title is just a quote to hype the interviews
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On April 24 2011 15:58 manicshock wrote:Yeah no. The "high DPS" comes from having half your food count army-wise put into them. They're slightly less then 2 non-stimmed marines or just above one stimmed marine for 150/75.
Errr...ONE non-stimmed marine has a higher dps than a stalker, which is 125/50. And the ground attack is the viking's backup role, so I don't think that is really something to complain about if it is just less than TWO non-stimmed marines.
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On April 24 2011 16:14 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 15:58 manicshock wrote:that vikings had such high dps on the ground. Yeah no. The "high DPS" comes from having half your food count army-wise put into them. They're slightly less then 2 non-stimmed marines or just above one stimmed marine for 150/75. Errr...ONE non-stimmed marine has a higher dps than a stalker, which is 125/50. And the ground attack is the viking's backup role, so I don't think that is really something to complain about if it is just less than TWO non-stimmed marines.
For 125/50 you also get an additional 120 or so HP...
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On April 24 2011 16:13 space_yes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 16:11 NicolBolas wrote:On April 24 2011 14:35 Chainfire99 wrote:
Please somebody convince me that large maps don't hurt terran and favor the other races? Please....I want to learn these magical secrets! Why does someone have to convince you that they don't? Even if they do hurt the Terrans, it's entirely possible that the Terrans were too strong on smaller maps, and thus the larger maps help bring things into balance. On April 24 2011 15:52 Drowsy wrote:Well, you heard it from the man himself. Losira chose zerg because he wants to a-move and it's easy! + Show Spoiler + wait wtf? was that a mistranslation? On April 24 2011 15:35 cozzE wrote:On April 24 2011 15:11 Tachion wrote:
I was curious how the GSL stats supported MVP's claim that big maps made Terran weaker, so I went back and took all the race stats on Crevasse, Tal'Darim, and Terminus(the 3 biggest new maps) from GSTL 1 & 2, GSL WC(the tournament rounds), GSL Mar code S & A & up/down, and GSL May code S & A so far. Here's where we stand with wins between the match-ups.
Terminus RE
ZvT - 5/4
TvP - 10/7
ZvP - 5/5
Tal'Darim Altar
ZvT - 4/9
TvP - 13/7
ZvP - 6/5
Crevasse
ZvT - 6/9
TvP - 3/1
ZvP - 2/4
Totals:
ZvT - 15/22 Terran wins 59%
TvP - 26/15 Terran wins 63%
ZvP - 13/14 Protoss wins 52%
Looks like Terrans are still kicking butt in Korea. You can't be serious posting this... uhh why not? Because it's evidence. And you can't post evidence in a thread about who's the weakest race. I mean, that might lead to objective determinations or something, rather than speculation based entirely on subjective impressions. And we can't have that, now can we? There isn't much valid statistic inference you can take from that data due to discrepancies in player skill and build order (i.e. the number of all-in games).
Perhaps there's an argument to be made for that, but you're going to need to provide evidence to support this position. Namely, some objective way to measure "player skill" (good luck with that), the number of all-in games that happened within that GSL. And most importantly, an argument that states that all-ins should be disregarded for the purposes of determining imbalance.
Statistics provide the most effective objective means for determining imbalances. So arguing against the statistics will require stronger objective evidence.
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On April 24 2011 16:17 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 16:13 space_yes wrote:On April 24 2011 16:11 NicolBolas wrote:On April 24 2011 14:35 Chainfire99 wrote:
Please somebody convince me that large maps don't hurt terran and favor the other races? Please....I want to learn these magical secrets! Why does someone have to convince you that they don't? Even if they do hurt the Terrans, it's entirely possible that the Terrans were too strong on smaller maps, and thus the larger maps help bring things into balance. On April 24 2011 15:52 Drowsy wrote:Well, you heard it from the man himself. Losira chose zerg because he wants to a-move and it's easy! + Show Spoiler + wait wtf? was that a mistranslation? On April 24 2011 15:35 cozzE wrote:On April 24 2011 15:11 Tachion wrote:
I was curious how the GSL stats supported MVP's claim that big maps made Terran weaker, so I went back and took all the race stats on Crevasse, Tal'Darim, and Terminus(the 3 biggest new maps) from GSTL 1 & 2, GSL WC(the tournament rounds), GSL Mar code S & A & up/down, and GSL May code S & A so far. Here's where we stand with wins between the match-ups.
Terminus RE
ZvT - 5/4
TvP - 10/7
ZvP - 5/5
Tal'Darim Altar
ZvT - 4/9
TvP - 13/7
ZvP - 6/5
Crevasse
ZvT - 6/9
TvP - 3/1
ZvP - 2/4
Totals:
ZvT - 15/22 Terran wins 59%
TvP - 26/15 Terran wins 63%
ZvP - 13/14 Protoss wins 52%
Looks like Terrans are still kicking butt in Korea. You can't be serious posting this... uhh why not? Because it's evidence. And you can't post evidence in a thread about who's the weakest race. I mean, that might lead to objective determinations or something, rather than speculation based entirely on subjective impressions. And we can't have that, now can we? There isn't much valid statistic inference you can take from that data due to discrepancies in player skill and build order (i.e. the number of all-in games). Perhaps there's an argument to be made for that, but you're going to need to provide evidence to support this position. Namely, some objective way to measure "player skill" (good luck with that), the number of all-in games that happened within that GSL. And most importantly, an argument that states that all-ins should be disregarded for the purposes of determining imbalance. Statistics provide the most effective objective means for determining imbalances. So arguing against the statistics will require stronger objective evidence.
are you trolling?
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Why must these threads derail into balance arguments? Sigh..this is what TL has turned into.
I really wonder why IM has no sponsors and doesn't get invitations to international tournaments. Like seriously? The best players/team in the world need to get around a bit. I hope it's not for reasons such as bilingual issues like Mvp mentioned, because I'm sure people would be more than willing to help translate to get a chance to see these guys in foreign tournys.
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What about TL's commitment to avoid the balance posts that plague the SC2 forums? Couldn't this thread have been better titled, "Pro-gamers Give Their Take on the State of the Game" or something?
Anyhow, a lot of GSL Terrans spent a lot of time perfecting one-base all-ins and other shenanigans that aren't practical after the recent nerfs and the change to larger maps in GSL. Let's wait and see. There are still plenty of sick timing pushes for Terran, and it's not as though drops have gotten any less effective. But the larger maps definitely highlight how painfully immobile Terran can be - even Medivacs aren't that fast.
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It's a quote to hype the interviews..
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These players can say all they want about balance but the results in GSL and tournaments around the world speak for themselves.
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EPT
