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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
none are set to private, but if they come up as such, just check out www.artosis.tv and you will be able to access them. no idea why thats happening, i assume it will go away soon. IM House Tour MVP Interviewed - "Terran is the weakest race" NesTea, on being the God Zerg, and how much he teaches LosirA IM Head Coach on IM's plans, including foreigners! LosirA, rising star, tells his secrets on how he started owning everyone so hard! YongHwa PvP Tips EnjoY~ | ||
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Jeremyy
Canada182 Posts
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FliedLice
Germany7494 Posts
i just wanted to go to bed, now this ._. stealing my sleep! | ||
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Jitensha
Sweden68 Posts
Thank you for the interviews <3 | ||
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
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GreyKnight
United States4720 Posts
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wonderwall
New Zealand695 Posts
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LEEKsc
Sweden380 Posts
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Jerax
Canada189 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
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Monasou
United States218 Posts
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Skipton
United States707 Posts
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red4ce
United States7313 Posts
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KentHenry
United States260 Posts
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hoTspur
United States7 Posts
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Maliris
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
 love these videos | ||
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OmniscientSC2
United States713 Posts
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Flameling
United States413 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
edit: nvm. vids now working for me. looking forward to MVP's stuff. | ||
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Klamity
United States994 Posts
also, the little kid in the karate (tae kwan do?) and artosis is hilarious in the first video. "it's nestea's jacket. i can feel it radiating." "omg a void ray." "omg, two void rays!" | ||
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
On April 24 2011 11:33 eviltomahawk wrote: Woah, very sensationalist title right there. lol, yeah. Anyways, great stuff! Hopefully the videos put on private can be unlocked. | ||
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Fedor
United States42 Posts
Toss and Zerg op. It's not beta anymore. | ||
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RoyaleBrainSlug
United States295 Posts
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zyzq
United States3123 Posts
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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CodECleaR
United States395 Posts
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Kznn
Brazil9072 Posts
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eluv
United States1251 Posts
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Klamity
United States994 Posts
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Headnoob
Australia2108 Posts
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quentel
349 Posts
Everytime I hear the "Artosis has won the Championship!" WP ad at the end of every IPL I can't help but grin. | ||
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mols0n
Canada388 Posts
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UberThing
Great Britain410 Posts
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Vonthin
United States2864 Posts
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FliedLice
Germany7494 Posts
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
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DarkRise
1644 Posts
I'm glad they acknowledge foreign players and see them as equal. | ||
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Hokay
United States738 Posts
On April 24 2011 11:47 UberThing wrote: If the interviews could be edited so the korean buts are taken out/dubbed over, this would be awesome. They are like 50% longer than they should be It's already awesome that Artosis used up his own time to give these interviews and videos that we would probably otherwise never get. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. | ||
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imareaver3
United States906 Posts
On April 24 2011 11:49 StarcraftMan wrote: I'm glad that IMMVP has come out to admit that Terran is the weakest race now. The cumulative changes by Blizzard to Terran has really hurt the Terran race. That is a refershing viewpoint coming from IMMVP, the best Terran player in the world, as IMMVP knows the strengths and weaknesses of the Terran race the best. And NesTea--the best Zerg in the world--said the exact opposite. There's quite a bit of bias in these interviews. | ||
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Fouf
Canada34 Posts
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Khanz
France214 Posts
Protoss: play a lot and you will be unbeatable Zerg: hum... T.T" I think i can go sleep now. | ||
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dtz
5834 Posts
So don't take this too seriously =D | ||
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zyglrox
United States1168 Posts
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
On April 24 2011 11:36 Fedor wrote: Glad somebody said it. Toss and Zerg op. It's not beta anymore. Yeah, IMMVP is really feeling the pressure after dropping to Code A. I was surprised that IMMVP was so candid to admit that Terran is the weakest race but since he is the best Terran player in the world, he knows what he is talking about. | ||
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DarkRise
1644 Posts
On April 24 2011 11:49 StarcraftMan wrote: I'm glad that IMMVP has come out to admit that Terran is the weakest race now. The cumulative changes by Blizzard to Terran has really hurt the Terran race. That is a refershing viewpoint coming from IMMVP, the best Terran player in the world, as IMMVP knows the strengths and weaknesses of the Terran race the best. To be honest, you have to give credit to protoss and zerg for working so hard making strats just to be on equal terms. Yes, Terran has been hurt by a lot of nerfs but do you think terrans made a significant effort and not just rely on the strat that works so strong before. Look at Thorzain, this guy coming out of nowhere revolutionizing TVP beating MC and Tyler. I just think that Terran players are just lazing around relying on things that works before. It's not the race but the actual player. | ||
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Shaxe
Netherlands590 Posts
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Raeleigh
Canada902 Posts
Artosis and Hwanni make a good team! :D | ||
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DarkRise
1644 Posts
On April 24 2011 11:56 Shaxe wrote: People definitely need to send invites to Mvp and Nestea, I'd kill to watch them play a foreign LAN event. They been invited to TSL, they haven't applied to NASL. I also don't see them on FXOpen or either IEM. I think the team is weak concerning foreign affairs. They better get a good manager to exploit their members more. | ||
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Brad
2754 Posts
On April 24 2011 11:47 UberThing wrote: If the interviews could be edited so the korean buts are taken out/dubbed over, this would be awesome. They are like 50% longer than they should be Just fast forward through the Korean answers, problem solved. | ||
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ItsMeDomLee
Canada2732 Posts
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
Maybe hardest to play, but even that is stretching it. | ||
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zyzq
United States3123 Posts
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
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Pabi
Germany126 Posts
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JKira
Canada1002 Posts
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SilverPotato
United States560 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:00 Mailing wrote: Weakest? Hardly. Maybe hardest to play, but even that is stretching it. I'm sorry but it's not beta anymore... Yeah T is much harder than zerg and especially toss. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10325 Posts
They been invited to TSL, they haven't applied to NASL. I also don't see them on FXOpen or either IEM. I think the team is weak concerning foreign affairs. They better get a good manager to exploit their members more. Lol the way you say "exploit" makes it sound inhumane =O xD But yeah, I wanna see more koreans in foreign tournies! :D | ||
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Paradice
New Zealand431 Posts
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Barett
Canada454 Posts
Thanks for another great house tour/Interviews. :D | ||
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:04 SilverPotato wrote: I'm sorry but it's not beta anymore... Yeah, then you ruined it. What the hell does not being beta have to do with anything? Terran was confirmed overpowered after months of crushing tourney results, and nerfed. Now they are doing well. They are not doing bad nor are they doing too good, terran is pretty good right now. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Nothingtosay
United States875 Posts
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crms
United States11933 Posts
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Techno
1900 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:06 Mailing wrote: terran is pretty good right now. Sigh, fuck it. Terran at the highest level is definitely the most awesome race. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:08 Alejandrisha wrote: So trueYou heard it here. The force is strong with dimaga Thanks for all the great interviews artosis, now go interview slayers clan! | ||
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SilverPotato
United States560 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:06 Mailing wrote: What the hell does not being beta have to do with anything? Terran was confirmed overpowered after months of crushing tourney results, and nerfed. Now they are doing well. They are not doing bad nor are they doing too good, terran is pretty good right now. Yeah those months of winning are from the first patches, you make it sound like race takes time to lose power, when really one patch can throw the entire game off kilter. You also seem to be blowing my speculation that T is UP out of preposition. I don't think it's impossible to win as Terran, just from what I've seen, Terran has to put a higher level of work in to get a win than say... Protoss (respect for you Zerg players out there). | ||
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XothermeK
United Arab Emirates245 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15658 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:10 Nothingtosay wrote: I think this just reinforces how people how people who the best at game are not necessarily the best at balancing a game. And yet every time Idra comments on balance, we get 45345436 threads asking "(Zerg unit) is it viable anymore" "Zerg - an inherent disadvantage?" "Can Zerg compete at the highest level?" | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:11 XothermeK wrote: Yes MVP, you are right, Terran is definitely the weakest race... How the fuck should you know? User was warned for this post | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
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zoLo
United States5896 Posts
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slicknav
1409 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:14 DooMDash wrote: I agree Terran is weakest on these big maps. But I play Terran so I may be biased. agreed. It takes a while to re-enforce your army when your pushing towards your opponents base. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:04 SilverPotato wrote: I'm sorry but it's not beta anymore... Yeah T is much harder than zerg and especially toss. How? Mechanically? Zerg is clearly harder mechanically, just the nature of the race and balancing drone/unit production. | ||
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babyToSS
233 Posts
Having said that TvP is pretty hard atm and it has quite a lot to do with bio without stim being not really that good against toss. The late stim does a lot more than take out stim rushes (they were kinda lame anyways) but it makes early game toss alot more safer which sets them up for a much stronger mid-game. Mech is definitely a viable choice but watching pro matches is a lot different than playing it and mech positioning is so darn unforgiving in TvP that I much rather prefer having a bunch of marines against banes. Edit: Balance discussion aside these are really good interviews and is interesting to see pros mirror a little bit of the communities sentiments. | ||
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unoriginalname
England380 Posts
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
Judgement wise, it's a lot harder given how easy it is to lose to unscoutable all-in attacks. | ||
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ilovelings
Argentina776 Posts
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SilverPotato
United States560 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:18 slicknav wrote: agreed. It takes a while to re-enforce your army when your pushing towards your opponents base. Give Terran drop pods wot wot! ^____^ | ||
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Starfox
Austria699 Posts
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?p=FA0D5122DF1354C4 <- Playlist of all those vids | ||
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Horse...falcon
United States1851 Posts
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soupchicken
United States322 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:18 infinity2k9 wrote: How? Mechanically? Zerg is clearly harder mechanically, just the nature of the race and balancing drone/unit production. I play Zerg... and even I think that Terran mechanics are the hardest to do perfectly. But then again I just might be just so used to Zerg that I don't realize how difficult it can be. | ||
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dusthoof
279 Posts
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
Awesome vids Artosis keep it up! | ||
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Draconicfire
Canada2562 Posts
So no sponsors and no foreign-tourney invites? Something is wrong here. | ||
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Noxie
United States2227 Posts
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imjorman
United States580 Posts
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
thx artosis! also agree with MVP's reasons on balance. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
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babyToSS
233 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:21 soupchicken wrote: I play Zerg... and even I think that Terran mechanics are the hardest to do perfectly. But then again I just might be just so used to Zerg that I don't realize how difficult it can be. I play terran quite a bit and some zerg/toss on the side. I think zerg and terran both have difficult mechanics but zerg definitely benefits quite a lot from having quick hands. The hard part about terran is the inertia in production. You have to decide much earlier what units you have to commit to and once you do, it is very difficult to or pretty much impossible to go back on that decision. This particular aspect is a lot more forgiving for the other two races. IMO this is a big part of why the marine is such a versatile unit and the fact that it can get insta-killed in late game is what makes late game TvX quite difficult at the moment. | ||
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Twistacles
Canada1327 Posts
MVP interview is awesome =D He's kinda my hero. Shut up avilo lol | ||
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sigol
United Kingdom134 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:24 avilo wrote: Glad that a high profile Terran player finally said what every other Terran is thinking but doesn't wanna get flamed for you're verging on brain dead. it doesn't matter what changes are made to the game, you're always going to be appalling. User was banned for this post. | ||
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lowercase
Canada1047 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:21 soupchicken wrote: I play Zerg... and even I think that Terran mechanics are the hardest to do perfectly. But then again I just might be just so used to Zerg that I don't realize how difficult it can be. Terran mechanics are finicky, but you're not punished for messing up a bit. Forget a mule? Spam it. Larval injects, on the other hand, are savage if you miss them, and so is forgetting a warp-in cycle for Protoss. Terrans just need to make sure their SCVs aren't idling after building something somewhere. | ||
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Djeez
543 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:21 soupchicken wrote: I play Zerg... and even I think that Terran mechanics are the hardest to do perfectly. But then again I just might be just so used to Zerg that I don't realize how difficult it can be. Agreed. Terran mechanics and micro is way harder than Zerg imo. I think that Zerg requires a better game sense/game knowledge/timings though. And toss? ez | ||
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Baffels
United States1486 Posts
SlayerS house next? :D | ||
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Qibla
Australia343 Posts
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Majesty
Iceland33 Posts
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DZK
Canada40 Posts
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SilverPotato
United States560 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:18 infinity2k9 wrote: How? Mechanically? Zerg is clearly harder mechanically, just the nature of the race and balancing drone/unit production. To be honest balancing drones/unit is way easier than having to constantly remember to every... 17 seconds make SCVs 30 seconds make Marines 45 seconds make Tanks 42 seconds make Vikings With each of those things going at a different pace all in different and constantly changing order. Added to the need to constant add production facilities, expansions, upgrades, and manage building placement, like clockwork over and over again, while managing an army with some of the most micro intensive units (marine micro isn't as easy as it looks, especially when you snap back to your army and see a wall of green rolling towards it) 90% of the games a Terran player loses is because of the added up time of missed unit production resulting in unspent minerals and overall weaker armies. Something that can't happen to Zerg by the nature of your play, and something that doesn't effect a protoss player's play style (usually a P leaves some supply open for warp ins). | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:24 avilo wrote: I dont think one player whining justifies months of your complaining on TL.Glad that a high profile Terran player finally said what every other Terran is thinking but doesn't wanna get flamed for | ||
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I)etox
1240 Posts
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Imerej
Canada291 Posts
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Cabinet Sanchez
Australia1097 Posts
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EZjijy
United States1039 Posts
"After waking from sleep Please clean your spot (Clean well!!) Anything rolling on the floor will be thrown away (socks, clothing, etc.)" | ||
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mads
Canada90 Posts
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:31 uSnAmplified wrote: I dont think one player whining justifies months of your complaining on TL. I don't think mvp was necessarily whining so much as stating a pretty obvious fact that Terran is hard to play on large maps due to the inmobility of their units. Even marines are immobile without dropships (which are very susceptible to ambushes/getting caught). Whether or not that makes T the "hardest" race is totally subjective and debatable - useless as well, I might add. The point is though, that any player of a certain race will say that his race is the hardest to play - just the nature of professional gaming in general. | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:29 SilverPotato wrote: To be honest balancing drones/unit is way easier than having to constantly remember to every... 17 seconds make SCVs 30 seconds make Marines 45 seconds make Tanks 42 seconds make Vikings With each of those things going at a different pace all in different and constantly changing order. Added to the need to constant add production facilities, expansions, upgrades, and manage building placement, like clockwork over and over again, while managing an army with some of the most micro intensive units (marine micro isn't as easy as it looks, especially when you snap back to your army and see a wall of green rolling towards it) 90% of the games a Terran player loses is because of the added up time of missed unit production resulting in unspent minerals and overall weaker armies. Something that can't happen to Zerg by the nature of your play, and something that doesn't effect a protoss player's play style (usually a P leaves some supply open for warp ins). Honestly, all SC2 mechanics are nothing compared to BW. No race is hard compared to BW. You youngins just need to suck it up. Protoss, Terran, and Zerg (yes Zerg too) are not hard. The hard part is not the race mechanics. People need to stop judging which race is harder than which race, because none of that matters. If I am missing production cycles, it's because I'm bad. Not because my race is "hard". | ||
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Gleve
United States206 Posts
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Tabbris
Bangladesh2839 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:38 KevinIX wrote: Honestly, all SC2 mechanics are nothing compared to BW. No race is hard compared to BW. You youngins just need to suck it up. Protoss, Terran, and Zerg (yes Zerg too) are not hard. The hard part is not the race mechanics. People need to stop judging which race is harder than which race, because none of that matters. If I am missing production cycles, it's because I'm bad. Not because my race is "hard". Seriously any Sc2 player thats trys to play terran in sc1 would probably rip his face out | ||
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Enervate
United States1769 Posts
Thx for the interviews Artosis! | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:28 lowercase wrote: Terran mechanics are finicky, but you're not punished for messing up a bit. Forget a mule? Spam it. Larval injects, on the other hand, are savage if you miss them, and so is forgetting a warp-in cycle for Protoss. Terrans just need to make sure their SCVs aren't idling after building something somewhere. There's way more to Starcraft than Mules vs Chronoboost vs Spawn Larva. | ||
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ploy
United States416 Posts
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XothermeK
United Arab Emirates245 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:40 Tabbris wrote: Seriously any Sc2 player thats trys to play terran in sc1 would probably rip his face out This, haha! Been there done that! | ||
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:40 Tabbris wrote: Seriously any Sc2 player thats trys to play terran in sc1 would probably rip his face out Yet mvp has arguably the most recent success of any pro BW player who has switched over. Either way, that's a strawman - mvp wasn't arguing the production mechanics like these guys are, he was merely commenting about map distances affecting racial imbalances. | ||
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.Aar
2177 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:38 KevinIX wrote: Honestly, all SC2 mechanics are nothing compared to BW. No race is hard compared to BW. You youngins just need to suck it up. Protoss, Terran, and Zerg (yes Zerg too) are not hard. Irrelevant. OT: Thanks Artosis! Always great to see more content coming from you. | ||
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Imperium11
United States279 Posts
On another note, this house was so unbelievably better than the Prime and Star Tale ones, the living conditions (although we didn't see the bedrooms) looked much less "cheap." | ||
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Cabinet Sanchez
Australia1097 Posts
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Teael
United States724 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:42 Techno wrote: There's way more to Starcraft than Mules vs Chronoboost vs Spawn Larva. Plus the fact that he's NOT EVEN COMPARING MULES to CHRONOBOOST, but comparing them to warpgates.... How are those even supposed to be in the same catagory.... | ||
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spybreak
United States684 Posts
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soupchicken
United States322 Posts
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groms
Canada1017 Posts
Artosis keep up the house videos man. You are my FAV commentator bar none! LOVE YOU! <3 | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On April 24 2011 11:52 Khanz wrote: "Terran: just play a little bit and you will own Protoss: play a lot and you will be unbeatable Zerg: hum... T.T" I think i can go sleep now. Hahaha,<3 Nestea, you're my favorite SC2 player for a reason | ||
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meep
United States1699 Posts
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peekn
United States1152 Posts
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Aus.Force
Australia1278 Posts
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Xkalibert
United States1404 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:40 Enervate wrote: Lol at the guy who walks in on the MVP interview. Thx for the interviews Artosis! That's IMYongHwa. the protoss player they interview | ||
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Castrophy
United States232 Posts
Thanks a lot for theese videos Artosis I really enjoy them. I'd love it if you could get us inside the Slayers house! | ||
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spybreak
United States684 Posts
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gozima
Canada602 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:38 KevinIX wrote: Honestly, all SC2 mechanics are nothing compared to BW. No race is hard compared to BW. You youngins just need to suck it up. Protoss, Terran, and Zerg (yes Zerg too) are not hard. The hard part is not the race mechanics. People need to stop judging which race is harder than which race, because none of that matters. If I am missing production cycles, it's because I'm bad. Not because my race is "hard". I could not agree more. I don't think it's even humanly possible for Blizz to further dumb down the mechanics in SC2. At the highest levels of play, mechanics aren't what determine whether or not someone wins. | ||
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
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koreanfuture
Canada5 Posts
Artosis: What do you think about Balance? IMNestea: Terran: Practice for just a little while, and you'll be great Protoss: If you get good at it, it just seems unbeatable Zerg: Sad..... That could not have been said any better. Coming from IMNestea :D Pretty much explains the current situation very precisely. | ||
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TrANCE,
301 Posts
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Kolvacs
Canada1203 Posts
Just like Zerg had to adapt against Terran, Terran now has to adapt against Zergs. | ||
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Skipton
United States707 Posts
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Elite__
Canada976 Posts
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Techno
1900 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:04 Kolvacs wrote: The reason Terran seems "weak" is because for MVP, who has been playing since beta, is used to being able to walk to your opponents base in 5 seconds. Fixed your post to make it relevant. Yea, your right. MVP needs to stop hoping for Steppes of War in the GSL. | ||
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-FoX
United States479 Posts
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StyLeD
United States2965 Posts
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-FoX
United States479 Posts
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Mitchlew
Australia428 Posts
MC ges beaten by Thorzain and polt. Jinro beats San and clide beats nestea. Makes sense yo. | ||
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Yuriegh
United States327 Posts
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CheeseGrater
United States290 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:13 Mitchlew wrote: "Terran is weakest race" MC ges beaten by Thorzain and polt. Jinro beats San and clide beats nestea. Makes sense yo. Wow you listed a couple recent results.. great job. Says absolutely nothing toward the overall balance of the game. | ||
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v1p3r52
New Zealand182 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:13 Mitchlew wrote: "Terran is weakest race" MC ges beaten by Thorzain and polt. Jinro beats San and clide beats nestea. Makes sense yo. Watch the video, yo. That title was merely a sensationalist statement to attract more viewers. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
gold level players, honestly | ||
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
Now, whoever is the chosen one better practice their butt off and learn well. | ||
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bluestuff
Canada893 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:15 CheeseGrater wrote: Wow you listed a couple recent results.. great job. Says absolutely nothing toward the overall balance of the game. 11 terrans 1st or 2nd places in 2011 , compared to 9 toss and 6 zerg from the major tounries listed in the liquidpedia.. The WGSL had a tvt final just recently. In the current gsl season there are more terran left then any other race and the tsl is guaranteed to have at least 1 terran in the final. Percentage wise terran have being relatively higher or on par with toss, in representation, in almost every tourney from my quick analysis from liquidpedia. Statistically IMMVP, who admittedly is in a slouch being in code A, really has no argument for terran being "underpowered". | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
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thesums
Taiwan257 Posts
In my opinion generally from watching the games and nominations, TvP: Quite balanced, Protoss with amulet nerf means that some pros like San (who use it a lot) will have to come up with something else. But then again stim timing is delayed too. However I feel if protoss plays a more standard, and do not do anything fancy like early DT or air, they will come up on top. Also have to stay with same upgrades. People are saying thorzain won etcetc, but it was barely, and he always have superior upgrades by A LOT, some are 00 vs 22. *If you are still not convinced and think that Terran is overpowered? Explain why most of the pros prefer to pick terrans in the nominations for GSL? More so than zerg even. TvZ: I think this is quite balanced, and results show that the better player kind of wins. Some zergs are complaining about omg siege tanks blah blah OP, but zergs need to be a bit more creative, some ppl do early broods, roach drops, nydus, high econ banes..etc and these bring results! PvZ: I think this one is quite imbalanced atm. Zerg has to be very creative to win this. I feel if protoss again does not do fancy or greedy builds, a good timing push should kill the zerg. But I have seen spines that can block this... @Mitchlew i feel u are looking at only part of the picture. You are forgetting Jinro losing 2 times to nestea in the same group. And MC did play FE against 3+ rax, one was i believe 1 gate expand and one is pylon expand. On xelnaga, that is risky to pull off... As for San, as he said in the interview, he is disappointed by the amulet nerf, which could say that he is still adapting.... | ||
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Yuriegh
United States327 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:33 rysecake wrote: When Mvp complains about his race, we insult him. When Idra complains about his race, we hop on the train. It's because where IdrA's complaints are legitimate, Mvp's are not. | ||
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birdkicker
United States752 Posts
Lol | ||
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Chicane
United States7875 Posts
As for terran being the weakest... I wouldn't agree that they currently are... however it does seem like the race that will be left behind as the game gets figured out. Between zergs quick armies and nydus worms, and protoss' warp technology, I could definitely see Terran's being left behind as the meta game progresses... but obviously I am not a credible source for that kind of prediction.. it's just something I thought about the other day. | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:35 Yuriegh wrote: It's because where IdrA's complaints are legitimate, Mvp's are not. See what I mean? | ||
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Yuriegh
United States327 Posts
You have failed to even give a reason that terran is UP other than because Mvp said so | ||
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FezTheCaliph
United States492 Posts
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Chicane
United States7875 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:41 Yuriegh wrote: You have failed to even give a reason that terran is UP other than because Mvp said so He's not even arguing whether or not the are UP. He is simply showing how hypocritical you are being... which is no surprise since you took the time to make a separate account to have this conversation so you either wouldn't get banned or so you wouldn't have the zerg icon. | ||
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babyToSS
233 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:41 Yuriegh wrote: You have failed to even give a reason that terran is UP other than because Mvp said so To be honest, title is a little sensational. MVP didn't really say terran is weakest race. His arguments were more along the lines of, maps are now a lot bigger and so (i) early game terran pressure has become weaker against zerg and they can drone up more, (ii) timing pushes against toss have become weaker but warp gate tech with proxy pylons have allowed toss to get around the larger map sizes and their rushes still remain strong. Thus, at the moment he is finding it difficult to win with terran. Take it for what you will. | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:33 rysecake wrote: When Mvp complains about his race, we insult him. When Idra complains about his race, we hop on the train. Yeah, but MVP's race is doing fairly well even after the latest patches. IdrA's is barely getting top 8 if even. | ||
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Darclite
United States1021 Posts
On April 24 2011 11:55 DarkRise wrote: To be honest, you have to give credit to protoss and zerg for working so hard making strats just to be on equal terms. Yes, Terran has been hurt by a lot of nerfs but do you think terrans made a significant effort and not just rely on the strat that works so strong before. Look at Thorzain, this guy coming out of nowhere revolutionizing TVP beating MC and Tyler. I just think that Terran players are just lazing around relying on things that works before. It's not the race but the actual player. This. I mean no offense to Terran players, but I am not seeing the same effort put into learning about the game as I am from Protoss or Zerg. For example, look at the strategy channels on the NA server. The Zerg channel will have 80 people, the Protoss channel will have 70, and the Terran one will have 6. Or, for example, I was surprised to find after discussing the Thorzain games (both after defeating Tyler and today) to find that many Terrans did not know that Thors stunned their targets that were being hit by the 250mm cannons or that vikings had such high dps on the ground. Many who I talk to think that when I say build order, I mean "bio" or "mech." The game isn't far from being balanced, but I am getting sick of seeing "finally someone admits terran is weakest" or "hardest to use" when that is simply untrue. On a lighter note, lol at Artosis in the first vid. | ||
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Yuriegh
United States327 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:43 Chicane wrote: He's not even arguing whether or not the are UP. He is simply showing how hypocritical you are being... which is no surprise since you took the time to make a separate account to have this conversation so you either wouldn't get banned or so you wouldn't have the zerg icon. Wait wait wait you think I am IdrA? | ||
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koreanfuture
Canada5 Posts
Then you can destine your own, by playing Diablo 3. Set your own destiny, go like the facebook site and follow www.diablofans.com (tl.net of Diablo 3) This will be another hell of a ride from Blizzard game, but except the senior design is better than Dustin Bowder. In my opinion, Jay Wilson is far more knowledgable of what to put in the game and what not. And how it will affect the game in the long run. There is no way Jay wilson and his team would have added units like ..... and ...... I'm sure there are multiple units that can go here, Lol. www.facebook.com/diablo www.diablofans.com (Another great community supporing Blizzard games) User was banned for this post. | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:49 Darclite wrote: This. I mean no offense to Terran players, but I am not seeing the same effort put into learning about the game as I am from Protoss or Zerg. For example, look at the strategy channels on the NA server. The Zerg channel will have 80 people, the Protoss channel will have 70, and the Terran one will have 6. Or, for example, I was surprised to find after discussing the Thorzain games (both after defeating Tyler and today) to find that many Terrans did not know that Thors stunned their targets that were being hit by the 250mm cannons or that vikings had such high dps on the ground. Many who I talk to think that when I say build order, I mean "bio" or "mech." The game isn't far from being balanced, but I am getting sick of seeing "finally someone admits terran is weakest" or "hardest to use" when that is simply untrue. On a lighter note, lol at Artosis in the first vid. Terran channel is glitched to only have 5 people per channel. Nice try though. | ||
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Chicane
United States7875 Posts
No... | ||
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Buddhalol
Canada109 Posts
thank you so much sir and continue to make these videos! :DDD ps. switch back to zerg | ||
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Yuriegh
United States327 Posts
then please define what you meant by "which is no surprise since you took the time to make a separate account" | ||
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mikyaJ
1834 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:43 Chicane wrote: He's not even arguing whether or not the are UP. He is simply showing how hypocritical you are being... which is no surprise since you took the time to make a separate account to have this conversation so you either wouldn't get banned or so you wouldn't have the zerg icon. comment of the year | ||
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Chicane
United States7875 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:52 Yuriegh wrote: then please define what you meant by "which is no surprise since you took the time to make a separate account" Really? You pretty much said it yourself. Since you have as many total posts as you do in this thread, you likely made this account just now, and you likely have another one. That being said... this argument is pointless. I don't want to have to continue spelling things out to someone who clearly has nothing to lose by getting into an argument. | ||
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LoliKuma
United States237 Posts
Thank you so much Artosis! Double VR rush @ the IM house! | ||
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Ursadon-n-Pals
United States928 Posts
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SilverPotato
United States560 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:52 Yuriegh wrote: then please define what you meant by "which is no surprise since you took the time to make a separate account" To be perfectly honest, if your playing has lead you to believe Zerg is UP, you should start thinking about ceasing to play SC2, because this game just isn't right for you. | ||
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SwirlQ
United States148 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:28 Djeez wrote: Agreed. Terran mechanics and micro is way harder than Zerg imo. I think that Zerg requires a better game sense/game knowledge/timings though. And toss? ez read my mind. formula for success with toss Good BO + Good FF = win | ||
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Comeh
United States18918 Posts
And of course, thanks artosis! Complete gold, again. | ||
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SilverPotato
United States560 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:56 SwirlQ wrote: read my mind. formula for success with toss Good BO + Good FF = win Don't forget the ability to move around an automatically formed death ball! | ||
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Smigi
United States328 Posts
as far as balance goes, I don't think their is necessarily a 'weakest' race right now. However, I do believe their is a strongest race, which is Protoss. I personally think Protoss's warpgate mechanic is stupid. The ability to make units wherever theres a powerfield is outrageous. Protoss have amazing mobility and their all-in timings are able to be reinforced almost instantly with warpgate. I had the same opinion of warpgate since phase 1 of the beta, and I have the same one now. Once again, I'm not a game designer or on the balance team.. but this is my opinion. Aside from the warpgate mechanic, I don't think theres anything that stands out as a HUGE issue. Although forcefields and collusi are getting a lot of heat lately. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:43 FezTheCaliph wrote: Ok calling it now. IMSEn You mean IMZergKing? | ||
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
Medium-sized maps would be perfect for terran with small maps favoring them too much. | ||
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Toads
Canada1795 Posts
thanks artosis | ||
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MajorityofOne
Canada2506 Posts
As far as balance, people should know that every pro in Korea claims his race is underpowered. That's just how it is, they've been doing it since the first GSL and it has nothing to do with results and more to do with trying, however ineffectually, to influence future balance changes. Nobody who wants to WIN is silly enough to play a race which gives them a clear disadvantage. I know it takes a lot of effort to change races, but thats still far preferable to playing with a clearly inferior race. While I do feel the game is not yet balanced, with Protoss perhaps being a bit strong, if it really was as bad as Nestea claims, "if you try hard with Protoss you can be unbeatable", then we'd see a flood of players (such as Nestea) changing races. | ||
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Horse...falcon
United States1851 Posts
IMFnatic? IMFXO? all baller too | ||
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
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Synk
United States297 Posts
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
Hwani made me LOL so hard at "IM would love to coach a mature, serious foreigner who would be able to practice a lot and get along with others. So Greg [IdrA] would be the last person they'd want!" Thanks Artosis! Your dedication to eSports is unbelievable. | ||
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:14 Chainfire99 wrote: It won't be Dignitas with two of their marquee players expressing the desire to stay in Europe as opposed to playing in Korea (Dimaga, Naniwa). Prolly FXO or EG imo. Naniwa is playing in the Rakaka "Road to Korea" tournament, btw. As for whether or not he wants to stay there - who knows. | ||
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MK4512
Canada938 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:57 SilverPotato wrote: Don't forget the ability to move around an automatically formed death ball! Yes, obviously protoss requires no skill and blindly a-moving results in a win every time, with no actual knowledge of timings, micro or macro at all, and no user is biased to their own race at all. Also, terran bioball also autoforms, i dont understand why that is even an issue or a point of contention. these posts sound like something out of combat ex... I don't even know why I even participate in this kind of discussion, its retarded. | ||
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BWILLdur
United States100 Posts
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ScaSully
United States488 Posts
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sc2lime
Canada513 Posts
EDIT: IMartosis? :D | ||
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:18 Drazzyo wrote: i wish that balance wasn't an issue because it's not, the games fine and that's why players from each race win their fair share The amount of money and professional prestige these pros gain hinges upon the relative power of the race they play. Of course they care about balance - the stronger the realistic power of the race, and the weaker the perceived power of the race, the better - so everyone whines to some extent. No professional player will publicly state that the race he/she plays is overpowered. 12 years later, every single Terran player in BW still thinks they play the underpowered race. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:21 Qaatar wrote: The amount of money and professional prestige these pros gain hinges upon the relative power of the race they play. Of course they care about balance - and the stronger the race, the better, so everyone whines to some extent. No professional player will publicly state that the race he/she plays is overpowered. 12 years later, every single Terran player in BW still thinks they play the underpowered race. It's funny, because so many Bonjwas have been Terran...chance? LOL. Tanks, tanks, and more tanks... | ||
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Euclid
Canada126 Posts
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:21 Qaatar wrote: The amount of money and professional prestige these pros gain hinges upon the relative power of the race they play. Of course they care about balance - and the stronger the race, the better, so everyone whines to some extent. No professional player will publicly state that the race he/she plays is overpowered. 12 years later, every single Terran player in BW still thinks they play the underpowered race. Which I think is one reason why every race is so defensive about balance-- no one wants to be the Protoss of SC:BW, the "unfinished" race which had a few heroes but which by and large has not been on par with Zerg, and certainly not Terran. | ||
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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
wonder how much it helps with training probably puts a lot more focus on keeping track of what's happening on the mini map | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
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425kid
416 Posts
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:15 Synk wrote: I think the really telling thing is the fact the IM coach is saying the game needs to be balanced better by Blizzard. I'm surprised no-one has mentioned that in this thread yet. I trust the coaches opinion on balance more so than any of the players since he's exposed to all of it through his players, and has the least motivation for bias surrounding his answer. | ||
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:25 udgnim wrote: so I just noticed, it looks like some players don't play with any sound wonder how much it helps with training SlayerSAlicia mentioned in a recent interview that his biggest shock in GSTL was playing with music, he said it totally wrecked his concentration. I think it must help a good deal, will definitely be playing without music in the near future to test it out. That being said, some players were also clearly playing casually. There was one Terran guy on the left-hand wall of the room playing with one hand haha. I think most players still keep sound on. | ||
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cozzE
Australia357 Posts
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
i think so too maybe after sen finished university | ||
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
And I might be mixing up Naniwa with another player but I know for a fact that Dimaga wants to stay in Europe. | ||
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Juaks
United States384 Posts
Thank you so much. Edit. Hwani is such a baller | ||
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:31 TRAP[yoo] wrote: i think so too maybe after sen finished university Pretty sure Sen is set on joining the Taiwanese SC2 league. I heard they actually pay their players sizable salaries. If IM doesn't have a sponsor (and thus, no monthly salary), I don't see how they will attract any big name who has other better monetary options. Then again, just the chance to train with NesTea, Losira, and mvp will probably be good enough. So who knows? Either way, the fact remains: just being in IM does in no way, shape, or form, guarantee a win in the GSL. The fact that the GSL is so top-heavy in its prize structure certainly doesn't help. | ||
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babysimba
10466 Posts
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Lokian
United States699 Posts
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Juaks
United States384 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:43 Lokian wrote: mvp based his argument on the mobility of races vs maps. although its somewhat good reasoning, I don't think mobility is the determining factor for how much more powerful a race is than the other. lack of mobility is one thing, but high static defense is another. if all races had all aspects equalized, it would lead to a boring game. I could not agree more sir. | ||
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:42 babysimba wrote: MVP isn't even showing what terrans at the very top can do. His best strength is his economic timings, has decent macro, micro, tactical awareness. Ryung has better macro. MKP has better micro. MMA has better decision making and is mentally stronger than him. Slayers terrans are also showing they might be better them him tactically (TvP especially). MVP's drops usually only serve to force his opponents into a multi-tasking battle, while Slayers' drops are almost always part of a greater picture - to reposition their main army when the enemy is out of position. That's an interesting analysis - but it also pretty much says that he's the most complete Terran player right now (along with Bomber). Also, I'm not sure if Ryung does have better macro - at the very least, the differences are tiny, because SC2 macro-mechanics (not micro or multi-tasking) have a lower skill ceiling than everything else. Edit: for example, in the one televised game where MMA beat mvp, he essentially won that game with a hidden base at mvp's gold. That's very risky, and I'm not sure if that actually counts as "better" decision-making. To each his own, I suppose. | ||
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Scrandom
Canada2819 Posts
And how is it that no tourneys are inviting these IM players, that is shocking to me. | ||
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FezTheCaliph
United States492 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:37 Qaatar wrote: Pretty sure Sen is set on joining the Taiwanese SC2 league. I heard they actually pay their players sizable salaries. If IM doesn't have a sponsor (and thus, no monthly salary), I don't see how they will attract any big name who has other better monetary options. Then again, just the chance to train with NesTea, Losira, and mvp will probably be good enough. So who knows? Either way, the fact remains: just being in IM does in no way, shape, or form, guarantee a win in the GSL. The fact that the GSL is so top-heavy in its prize structure certainly doesn't help. Ah man, crushing my hopes and dreams =p. I was just thinking because they put ability to communicate with the team as a one of their top requirements that Sen is an obvious choice in that regard. If I am not mistaken he was able to answer the questions of the Korean commentators in Korean or they were able to speak with him directly in Taiwanese. Also, the proximity is a plus, as Taiwan is much closer to Korea than Europe or America, which is why I also was thinking m00nglade(who I understand was also taking steps to learning Korean) | ||
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Xeteh
United States589 Posts
How many of you actually listened to the video and how many just saw the thread name and ran to the POST REPLY button? | ||
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Inuryu6
53 Posts
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Fingulfin
United States110 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:55 Xeteh wrote: I think its funny that when MC says he thinks Terran is at the biggest disadvantage on the big maps and since the GSL plays on all these big maps it makes it hard, he wasn't talking about balance. Yet the whole thread is full of arguing about how weak/strong it is. How many of you actually listened to the video and how many just saw the thread name and ran to the POST REPLY button? Most people watched enough of it to tell that we are talking about MVP, not MC o.O | ||
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GwSC
United States1997 Posts
Koreans seem more willing to admit balance still has a way to go regardless of what race they play. | ||
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Monox1de
United States101 Posts
I can see where MvP is coming from. On paper Terran might not be the weakest race, But this feeling of becoming weaker and weaker could definitely make anyone feel like they are the weakest link. U can replace X with z t or p and I would feel the same way. | ||
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Xeteh
United States589 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:57 Fingulfin wrote: Most people watched enough of it to tell that we are talking about MVP, not MC o.O Oh God, a typo! Now my point is invalid! | ||
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SONE
Canada839 Posts
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SilverPotato
United States560 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:17 MK4512 wrote: Yes, obviously protoss requires no skill and blindly a-moving results in a win every time, with no actual knowledge of timings, micro or macro at all, and no user is biased to their own race at all. Also, terran bioball also autoforms, i dont understand why that is even an issue or a point of contention. these posts sound like something out of combat ex... I don't even know why I even participate in this kind of discussion, its retarded. Timings are timings no matter the race its attack at this time and that time thats bronze level crap, however in terms of both Micro and Macro, Protoss has it easiest, its not an opinion, its actually how the game was designed. And Yes Terran balls auto form too, except Terran players have to constantly work to keep their units from forming into balls during battles because then none of the back units can do damage. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
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Ucs
264 Posts
I thought that NASL wanted the IM guys to go in the league but they had a language barrier and the coach/team didn't sign up in time. Hopefully that dosent happen again, all the terrans in the foreign scene would be so happy to see MVP go to foreign events. Boxer is good and all (althought skill wise a bit over hyped) but MVP is seriously the best terran in the world and people want to see him live or on stream but against foreigners and in foreign tournaments. Just look at MVP vs Dimaga...everyone loved that game. Not to mention that IMNestea is the best zerg in the world, IMLoosira coming close to him too and the funky protoss players they have like IMSeed. Artosis please please please tell IMcoach to get on Twitter(or other social networks) to be able to get invited to tournaments or just to spread their name to the foreign scene :D I feel that IM is unfairly underrated for some reason (no sponsors, no invites...) if nobody can message them, then how can they be invited? ( there are other ways but the other teams have done this and look at ST and oGs, they are getting ALOT more attention than IM ) :D I really am a big MVP fan :< I want to see him in foreign tournaments more.(P.S. You missed the best MVP question: Why does he always play in tournaments with his mouth open like : ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/590.jpg) You know something is wrong when really good terran players (MVP,others) say terran is the weakest, really awesome zerg players (actually all the zerg players) say zerg is the weakest and protoss players say all is fine with the balance. Man I really wrote a big wall of text...hopefully someone will read it :D | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
Terminus RE ZvT - 5/4 TvP - 10/7 ZvP - 5/5 Tal'Darim Altar ZvT - 4/9 TvP - 13/7 ZvP - 6/5 Crevasse ZvT - 6/9 TvP - 3/1 ZvP - 2/4 Totals: ZvT - 15/22 Terran wins 59% TvP - 26/15 Terran wins 63% ZvP - 13/14 Protoss wins 52% Looks like Terrans are still kicking butt in Korea. | ||
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Irrelevant
United States2364 Posts
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Cuiu
Germany410 Posts
On April 24 2011 15:15 Irrelevant wrote: Would love to see the IM crew hitting up more tournaments outside of the GSL thats his personal opinion dude there is nothing to prove or to unprove for me zerg is op because im so bad @it stupid artosis i want more vods :D great job man | ||
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cozzE
Australia357 Posts
On April 24 2011 15:11 Tachion wrote: I was curious how the GSL stats supported MVP's claim that big maps made Terran weaker, so I went back and took all the race stats on Crevasse, Tal'Darim, and Terminus(the 3 biggest new maps) from GSTL 1 & 2, GSL WC(the tournament rounds), GSL Mar code S & A & up/down, and GSL May code S & A so far. Here's where we stand with wins between the match-ups. Terminus RE ZvT - 5/4 TvP - 10/7 ZvP - 5/5 Tal'Darim Altar ZvT - 4/9 TvP - 13/7 ZvP - 6/5 Crevasse ZvT - 6/9 TvP - 3/1 ZvP - 2/4 Totals: ZvT - 15/22 Terran wins 59% TvP - 26/15 Terran wins 63% ZvP - 13/14 Protoss wins 52% Looks like Terrans are still kicking butt in Korea. You can't be serious posting this... | ||
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seansye
United States1722 Posts
Wow progamers still favor DT-35 Keyboards, but Nestea, I think was using a Steelseries 6gv2!! | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
Hm? "Terran is the worst right now, in GSL maps" from the interview. Specifically large maps as he mentioned. So I took every stat available from every pro game played on the new large maps and it doesn't support what MVP claimed. I can certainly understand his reasoning that it's harder than it was before, but Terran being the worst? I don't see it. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + wait wtf? was that a mistranslation? uhh why not? | ||
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manicshock
Canada741 Posts
that vikings had such high dps on the ground. Yeah no. The "high DPS" comes from having half your food count army-wise put into them. They're slightly less then 2 non-stimmed marines or just above one stimmed marine for 150/75. | ||
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Tschis
Brazil1511 Posts
he must be a protoss in a human body | ||
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redemption
United States112 Posts
As a Korean speaker, I didn't hear Losira say anything about the need to constantly "counterattack," as Hwanni claimed. Losira actually said that the reason he thinks Zerg is the weakest race at the moment is because Terran and Protoss have more of an ability to take the initiative with their build orders in the early game. As a result, Zerg must constantly "match" what Protoss and Terran are doing in the early game just to survive. He said that IF a Zerg succeeds in "matching" the Terran or Protoss early on, THEN two opponents will battle it out and win or lose based on skill later in the game. Essentially, the skill of the Zerg player wouldn't even be showcased unless he survived later into the game without taking too much damage from the various tactics Terran and Protoss could use in the early game. So two opponents of equal skill (one being Zerg) would have a completely fair fight only after the Zerg were to make it past a certain point relatively unscathed, having responded correctly to all the different pressures. Losira mentioned that if a Zerg gets this process of "matching" even slightly wrong, he simply gets rolled early on, ending the game rather abruptly. When Zerg wins, it's because this process was done perfectly, and this is what is the hard part about Zerg. I assume by "matching," Losira means drone production vs unit production vs correct counter to potentially deadly harass/all-ins/early timing pushes. I'm not saying this is what I personally think, but I'm pretty sure this is what Losira was trying to express in Korean, which got lost in translation via Hwanni. I think Hwanni mistranslated "matching" to "counterattacking" and said a bunch of things that Losira didn't even mention lol. PS Also, the IM coach mentioned nothing about Greg "Idra" Fields being a bad fit for IM. Hwanni added that in by himself. Of course.... this doesn't necessarily mean that the coach doesn't agree with Hwanni. But whatever. Just trying to clear some things up. | ||
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Mentymion
Germany259 Posts
Interesting....can not await MC saying this with Protoss when the next patch will nerf Colossi and 4gates.... | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On April 24 2011 15:58 manicshock wrote: Yeah no. The "high DPS" comes from having half your food count army-wise put into them. They're slightly less then 2 non-stimmed marines or just above one stimmed marine for 150/75. However, the majority of terrans (not the pros, the average player) seems to subconsciously think that vikings are useless on the ground. That is not really the case, they are simply spoiled by stimmed bio-balls. Vikings can actually deal efficiently with zealot/stalkers. They are pretty much the same as the goliaths on the ground. | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:35 Chainfire99 wrote: Please somebody convince me that large maps don't hurt terran and favor the other races? Please....I want to learn these magical secrets! Why does someone have to convince you that they don't? Even if they do hurt the Terrans, it's entirely possible that the Terrans were too strong on smaller maps, and thus the larger maps help bring things into balance. On April 24 2011 15:52 Drowsy wrote: Well, you heard it from the man himself. Losira chose zerg because he wants to a-move and it's easy! + Show Spoiler + wait wtf? was that a mistranslation? uhh why not? Because it's evidence. And you can't post evidence in a thread about who's the weakest race. I mean, that might lead to objective determinations or something, rather than speculation based entirely on subjective impressions. And we can't have that, now can we? On April 24 2011 16:07 RavenLoud wrote: However, the majority of terrans (not the pros, the average player) seems to subconsciously think that vikings are useless on the ground. That is not really the case, they are simply spoiled by stimmed bio-balls. Vikings can actually deal efficiently with zealot/stalkers. They are pretty much the same as the goliaths on the ground. There's a difference between "Vikings are useful on the ground" and "deal efficiently with zealots/stalkers." They're not a unit that cost-effectively deals with Zealots or Stalkers. However, they are a unit that, after their primary work is done, can add their DPS to an attack. Unlike, say, Corruptors, which are a pretty much waste of resources after they kill off all of the flying stuff (unless you turn them into Brood Lords). | ||
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Moragon
United States355 Posts
It's nothing new, the GSL Terrans have always been stronger as a whole than the GSL Zerg or Protoss. Terran has made every final but one. MVP has 2 GSL wins and Marineking 3 GSL runnerups alone. Over half (13/24) of all GSL semifinalists and finalists (7/12) have been Terrans. If you include code A it becomes even more Terran heavy. The only thing that would be newsworthy is if this Terran GSL dominance ever ends, not that it is continuing. | ||
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space_yes
United States548 Posts
On April 24 2011 16:11 NicolBolas wrote: Why does someone have to convince you that they don't? Even if they do hurt the Terrans, it's entirely possible that the Terrans were too strong on smaller maps, and thus the larger maps help bring things into balance. Because it's evidence. And you can't post evidence in a thread about who's the weakest race. I mean, that might lead to objective determinations or something, rather than speculation based entirely on subjective impressions. And we can't have that, now can we? There isn't much valid statistical inference you can take from that data due to discrepancies in player skill and build order (i.e. the number of all-in games). edit: it's not a thread about who is the weakest race, the thread title is just a quote to hype the interviews | ||
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Darclite
United States1021 Posts
On April 24 2011 15:58 manicshock wrote: Yeah no. The "high DPS" comes from having half your food count army-wise put into them. They're slightly less then 2 non-stimmed marines or just above one stimmed marine for 150/75. Errr...ONE non-stimmed marine has a higher dps than a stalker, which is 125/50. And the ground attack is the viking's backup role, so I don't think that is really something to complain about if it is just less than TWO non-stimmed marines. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
On April 24 2011 16:14 Darclite wrote: Errr...ONE non-stimmed marine has a higher dps than a stalker, which is 125/50. And the ground attack is the viking's backup role, so I don't think that is really something to complain about if it is just less than TWO non-stimmed marines. For 125/50 you also get an additional 120 or so HP... | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
On April 24 2011 16:13 space_yes wrote: There isn't much valid statistic inference you can take from that data due to discrepancies in player skill and build order (i.e. the number of all-in games). Perhaps there's an argument to be made for that, but you're going to need to provide evidence to support this position. Namely, some objective way to measure "player skill" (good luck with that), the number of all-in games that happened within that GSL. And most importantly, an argument that states that all-ins should be disregarded for the purposes of determining imbalance. Statistics provide the most effective objective means for determining imbalances. So arguing against the statistics will require stronger objective evidence. | ||
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space_yes
United States548 Posts
On April 24 2011 16:17 NicolBolas wrote: Perhaps there's an argument to be made for that, but you're going to need to provide evidence to support this position. Namely, some objective way to measure "player skill" (good luck with that), the number of all-in games that happened within that GSL. And most importantly, an argument that states that all-ins should be disregarded for the purposes of determining imbalance. Statistics provide the most effective objective means for determining imbalances. So arguing against the statistics will require stronger objective evidence. are you trolling? | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
I really wonder why IM has no sponsors and doesn't get invitations to international tournaments. Like seriously? The best players/team in the world need to get around a bit. I hope it's not for reasons such as bilingual issues like Mvp mentioned, because I'm sure people would be more than willing to help translate to get a chance to see these guys in foreign tournys. | ||
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jgelling
55 Posts
Anyhow, a lot of GSL Terrans spent a lot of time perfecting one-base all-ins and other shenanigans that aren't practical after the recent nerfs and the change to larger maps in GSL. Let's wait and see. There are still plenty of sick timing pushes for Terran, and it's not as though drops have gotten any less effective. But the larger maps definitely highlight how painfully immobile Terran can be - even Medivacs aren't that fast. | ||
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space_yes
United States548 Posts
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Attica
United States277 Posts
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On April 24 2011 16:26 space_yes wrote: It's a quote to hype the interviews.. Sounds more like a quote to cause drama (no offense to Artosis, I really do appreciate these tours). Maybe people have just been taking it the wrong way. An interview with Mvp alone should be enough hype, since they're so rare and he's so damn good at this game. The quote on the other hand has only stirred up argument. | ||
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ihavetofartosis
1277 Posts
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spiksel
Netherlands97 Posts
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
On April 24 2011 16:17 NicolBolas wrote: Perhaps there's an argument to be made for that, but you're going to need to provide evidence to support this position. Namely, some objective way to measure "player skill" (good luck with that), the number of all-in games that happened within that GSL. And most importantly, an argument that states that all-ins should be disregarded for the purposes of determining imbalance. Statistics provide the most effective objective means for determining imbalances. So arguing against the statistics will require stronger objective evidence. The amount of bias and false testimony in these "statistics" renders them almost completly inconsequential. Like he stated, there is far too many variables involved in these statistics to draw any sort of conclusion from them. The only way they could truly be valid would be to organized them from a certain set of requirements such as "economics of each player being the same (even that has too many variables)" "micro being the same" "strategies being similar (i.e: all ins vs macro based drawn out games)" "quality of player" "players mind being in the same state of mind (i.e: sick, depressed over out-of-game event, jet-lagged, etc etc..." there are too many variables in this equation to draw any sort of real conclusion from the stats. I won't even start to get into the extremley small sample-size of the GSL games. Don't care if it's been 2 GSTLs and 5 seasons so far. The meta games have changed so drasticly that even considering including anything more than the current season is laughable. It's like saying fruitdealer's play in season one was good compared to the play of zergs in season 3. | ||
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Godstorm
Romania845 Posts
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ShotoElite
United States79 Posts
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doihy
668 Posts
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LangJaiQQ
Vietnam38 Posts
On April 24 2011 11:47 UberThing wrote: If the interviews could be edited so the korean buts are taken out/dubbed over, this would be awesome. They are like 50% longer than they should be The meaning of these videos is to learn more about the korean sc2 scene. Deleting the korean buts would somewhat be disrespectful. | ||
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Irave
United States9965 Posts
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
On April 24 2011 16:56 {ToT}ColmA wrote: am i the only one wishing artosis catching someone in the bathroom each time i am watching this? That's uhhhh...kinda gross and creepy | ||
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ReaperX
Hong Kong1758 Posts
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Shwizzy
United States80 Posts
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
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dunc
Netherlands1105 Posts
On April 24 2011 11:49 StarcraftMan wrote: I'm glad that IMMVP has come out to admit that Terran is the weakest race now. The cumulative changes by Blizzard to Terran has really hurt the Terran race. That is a refershing viewpoint coming from IMMVP, the best Terran player in the world, as IMMVP knows the strengths and weaknesses of the Terran race the best. IMMvp has admitted that he;s a whiner in the past. Results and statistics don't show much, but we wouldn't have seen the amount of TvTs we did in the GTSL if the Terran race was weak. On April 24 2011 12:04 SilverPotato wrote: I'm sorry but it's not beta anymore... Yeah T is much harder than zerg and especially toss. No. | ||
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Darclite
United States1021 Posts
Zealot: amount of shield decreased and build time increased. Stalker: Minor change to base damage but decrease to worth of upgrades Sentry: Damage decreased and force fields made destructible by massive units High Templar: Radius of Psi Storm decreased, Khaydarin Amulet removed Immortal: Build time increased by 15 seconds Colossus: Damage decreased Void Ray: Damage decreased, armor decreased, cost increased, range decreased, damage decreased again, flux vanes removed from the game. Mothership: Build time increased, food cost increased, number of attacks decreased, shield decreased, health decreased, acceleration decreased, and vortex screwed up. The only thing I can think of that was helped was the phoenix, getting the buff to build time and moving shot. So...yeah, protoss has gotten the same deal as terran in this regard. | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
On April 24 2011 17:25 Darclite wrote: And regarding the whole "Terran has received nerf after nerf," so has protoss. Zealot: amount of shield decreased and build time increased. Stalker: Minor change to base damage but decrease to worth of upgrades Sentry: Damage decreased and force fields made destructible by massive units High Templar: Radius of Psi Storm decreased, Khaydarin Amulet removed Immortal: Build time increased by 15 seconds Colossus: Damage decreased Void Ray: Damage decreased, armor decreased, cost increased, range decreased, damage decreased again, flux vanes removed from the game. Mothership: Build time increased, food cost increased, number of attacks decreased, shield decreased, health decreased, acceleration decreased, and vortex screwed up. The only thing I can think of that was helped was the phoenix, getting the buff to build time and moving shot. So...yeah, protoss has gotten the same deal as terran in this regard. yea...life's hard when you're a toss. ahaha | ||
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dunc
Netherlands1105 Posts
On April 24 2011 17:36 Chainfire99 wrote: yea...life's hard when you're a toss. ahaha Shocking that 8 of your posts are crying about Protoss. Honestly get over yourself, just because you play a race doesn't mean it's the hardest. | ||
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
I am always wondering why so many Korean gamers need translaters or dont talk much at all. Terran is not weak by any means, people have just figured out how to shield themslves from early aggression, harassment and strong first pushes. Terran needs to fokus on the metagame more now. | ||
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
On April 24 2011 17:38 dunc wrote: Shocking that 8 of your posts are crying about Protoss. Honestly get over yourself, just because you play a race doesn't mean it's the hardest. Stalk much? Creeepy btw there aren't 8/17 posts crying about toss, liar. Maybe a couple critical posts in the past but that's it. Learn to count. | ||
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TheBrofessor
Canada429 Posts
On April 24 2011 17:40 Holy_AT wrote: Dont they learn english in Korea or do they learn another second language or is the conecept of learning other languages not common in Korea ? I am always wondering why so many Korean gamers need translaters or dont talk much at all. Terran is not weak by any means, people have just figured out how to shield themslves from early aggression, harassment and strong first pushes. Terran needs to fokus on the metagame more now. I believe its like western school in that you can take a foreign language class if you choose, but it's not required. Hence why most Koreans speak only korean, and most Westerners speak only English. | ||
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Qwix
531 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
At least there are some players with creative Styles out there to change the metagame. | ||
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
On April 24 2011 17:40 Holy_AT wrote: Dont they learn english in Korea or do they learn another second language or is the conecept of learning other languages not common in Korea ? I am always wondering why so many Korean gamers need translaters or dont talk much at all. Terran is not weak by any means, people have just figured out how to shield themslves from early aggression, harassment and strong first pushes. Terran needs to fokus on the metagame more now. Without successful harassment terran would be screwed versus really good zerg and to a lesser extent versus toss. Terran must harass to win against elite competition unless it's an all-in or if the opposing player neglects to scout well. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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sharky246
1197 Posts
On April 24 2011 17:50 TheBrofessor wrote: I believe its like western school in that you can take a foreign language class if you choose, but it's not required. Hence why most Koreans speak only korean, and most Westerners speak only English. No actually english is compulsory in korea. Something to do with the society or education system or whatever that hinders them from being good at english (by foreigners standards). | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
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legatus legionis
Netherlands559 Posts
On April 24 2011 18:02 vOdToasT wrote: Talk about a sensationalist title for this thread I thought it was counter intuitive, I skipped hovering over it twice but since it was still there after a couple refreshes I checked it out. And boy am I glad I did, this is great, thanks so much Artosis! Edit: woops, forgot to mention I like the translator, he's cool | ||
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Drunken.Jedi
Germany446 Posts
On April 24 2011 17:50 TheBrofessor wrote: I believe its like western school in that you can take a foreign language class if you choose, but it's not required. Hence why most Koreans speak only korean, and most Westerners speak only English. What? Since when do most Westerners only speak English? You do realise that for a lot of us English is a foreign language, right? At least in Europe most people speak at least two languages and there's quite a number of people who speak three or even more languages. And I can't really imagine that there's any Western country where it isn't compulsory to learn at least one foreign language. | ||
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TheGrimace
United States929 Posts
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Keone
United States812 Posts
On April 24 2011 18:17 Drunken.Jedi wrote: What? Since when do most Westerners only speak English? You do realise that for a lot of us English is a foreign language, right? At least in Europe most people speak at least two languages and there's quite a number of people who speak three or even more languages. And I can't really imagine that there's any Western country where it isn't compulsory to learn at least one foreign language. Haha whoa calm down, I think his idea of "Western" = USA, while your idea of "Western" = European. The majority of Americans only speak english, which is what I think the previous guy was talking about. And you are right of course, most Europeans are multilingual, some to ridiculous degrees. I mean, if the greatest athlete in Tennis history actually speaks 4 or so different languages... says quite a lot about European multilingualism! edit: oh and btw it is not compulsory in many parts of the US to learn a foreign language. some schools require it, though. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Between Code A and Code S Terrans are currently 13-5 against protoss | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
Terran dominate top of ladders. Terran dominate tournaments. Terran make up ~ 50% of every GSL or any other qualification tournament. Terran is least race played at the top (grand masters). Protoss is first followed by Zerg. Normal distribution would have 7 Toss and 7 Zerg and only 6 Terran in three criteria above/20 not the preponderance race has... | ||
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Sebast1aan
Belgium163 Posts
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
On April 24 2011 18:26 Keone wrote: Haha whoa calm down, I think his idea of "Western" = USA, while your idea of "Western" = European. The majority of Americans only speak english, which is what I think the previous guy was talking about. And you are right of course, most Europeans are multilingual, some to ridiculous degrees. I mean, if the greatest athlete in Tennis history actually speaks 4 or so different languages... says quite a lot about European multilingualism! edit: oh and btw it is not compulsory in many parts of the US to learn a foreign language. some schools require it, though. it was wrong for me to post this on a tl thread. Not the time or place. | ||
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Silentenigma
Turkey2037 Posts
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GP
United States1056 Posts
On April 24 2011 18:33 Chainfire99 wrote: Typical American arrogance to consider only the United States as "Western" like Canada doesn't exist or anything. Sigh Typical American arrogance, how original! Aren't blanket statements fun?! | ||
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
On April 24 2011 18:27 zeru wrote: Lets keep it that way. I'd rather we terrans don't resort to forum qqing and stick to trying to find better ways to play our race. I'll be sad if terrans start becoming like many zergs on these forums. When you got banned for 2 out of 17 posts, and several other posts of those are QQ posts, you should probably realize you're doing something wrong. Who is talking to you? Mind your business, stalker #2. | ||
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CoMMoDuS
Germany507 Posts
Anyway, thanks a lot, i am already exited for the remaining clans. | ||
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
Seriously. Just stop arguing with these stupid one liners and useless info. Just because a thread has "imbalance" in the title doesnt mean it's and invitation to just spew bullshit. Really great interviews, especially with the head coach, i really love these tours as well :D | ||
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Ropid
Germany3557 Posts
On April 24 2011 17:40 Holy_AT wrote: Dont they learn english in Korea or do they learn another second language or is the conecept of learning other languages not common in Korea ? I am always wondering why so many Korean gamers need translaters or dont talk much at all. Terran is not weak by any means, people have just figured out how to shield themslves from early aggression, harassment and strong first pushes. Terran needs to fokus on the metagame more now. All the International gamers you see are growing up with the International Starcraft scene, are traveling and motivated to communicate in English and just happen to pick up vocabulary and grammar naturally. You never actually meet for example the Germans that are never traveling abroad and only ever had contact with English in school. The average European could be much worse at English than what you experienced. I know I learned most in school in grade 5 and 6 with a teacher that was heavily into discipline and wrote letters to parents if you did not do your homework. The rest of my school years with different teachers were basically useless, and without that one teacher all the English lessons in school would have been pointless. I learned English by myself years later. As a comparison, I forgot 100 % of the French I learned in school. Adding to that, I suspect most Korean progamers have not finished high school because they never intend to go for higher education. Also, the difference between Korean and English is bigger than between English and most European languages. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
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Maliris
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
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Sajiki
Germany522 Posts
anyways great stuff as always from artosis, totally love his team house visits | ||
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Rareware
Canada340 Posts
On April 24 2011 18:33 Chainfire99 wrote: Typical American arrogance to consider only the United States as "Western" like Canada doesn't exist or anything. Sigh Chill out dude, all he's trying to say is that in the US many people don't take a second language. | ||
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
On April 24 2011 18:43 zeru wrote: I'm simply pointing out that you should think twice and re-read your posts before pressing the post button. It might save you from looking like a fool, getting banned and should increase your posts quality. You should also really read the TL.net Ten Commandments http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17883. On topic: House tours = amazing. Looking like a fool? I think you should read the ten commandments as well .I never understood self-entitled people who like to judge others. Scanning through my post history seems a tad excessive especially to make a point with someone who has never spoken to you. Stick to the thread topic instead of attacking others. I merely agreed with MVP that large maps suck as terran and favors the other races. I never QQ'D about toss in this thread at all. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
On April 24 2011 18:36 Chainfire99 wrote: Who is talking to you? Mind your business, stalker #2. you see..when people whine about something like imbalance the other person check his post history to see if he has complained imbalance before so that they can report you to the mods and you can be dealt with. on topic:I don't particularly agree that Terran is weak because we haven't figured out the full potential of Ghosts and Ravens. | ||
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
On April 24 2011 18:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: you see..when people whine about something like imbalance the other person check his post history to see if he has complained imbalance before so that they can report you to the mods and you can be dealt with. Ahh yes because imbalance doesn't exist in the world of starcraft. If that were true the game would never be patched nor maps modified. Large maps hurt terran. I can't agree with something that was said in an interview? I'll keep that in mind. This might as well be 1984! | ||
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LicH.
China235 Posts
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dc302
Australia576 Posts
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Kira__
Sweden2672 Posts
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Horse...falcon
United States1851 Posts
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
On April 24 2011 18:59 Horse...falcon wrote: Wait they STILL don't have a sponsor? How? Are they just living off of their GSTL winnings? I find it hard to believe as well if it's true IM doesn't have a sponsor. They have arguably the best terran and zerg in the world each winning championships and the team as a whole winning a gstl! | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
Point is, I don't think whining about balance is going to be very useful. It's about finding the best build at that moment to counteract whatever perceived "imbalances" and shifting the metagame to suit your race and playstyle. Until a new patch is released, the best thing a player can do is to find what is most effective and use it. EDIT: As for the 2nd house tour he mentioned, I think it's the NSHoSeo house, as he mentioned it in yesterday's GSL cast. | ||
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dunc
Netherlands1105 Posts
On April 24 2011 18:36 Chainfire99 wrote: Who is talking to you? Mind your business, stalker #2. I remembered the post you got banned for when Naniwa was playing, it's not hard to spend 10 seconds looking through a few posts. "Stalker" aside, you're not contributing. You're posting like the average battle.net browser. Honestly, we have too much imbalance whine on these forums already.. mostly coming from Zergplayers. I hope Terrans won't start as well just because mvp said something. Remember a month ago where he said he was thinking about switching races? It's a joke, people like MMA, Ryung, Bomber, MVP himself and MarineKing show that the class is far from weak. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On the other side, I do think Terran is one of the hardest race, if not the hardest race to play at high level. Zerg is easier in maccro but needs more of timing / game sense. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
On April 24 2011 18:56 Chainfire99 wrote: Ahh yes because imbalance doesn't exist in the world of starcraft. If that were true the game would never be patched nor maps modified. Large maps hurt terran. I can't agree with something that was said in an interview? I'll keep that in mind. This might as well be 1984! I never said imbalance doesn't exist,I said whining about it doesn't help,especially on TL because Blizzard pays more attention to their own forums. large maps don't hurt Terran,they are disadvantaged,but I think we can figure something out before we need to decide if a patch is needed to fix that.Likje I said Ghots and Ravens haven't been explored that much in TvZ and TvP(well ghost are part of the main army in TvP) | ||
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Butterz
688 Posts
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
As for the balance discussion, suffice to say that recent statistics (including on the big maps) do not reinforce MVPs argument. In fact, they do quite the opposite. | ||
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
On April 24 2011 19:02 dunc wrote: I remembered the post you got banned for when Naniwa was playing, it's not hard to spend 10 seconds looking through a few posts. "Stalker" aside, you're not contributing. You're posting like the average battle.net browser. Honestly, we have too much imbalance whine on these forums already.. mostly coming from Zergplayers. I hope Terrans won't start as well just because mvp said something. Remember a month ago where he said he was thinking about switching races? It's a joke, people like MMA, Ryung, Bomber, MVP himself and MarineKing show that the class is far from weak. And you're contributing by flaming others? rofl. How is stating a fact about map size in relation to races whining about perceived imbalances? I'm not whining about specific units/builds/or strategies. So let me get this straight. It's accepted that close spawn positions for zerg is unfair to the race. It's accepted that steppes of war and lost temple favored terran. But it's unacceptable for me to agree with a pro player that large maps are unfavorable to terran ( not a huge disadvantage)? | ||
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quRax
Korea (South)264 Posts
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
On April 24 2011 19:03 BLinD-RawR wrote: I never said imbalance doesn't exist,I said whining about it doesn't help,especially on TL because Blizzard pays more attention to their own forums. large maps don't hurt Terran,they are disadvantaged,but I think we can figure something out before we need to decide if a patch is needed to fix that.) You are right. Imbalance discussion is pointless here. I guess map discussion is put in the same boat. My bad. | ||
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Horse...falcon
United States1851 Posts
On a separate note, the SlayerS teamhouse has got to be crazy swank with all that Intel money. | ||
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
On April 24 2011 19:13 Chainfire99 wrote: You are right. Imbalance discussion is pointless here. I guess map discussion is put in the same boat. My bad. Not sure if you're being sarcastic but at least you got it completely right :o To be on point. Great videos from Artosis! I just wish you wouldn't have named the thread the way you did but doesn't matter I guess. I hope you can do TSL house tour in the future. I want to see how FD and Cliiiiiide lives. | ||
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StyLeD
United States2965 Posts
if anyone knows, is IM sponsored now? | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On April 24 2011 19:26 StyLeD wrote: I asked this before, but I'll ask it again... if anyone knows, is IM sponsored now? Don't think so. No announcements on it and lack of advertising on their jackets and shirts (in the most recent GSL) tell me no. Surprised Artosis didn't ask the coach about it in his video. He should have (after the coach told him about how IM was not sponsored). In fact, Thehandsomenerd.com should have offered to sponsor them... I kid. | ||
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BobGayman
89 Posts
On April 24 2011 19:26 StyLeD wrote: I asked this before, but I'll ask it again... if anyone knows, is IM sponsored now? They had boxes of Coke standing around, so at least the GSL is taking care of them. | ||
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Greem
730 Posts
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Intr3pid
Switzerland336 Posts
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TR
2320 Posts
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Horse...falcon
United States1851 Posts
On April 24 2011 19:29 BobGayman wrote: They had boxes of Coke standing around, so at least the GSL is taking care of them. Well they've won around $13,000 in prize money from 1st and 2nd place in the GSTL. Also Nestea, MVP, the Coach, and other Code S guys might help out by contributing a portion of winnings to the team. Assuming the house is owned by the coach they would mostly be paying for food and such their expenses shouldn't bee that high. I hope the truth is that they've gotten a lot of offers but are waiting for that home run sponsor. Hate to think such a great team would have nobody interested. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
On April 24 2011 11:51 imareaver3 wrote: And NesTea--the best Zerg in the world--said the exact opposite. There's quite a bit of bias in these interviews. Can't blame him after what Clide did to him. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On April 24 2011 19:02 WhiteDog wrote: Saying terran is weak is absolute bullshit if you consider how good the terran are doing in tourney since the beginning of the game. On the other side, I do think Terran is one of the hardest race, if not the hardest race to play at high level. Zerg is easier in maccro but needs more of timing / game sense. how about you listen to his reply again, he says terran suffers the most on bigger maps, which WERENT BEING PLAYED at the beginning of the game. he even specifically mentions that he is talking about the current gsl map pool. On April 24 2011 19:14 Horse...falcon wrote: On a separate note, the SlayerS teamhouse has got to be crazy swank with all that Intel money. boxer used it all to build a golden throne | ||
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thesums
Taiwan257 Posts
Despite terran doing well, in the nominations for GSL May, why did people all pick terrans first? They are all fighting to pick those terrans! In the end it was like 1 zerg and 4 toss left. Please dont post balance complaints if you have not even watched the matches carefully. Many of the terrans that beat protoss played well and/or protoss played greedy/bad. If they lose due to FE, it is totally their fault as protoss does not need 1 expansion up. And another obvious reason is the 1 hotkey problem for protoss. They always have zealots stuck behind! This is as bad as marines marauders not microing against zealots, its the same. For me it is Protoss > Terran > Zerg atm, PvT is quite balanced but Protoss is better vs zerg making them the best race still. | ||
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[Silverflame]
Germany640 Posts
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:18 infinity2k9 wrote: How? Mechanically? Zerg is clearly harder mechanically, just the nature of the race and balancing drone/unit production. Terran have the most capability for Multi-tasking (just like SC1) Terran have the best harass options, and generally HAVE TO use them to keep up with Zerg and Toss. Terran have units that can be super efficient with impeccable unit control/strategy, and as such require a lot of micro to use to max potential. I guess that's not really "mechanics" like creep spread and injecting, but Terran definitely do have the highest skill cap and require the most technical skill. Simple things like supply depots being raisable (and as such adding even more possibilities for smart plays, like Boxer's watch tower supply depot) adds to this as well. edit: this is not even talking about things like how important building placement is, how important positioning is for the Terran army, addon management, tech switching etc which all add up even more stuff to think about. I may be biased but I think everything I said makes sense. | ||
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sleepyguy
United States272 Posts
On April 24 2011 19:02 WhiteDog wrote: Saying terran is weak is absolute bullshit if you consider how good the terran are doing in tourney since the beginning of the game. On the other side, I do think Terran is one of the hardest race, if not the hardest race to play at high level. Zerg is easier in maccro but needs more of timing / game sense. Even though it doesn't seem to fit MVP's personality, maybe he's just trolling xD That would be hilarious. | ||
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-Ziggy-
Sweden97 Posts
On April 24 2011 19:02 WhiteDog wrote: Saying terran is weak is absolute bullshit if you consider how good the terran are doing in tourney since the beginning of the game. He's obviously talking as someone that has played Terran from the beginning. Combine all the nerfs (most of them - if not all - justified) plus the maps becoming bigger and it's not that strange of a statement. While I don't agree with him saying that it's a weak race, it's still understandable that he feels that way since Terran has gotten significantly worse (or less OP, however you'd like to put it) over time while Protoss has gotten stronger and Zerg has stayed more or less the same. Like, how do you think he feels about MC being the GSL champion? MVP got famous for being incredibly solid and macro-oriented, MC is famous for taking risk after risk and being rewarded for it. You probably couldn't roll the dice with Terran or Zerg at the moment and get that much success. Obviously that's just speculation on my part. It's also about more than just pure game balance, much much more. But balance is the easiest thing for players to point to since the game is fairly young and is going to be continuously patched for quite some time. | ||
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
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Tekkerz
United Kingdom216 Posts
On April 24 2011 19:59 Scila wrote: Terran have the most capability for Multi-tasking (just like SC1) Terran have the best harass options, and generally HAVE TO use them to keep up with Zerg and Toss. Terran have units that can be super efficient with impeccable unit control/strategy, and as such require a lot of micro to use to max potential. I guess that's not really "mechanics" like creep spread and injecting, but Terran definitely do have the highest skill cap and require the most technical skill. Simple things like supply depots being raisable (and as such adding even more possibilities for smart plays, like Boxer's watch tower supply depot) adds to this as well. I may be biased but I think everything I said makes sense. yeah you are biased, i see your point but zerg is a lot tougher to play. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On April 24 2011 20:03 Tekkerz wrote: yeah you are biased, i see your point but zerg is a lot tougher to play. Zerg is susceptible to earlygame crap that they can't scout. They don't have harder mechanics. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On April 24 2011 19:54 thesums wrote: For me it is Protoss > Terran > Zerg atm, PvT is quite balanced but Protoss is better vs zerg making them the best race still. . zvp has a huge effect on overall power. and no matter how you look at it, zvp is not in a good state. zvt might not be "imba" but now is imho harder for the T on the big maps. and again on the big maps early game tvp is always a big gamble cause of P rushdistance ignore and lategame P should win. right now i def would say T is hardest, Z 2nd, P easiest. and Z weakest overall, T middle and P strongest. On April 24 2011 20:07 Dalavita wrote: Zerg is susceptible to earlygame crap that they can't scout. They don't have harder mechanics. basic macro stuff (injecting,producing, creep/OL spread etc) is way more apm intensive then t/p | ||
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Velocity`
United Kingdom343 Posts
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On April 24 2011 20:03 Tekkerz wrote: yeah you are biased, i see your point but zerg is a lot tougher to play. Zerg players seem to overstate this a rather large amount. They really aren't that hard to play. Other than timings on using larvae (obviously a big deal, but still only one thing), they're pretty simple. The larvae mechanic is forgiving of making the wrong stuff or making it late, their units are fast thus forgiving positional errors, their units are cheap so it's less costly screwing up and losing them, etc. | ||
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
Thanks for the awesome content Artosis! Oh and I can see Hwanni cut some corners while translating some of your questions Crack that whip man! | ||
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UltramilK
Belgium92 Posts
Nice work again, Artosis, thanks alot! | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On April 24 2011 20:08 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: basic macro stuff (injecting,producing, creep/OL spread etc) is way more apm intensive then t/p Injecting isn't that APM intensive, it's more an issue of timing and remembering to do it. Creep/ovie spread, sure. Production?? They produce very few buildings, and their entire unit production consists of pressing one hotkey then spamming out whatever they want. It's by far the least APM intensive production. | ||
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silverraygun
United Kingdom32 Posts
On April 24 2011 20:11 Yaotzin wrote: Zerg players seem to overstate this a rather large amount. They really aren't that hard to play. Other than timings on using larvae (obviously a big deal, but still only one thing), they're pretty simple. The larvae mechanic is forgiving of making the wrong stuff or making it late, their units are fast thus forgiving positional errors, their units are cheap so it's less costly screwing up and losing them, etc. Less costly? Not really, Zerg is the least forgiving of all three races in terms of making mistakes, throwing units away unnecessarily. Not only that, they become more expensive when you have to continually remake them, not to mention that aside from zerglings, most decent zerg units are gas expensive if you want a decent number and relatively inefficient unit wise to their cost, a lot of times you need to outplay your opponent of equal skill quite some way to reap the rewards. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:57 SilverPotato wrote: Don't forget the ability to move around an automatically formed death ball! You guys need seriously to go play tournaments with toss! I bet you guys would be top 5 world if you played it! Actually all toss players have no skill, they are monkeys who know build orders and FF placement! Right? Hahhaa i see so much pearls on this forum! I find Zerg macro easier than all 3 tbh. Don't know exactly what people are talking about it being the hardest. Creep spreading and injecting larva doesn't take brains, it's just a routine. And except for one thing or another, the rest is equal or easier than the other 2. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
Artosis was/is one of the community's proponents of balance QQ. Artosis started this thread. Artosis named this thread. The thread claims that there is imbalance regarding Terran. Thus, Artosis is inciting the masses to QQ about balance! He be trolling us on TL lol. Anyways, balance derailment complaining aside, it's really interesting to hear about the coach's plan to possibly recruit foreigners. Although MVP and Nestea are GSL champions and the IM has shown great success in team leagues, perhaps having a foreigner in the house can help the team connect better to the non-Korean community. We've already seen Torch do a commendable job getting Startale to participate in events for the foreign community. IM is a fantastic team, so it would be awesome to see them do more stuff for us foreigners. | ||
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RegniG
Norway22 Posts
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`dunedain
653 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:49 Darclite wrote: I mean no offense to Terran players, but I am not seeing the same effort put into learning about the game as I am from Protoss or Zerg. For example, look at the strategy channels on the NA server. The Zerg channel will have 80 people, the Protoss channel will have 70, and the Terran one will have 6. Just wanted to mention that the reason that there are only 5 or so people in the Terran Strategy Chat Channels are because of a bug in the coding. Where the Terran Chat are all limited to only 5 people per channel, in all the regions. Blizzard knows about the problem, so now we're just waiting for it to get fixed. So it's busted everywhere, and not empty because we don't have the drive to improve but because of the bug. Also, I just wanted to note, in terms of the state of TvZ right now, with the Infestors and all, I think it's pretty absurd that they only cost 100min150gas and cause a whole world of pain(with FG, NP and Infested Terrans), but a Ghost costs 150/150 and dies pretty fast without ups and does shit damage to armored (which btw Infestors are). | ||
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Mithriel
Netherlands2969 Posts
Lol at interview with MVP, terran the weakest! buff terran! Also interesting news from the headcoach, wonder what foreigners they have in mind, cant wait for them to take foreigner into their team. Also would love to see more MVP/Nestea/Losira in international tournaments! | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On April 24 2011 20:18 silverraygun wrote: Less costly? Not really, Zerg is the least forgiving of all three races in terms of making mistakes, throwing units away unnecessarily. Cheap units are always the most forgiving to lose, and they're generally pretty mobile too which helps save more stuff from a screwup. Slow, expensive units are on the opposite end. So sure, when Zerg has broodlords, screwing up is extremely unforgiving. But ling/bling/roach? Pretty forgiving. And those are the core of most Zerg armies. Not only that, they become more expensive when you have to continually remake them, ..everything does..they are however less expensive to remake than say stalkers, therefore it is more forgiving when you screw up and lose them. not to mention that aside from zerglings, most decent zerg units are gas expensive if you want a decent number and relatively inefficient unit wise to their cost, a lot of times you need to outplay your opponent of equal skill quite some way to reap the rewards. I fail to see how their gas expensive is relevant. Zerg cost inefficiency is a myth. | ||
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Endorsed
Netherlands1221 Posts
Zerg cost inefficiency is a myth. Just like gateway units cost inefficiency. | ||
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silverraygun
United Kingdom32 Posts
On April 24 2011 20:31 Yaotzin wrote: Cheap units are always the most forgiving to lose, and they're generally pretty mobile too which helps save more stuff from a screwup. Slow, expensive units are on the opposite end. So sure, when Zerg has broodlords, screwing up is extremely unforgiving. But ling/bling/roach? Pretty forgiving. And those are the core of most Zerg armies. The zerg early game is pretty volatile comparatively with so much the player has to scout for and try and react to, therefore unnecessarily losing even cheap units like zerglings can suddenly make an instant game over. Though by mid game it is more stable. ..everything does..they are however less expensive to remake than say stalkers, therefore it is more forgiving when you screw up and lose them. Mistakes are still pretty punishing since zerg units are generally weak (though that is their nature by design), and therefore any mistake can result in losing a lot. Zerg cost inefficiency is a myth. Ultras? | ||
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Azz
Australia65 Posts
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
And yeah, the fact that terran is the hardest race has always been overshadowed by the fact that terran has always been really, really powerful. People somehow relate the overall power of a race to how hard it is to play. Kind of silly. | ||
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Mojar
Australia185 Posts
Also, I just wanted to note, in terms of the state of TvZ right now, with the Infestors and all, I think it's pretty absurd that they only cost 100min150gas and cause a whole world of pain(with FG, NP and Infested Terrans), but a Ghost costs 150/150 and dies pretty fast without ups and does shit damage to armored (which btw Infestors are). This is such a stupid comparison rofl. Your complaing that a ghost dies fast when it has more hp then an infestor, has the ability to snipe and then you say it cant do dmg to an infestor when it can both emp rendering it useless and snipe it easily. | ||
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Kojaimea
United Kingdom277 Posts
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Entropic
Canada2837 Posts
On April 24 2011 20:59 Kojaimea wrote: Losira is the cutest. I agree. | ||
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
After yesterdays MC vs Thorzain I was happy because the LR thread was mostly balance whine free. Also even the matches felt kinda even so I don't know from where this Terran is weak shit is coming from. Thorzain just took out MC 3-2 in mid/long macro games. This is why pro players should stay quiet about their opinions and just talk to blizzard directly. Everytime some progamer says this or that race is weak, it enables all the whine to start and when before nobody was saying anything, suddenly it's "oh my god so this is why I have been losing". + Show Spoiler + Also saying that after he just won a GSL WC Championshit against another Terran seems kinda stupid. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
.I think with the recent new zerg methods to abuse the marine split and still disallow clumping and since terrans don't really have something else against mutas it got a bit complicated. though i think its not a gamebreaker. And its always funny when zergs complain about larva management as being so complicated. Its maybe complicated to know when you need to save up but drones ... no not at all, you can easily use 1 larva per opponents worker production facility to not fall behind. Its also easy to know how much hatches you need to match the opponents combat unit production (well most of the time you don't since you are ahead by far on this) and this cost inefficiency thing is really a myth, i thought terran would be and need an extra base. But in tvz its always the attacker that is loosing more ressources then the opponent, unless they do terrible infrastructure damage. | ||
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zorromiha
Afghanistan33 Posts
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On April 24 2011 20:50 silverraygun wrote: The zerg early game is pretty volatile comparatively with so much the player has to scout for and try and react to, therefore unnecessarily losing even cheap units like zerglings can suddenly make an instant game over. Though by mid game it is more stable. Early game is unforgiving for everyone. Simply not having much stuff makes the impact of losing any of it pretty painful. Ask any toss how bad it hurts to lose just a couple of sentries when 3gate expanding. Mistakes are still pretty punishing since zerg units are generally weak (though that is their nature by design), and therefore any mistake can result in losing a lot. Well, yeah. And Protoss units are slow so a mistake is harder to extricate yourself from. Tanks rely totally on their support so if you get caught chasing mutas or something you die, etc etc. Starcraft is just a very unforgiving game in general. Zerg isn't moreso, just in different ways. Ultras? Other than sucking, what about them? | ||
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Krehlmar
Sweden1149 Posts
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
Currently , P > T = Z I find that yeah, as zerg in the early game, you need to learn a lot of different timings of your opponent and how to deal with them. But once you have the majority of those down, you simply skyrocket ahead of terrans due to them still relying on 2 base or 3 base pushes. There is no doubt in my mind that protoss is the strongest right now, but with the upcoming warpgate tweak ( and the hinted collosus nerf ) I can see this changing around. Personally I would love that collosi don't have that much of a prominent role in PvT. Because man, + Show Spoiler [MCvsThorzain spoiler] + that game on Tal Darim altar between MC and thorzain was the most entertaining match I have seein PvT in a long long time. /Balance thoughs Amazing interviews Artosis at the first question it seemed like losira just understood you and immedately wanted to answer. Maybe his english is pretty good, or hes just psyching everyone out. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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Bergys
Sweden337 Posts
On April 24 2011 20:49 Endorsed wrote: I feel terran has gotten definitely weaker. TvZ might be belanced, but on big maps. It's so extremely difficult to play TvZ and I see why every terran has a hard time playing against zerg .Against protoss on big maps is silly aswell. Protoss gets a safe fast expand, terran does not and has to prepare for a million and one things. 4 gate, 3gate star, 3 gate robo, 6 gate, 5 gate. Just to name a few. Combine that with the fact that late game protoss is actually superior and they can't be touched because of forcefields, it's incredible hard to break a protoss. Zerg is still the weakest overall. I feel it's Protoss>Terran>Zerg. I think this might actually change into Protoss>zerg>terran once zergs get good with fungal usage. Just like gateway units cost inefficiency. Gateway units are cost inefficient unless you have superior upgrades or it is a small engagement where you can rape face with force fields. In a big battle gateway units are not cost-efficient against pretty much anything. | ||
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silverraygun
United Kingdom32 Posts
On April 24 2011 21:14 Yaotzin wrote: Early game is unforgiving for everyone. Simply not having much stuff makes the impact of losing any of it pretty painful. Ask any toss how bad it hurts to lose just a couple of sentries when 3gate expanding. Zerg not only has to deal with stuff like bunker cheese, pylon proxy/cannon shenanigans, banshees, hellions, possibly DTs, but couple all this with zerg's pretty lousy scouting options early on, and that zerg don't have walls, and have to micro hard to deal with whatever is thrown at them means that it is especially more unforgiving since sometimes its just a guessing game plus you have to play better in these circumstances to survive against somebody of equal measure. I've heard a lot of pros from even non-zergs all acknowledge these things. Well, yeah. And Protoss units are slow so a mistake is harder to extricate yourself from. Tanks rely totally on their support so if you get caught chasing mutas or something you die, etc etc. Starcraft is just a very unforgiving game in general. Zerg isn't moreso, just in different ways. Stalkers are pretty quick. But I still think that zerg is less forgiving in terms of mistakes just because everything from zerg dies so much faster if you get caught out, also having to bring in the drone management issue again, just because odd timings will just kill you and there's almost nothing you could have done unless you had a perfect scout/read (almost impossible these days unless they mess up or you get real lucky). Other than sucking, what about them? Pretty expensive, pretty terrible - cost inefficient for a tier 3 unit that also takes ages to build/tech to. | ||
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silverraygun
United Kingdom32 Posts
On April 24 2011 21:27 Bergys wrote: Gateway units are cost inefficient unless you have superior upgrades or it is a small engagement where you can rape face with force fields. In a big battle gateway units are not cost-efficient against pretty much anything. Chrono-boosting those upgrades (often on two forges) is pretty good I hear. Anybody remember when Adelscott stomped mvp? Gateway units were surprisingly good when you get that fast armour upgrade. Oops, double post.. sorry. | ||
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CEPEHDREI
Germany1521 Posts
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Shooks
Australia256 Posts
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frucisky
Singapore2170 Posts
On April 24 2011 21:03 Piski wrote: + Show Spoiler + After yesterdays MC vs Thorzain I was happy because the LR thread was mostly balance whine free. Also even the matches felt kinda even so I don't know from where this Terran is weak shit is coming from. Thorzain just took out MC 3-2 in mid/long macro games. This is why pro players should stay quiet about their opinions and just talk to blizzard directly. Everytime some progamer says this or that race is weak, it enables all the whine to start and when before nobody was saying anything, suddenly it's "oh my god so this is why I have been losing". + Show Spoiler + Also saying that after he just won a GSL WC Championshit against another Terran seems kinda stupid. I hate the title of this thread, the way it incites balance discussion. He believes T has to be aggressive to stay on par with other races - Z will outmacro T and P will out-deathball T unless T decides to mech. He stated that Terran feels weak in the context of large GSL maps because harassing got a lot harder. Also, what do you expect him to do when Artosis goes around asking that question to everyone. There would be no problem with progamers commenting on balance if the community is mature enough to understand why the progamers say so rather than bickering. | ||
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ploy
United States416 Posts
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
Protoss also has warpgates which makes 4 gates as strong on a small map as a big map. While say 2 rax pressure early becomes way weaker on larger maps. Not anything major, we all saw ThorZain play brilliantly yesterday. But its still there. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
I love these kind of interviews. It adds personality to the game. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On April 24 2011 21:29 silverraygun wrote: Zerg not only has to deal with stuff like bunker cheese, pylon proxy/cannon shenanigans, banshees, hellions, possibly DTs, but couple all this with zerg's pretty lousy scouting options early on, and that zerg don't have walls, and have to micro hard to deal with whatever is thrown at them means that it is especially more unforgiving since sometimes its just a guessing game plus you have to play better in these circumstances to survive against somebody of equal measure. I've heard a lot of pros from even non-zergs all acknowledge these things. The cloaked stuff is unforgiving for everyone, as are hellions in your mineral line. Bunkers are cheesy as hell but I don't know what that has to do with this topic. Cannons punish greediness and are otherwise useless. Either way nothing to do with forgivingness. Stalkers are pretty quick. But I still think that zerg is less forgiving in terms of mistakes just because everything from zerg dies so much faster if you get caught out, also having to bring in the drone management issue again, just because odd timings will just kill you and there's almost nothing you could have done unless you had a perfect scout/read (almost impossible these days unless they mess up or you get real lucky). Stalkers are slower than all of ling/bling/roach, and that's toss's fastest unit. So yeah, pretty damn slow. Zerg stuff dies fast but runs fast, Toss stuff dies slower but runs slower. Not much difference. Pretty expensive, pretty terrible - cost inefficient for a tier 3 unit that also takes ages to build/tech to. So they're a kinda bad unit that needs a buff. That just makes them a bad unit, it doesn't make Zerg cost inefficient. Happily this issue is entirely objective: just go look at the unit lost/resources count in replays. If Zerg were cost inefficient, they would rack up larger losses than their opponent even when winning. This does not happen. I mean, it can, if they outmacro their opponent but fight badly, but that applies to all races. | ||
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FarbrorAbavna
Sweden4856 Posts
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jaydee81
Germany119 Posts
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
Thank you for these insightful videos into the IM house, Artosis. You are a very dedicated person! | ||
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Copymizer
Denmark2084 Posts
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Robinsa
Japan1333 Posts
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silverraygun
United Kingdom32 Posts
On April 24 2011 22:02 Yaotzin wrote: The cloaked stuff is unforgiving for everyone, as are hellions in your mineral line. Bunkers are cheesy as hell but I don't know what that has to do with this topic. Cannons punish greediness and are otherwise useless. Either way nothing to do with forgivingness. Cheese forces you to react well or lose, and zergs tend to be cheesed quite a lot early game. Cloaked stuff especially banshees are marginally harder to deal with as Zerg since early anti air can be a problem unless your build involves a lot of queens and you might be totally blind to it. And remember theres no wall off to prevent stuff running into your base, harrassing and scouting. Stalkers are slower than all of ling/bling/roach, and that's toss's fastest unit. So yeah, pretty damn slow. Zerg stuff dies fast but runs fast, Toss stuff dies slower but runs slower. Not much difference. Those fast units have to be fast otherwise they are almost entirely useless. Protoss units are far more durable and more efficient as the game gets longer, especially with faster upgrades. So they're a kinda bad unit that needs a buff. That just makes them a bad unit, it doesn't make Zerg cost inefficient. That was just the main most obvious example, but hydras off creep, mutas have to harrass a ton and exploit mobility really well to make up for their cost, even zergling/baneling can eat up a lot of resources for you just to stay level pegging with your opponent if you are unable to make any decisive move that gives you the lead/win. If Zerg were cost inefficient, they would rack up larger losses than their opponent even when winning. This DOES happen a lot from personal playing experience and theres plenty of games where zerg will lose a lot of units to barely win, even when outplaying their opponents quite noticeably. In any case I don't want to be keep being offtopic, so you have your differing opinions, I'll have mine. | ||
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ThunderGod
New Zealand897 Posts
On April 24 2011 20:11 Callous wrote: I play Zerg and even I know that Terran mechanics are way harder. Toss is probably the easiest to play and Zerg perhaps the most frustrating, but in terms of which race has the hardest multitasking I'd have to say it's Terran. None of the races have "difficult" mechanics. I hear quite a bit that Terran have the hardest but as a Terran player I would say they are not difficult. I mean all there is to do is mule and pump units from 3 hotkeys (rax,fac,port) and manage addons/upgrades. + Show Spoiler + Everything in SC2 is easier than pumping marines individually from 12 barracks every 24 seconds and fixing the rally points from all of them when under attack. The races have different difficulties but mechanics aren't one of them. Zerg: Scouting and unit composition very important. Larvae management (not the larvae mechanic). Terran: Multitasking important, i.e harass heavy/positioning (e.g. tanks)/all units require micro in battle (mmm, vikings, hellions, tanks on banelings etc) and require it throughout the battle Protoss: Forcefielding ...yeah (master this and you master P lol) Terran have a lot of mid-game power through a diverse range of builds (mmm pushes, marine/tank pushes, Thor pushes, banshee/thor, hellion/banshee/marauder, 1/1/1 etc). I would say more-so than Protoss (Voidray/gateway, collosus/gateway, immortal/sentry/zealot). So diversity is a strength of Terran. This is why I feel like a lot of Terran win tournaments in these early days of SC2. Terran can delay their third in favour of any number of power pushes and not take a big eco hit (because mules can help them catch up) (and short maps help too because the opp has fewer production rounds to gain a unit advantage/type against the push). I feel like other races need to gain an earlier economic advantage (through earlier expanding on larger maps OR making the the 2 base push more of an (econ) risk by Blizz delaying the catchup ability i.e. delaying the mule mechanic (perhaps making it upgradeable at the O.C. - thus the T has to choose to go for a long macro game or a more risky timing attack). Though if that were the case Terran may need a buff late game (making the mule upgradeable but more powerful is perhaps the best way - armies max so quickly in SC2 that any explosion of units off three bases with a more powerful mule would only result in ~20 supply advantage by the time they maxed i.e. 200 to 180. ..An idea anyway. At the moment there are three ways to play Terran if you want success 1: Harass heavy style 2: Timing attack (usually in form of mid-game (2base) push) 3: Harass opening into a timing push (e.g. blue flame hellion drop opening into 2 base push) If you don't feel comfortable with harassing or timing attacks I suggest choosing a different race. Because being passive till late game is not a good recipe for Terran + Show Spoiler + lol sorry for rambling Terran guide | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 24 2011 20:00 sleepyguy wrote: Awesome stuff, thank you Artosis! Even though it doesn't seem to fit MVP's personality, maybe he's just trolling xD That would be hilarious. If you reckon a bit, Boxer was saying something around that to explain his slump : he was "thinking" (boxer is so manner) that his race was the weakest, but just after saying it was nothing but a feeling because of his loss. But if boxer is having this feeling, I don't think it's trolling but more a valuable analysis. Now as I said, I don't think they're weak, but I can still understand this statement because it's so easy to loose as terran if your tanks get taken off guard or if you control badly your marine ball. MVP in these vidz seems like a very nice and shy guy, I like his smile, pretty friendly. Seems like there is a good vibe in this pro gaming house. | ||
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diddLY
United States215 Posts
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Nourek
Germany188 Posts
On April 24 2011 21:13 B.I.G. wrote: did i understand correctly that MVP is afraid to go abroad because of the violence? what does he think we are, cavemen who beat eacother to death with blunt objects over the smallest disagreeance? He said bilingual, I think. | ||
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Bergys
Sweden337 Posts
On April 24 2011 21:30 silverraygun wrote: Chrono-boosting those upgrades (often on two forges) is pretty good I hear. Anybody remember when Adelscott stomped mvp? Gateway units were surprisingly good when you get that fast armour upgrade. Oops, double post.. sorry. Just because you chrono-boost 2 forges doesn't mean you get 2-2 vs 0-0. Liquid Tyler used the double forge build vs Thorzain and if the terran keeps up it's nowhere near as useful. | ||
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Vidoc
Finland10 Posts
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grats
United States184 Posts
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ThunderGod
New Zealand897 Posts
On April 24 2011 22:17 silverraygun wrote: Cheese forces you to react well or lose, and zergs tend to be cheesed quite a lot early game. Cloaked stuff especially banshees are marginally harder to deal with as Zerg since early anti air can be a problem unless your build involves a lot of queens and you might be totally blind to it. And remember theres no wall off to prevent stuff running into your base, harrassing and scouting. So react well. I cheese (read: all-in) Zerg a fair bit because I struggle to compete with them late-game at my MMR level (Terran requires a lot of multitasking late-game and either my macro will slip or I become too passive). Some ops will say "that was a clever cheese, gg" and add it to their knowledge. Some will ragequit. And some will beat me because they react well. As for the other thing, building placement for all races is important to protect against harassment, including walling. I see many games where Zerg will wall with spine/hatch/queen/lings at nat and throw up an evo to protect against hellion runby, then cancel it after. Once you have lings being scouted is not a problem and you can usually get in with a drone before an ops wall is complete (if you are unlucky and scout last position you may need to sac an overlord true). | ||
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stevarius
United States1394 Posts
On April 24 2011 22:33 WhiteDog wrote: If you reckon a bit, Boxer was saying something around that to explain his slump : he was "thinking" (boxer is so manner) that his race was the weakest, but just after saying it was nothing but a feeling because of his loss. But if boxer is having this feeling, I don't think it's trolling but more a valuable analysis. Now as I said, I don't think they're weak, but I can still understand this statement because it's so easy to loose as terran if your tanks get taken off guard or if you control badly your marine ball. MVP in these vidz seems like a very nice and shy guy, I like his smile, pretty friendly. Seems like there is a good vibe in this pro gaming house. MVP's feeling towards balance is due to the large maps hindering Terran's ability to be aggressive. | ||
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CluEleSs_UK
United Kingdom583 Posts
"What?" | ||
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Azzur
Australia6259 Posts
Artosis fighting! | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
Terran I will just mass T1 units aka Marauders vs Everything protoss do HT, Changelots, Blink, Inmortals, Collosus, Zerg I will just mass T1 units aka Roaches or Lingz+Blingz vs Everything protoss do i dont see why Terran and even Zerg players QQing so much While Watching TSL3 Ro8 on TalDarim Terran Player just keep doing MMM, while Protoss Player had to do T3units. T3 units vs T1 units is not fair. how is T weak when they just need to spam T1 units? Yesterday night on iNcontroL`s Stream, he played a Zerg that Mass Roaches and won the game. we are not talking about a ramdon Protoss player, is iNcontroL losing to mass roaches. WTF? Once Roaches are 2-2 they just dont die. | ||
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ruiyang
252 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44185 Posts
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Armsved
Denmark642 Posts
On April 24 2011 23:21 2GRe-Play- wrote: I dont get why Terran its the Weakest when in TvP at least is harder for Toss Terran I will just mass T1 units aka Marauders vs Everything protoss do HT, Changelots, Blink, Inmortals, Collosus, Zerg I will just mass T1 units aka Roaches or Lingz+Blingz vs Everything protoss do i dont see why Terran and even Zerg players QQing so much While Watching TSL3 Ro8 on TalDarim Terran Player just keep doing MMM, while Protoss Player had to do T3units. T3 units vs T1 units is not fair. how is T weak when they just need to spam T1 units? Yesterday night on iNcontroL`s Stream, he played a Zerg that Mass Roaches and won the game. we are not talking about a ramdon Protoss player, is iNcontroL losing to mass roaches. WTF? Once Roaches are 2-2 they just dont die. you sir are filled with stupidity | ||
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Blizzard_torments_me
Romania199 Posts
On April 24 2011 23:21 2GRe-Play- wrote: I dont get why Terran its the Weakest when in TvP at least is harder for Toss Terran I will just mass T1 units aka Marauders vs Everything protoss do HT, Changelots, Blink, Inmortals, Collosus, Zerg I will just mass T1 units aka Roaches or Lingz+Blingz vs Everything protoss do i dont see why Terran and even Zerg players QQing so much While Watching TSL3 Ro8 on TalDarim Terran Player just keep doing MMM, while Protoss Player had to do T3units. T3 units vs T1 units is not fair. how is T weak when they just need to spam T1 units? Sorry dude but mech is very risky to do vs toss on a map like tal'darim altar where your mobillity can be abused to hell. Furthermore chargelots are to good of a mineral dump and are very cost effective vs mech ,while mech is really hard to remax. Even bio mech is risky because you are limited to the speed of your tanks even if you have bio. So that is why most terrans use bio , and that is with limited success too. I have seen mech and biomech used with not much success in allot of tourneys. It seems it all comes down to a timing attack because late game mech/biomech is just too immobile. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On April 24 2011 23:21 2GRe-Play- wrote: Terran I will just mass T1 units aka Marauders vs Everything protoss do HT, Changelots, Blink, Inmortals, Collosus, how much i hate such plain wrong statements. medivacs vikings and ghosts are staple tvp units. tanks/thors become more popular too. if anything P has the more T1 heavy army most of the time since he will have all standart gateway units with a few collos/hts. while the terran will atleast have tons of medivacs and vikings. and i wont even talk about the double forge styles which are basicly zealot spam with some stalkers and sentries mixed in. | ||
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phisku
Belgium864 Posts
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Blizzard_torments_me
Romania199 Posts
On April 24 2011 23:34 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: how much i hate such plain wrong statements. medivacs vikings and ghosts are staple tvp units. tanks/thors become more popular too. if anything P has the more T1 heavy army most of the time since he will have all standart gateway units with a few collos/hts. while the terran will atleast have tons of medivacs and vikings. and i wont even talk about the double forge styles which are basicly zealot spam with some stalkers and sentries mixed in. Totally agree. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On April 24 2011 23:18 sleepingdog wrote: Lol this stupid QQ-comment about terran being weak managed to pretty much destroy this awsome interview-series....at least 99% of the comments are about balance, haha Sigh... he was just saying that the maps right now are forcing terrans to reconfigure their style, as the mass mass aggression style is harder to do on these larger maps. I think most people would agree with that. Really, we probably should change the title of the thread, but I guess the whole point of it was to grab attention. | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
This haha it ceases to amaze me how quickly people jump behind what someone says as truth or dismiss it as false without even at least considering it. I think a lot of people would have less stupid opinions if they actually considered what the article was about. On topic, thanks Artosis! I really appreciate the content you put on here. | ||
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Ikkuh
Netherlands170 Posts
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
On April 24 2011 23:34 phisku wrote: i giggled when losira said that zerg is easier with A-move than terran thats true, u dont need to make thing more than that with Z | ||
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SilverPotato
United States560 Posts
On April 24 2011 23:21 2GRe-Play- wrote: I dont get why Terran its the Weakest when in TvP at least is harder for Toss Terran I will just mass T1 units aka Marauders vs Everything protoss do HT, Changelots, Blink, Inmortals, Collosus, Zerg I will just mass T1 units aka Roaches or Lingz+Blingz vs Everything protoss do i dont see why Terran and even Zerg players QQing so much While Watching TSL3 Ro8 on TalDarim Terran Player just keep doing MMM, while Protoss Player had to do T3units. T3 units vs T1 units is not fair. how is T weak when they just need to spam T1 units? Yesterday night on iNcontroL`s Stream, he played a Zerg that Mass Roaches and won the game. we are not talking about a ramdon Protoss player, is iNcontroL losing to mass roaches. WTF? Once Roaches are 2-2 they just dont die. I'm sorry but what game are you playing? Because we're talking about Starcraft 2 v1.3.2 here not v0.9. | ||
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TheWarbler
United States1659 Posts
On April 24 2011 23:21 2GRe-Play- wrote: I dont get why Terran its the Weakest when in TvP at least is harder for Toss Terran I will just mass T1 units aka Marauders vs Everything protoss do HT, Changelots, Blink, Inmortals, Collosus, Zerg I will just mass T1 units aka Roaches or Lingz+Blingz vs Everything protoss do i dont see why Terran and even Zerg players QQing so much While Watching TSL3 Ro8 on TalDarim Terran Player just keep doing MMM, while Protoss Player had to do T3units. T3 units vs T1 units is not fair. how is T weak when they just need to spam T1 units? Yesterday night on iNcontroL`s Stream, he played a Zerg that Mass Roaches and won the game. we are not talking about a ramdon Protoss player, is iNcontroL losing to mass roaches. WTF? Once Roaches are 2-2 they just dont die. First statement is wrong. Second Statement zerg really does not have anything else considering hydras blow. MMM is not all t1. Marines are t1 maruders I consider them t2 ghosts are 2.5 medivacs are t2. Your stupid. Last Statement roaches die if you keep up in upgrades. Go to the doctor you might be a little bit retarded. | ||
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phisku
Belgium864 Posts
On April 25 2011 00:10 2GRe-Play- wrote: thats true, u dont need to make thing more than that with Z i play terran so i tottaly aprove | ||
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GiantEnemyCrab
Canada503 Posts
On April 24 2011 23:30 Armsved wrote: I dont get why Terran its the Weakest when in TvP at least is harder for Toss Terran I will just mass T1 units aka Marauders vs Everything protoss do HT, Changelots, Blink, Inmortals, Collosus, stupid bronze leaguer. bio ballers are countered by senteries (good FFs) or T2 of toss and many pros HAVE to use T2> units to stay in the game like ghost, medivacs, tanks, and vikings. if lose to just bio alone you suck | ||
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douche
Sweden42 Posts
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FataLe
New Zealand4495 Posts
On April 24 2011 23:21 2GRe-Play- wrote: I dont get why Terran its the Weakest when in TvP at least is harder for Toss Terran I will just mass T1 units aka Marauders vs Everything protoss do HT, Changelots, Blink, Inmortals, Collosus, Zerg I will just mass T1 units aka Roaches or Lingz+Blingz vs Everything protoss do i dont see why Terran and even Zerg players QQing so much While Watching TSL3 Ro8 on TalDarim Terran Player just keep doing MMM, while Protoss Player had to do T3units. T3 units vs T1 units is not fair. how is T weak when they just need to spam T1 units? Yesterday night on iNcontroL`s Stream, he played a Zerg that Mass Roaches and won the game. we are not talking about a ramdon Protoss player, is iNcontroL losing to mass roaches. WTF? Once Roaches are 2-2 they just dont die. I play Protoss. But damn dude. Educate yourself. Seriously. | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
On April 24 2011 23:21 2GRe-Play- wrote: I dont get why Terran its the Weakest when in TvP at least is harder for Toss Terran I will just mass T1 units aka Marauders vs Everything protoss do HT, Changelots, Blink, Inmortals, Collosus, Zerg I will just mass T1 units aka Roaches or Lingz+Blingz vs Everything protoss do i dont see why Terran and even Zerg players QQing so much While Watching TSL3 Ro8 on TalDarim Terran Player just keep doing MMM, while Protoss Player had to do T3units. T3 units vs T1 units is not fair. how is T weak when they just need to spam T1 units? Yesterday night on iNcontroL`s Stream, he played a Zerg that Mass Roaches and won the game. we are not talking about a ramdon Protoss player, is iNcontroL losing to mass roaches. WTF? Once Roaches are 2-2 they just dont die. dude... have you actually played the game? | ||
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Twistacles
Canada1327 Posts
On April 25 2011 00:22 Pulimuli wrote: dude... have you actually played the game? I don't think he has. | ||
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Supamang
United States2298 Posts
either hes a troll or a very enraged newbie. im leaning more towards troll, but either way he shouldnt talk anymore. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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elf.Rough
Uganda22 Posts
going to watch tonight D: | ||
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Noy
Norway17 Posts
Well that's enough information to theorycraft for a while! Much love Artosis, you do amazing work! | ||
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Rylaji
Sweden580 Posts
Imagine someone like Naniwa, MorroW, ThorZaiN etc with some korean bootcamp training! The possibilities are endless! | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 24 2011 22:50 ThunderGod wrote: So react well. I cheese (read: all-in) Zerg a fair bit because I struggle to compete with them late-game at my MMR level (Terran requires a lot of multitasking late-game and either my macro will slip or I become too passive). Some ops will say "that was a clever cheese, gg" and add it to their knowledge. Some will ragequit. And some will beat me because they react well. As for the other thing, building placement for all races is important to protect against harassment, including walling. I see many games where Zerg will wall with spine/hatch/queen/lings at nat and throw up an evo to protect against hellion runby, then cancel it after. Once you have lings being scouted is not a problem and you can usually get in with a drone before an ops wall is complete (if you are unlucky and scout last position you may need to sac an overlord true). So basically, you are admitting that you are not at you're MMR level mechanic wise, and compensate this weakness with "clever cheese". Every zerg get cheesed every two game in ladder game, don't worry we know how to react, like 70% of the time. | ||
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chonkyfire
United States451 Posts
On April 24 2011 23:21 2GRe-Play- wrote: I dont get why Terran its the Weakest when in TvP at least is harder for Toss Terran I will just mass T1 units aka Marauders vs Everything protoss do HT, Changelots, Blink, Inmortals, Collosus, Zerg I will just mass T1 units aka Roaches or Lingz+Blingz vs Everything protoss do i dont see why Terran and even Zerg players QQing so much While Watching TSL3 Ro8 on TalDarim Terran Player just keep doing MMM, while Protoss Player had to do T3units. T3 units vs T1 units is not fair. how is T weak when they just need to spam T1 units? Yesterday night on iNcontroL`s Stream, he played a Zerg that Mass Roaches and won the game. we are not talking about a ramdon Protoss player, is iNcontroL losing to mass roaches. WTF? Once Roaches are 2-2 they just dont die. Did you put take any actual time to think before you posted this? Honestly, it seems like you've played/watched sc2 for maybe a month or still living in the beta days | ||
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IMABUNNEH
United Kingdom1062 Posts
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
On April 25 2011 01:29 WhiteDog wrote: So basically, you are admitting that you are not at you're MMR level mechanic wise, and compensate this weakness with "clever cheese". Every zerg get cheesed every two game in ladder game, don't worry we know how to react, like 70% of the time. I doubt any top player would disagree that Terran is very demanding APM wise late game. Much more so than Toss and Zerg. Even Losira said Zerg are very easy to A move. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 25 2011 01:43 Eppa! wrote: I doubt any top player would disagree that Terran is very demanding APM wise late game. Much more so than Toss and Zerg. Even Losira said Zerg are very easy to A move. Yeah, terran army control is the hardest of the 3 race, but mechanics is not only about army control. Terran need good multitasking, period. This does not change what I said. | ||
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CursedRich
United Kingdom737 Posts
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chonkyfire
United States451 Posts
On April 25 2011 01:53 WhiteDog wrote: Yeah, terran army control is the hardest of the 3 race, but mechanics is not only about army control. Terran need good multitasking, period. This does not change what I said. who cares? This game is stupidly easy compared to brood war. You can make an argument this game requires very little mechanical skill at all if your comparing it to another RTS with a strong professional scene. I could probably play Brood war for two weeks straight and still wouldn't be a C player | ||
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toadyy
United Kingdom179 Posts
On April 25 2011 01:53 CursedRich wrote: Just send him the TSL replay pack of Thorzain & film IMMVP blushing artosis, next week we bring you P is the weakest race by MC _interview courtesy of artosis Yea and MVP will probably ask why MC is sat on 11 for the whole game | ||
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Raiznhell
Canada786 Posts
On April 25 2011 00:47 Supamang wrote: either hes a troll or a very enraged newbie. im leaning more towards troll, but either way he shouldnt talk anymore. Aren't you supposed to get bans for things like that? Regardless I thought MVP's point of view on why Terran seems weak is interesting it is kind of true that warp-in pretty much negates the length of the new GSL maps. wonder what he thinks would need to be changed for Terran other than removing such a racial defining mechanic as warp-in. All good interviews and tour as usual Artosis can't wait for SlayerS tour and MMA+BoxeR interview!! | ||
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j3i
United States357 Posts
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Niruz
Sweden169 Posts
On April 24 2011 12:38 KevinIX wrote: Honestly, all SC2 mechanics are nothing compared to BW. No race is hard compared to BW. You youngins just need to suck it up. Protoss, Terran, and Zerg (yes Zerg too) are not hard. The hard part is not the race mechanics. People need to stop judging which race is harder than which race, because none of that matters. If I am missing production cycles, it's because I'm bad. Not because my race is "hard". This is so insanely good, people in brood war dont complain about races being bad because they didnt have their mechanics down, yet somehow if you lose versus a terran zerg or protoss its because youre race is so hard you missed a larva inject, didnt build the right units, forgot a warping cycle etc etc Just play better is really the only answer, unit balancing on the other hand is what makes matchups hard | ||
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chonkyfire
United States451 Posts
Six months ago terran was unbeatable, now they are the weakest. $20 says terran is ridiculously OP again by september. | ||
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
On April 25 2011 00:49 Mehukannu wrote: Guys, stop picking on that poor 2GRE-play dude, even though he is stupid and all, but he is probably hiding in a closet from all the hating. =P I dont post bacause i see to much Terran icons with low post count so, those ppl are bad and dont understand the game more than what they see. User was warned for this post User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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chonkyfire
United States451 Posts
On April 25 2011 02:26 2GRe-Play- wrote: I dont post bacause i see to much Terran icons with low post count so, those ppl are bad and dont understand the game more than what they see. I'm quoting this because its funny you can't see that you are the most biased poster in the last 4 pages, and then use the terran icon defense. lol | ||
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
Expecting toss nerfs next patch. | ||
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IntoTheBush
United States552 Posts
now i know that everyone who doesnt have a lot of experience with terran is going to disagree, but thats because they are bad and 4gate to their platinum division. u ask any top tier terran player and they will agree | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On April 25 2011 02:26 2GRe-Play- wrote: I dont post bacause i see to much Terran icons with low post count so, those ppl are bad and dont understand the game more than what they see. Post count > Brains Sure, that makes perfect sense! Because as we all know, post count is everything. But dude, really, it doesn't work that way. =[ It's like saying someone doesn't understand how to play guitar because he doesn't know that many songs which to play. =P | ||
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Aquafresh
United States824 Posts
On April 25 2011 02:10 Niruz wrote: This is so insanely good, people in brood war dont complain about races being bad because they didnt have their mechanics down, yet somehow if you lose versus a terran zerg or protoss its because youre race is so hard you missed a larva inject, didnt build the right units, forgot a warping cycle etc etc Just play better is really the only answer, unit balancing on the other hand is what makes matchups hard This is something I find really annoying about the SC2 community right now. Everyone thinks they know best and criticizes the losing player saying things like oh he would have won if he made infestors or something. Or whats worse they will take away from the winners accomplishment by whining about balance (although sometimes this is justified.) Hypothetical example of what I'm talking about. Lets say Jaedong loses a ton of drones and all of his sunkens to a bust from a Terran player and is set way behind. The Terran takes has a bigger army, better economy, and all his tech up and Jaedong is scrambling just to get his 3rd up and running proper. 25 minutes later Jaedong uses some brilliant defiler control to take out a few much bigger Terran armies and crawl back into the game. A few minutes after that he breaks his opponent and wins. Here is what the comments look like. BW LR thread: "Holy shit Jaedong is fucking SICK" SC2 LR thread: "LOL Terran can't when lategame once defilers are out" "Terran was an idiot for not switching to mech" "Use Valkries LOL" "-sigh- Blizard really needs to fix Dark Swarm, or maybe just consume. Jaedong should not have won this game." Gets really depressing to read this kind of bullshit after an epic game. God forbid a Protoss claws his way back against a Terran after getting hammered early in a future TSL/GSL game. I doubt you will hear about anything other than the desire for a balance patch. | ||
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chonkyfire
United States451 Posts
On April 25 2011 02:34 IntoTheBush wrote: i agree that terran is the weakest at HIGH levels.. They are slow, lack the ability to mass quickly(besides marines of course), and its the most micro intensive race in the game. no wonder why its so hard to play perfectly. I don't get this lack of ability to mass quickly argument. It doesn't even make sense. Terran can spend 3k resources just as fast as a zerg Every race also certainly takes a lot of micro to play. They are all different from each other though and have a uniqueness to them. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On April 25 2011 03:15 Aquafresh wrote: This is something I find really annoying about the SC2 community right now. Everyone thinks they know best and criticizes the losing player saying things like oh he would have won if he made infestors or something. Or whats worse they will take away from the winners accomplishment by whining about balance (although sometimes this is justified.) Hypothetical example of what I'm talking about. Lets say Jaedong loses a ton of drones and all of his sunkens to a bust from a Terran player and is set way behind. The Terran takes has a bigger army, better economy, and all his tech up and Jaedong is scrambling just to get his 3rd up and running proper. 25 minutes later Jaedong uses some brilliant defiler control to take out a few much bigger Terran armies and crawl back into the game. A few minutes after that he breaks his opponent and wins. Here is what the comments look like. BW LR thread: "Holy shit Jaedong is fucking SICK" SC2 LR thread: "LOL Terran can't when lategame once defilers are out" "Terran was an idiot for not switching to mech" "Use Valkries LOL" "-sigh- Blizard really needs to fix Dark Swarm, or maybe just consume. Jaedong should not have won this game." Gets really depressing to read this kind of bullshit after an epic game. God forbid a Protoss claws his way back against a Terran after getting hammered early in a future TSL/GSL game. I doubt you will hear about anything other than the desire for a balance patch. I completely agree, a lot(or at least the more vocal ones) of the SC2 community have such a rotten attitude towards the game.I especially liked your example because that is probably what could happen. But *sigh* lets not forget that the BW community didn't have a lot of balance complainers thing is that the whiners here think Blizzard is going to change stuff based on the crap they post | ||
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Qzy
Denmark1121 Posts
Let me just fall down laughing my ass off =) And they are pro? | ||
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Aquafresh
United States824 Posts
On April 25 2011 03:23 windsupernova wrote: I completely agree, a lot(or at least the more vocal ones) of the SC2 community have such a rotten attitude towards the game.I especially liked your example because that is probably what could happen. But *sigh* lets not forget that the BW community didn't have a lot of balance complainers thing is that the whiners here think Blizzard is going to change stuff based on the crap they post Oh yeah definitely. I remember when people basically dismissed every PvZ loss as imbalance and it was thought that all the Zergs needed to hit Terrans for a Protoss to win a Starleague. The BW community had its balance whining, especially among Protoss (when discussing the pro scene) and concerning Protoss (when discussing the foreign scene). It is just disappointing that the SC2 scene didn't inherit the attitude toward the game that later developed in the BW community among all the other things it did end up inheriting. | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
Interviews and content like this are always great to watch though Keep on trucking man, your passion for the game and the community is outstanding | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Anyway seems like the community is slowly getting better as it takes more and more pages until the imba screams take over ^.^ . But i agree on the if you hate enough blizzard will change it thing, I really wish they would wait till HotS for more balancing. Unless the general pro win ratio jumps up to 80% for one race unimportant of the map xD over a few month. | ||
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zeemless
Sweden58 Posts
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arterian
Canada1157 Posts
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
On April 25 2011 03:15 Aquafresh wrote: This is something I find really annoying about the SC2 community right now. Everyone thinks they know best and criticizes the losing player saying things like oh he would have won if he made infestors or something. Or whats worse they will take away from the winners accomplishment by whining about balance (although sometimes this is justified.) Hypothetical example of what I'm talking about. Lets say Jaedong loses a ton of drones and all of his sunkens to a bust from a Terran player and is set way behind. The Terran takes has a bigger army, better economy, and all his tech up and Jaedong is scrambling just to get his 3rd up and running proper. 25 minutes later Jaedong uses some brilliant defiler control to take out a few much bigger Terran armies and crawl back into the game. A few minutes after that he breaks his opponent and wins. Here is what the comments look like. BW LR thread: "Holy shit Jaedong is fucking SICK" SC2 LR thread: "LOL Terran can't when lategame once defilers are out" "Terran was an idiot for not switching to mech" "Use Valkries LOL" "-sigh- Blizard really needs to fix Dark Swarm, or maybe just consume. Jaedong should not have won this game." Gets really depressing to read this kind of bullshit after an epic game. God forbid a Protoss claws his way back against a Terran after getting hammered early in a future TSL/GSL game. I doubt you will hear about anything other than the desire for a balance patch. Sounds mostly like nostalgia or something. I really don't think it was good as everyone wants to remember. | ||
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Dubpace
United States251 Posts
On April 25 2011 02:10 Niruz wrote: This is so insanely good, people in brood war dont complain about races being bad because they didnt have their mechanics down, yet somehow if you lose versus a terran zerg or protoss its because youre race is so hard you missed a larva inject, didnt build the right units, forgot a warping cycle etc etc Just play better is really the only answer, unit balancing on the other hand is what makes matchups hard I don't think you get it. Why so many people feel imbalance in the game is because there is room for 0 mistakes for a Zerg to make (can't speak for Protoss) but Terran can make many mistakes. That is what creates imbalance. | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
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Ryps
Romania2740 Posts
On April 25 2011 02:26 2GRe-Play- wrote: I dont post bacause i see to much Terran icons with low post count so, those ppl are bad and dont understand the game more than what they see. Maybe get off your high horse and tell us your rank and then explain us how to play terran, since you seem to understand the game better than every terran out there. Your posts are asking for trouble. | ||
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BearStorm
United States795 Posts
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garrett
United States7 Posts
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S.O.L.I.D.
United States792 Posts
On April 25 2011 03:31 Qzy wrote: "Terran is the weakest race"? Let me just fall down laughing my ass off =) And they are pro? It's Mvp, the best Terran in the world. I don't want to start a stupid balance discussion but who do you think the weakest race is? I see you have a Protoss icon; do you think Protoss is the weakest race? | ||
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anatem
Romania1369 Posts
what i just said. great content. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On April 24 2011 20:08 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: basic macro stuff (injecting,producing, creep/OL spread etc) is way more apm intensive then t/p Injecting is about as APM intensive as muling, but less forgiving, offset by the more forgiving passive larva generation. Creep spreading and OL spreading, try sim citying and making proper amounts of unit producing buildings and keeping up with supply depots. I've yet to see a zerg who tried terran who doesn't rage about supply depots. (or get 2000 minerals 300 gas because he doesn't know how many unit producing buildings of what type he needs.) | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On April 25 2011 02:26 2GRe-Play- wrote: I dont post bacause i see to much Terran icons with low post count so, those ppl are bad and dont understand the game more than what they see. Judging by your earlier comment, you understand the game less than what you see. Given that you seem to think that roaches > protoss you can't be higher than, say, gold league. If that. No offence intended. But you're in absolutely no position to be commenting on who is bad and who doesn't understand the game. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On April 25 2011 03:15 Aquafresh wrote: This is something I find really annoying about the SC2 community right now. Everyone thinks they know best and criticizes the losing player saying things like oh he would have won if he made infestors or something. Or whats worse they will take away from the winners accomplishment by whining about balance (although sometimes this is justified.) Hypothetical example of what I'm talking about. Lets say Jaedong loses a ton of drones and all of his sunkens to a bust from a Terran player and is set way behind. The Terran takes has a bigger army, better economy, and all his tech up and Jaedong is scrambling just to get his 3rd up and running proper. 25 minutes later Jaedong uses some brilliant defiler control to take out a few much bigger Terran armies and crawl back into the game. A few minutes after that he breaks his opponent and wins. Here is what the comments look like. BW LR thread: "Holy shit Jaedong is fucking SICK" SC2 LR thread: "LOL Terran can't when lategame once defilers are out" "Terran was an idiot for not switching to mech" "Use Valkries LOL" "-sigh- Blizard really needs to fix Dark Swarm, or maybe just consume. Jaedong should not have won this game." Gets really depressing to read this kind of bullshit after an epic game. God forbid a Protoss claws his way back against a Terran after getting hammered early in a future TSL/GSL game. I doubt you will hear about anything other than the desire for a balance patch. Or maybe you could realize that those moves in BW took significantly more skill than the equivalent in SC2. It takes INCREDIBLE amounts of control to execute those come backs. If smart casting and better pathing was incorporated into the same example matchup, those abilities WOULD be broken and jaedong would only need one hand to execute the same "brilliant" defiler control. The problem with a protoss clawing his way back (or any race for that matter) usually isn't with brilliant unit control, but with 10-15 minutes of turtling into a large push with a cost effective army. | ||
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Winterfrozz
Sweden357 Posts
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
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silverraygun
United Kingdom32 Posts
On April 25 2011 06:05 tdt wrote: Did anyone notice Losira said he likes Zerg because it's A move? It's basically true except infestors. Only if you're in a commanding lead, otherwise you have to micro your units a little bit, instead of blindly A-moving and getting splattered by siege fire and marine dps | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 25 2011 06:11 silverraygun wrote: Only if you're in a commanding lead, otherwise you have to micro your units a little bit, instead of blindly A-moving and getting splattered by siege fire and marine dps Well every race has to position properly but compared to T or P who have to blink/FF/hallucinate/ grav beam, siege, stim, 250mm cannon etc etc etc Zerg has relatively few casting to do in battle. You could say burrow but that's pretty worthless in battle with scans and observers. | ||
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Roxy
Canada753 Posts
If I was IMMvp I would be pretty pissed off if I was represented as a QQer because I was misquoted He said that he thinks some of the larger maps are unfavorable to Terran in the sense that they cant re-enforce their attacks as well as the warp-in protoss units and the fast zerg units. | ||
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SecondSandwich
United States319 Posts
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SKYFISH_
Bulgaria990 Posts
So MVP said nothing in the lines of Terran being UP and yet people are already flaming him hardcore. I suppose its like the local saying we have around here - If the word is already out that your sister is a whore you'll have a pretty tough time explaining to people that you never had a sister to begin with. | ||
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Grampz
United States2147 Posts
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Jimbo77
139 Posts
It was on XlnagaCaverns. So zerg at one point of time had 6 broodlords, and commentator (HD) was saying exactly following: "Wow... for terran it is nearly impossible to win a game when zerg has such amount of brudlords". Why is that?... What am i talking about here? Well, tell me plz, how many games did you see in pro level that terran did manage to win when zerg was able to afford >6 Broodlords with corruptors support?? I suppose not so many. Why it is? Simple: Terran doesn't have any good AA unit. Against corrupters you have to MASS vikings, that eventually leads in the weakness of the rest of army. In BW there were Goliaths, now there is no. Lot of people talk that you should not allow zerg to grow up to a late game with >4 bases. But it's just fundamentally stupid. It is not strategy, it's timing arcade. You did manage to beat your opponent before 27 min. mark -> ok you win, you did not -> you loose. And one more thing: terran has the most micro and macro intensive management, all the more so in the late game. Zerg is just a-move race. The bigger map is the more difficult for T to win, it's absolutely true. Cuz It's all about drops. Tl,DR Terran late game is the most weak of all of three and you don't have to be MVP to understand it. | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
I don't think it's wrong of MVP to claim that. T are slightly disadvantaged against both zerg and protoss on the huge maps. While Z are hugely disadvantaged vs P and have a refuge in the ZvT matchup. Cross position ZvT on the GSL-maps is literally a-move. | ||
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
On April 25 2011 07:14 LaLuSh wrote: Terran is the weakest race because of the new maps. And because Blizzard patched 500 out of their 1000 possible rushes out of existence. I don't think it's wrong of MVP to claim that. T are slightly disadvantaged against both zerg and protoss on the huge maps. While Z are hugely disadvantaged vs P and have a refuge in the ZvT matchup. Cross position ZvT on the GSL-maps is literally a-move. Terran are not at a disadvantage on large maps at all. In fact, a 3 base terran can kill a 4/5 base zerg outright quite easily, it happens all the time. The entire zerg metagame is defending those 3 base pushes and trying desperately to stop a 4th base planetary from finishing and dragging the game on longer, or rushing to brood lord so we can finally be aggressive. | ||
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CScythe
Canada810 Posts
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
why should one race be able to keep one strategy even after several patches?marine/tank all the way worked long enough in the very same way | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On April 25 2011 06:05 tdt wrote: Did anyone notice Losira said he likes Zerg because it's A move? It's basically true except infestors. It's because the zerg simply don't got micro units except the infestors. Well maybe burrow but that gets negated by 1 detector, i really wish there was a way to micro more as zerg with cool spells. | ||
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Jimbo77
139 Posts
If the last, well, it's one more evidence that BW is balanced game, contrary SC2 which is not. | ||
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Absolutionn
United States512 Posts
On April 25 2011 08:04 Assirra wrote: It's because the zerg simply don't got micro units except the infestors. Well maybe burrow but that gets negated by 1 detector, i really wish there was a way to micro more as zerg with cool spells. Muta micro? Bling micro? Flanking? Drop Micro(which hasnt been used much but it there)? and infestors as you mentioned before. Zerg has plenty of micro, I play zerg and toss and I think Zerg has way more micro than toss after you leave the midgame and toss just gets a big ball. (I just use protoss as an example because people say its the micro race.) | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On April 25 2011 08:09 Absolutionn wrote: Muta micro? Bling micro? Flanking? Drop Micro(which hasnt been used much but it there)? and infestors as you mentioned before. Zerg has plenty of micro, I play zerg and toss and I think Zerg has way more micro than toss after you leave the midgame and toss just gets a big ball. (I just use protoss as an example because people say its the micro race.) No zerg micro matches the difficulty of marine split micro. Flanking is pre battle micro, aka more positioning. Muta micro is just like any other micro, you move in and out, hit stop to magic box if you must, etc. | ||
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noezke
England514 Posts
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chonkyfire
United States451 Posts
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
On April 25 2011 08:09 Absolutionn wrote: Muta micro? Bling micro? Flanking? Drop Micro(which hasnt been used much but it there)? and infestors as you mentioned before. Zerg has plenty of micro, I play zerg and toss and I think Zerg has way more micro than toss after you leave the midgame and toss just gets a big ball. (I just use protoss as an example because people say its the micro race.) Toss has Voidray and Zealot micro which is about as hard as muta and bling micro but FF really make toss more micro intense and also there is colossus and templar spiting/kiting. Toss also has Blink. Zerg has bling drops, infestors and burrowed roaches. Hydras generally stay in the back were they belong were as zealots gravitate to the back/centre. | ||
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chonkyfire
United States451 Posts
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GiantEnemyCrab
Canada503 Posts
On April 25 2011 08:04 Alphasquad wrote: zerg players changed their styles against protoss and terrans influenced by the latest patch(but not exclusively), protoss adapt to new zerg strategies but terrans didnt respond to it yet why should one race be able to keep one strategy even after several patches?marine/tank all the way worked long enough in the very same way are you kidding me? TvT and TvZ have changed drastically over the patches. If you remember in the early sc2 days, the main TvZ strategies were mech (thor/hellion) play with hellion openings, quick banshee plays, 5 rax reapers. Tanks one of the most under used. Now TvZ revolves around marine tanks, tanks taking out lings/banelings, and roach/hydra is not used as much anymore. its still changling as infestors are becoming more common, so terrans are starting to use ghost. TvT went from tank/viking to marine/maruder/tank/viking with lot of banshee play. TL DR - Terran strats are always changing as much as the other races, so stop ur crying. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On April 25 2011 07:17 Mailing wrote: Terran are not at a disadvantage on large maps at all. In fact, a 3 base terran can kill a 4/5 base zerg outright quite easily, it happens all the time. The entire zerg metagame is defending those 3 base pushes and trying desperately to stop a 4th base planetary from finishing and dragging the game on longer, or rushing to brood lord so we can finally be aggressive. lol? a 4/5 base zerg will have broodlords out and pushing/defending against broodlords is insanely hard; 3 base terran used to be much scarier, but now zerg can get a really good economy much faster on larger maps because they aren't afraid of any sort of early aggression big maps give the zerg more room to attack the terran when he's being too quick with his siege tank push and slow pushinig just ends up giving the zerg way more time to prepare any sort of early push will be crushed easily, so really the terran has to rely a lot on that high supply push before broodlords come out | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On April 25 2011 08:05 Jimbo77 wrote: Actually it's interesting, can someone remember how it was in Broodwar? Did map size affect the game balance of any of three races or it was absolutely even for all of three independently of map size? If the last, well, it's one more evidence that BW is balanced game, contrary SC2 which is not. Maps did affect the matchups a lot. Many progamers talked about maps being favoured for some races. Really, I am not kidding maps were a huge deal in BW. | ||
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kskusanagi
Korea (South)133 Posts
Im a newb french toss living in Korea, that's for the translation (sign on the door at the IM house tour): "After you get up, put the blankets back in place < and make it pretty!!!> " anything that wanders on the ground will be thrown away (sock, ...etc)" shout out to Artosis~ | ||
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Namu
United States826 Posts
On April 25 2011 07:17 Mailing wrote: Terran are not at a disadvantage on large maps at all. In fact, a 3 base terran can kill a 4/5 base zerg outright quite easily, it happens all the time. The entire zerg metagame is defending those 3 base pushes and trying desperately to stop a 4th base planetary from finishing and dragging the game on longer, or rushing to brood lord so we can finally be aggressive. I'm pretty sure lalush knows how zvt works much better than you.. | ||
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
On April 25 2011 08:05 Jimbo77 wrote: Actually it's interesting, can someone remember how it was in Broodwar? Did map size affect the game balance of any of three races or it was absolutely even for all of three independently of map size? If the last, well, it's one more evidence that BW is balanced game, contrary SC2 which is not. What is really keeping BW balanced through all these year is not only genius design by blizz but how map effect balance. If all games were played on Testbug I think top people would think the game was more balanced at it is really hard to get a an early 3rd. | ||
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thesums
Taiwan257 Posts
On April 24 2011 23:21 2GRe-Play- wrote: [/i]I dont get why Terran its the Weakest when in TvP at least is harder for Toss Terran I will just mass T1 units aka Marauders vs Everything protoss do HT, Changelots, Blink, Inmortals, Collosus, This is the general concept but not always true. In TSL MVP was beaten by basically T1 units. And MMM is not T1, since you are putting in medivacs. (Vikings for colossi are not T1 either and you need a lot of them) Not to mention there is the 4gate that can give protoss easy wins. Even if you fail it, you would have cause enough damage in killing the repairng scvs to expand. Although terrans use the T1 units, they usually need to get superior upgrades as well. To be honest I do not see sentry zealot, and stalker mix losing to MMM provided you have equivalent upgrades and that zealots are in front (lol not many do this). If protoss complain about control grouping separately, terrans can also complain about how they always have to kite zealots. Sure you need to drop force fields, but please, this is not SC1, you do not have to group on multiple hotkeys, it is easy hold F and press. | ||
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ChaseR
Norway1004 Posts
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Suffo
United States936 Posts
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thesums
Taiwan257 Posts
On April 25 2011 08:49 GiantEnemyCrab wrote: are you kidding me? TvT and TvZ have changed drastically over the patches. If you remember in the early sc2 days, the main TvZ strategies were mech (thor/hellion) play with hellion openings, quick banshee plays, 5 rax reapers. Tanks one of the most under used. Now TvZ revolves around marine tanks, tanks taking out lings/banelings, and roach/hydra is not used as much anymore. its still changling as infestors are becoming more common, so terrans are starting to use ghost. TvT went from tank/viking to marine/maruder/tank/viking with lot of banshee play. TL DR - Terran strats are always changing as much as the other races, so stop ur crying. Yea I agree, Terrans are the ones coming up with strats vs zerg. I admit zergs are quite creative versus protoss, but these days zerg is always ling, bane, mutas, with occasional roaches for hellions. Terran has different compositions, although it is standard with tank and rines these days, they mix in blue flamed hellions, marauders and banshees. But tanks are really a result of the bane aggression that zerg likes these days. | ||
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MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
and omg a void ray, omg two void rays lulz very funny. | ||
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
On April 25 2011 08:49 GiantEnemyCrab wrote: are you kidding me? TvT and TvZ have changed drastically over the patches. If you remember in the early sc2 days, the main TvZ strategies were mech (thor/hellion) play with hellion openings, quick banshee plays, 5 rax reapers. Tanks one of the most under used. Now TvZ revolves around marine tanks, tanks taking out lings/banelings, and roach/hydra is not used as much anymore. its still changling as infestors are becoming more common, so terrans are starting to use ghost. TvT went from tank/viking to marine/maruder/tank/viking with lot of banshee play. TL DR - Terran strats are always changing as much as the other races, so stop ur crying. are you kidding me, trolling or are you simply inable to read properly?i havent ever been referring to early days! tank/rine is used since what - the last 3patches?the last 4-5 months?too long =/= since day 1 now infestors got buffed, zergs use it instead of mutas and what do terrans do? still respond with tanks and marines in 9 of 10 zvt and the one game that includes mech is most likely done by players that also did that before and i havent faced a single ghost yet (i also didnt say a single word about TvT) | ||
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Chainfire99
Canada474 Posts
Seems that BW stressed a lot of importance and a higher skill gap for macro and micro ( some due to the unfriendliness or lesser efficiency of the ui and terrible pathfinding and unit ai in general) but maybe less need for consistent scouting? If SC2 has a lot of units that hard counter and win specific engagements then it would seem that SC2 places a greater emphasis on scouting and timings? Instead of the daily criticism of where sc2 is lesser then it's predecessor (bw) does anyone have any improvements that sc2 has made (apart from purdy graphics)? | ||
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ItsMeDomLee
Canada2732 Posts
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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Termit
Sweden3466 Posts
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Endure
Canada287 Posts
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Jimbo77
139 Posts
They should boost the speed of Marines so they have the same speed as speedlings. By the way, zerglings speed available right from the Spawning Pool without Lair-required is as hilarious as if stim did not require techlab. Also speedlings speed at creep is just a joke in my opinion, how tremendous it is. Obviously there is someone in blizz that adore zerg. | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
On April 25 2011 17:28 Jimbo77 wrote: By the way, zerglings speed available right from the Spawning Pool without Lair-required is as hilarious as if stim did not require techlab. Also speedlings speed at creep is just a joke in my opinion, how tremendous it is. Obviously there is someone in blizz that adore zerg. How could zerg win anything if speed required lair? With halfdecent marine/stalker micro zerg would literally never be able to stop those early pressure attacks. | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
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Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
And as far as the sc1 mentality of never talking about balance, SC2 is a different game. There is a lot of room for growth in NA, Europe, Korea and many other countries around the world, if balancing the game improves watch-ability and interest there's no reason not to be proactive about balancing. I do agree that the whining can be annoying, even as a zerg player myself. | ||
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Art_of_Kill
Zaire1232 Posts
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Jimbo77
139 Posts
How could zerg win anything if speed required lair? With halfdecent marine/stalker micro zerg would literally never be able to stop those early pressure attacks. There is something named spine crawlers by the way. | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
On April 25 2011 19:02 Jimbo77 wrote: There is something named spine crawlers by the way. Spine crawlers don't move. Haha. Edit: They don't move in a way in which they can attack and hit fast-moving targets. | ||
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anycolourfloyd
Australia524 Posts
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BlueFlames
Germany1756 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Protoss has Warp Gates and Zerg has the ability to stockpile Larvae as well as Creep/High speed units. Tech switching is IMO also the hardest for Terran, Zerg can switch all their Larvae instantly and Protoss can still warp in either mass Stalker or mass HT. Terran does have the advantage of making it somewhat easier to keep your money consistantly low as your production is constant and smooth. Large maps are only a problem due to the fact the two big meaty units (Siege Tanks and Thors) have such immobility that large maps only further discourage their use and limit their raw firepower. Colossi retain cliff walking and range 9 while mobile and Zerg have the fastest units around. Perhaps Terran could experiment more with moving their production buildings, as they can land anywhere, but I haven't given it a go myself (you'd end up with a lot of addons). Still, I love to play Terran and don't really care too much what others say, I'll keep playing Terran all the same. P.S. I do find it amusing when players complain about Terran being an A-move army/race when they have the most abilities and micro required on a per unit basis. | ||
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Irrational_Animal
Germany1059 Posts
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adRo.
Australia243 Posts
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
On April 25 2011 17:28 Jimbo77 wrote: By the way, zerglings speed available right from the Spawning Pool without Lair-required is as hilarious as if stim did not require techlab. Also speedlings speed at creep is just a joke in my opinion, how tremendous it is. Obviously there is someone in blizz that adore zerg. Have you actually ever tried to kill stalkers or marines that are controlled by a decent player? With even a decent stutter micro those marines just don't die no matter how many lings you make. | ||
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desRow
Canada2654 Posts
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
On April 25 2011 16:25 Termit wrote: They should boost the speed of Marines so they have the same speed as speedlings. I really hope this is a troll post, because if it isn't then someone has somehow never seen stutter step micro. Marines as fast as speedlings would be so op it would make everyone not playing T quit until it got fixed. Stim marines already are fast and have stupid high dps thanks to their smart targeting system and high rof. Making them able to kite everything would be soooo broken. T is not UP. MVP is just terran who, like every other member of every other race, thinks his race is up. Sorry fanboys, but that's just how it works. Imo, the game is really well balanced right at this moment, with the possible exception of the Z v P matchup, but even that seems fine if people would just get away from roach/hydra/infestor, because it seriously NEVER works. | ||
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Blizzard_torments_me
Romania199 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:45 Piski wrote: Have you actually ever tried to kill stalkers or marines that are controlled by a decent player? With even a decent stutter micro those marines just don't die no matter how many lings you make. Yeah,what you don't actually realize is how good that Terran needs to be. People don't realize how good the top Terrans actually are. MVP's multitasking is godlike ,and he actually needs it ,compared to Protoss players.Microing your drops while macroing in base ,while sending another drop ,while poking with your main army isn't really spamming W ,click and chronoboost, E. | ||
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Blizzard_torments_me
Romania199 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:57 Sm3agol wrote: I really hope this is a troll post, because if it isn't then someone has somehow never seen stutter step micro. Marines as fast as speedlings would be so op it would make everyone not playing T quit until it got fixed. Stim marines already are fast and have stupid high dps thanks to their smart targeting system and high rof. Making them able to kite everything would be soooo broken. T is not UP. MVP is just terran who, like every other member of every other race, thinks his race is up. Sorry fanboys, but that's just how it works. Imo, the game is really well balanced right at this moment, with the possible exception of the Z v P matchup, but even that seems fine if people would just get away from roach/hydra/infestor, because it seriously NEVER works. That is clearly a troll post , I can't imagine why you would think otherwise. Every Terran victory vs P I see is a shitty timing attack or purely bad Protoss army composition and play. So yes, MVP is right. You wanna know why MC lost vs Thorzain? GSL Crossfire timing push ,that's why. I can't even remember the last time I've seen a Terran win lategame vs the right Protoss army composition( no , ofc not phoenix colossus). | ||
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:59 Blizzard_torments_me wrote: Yeah,what you don't actually realize is how good that Terran needs to be. People don't realize how good the top Terrans actually are. MVP's multitasking is godlike ,and he actually needs it ,compared to Protoss players.Microing your drops while macroing in base ,while sending another drop ,while poking with your main army isn't really spamming W ,click and chronoboost, E. I'm not saying they are bad. I'm saying that stutter micro is not hard :o I play random and kiting slow lings are easy as hell. I was just replying to the guy who was saying ling speed should go to lair. Edit: Typo | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:57 Sm3agol wrote: I really hope this is a troll post, because if it isn't then someone has somehow never seen stutter step micro. Marines as fast as speedlings would be so op it would make everyone not playing T quit until it got fixed. Stim marines already are fast and have stupid high dps thanks to their smart targeting system and high rof. Making them able to kite everything would be soooo broken. T is not UP. MVP is just terran who, like every other member of every other race, thinks his race is up. Sorry fanboys, but that's just how it works. Imo, the game is really well balanced right at this moment, with the possible exception of the Z v P matchup, but even that seems fine if people would just get away from roach/hydra/infestor, because it seriously NEVER works. The thing about balance is that it's easy to see the strengths of your opponents race but hard to see their weaknesses. And vice versa for your own race. Or maybe that's just the way people approach it. Regardless; as an example (bad) Protoss players will forever be heard to complain that marauders are meant to be countered by zealots but the OP conc shells (which come for basically free and so quickly!) mean that zealots never get close enough to do any damage. What they don't see is the terrans perspective, when he has a bunch of marauders and the protoss has mixed in a whole bunch of zealots into his gateway army. The terran sighs, as he realises he's going to have to kite those fuckers for about a mile because marauders do fuck all damage to zealots, while stalkers get free hits. And if he has good forcefields, well fuck that. God, the terran says to himself, protoss is so OP. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
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Ctoan
Australia75 Posts
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Ohdamn
Germany765 Posts
great interviews! especially nestea :D | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On April 25 2011 21:28 The KY wrote: The thing about balance is that it's easy to see the strengths of your opponents race but hard to see their weaknesses. And vice versa for your own race. Or maybe that's just the way people approach it. Regardless; as an example (bad) Protoss players will forever be heard to complain that marauders are meant to be countered by zealots but the OP conc shells (which come for basically free and so quickly!) mean that zealots never get close enough to do any damage. What they don't see is the terrans perspective, when he has a bunch of marauders and the protoss has mixed in a whole bunch of zealots into his gateway army. The terran sighs, as he realises he's going to have to kite those fuckers for about a mile because marauders do fuck all damage to zealots, while stalkers get free hits. And if he has good forcefields, well fuck that. God, the terran says to himself, protoss is so OP. It's the infamous rock paper scissor logic. I am rock Rock is underpowered Paper is overpowered Scissor is fine | ||
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Ipp
United States456 Posts
On April 25 2011 17:41 Wolf wrote: How could zerg win anything if speed required lair? With halfdecent marine/stalker micro zerg would literally never be able to stop those early pressure attacks. Spanishwa went like 5-2 in grand master using the day9 monday funday of building no more than 12 lings, no hydras, no roaches, no mutas (I think those were all the stipulations). It's all about sim city using queens/spine crawlers as walls. They may not have a "burst" but with transfuse their sustained DPS can generally out last early attacks. That given all ins such as marine/scv will most likely demolish it, but lings have trouble with that aswell | ||
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BleaK_
Norway593 Posts
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:05 Thezzy wrote: Macro wise Terran has a hard time reinforcing at a distance. Protoss has Warp Gates and Zerg has the ability to stockpile Larvae as well as Creep/High speed units. Tech switching is IMO also the hardest for Terran, Zerg can switch all their Larvae instantly and Protoss can still warp in either mass Stalker or mass HT. Terran does have the advantage of making it somewhat easier to keep your money consistantly low as your production is constant and smooth. Large maps are only a problem due to the fact the two big meaty units (Siege Tanks and Thors) have such immobility that large maps only further discourage their use and limit their raw firepower. Colossi retain cliff walking and range 9 while mobile and Zerg have the fastest units around. Perhaps Terran could experiment more with moving their production buildings, as they can land anywhere, but I haven't given it a go myself (you'd end up with a lot of addons). Still, I love to play Terran and don't really care too much what others say, I'll keep playing Terran all the same. P.S. I do find it amusing when players complain about Terran being an A-move army/race when they have the most abilities and micro required on a per unit basis. Zerg is the A move race, almost all their units have no abilities and were designed to A move. The little used infestor had huge micro maybe that's why Zerg so scared to use it .afraid to micro. Anyway I'd say Toss is pretty micro intensive too with Grav beams, FF, blink, HT's abilities etc to compare with siege and un siege stimming Strike cannon cloak and so forth. Add that to non MBS spam & rally but rather have to be looking at exact pylon you want units and click click click click different location puts toss over the top. | ||
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Almin
United States583 Posts
On April 25 2011 23:17 tdt wrote: Zerg is the A move race, almost all their units have no abilities and were designed to A move. The little used infestor had huge micro maybe that's why Zerg so scared to use it .afraid to micro. Anyway I'd say Toss is pretty micro intensive too with Grav beams, FF, blink, HT's abilities etc to compare with siege and un siege stimming Strike cannon cloak and so forth. Add that to non MBS spam & rally but rather have to be looking at exact pylon you want units and click click click click different location puts toss over the top. Grav beams, FF, blink are not micro intensive, HT's are however. The entire Zerg race is micro intensive in terms of microing in battles on curves. Infestors < Tanks Infestors are 150 gas each, mutas are 100 each, infestors are huge and can get snipped easily, don't see the problem really. | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 25 2011 23:17 tdt wrote: Zerg is the A move race, almost all their units have no abilities and were designed to A move. The little used infestor had huge micro maybe that's why Zerg so scared to use it .afraid to micro. Anyway I'd say Toss is pretty micro intensive too with Grav beams, FF, blink, HT's abilities etc to compare with siege and un siege stimming Strike cannon cloak and so forth. Add that to non MBS spam & rally but rather have to be looking at exact pylon you want units and click click click click different location puts toss over the top. Toss is pretty micro intensive... Seriously, protoss is all about refining build order and things like that. Zerg units have no abilities... true but they also have the suckiest range, the lowest hp/unit cost, so their army is the biggest and need a bigger area to maximise their damage: all in all, you do not micro unit by unit, but army positionning, composition, flank, is way more important with zerg than any race. A thing that you should not know since you play protoss and protoss do not care about that, with 6 range units like stalkers, sentries to control the space, and colossi to a move and kill shitload of units with no micro at all. On April 25 2011 21:52 Ipp wrote: Spanishwa went like 5-2 in grand master using the day9 monday funday of building no more than 12 lings, no hydras, no roaches, no mutas (I think those were all the stipulations). It's all about sim city using queens/spine crawlers as walls. They may not have a "burst" but with transfuse their sustained DPS can generally out last early attacks. That given all ins such as marine/scv will most likely demolish it, but lings have trouble with that aswell That's because the build is new. They were just shocked to see a zerg sacrifying his maccro and agressive capacities in order to tech. | ||
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Bluebush
United States218 Posts
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 25 2011 23:24 WhiteDog wrote: Toss is pretty micro intensive... Seriously, protoss is all about refining build order and things like that. Zerg units have no abilities... true but they also have the suckiest range, the lowest hp/unit cost, so their army is the biggest and need a bigger area to maximise their damage: all in all, you do not micro unit by unit, but army positionning, composition, flank, is way more important with zerg than any race. A thing that you should not know since you play protoss and protoss do not care about that, with 6 range units like stalkers, sentries to control the space, and colossi to a move and kill shitload of units with no micro at all. That's because the build is new. They were just shocked to see a zerg sacrifying his maccro and agressive capacities in order to tech. Yup smaller the better for us, bigger area better for you. ( BTW I play both Z&P only played Terran in single player run through) Problem I have with Zerg is lack of early scout where you can't predict anything and you're basically a sitting duck reacting. | ||
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Qumquat
Israel353 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
It's hard to tell due to translation, but it seems like the players comment on balance, but not with whine. It sounds more of a "well this is the way it is" kind of thing and they just accept it. I really love that attitude. | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On April 24 2011 13:57 SilverPotato wrote: Don't forget the ability to move around an automatically formed death ball! Yeah, because having stalkers tanking damage b/c they are surrounding zealots with immortals in the back where they can't shoot is efficient. ?!? | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On April 24 2011 14:00 Smigi wrote: Thanks artosis for the interviews. as far as balance goes, I don't think their is necessarily a 'weakest' race right now. However, I do believe their is a strongest race, which is Protoss. I personally think Protoss's warpgate mechanic is stupid. The ability to make units wherever theres a powerfield is outrageous. Protoss have amazing mobility and their all-in timings are able to be reinforced almost instantly with warpgate. I had the same opinion of warpgate since phase 1 of the beta, and I have the same one now. Once again, I'm not a game designer or on the balance team.. but this is my opinion. Aside from the warpgate mechanic, I don't think theres anything that stands out as a HUGE issue. Although forcefields and collusi are getting a lot of heat lately. Protoss would have no early to mid-game timing attacks at all if not for warpgate due to the inefficiency of their units. P successful early aggression against Terran often leads to only a slight edge because SCVs + marines kill gateway units so well. Early heavy sentry FF use being the only exception here... and heavy sentry is a very specific build that is scoutable. Not like you can warp in sentries at the last second and get any use out of them b/c they need full energy. Early and mid-game Zerg can beat gateway units with any ground unit from zergling to hydra as long as he picks the one he can afford to build and starts building them soon enough. The exception being heavy sentry builds... again easily scoutable and nullified by burrow or overlord upgrades to pick up units. So the only real problem in the Zerg's case is knowing when to build the units and not overdrone. AKA, greedy Zergs aren't doing well against timings or all-ins. Protoss attacks that result in 50% unit loss is a guaranteed game loss if Zerg's econ survived. Flip side is Zerg all-ins are fairly easy to recover against due to the ability to pump drones after a semi-failure, with a high chance of getting back in the game. | ||
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Juanald
United States354 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:59 Blizzard_torments_me wrote: Yeah,what you don't actually realize is how good that Terran needs to be. People don't realize how good the top Terrans actually are. MVP's multitasking is godlike ,and he actually needs it ,compared to Protoss players.Microing your drops while macroing in base ,while sending another drop ,while poking with your main army isn't really spamming W ,click and chronoboost, E.  wow u cant be serius.. and ur saying zealot/stalker isnt hard to micro LOL!? what about forcedfeilds?...give protoss a try and ull find urself pushing ur multitask skillz to the limit. stop wining about balance cmon man ~Juanald User was warned for this post | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On April 26 2011 00:54 Juanald wrote: wow u cant be serius.. and ur saying zealot/stalker isnt hard to micro LOL!? what about forcedfeilds?...give protoss a try and ull find urself pushing ur multitask skillz to the limit. stop wining about balance cmon man ~Juanald MVP is the highest KeSPA ranked player to move to SC2. As far as mechanics goes, hes really a player who's multitasking ability cannot help him in SC2, which unfortunately was what made him a semi decent player at BroodWar. Pretty sure he could do all of his macro/micro with one hand. Although a little exaggerated, what I stated above is exactly the problem MVP is having. He simply can't differentiate himself between slower players with multitasking/macro/micro. Of course MKP seems like an exception but I do believe it has more to do with his starsense and aggression than his micro ability, he also only uses 1 group for buildings and 1 group for units which isn't optimal. Then you look at Nestea who was a coach and 2v2 player, and MC who exploits key timing windows, yes he has good micro but then I think it is his starsense and flexibility that wins him games even if his forcefields are good. | ||
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anthraxalfa
Sweden26 Posts
On April 24 2011 22:47 Vidoc wrote: When is there a Tasteless/Artosis house tour lol? =D Oh god yes, give me please! | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
On April 25 2011 21:52 Ipp wrote: Spanishwa went like 5-2 in grand master using the day9 monday funday of building no more than 12 lings, no hydras, no roaches, no mutas (I think those were all the stipulations). It's all about sim city using queens/spine crawlers as walls. They may not have a "burst" but with transfuse their sustained DPS can generally out last early attacks. That given all ins such as marine/scv will most likely demolish it, but lings have trouble with that aswell Saw it. I haven't hit Spanishiwa on the ladder yet, but when I do, I'm going to have a lot of fun! | ||
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Jimbo77
139 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:45 Piski wrote: Have you actually ever tried to kill stalkers or marines that are controlled by a decent player? With even a decent stutter micro those marines just don't die no matter how many lings you make. Zerglings do not kill decent stalker play, are you serious here? They really should? Try to use roach instead. And again, speedlings speed on creep is just a joke. Neither ST nor Colossi have appropriate attack speed to be able to stop decent amount of zlings on creep - T1 unit. Since you have no unit-select limit it's just -> select all zlings->aMove-> all the rest owns by muta... | ||
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Hwanni
Korea (South)37 Posts
haha I was trolling Greg cause we(Artosis, Tasteless, and I) always miss him in Korea. haha well we will get more interviews for you guys thanks for comments as always. | ||
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TheBrofessor
Canada429 Posts
On April 26 2011 07:29 Hwanni wrote: Thanks for watching follks. haha I was trolling Greg cause we(Artosis, Tasteless, and I) always miss him in Korea. haha well we will get more interviews for you guys thanks for comments as always. Thanks for translating Hwanni! | ||
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doihy
668 Posts
On April 26 2011 07:29 Hwanni wrote: Thanks for watching follks. haha I was trolling Greg cause we(Artosis, Tasteless, and I) always miss him in Korea. haha well we will get more interviews for you guys thanks for comments as always. Please do Slayers next! | ||
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ShivaN
United States933 Posts
Oh, please do! Who wouldn't love to see an Artosis interview with none other than Boxer? Makes me drool thinking about it..  | ||
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Raid
United States398 Posts
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ItsMeDomLee
Canada2732 Posts
Save the best for last IMO. Do Fou - TSL - oGs and THEN SlayerS | ||
bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
As mentioned above - cannot wait for SlayerS! | ||
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MUFFINS1
United States533 Posts
Interviews of BOXER, Alicia, MMA, and Ryung would be awsome | ||
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I)etox
1240 Posts
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MUFFINS1
United States533 Posts
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GhettoSheep
United States150 Posts
On April 25 2011 08:05 Jimbo77 wrote: Actually it's interesting, can someone remember how it was in Broodwar? Did map size affect the game balance of any of three races or it was absolutely even for all of three independently of map size? If the last, well, it's one more evidence that BW is balanced game, contrary SC2 which is not. ...Maps were used as balance patches in BW There were no patches, so new maps were made to even out the balance of the game. So yes I would say map design is incredibly important. | ||
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Mitsuwa
United States793 Posts
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Perchloric
Brazil163 Posts
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hi im new
Germany150 Posts
while i really like tvt and it's one of my favorite matchups it's starting to get old. who really enjoys watching at least 3 tvt finals every day. where are the zergs and protosses? where? i see only terrans. fucking boring. how can anyone honestly believe that terran is somehow the weakest race with shit like that going on every day. EVERY weekly cup EVERY day is almost always 4 terrans in semi finals and we see tvt tvt tvt tvt tvt I AM FUCKING SICK OF THIS SHIT honestly | ||
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Zabimaru
United Kingdom132 Posts
i am fucking sick of every tournament being only terrans. it's always tvt semifinals. ALWAYS. No it's not, and you know it. Anyway, thanks for all the great work Artosis. Much love. <3 | ||
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hi im new
Germany150 Posts
if it wasn't then i wouldn't be pissed off and frustrated by all the tvt when i just want to sit down and watch some sc2 games. tvt is only exciting for so long. watching 50 tvt every day is just stupid. | ||
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Rashid
191 Posts
On April 26 2011 00:54 Juanald wrote: wow u cant be serius.. and ur saying zealot/stalker isnt hard to micro LOL!? what about forcedfeilds?...give protoss a try and ull find urself pushing ur multitask skillz to the limit. stop wining about balance cmon man ~Juanald Zealot stalker doesnt require any micro. -Rashid | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On April 26 2011 00:54 Juanald wrote: wow u cant be serius.. and ur saying zealot/stalker isnt hard to micro LOL!? what about forcedfeilds?...give protoss a try and ull find urself pushing ur multitask skillz to the limit. stop wining about balance cmon man ~Juanald Coming from playing protoss in bw and protoss from beta to january for sc2, I can tell you terran (my race now) is much much more mechanically demanding. The multitasking skills isn't even close. And if you want to get into more history, I can tell you terran was by far the most mechanically demanding race in sc1. | ||
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Rashid
191 Posts
The 'OMG TERRAN IS OP ZERG IS UP' bandwagon has gone waaay to long and needs to fcuking stop. It's bad enough that Terran players in general are struggling against Z and P on the ladder, it's even worse that all their effort gets passed off as 'OMG TERRAN IMBA LOL' mentality cultivated by overly self-entitled Zs and Ps. It's freaking annoying. | ||
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Turgid
United States1623 Posts
On April 29 2011 06:04 Rashid wrote: Btw, i'm terribly glad that at least ONE pro player admits that Terran is the weakest. I mean, Terran got nerfed in virtually every single patch since retail. What the hell do you guys expect? The 'OMG TERRAN IS OP ZERG IS UP' bandwagon has gone waaay to long and needs to fcuking stop. It's bad enough that Terran players in general are struggling against Z and P on the ladder, it's even worse that all their effort gets passed off as 'OMG TERRAN IMBA LOL' mentality cultivated by overly self-entitled Zs and Ps. It's freaking annoying. I dunno dude, Terrans seem to do pretty well for themselves on the ladder. No idea where this attitude is coming from. | ||
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
On April 29 2011 06:04 Rashid wrote: Btw, i'm terribly glad that at least ONE pro player admits that Terran is the weakest. I mean, Terran got nerfed in virtually every single patch since retail. What the hell do you guys expect? The 'OMG TERRAN IS OP ZERG IS UP' bandwagon has gone waaay to long and needs to fcuking stop. It's bad enough that Terran players in general are struggling against Z and P on the ladder, it's even worse that all their effort gets passed off as 'OMG TERRAN IMBA LOL' mentality cultivated by overly self-entitled Zs and Ps. It's freaking annoying. The difference is that MVP is saying this while polishing his trophies and other terrans are doing fine. It's MVP that is slipping, not his race. The last few GSLs his play was not as good as it was. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On April 29 2011 06:04 Rashid wrote: Btw, i'm terribly glad that at least ONE pro player admits that Terran is the weakest. I mean, Terran got nerfed in virtually every single patch since retail. What the hell do you guys expect? The 'OMG TERRAN IS OP ZERG IS UP' bandwagon has gone waaay to long and needs to fcuking stop. It's bad enough that Terran players in general are struggling against Z and P on the ladder, it's even worse that all their effort gets passed off as 'OMG TERRAN IMBA LOL' mentality cultivated by overly self-entitled Zs and Ps. It's freaking annoying. yes it's very impressive for someone to come out and say that the race they play is the weakest race. what bravery! | ||
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firehand101
Australia3152 Posts
and thanks for these vids artosis, ur too good! (PS: when u gonna do another idra interview? ) | ||
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dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
On April 29 2011 06:04 Rashid wrote: Btw, i'm terribly glad that at least ONE pro player admits that Terran is the weakest. I mean, Terran got nerfed in virtually every single patch since retail. What the hell do you guys expect? The 'OMG TERRAN IS OP ZERG IS UP' bandwagon has gone waaay to long and needs to fcuking stop. It's bad enough that Terran players in general are struggling against Z and P on the ladder, it's even worse that all their effort gets passed off as 'OMG TERRAN IMBA LOL' mentality cultivated by overly self-entitled Zs and Ps. It's freaking annoying. Terran is not the weakest imo, it's all quite even actually. But to give a counter-example for your statement ("Terran is the weakest race"): according to sc2ranks these are the stats for Europe & Korea Grandmaster:
I interpret this as 'Terran dominates Korea', 'Races are quite equal in Europe, Protoss slightly in the lead'. Notice how Terran is easily the most played race in both regions. In contrast, the NA numbers:
Terran is played a lot less in NA for some reason; but average points are highest, although Zerg is only very slightly behind. Protoss in last place by a fair margin. Now you will quickly say 'only noobs play Protoss in NA', but if Terran was so weak I suppose even the noob Protosses should be able to defeat Terran And remember 'noob' is very relative, considering we are talking about the Grandmaster league here.In conclusion it is fairly safe to say Terran is in fact not the weakest race. If anything can be concluded from this data (which I assume shifts quite a lot, and fast), it is that the game right now is pretty well balanced ^_^ | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
where pros aren't putting their best play into the game and where the game tries to make you lose. | ||
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orphn
2 Posts
On April 29 2011 06:20 dani` wrote: Terran is not the weakest imo, it's all quite even actually. But to give a counter-example for your statement ("Terran is the weakest race"): according to sc2ranks these are the stats for Europe & Korea Grandmaster:
I interpret this as 'Terran dominates Korea', 'Races are quite equal in Europe, Protoss slightly in the lead'. Notice how Terran is easily the most played race in both regions. In contrast, the NA numbers:
Terran is played a lot less in NA for some reason; but average points are highest, although Zerg is only very slightly behind. Protoss in last place by a fair margin. Now you will quickly say 'only noobs play Protoss in NA', but if Terran was so weak I suppose even the noob Protosses should be able to defeat Terran And remember 'noob' is very relative, considering we are talking about the Grandmaster league here.In conclusion it is fairly safe to say Terran is in fact not the weakest race. If anything can be concluded from this data (which I assume shifts quite a lot, and fast), it is that the game right now is pretty well balanced ^_^ as it's already been said before, MVP is talking about the GSL maps. obviously, stats from ladder are not relevant to balance on GSL maps | ||
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dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
On April 29 2011 06:23 orphn wrote: as it's already been said before, MVP is talking about the GSL maps. obviously, stats from ladder are not relevant to balance on GSL maps I know, but I was responding to someone who wanted to extrapolate MVP's quote to reason about the current game balance and he said Terran was in fact the weakest race in the game. | ||
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R3N
740 Posts
And statistically Terran aren't doing any worse than other races in those large maps. Well, compared to their overpowered, near gamebreaking paste in the smallish, cheesy blizzard maps, Terran are doing TERRIBLY rofl. I guess all zergs and protoss for that matter should've just switch races then? Fucking silly. GTFO slumping/underperforming terran crybaby | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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Rashid
191 Posts
On April 29 2011 06:20 dani` wrote: Terran is not the weakest imo, it's all quite even actually. But to give a counter-example for your statement ("Terran is the weakest race"): according to sc2ranks these are the stats for Europe & Korea Grandmaster:
I interpret this as 'Terran dominates Korea', 'Races are quite equal in Europe, Protoss slightly in the lead'. Notice how Terran is easily the most played race in both regions. In contrast, the NA numbers:
Terran is played a lot less in NA for some reason; but average points are highest, although Zerg is only very slightly behind. Protoss in last place by a fair margin. Now you will quickly say 'only noobs play Protoss in NA', but if Terran was so weak I suppose even the noob Protosses should be able to defeat Terran And remember 'noob' is very relative, considering we are talking about the Grandmaster league here.In conclusion it is fairly safe to say Terran is in fact not the weakest race. If anything can be concluded from this data (which I assume shifts quite a lot, and fast), it is that the game right now is pretty well balanced ^_^ So what? back just before one of the patches (i think it's the one where reapers were nerfed, i'm not quite sure) Blizz released their own stats basically saying Zerg owns Terrans globally. But then everybody came up with a bunch of excuses about how the statistics don't count, like how better zerg players were matched up with lesser terran players due the the matching system striving for 50/50 winlose ratio. How is it any different from now? | ||
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On April 29 2011 06:22 Let it Raine wrote: it's ladder. where pros aren't putting their best play into the game and where the game tries to make you lose. how about GSL where two protoss winners (MCx2), 2 zerg winners (Nestea, fruitdealer), and 2 terrans (MVP twice, but one being WC) each have about same amount of trophies. | ||
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R3N
740 Posts
On April 29 2011 06:40 illsick wrote: how about GSL where two protoss winners (MCx2), 2 zerg winners (Nestea, fruitdealer), and 2 terrans (MVP twice, but one being WC) each have about same amount of trophies. useless You should take sample of which race advances to the Ro16, Ro8 etc. in every season to get a much better understanding of the statistical balance between the races. But then such a fair undertaking disfavors the terran/protoss (because they are the races who're dominating in such statistics) so no one will never do that. | ||
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mutantmagnet
United States3789 Posts
I think Hwanni had some trouble translating Losira's response to Artosis' balance question. He stumbled with the translation a bit and ultimately didn't get across what Losira was trying to say. As a Korean speaker, I didn't hear Losira say anything about the need to constantly "counterattack," as Hwanni claimed. Losira actually said that the reason he thinks Zerg is the weakest race at the moment is because Terran and Protoss have more of an ability to take the initiative with their build orders in the early game. As a result, Zerg must constantly "match" what Protoss and Terran are doing in the early game just to survive. He said that IF a Zerg succeeds in "matching" the Terran or Protoss early on, THEN two opponents will battle it out and win or lose based on skill later in the game. Essentially, the skill of the Zerg player wouldn't even be showcased unless he survived later into the game without taking too much damage from the various tactics Terran and Protoss could use in the early game. So two opponents of equal skill (one being Zerg) would have a completely fair fight only after the Zerg were to make it past a certain point relatively unscathed, having responded correctly to all the different pressures. Losira mentioned that if a Zerg gets this process of "matching" even slightly wrong, he simply gets rolled early on, ending the game rather abruptly. When Zerg wins, it's because this process was done perfectly, and this is what is the hard part about Zerg. I assume by "matching," Losira means drone production vs unit production vs correct counter to potentially deadly harass/all-ins/early timing pushes. I'm not saying this is what I personally think, but I'm pretty sure this is what Losira was trying to express in Korean, which got lost in translation via Hwanni. I think Hwanni mistranslated "matching" to "counterattacking" and said a bunch of things that Losira didn't even mention lol. PS Also, the IM coach mentioned nothing about Greg "Idra" Fields being a bad fit for IM. Hwanni added that in by himself. Of course.... this doesn't necessarily mean that the coach doesn't agree with Hwanni. But whatever. Just trying to clear some things up. Post made by redemption Quoting this again because there is too much balance discussion in this thread when there is so much more that can be taken away from these videos. | ||
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DarkRise
1644 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 29 2011 06:06 Turgid wrote: I dunno dude, Terrans seem to do pretty well for themselves on the ladder. No idea where this attitude is coming from. Dude ... the LADDER probably wasnt why MVP made that comment, but rather his experiences on the larger GSL maps. It is really hard for a Terran to move out on these maps, because bio armies can be surrounded relatively easily and mech is immobile to begin with. This makes Terran harder to play on these maps compared to the smaller ladder maps. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On April 29 2011 16:31 Rabiator wrote: Dude ... the LADDER probably wasnt why MVP made that comment, but rather his experiences on the larger GSL maps. It is really hard for a Terran to move out on these maps, because bio armies can be surrounded relatively easily and mech is immobile to begin with. This makes Terran harder to play on these maps compared to the smaller ladder maps. GSL world championship 50% terrans in semifinal. TvT final. GSL Jan 75% terran in semifinal. TvT final. 7 out of 16 are Terran in GSL may. MVP won the world championship on large GSL maps, so claiming the race is weak is just not true. Also MC (arguably the best player in the world) lost to Thorzain on large maps. | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
On April 29 2011 16:45 karpo wrote: GSL world championship 50% terrans in semifinal. TvT final. GSL Jan 75% terran in semifinal. TvT final. 7 out of 16 are Terran in GSL may. MVP won the world championship on large GSL maps, so claiming the race is weak is just not true. Also MC (arguably the best player in the world) lost to Thorzain on large maps. Oh man awesome statistics. Hey let me grab some random statistics too! In all GSL Code S finals including the first 3 seasons not labeled Code S, the winners were by race in order: Zerg Zerg Protoss Terran Protoss Clearly by this unbiased analysis we can see that Terran is now underpowered! Come on man. | ||
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ItsMeDomLee
Canada2732 Posts
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PPTouch
99 Posts
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On September 22 2011 09:17 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Bump. Funny how the big maps have not really been hindering the Terrans. Considering the current meta game and how there are more terrans than the other races times 2. I am not sure bumping this is going to attract any good attention. Seems like a subtle flamebait. | ||
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killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
But when I do, I don't add anything to the discussion. | ||
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lim1017
Canada1278 Posts
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On September 22 2011 09:21 lim1017 wrote: well this can serve as a good example of how just cause your a top progamer doesnt mean your always right. No but everyone agreed with him when he made the 1/1/1 comment. Hmmmm, just something to think about . | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
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Stanlot
United States5742 Posts
And then I was like, "Oh. =_____=;;" | ||
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rdj107
United States336 Posts
On September 22 2011 09:21 lim1017 wrote: well this can serve as a good example of how just cause your a top progamer doesnt mean your always right. Unless I remember wrong...from several months ago...he just said that terrans benefit the least from overly large maps. Which I guess is accurate. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
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Sarang
Australia2363 Posts
On September 22 2011 09:17 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Bump. Funny how the big maps have not really been hindering the Terrans. Why would you bump this? So people have yet another place to whine about terrans? I mean it's not like people are already doing that absolutely everywhere, or anything like that. -_- | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 22 2011 09:26 Sarang wrote: Why would you bump this? So people have yet another place to whine about terrans? I mean it's not like people are already doing that absolutely everywhere, or anything like that. -_- Yes, this was a dumb idea. Playing Protoss sucks right now, but being Terran these days is like being hated for being born into a rich family. | ||
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On September 22 2011 09:21 killa_robot wrote: I don't always necro. But when I do, I don't add anything to the discussion. ^ The most interesting mortician in the world. I do find this ironic--the fear that Terrans had of the "big maps." I also remember a point, about a month after this, when commentators starting noting how uber-powerful T drops were on maps like Crevasse. Terran mobility shines on the bigger maps. | ||
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Knutzi
Norway664 Posts
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Vansetsu
United States1454 Posts
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CTStalker
Canada9720 Posts
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