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This thing is a beauty to watch. I'll definitely be following this.
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Cool watch!! Amazing to see  No one will ever be able to play anything even close to that...
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On April 15 2011 05:51 RoachyRoach wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 05:35 artanis2 wrote:On April 15 2011 05:10 RoachyRoach wrote:On April 15 2011 03:10 artanis2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2011 23:52 Kalafina wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 22:18 mechavoc wrote:
You made an account to post this?
kind of sad.
Yes we are sorry you didn't think of this first.
OP had both the ability (which you say many people have), the Idea, and the follow through to acomplish this cool project. Having those 3 things is impressive. You on the other hand have only have contributed critizism.
So take this as a challenge go out and make some really cool AI ! show us what you can do and we will give you all the praise you deserve!
It makes me laugh at what low standards this community has. It truely shows the impassable gap between the ignorant and the elite. "I didn't think of this first"?? Why would I limit myself to something this simple? The SC2 Hacking scene has been pushing the boundaries of bots and ai's since the beginning of the beta. Heard of the Green Tea ai? "OP had the ability"?? Give a code monkey a book on implementing a state machine and/or fuzzy logic and it can code this within a day. ANYONE can do it. "Make a cool AI"?? You underestimate me. The caliber of the projects I work on are many times greater than this. If we release these publicly, it'll be exploited by the masses. Proof? Become one of the elites and you maybe able to join our cabal, a true gathering of minds. I'll leave you with these 2 videos. A taste of our progress from 3 months ago. I have said what I felt needed to be said, and now I shall say no more. Video 1Video 2 All you have proven is that you have less skill than the OP. Thanks for the verification. I do not mean to burst your bubble. But what this guy has done is way more advanced than the one posted in the OP. Because this is a program that reads the screen, then makes actions based on scenarios that it interprets by itself. The OPs bot is one that uses the AI scripting, as in it works within the bubble of the application. Therefore everything that the bot needs to know is redily available to it. This bot actually reads picture data off of a screen and makes mouse movements and keystrokes. In otherwords. This bot could be used in ladder, where the OPs could not. Although the OPs bot is pulling off much more advanced micro, this guys bot is doing much more advanced calculations. I do hate the elitest attitude though. edit: Everything I just said was already said, my bad. I don't care how sophisticated his application is. He demonstrated a poor AI. It is a worse solution than OP's because it performed worse at its task. It doesn't matter how "advanced" it is if it sucks. Reading the screen is an obstacle that is unnecessary and unrelated to the problem of creating a game playing AI. I don't congratulate someone that hammered a nail into some wood using a rube goldberg machine. I facepalm and say "why the hell are you doing this the hard way"? edit: So I reread Kalafina's first post and it now seems like a clear case of not feeling recognized at his job. He see's OP's post and immediately thinks "wtf I do shit more complex then this all day long and nobody cares, bawww!" So, I kinda feel sorry for him now. That's assuming that anything he posted is true, I guess. My point was that the OPs bot doesnt demonstrate what a human could ever hope to do. It demonstrates how cool it looks when a game plays against itself. The other guys bot simulates taking sensory info and making decisions. Which shows what is possible for a human to do. edit: retracted insult... the internet is pissing me off today.
I still disagree with you. A screen reading AI will still have infinite potential to be better than any human because it can click the mouse in the exact location and press keys in the correct order instantaneously. Humans will have a fixed upper limit for how fast their fingers work, how fast they can perform an action after interpreting what they see. Any AI can include a forced limit, it doesn't have to be reading the screen to do it.
There are two problems being solved: Interpret input and determine action. Interpret input can be solved by screen reading or by hooking into the game itself. It is my opinion that screen reading is utterly fucking useless because an objectively better set of input is available to you.
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On April 15 2011 06:00 artanis2 wrote:
There are two problems being solved: Interpret input and determine action. Interpret input can be solved by screen reading or by hooking into the game itself. It is my opinion that screen reading is utterly fucking useless because an objectively better set of input is available to you. Not useless, it's harder for blizzard to detect it 
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On April 15 2011 05:14 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:13 kagemucha wrote:
You guys are a bit too harsh on Kalafina cause he actually knows what he's talking about. He's right in that Automaton 2000 is purely a hard coded script. It's all done in Galaxy editor and ONLY works in this finite context. If you put things in another map/scenario it could possibly break the script entirely.
Kalafina on the other hand has a LIVE implementation of bots,, The worker split video is garbage but the marine vs zealot video is magnificent. You have to understand that all Kalafina's bot has to work with is exactly what is seen on the screen and has to execute commands through the actual UI just like a "human". You can't do simultaneous actions and there are delays built in. I've never used Galaxy editor or know what Kalafina is doing, so I may be totally off, but an example could be spam warping 100 zealots all at once. In Galaxy, this should be able to be done simultaneously, all at once. Kalafina on the other hand needs to act like a human. He needs to actually move the mouse to the location, press W, press Z, Mouseclick.
Galaxy
warp(zealot, x_pos, y_pos)
vs.
UI Bot
mousePos(x_pos, y_pos)
delay Z
keyClick(w)
delay Z
keyClick(z)
delay Z
mousClick
delay Z
keyClick()
Now of course the delay might not even be noticeable in many cases, but it will still exists nonetheless.
I'm not trying to download Automaton 2000 in anyway. I think it's done an excellent job thus far and the videos are really entertaining. But Kalafina also has something with just as much (if not more) effects to the community. Give him some slack Dude...you realize that Starcraft AIs have been in the works for years now right? There have been regular BW AI competitions that work with actual bots not the map editor and every single one of those BW AI/bots are much more impressive than the shit Kalafina posted. Not to mention those bots worked with a shittier engine as opposed to the SC2 engine. In all honesty, we're hard on Kalafina 'cause he made an account to come into a thread and talk shit about the OP when the OP himself said that his work isn't AI and is simply map editor. Add on to the fact that his micro bot is complete garbage (how the hell did one of the marines die??? A human can micro better than that) all culminates in him getting same treatment he gave the OP/TL. EDIT: I'm not saying the stuff Kalafina did isn't impressive or hard to do. It definitely is. But it's not nearly as impressive as you think it is and it definitely isn't so impressive as to warrant his douchebaggery. Go look up some BW AIs (not just the wraith micro video, but actual AIs that can play a game from beginning to end).
I agree with you in that he's presenting himself as a dick and the criticism for that is perfectly understandable. I just don't think the people saying his marine micro video is terrible compared to Automaton's is correct.
I am aware of the BWAPI stuff that went on during BW days. It was definitely amazing how good those AIs were and I don't think any SC2 AI right now can even come close to them (not even Green Tea AI. Although I haven't checked out Green Tea since the beta so who knows). I'm sure with more time, SC2 AI will catch up and surpass BW simply because theres so much more power in Galaxy Editor.
But you're wrong in comparing BW bots to SC2 UI Bots (Kalafina's). The bots in BW that used the BWAPI (which most did) are much more similar to the Galaxy Editor scripts than SC2 UI bots. You can still do simultaneous commands with no delay amongs other days. You aren't necessary limited to what you see on the screen. In fact, there is no "screen" in BW bots, it's all commands.
In the end though, like many have said already, these are just simply two different types of AI that is being developed in Starcraft 2 right now. Neither is "better" than the other, they're just different.
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On April 15 2011 06:04 kagemucha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 05:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2011 03:13 kagemucha wrote:
You guys are a bit too harsh on Kalafina cause he actually knows what he's talking about. He's right in that Automaton 2000 is purely a hard coded script. It's all done in Galaxy editor and ONLY works in this finite context. If you put things in another map/scenario it could possibly break the script entirely.
Kalafina on the other hand has a LIVE implementation of bots,, The worker split video is garbage but the marine vs zealot video is magnificent. You have to understand that all Kalafina's bot has to work with is exactly what is seen on the screen and has to execute commands through the actual UI just like a "human". You can't do simultaneous actions and there are delays built in. I've never used Galaxy editor or know what Kalafina is doing, so I may be totally off, but an example could be spam warping 100 zealots all at once. In Galaxy, this should be able to be done simultaneously, all at once. Kalafina on the other hand needs to act like a human. He needs to actually move the mouse to the location, press W, press Z, Mouseclick.
Galaxy
warp(zealot, x_pos, y_pos)
vs.
UI Bot
mousePos(x_pos, y_pos)
delay Z
keyClick(w)
delay Z
keyClick(z)
delay Z
mousClick
delay Z
keyClick()
Now of course the delay might not even be noticeable in many cases, but it will still exists nonetheless.
I'm not trying to download Automaton 2000 in anyway. I think it's done an excellent job thus far and the videos are really entertaining. But Kalafina also has something with just as much (if not more) effects to the community. Give him some slack Dude...you realize that Starcraft AIs have been in the works for years now right? There have been regular BW AI competitions that work with actual bots not the map editor and every single one of those BW AI/bots are much more impressive than the shit Kalafina posted. Not to mention those bots worked with a shittier engine as opposed to the SC2 engine. In all honesty, we're hard on Kalafina 'cause he made an account to come into a thread and talk shit about the OP when the OP himself said that his work isn't AI and is simply map editor. Add on to the fact that his micro bot is complete garbage (how the hell did one of the marines die??? A human can micro better than that) all culminates in him getting same treatment he gave the OP/TL. EDIT: I'm not saying the stuff Kalafina did isn't impressive or hard to do. It definitely is. But it's not nearly as impressive as you think it is and it definitely isn't so impressive as to warrant his douchebaggery. Go look up some BW AIs (not just the wraith micro video, but actual AIs that can play a game from beginning to end). I agree with you in that he's presenting himself as a dick and the criticism for that is perfectly understandable. I just don't think the people saying his marine micro video is terrible compared to Automaton's is correct. I am aware of the BWAPI stuff that went on during BW days. It was definitely amazing how good those AIs were and I don't think any SC2 AI right now can even come close to them (not even Green Tea AI. Although I haven't checked out Green Tea since the beta so who knows). I'm sure with more time, SC2 AI will catch up and surpass BW simply because theres so much more power in Galaxy Editor. But you're wrong in comparing BW bots to SC2 UI Bots (Kalafina's). The bots in BW that used the BWAPI (which most did) are much more similar to the Galaxy Editor scripts than SC2 UI bots. You can still do simultaneous commands with no delay amongs other days. You aren't necessary limited to what you see on the screen. In fact, there is no "screen" in BW bots, it's all commands. In the end though, like many have said already, these are just simply two different types of AI that is being developed in Starcraft 2 right now. Neither is "better" than the other, they're just different.
Ah, I see waht your trying to say. Yea kalafina bot is indeed different but honesty if you're going to make an ai why not take the most effeicient and effective route? Using screen reading as input seems kind of pointless when scripting is more powerful and can be just as, if not more complex. Only advantage to screen reading is that it's harder for blizzard to detect but that's just gaming
we should stop derailing the thread tho seeing how we agree on the issue that kalafina is a dick lol
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On April 15 2011 05:51 RoachyRoach wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 05:35 artanis2 wrote:On April 15 2011 05:10 RoachyRoach wrote:On April 15 2011 03:10 artanis2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2011 23:52 Kalafina wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 22:18 mechavoc wrote:
You made an account to post this?
kind of sad.
Yes we are sorry you didn't think of this first.
OP had both the ability (which you say many people have), the Idea, and the follow through to acomplish this cool project. Having those 3 things is impressive. You on the other hand have only have contributed critizism.
So take this as a challenge go out and make some really cool AI ! show us what you can do and we will give you all the praise you deserve!
It makes me laugh at what low standards this community has. It truely shows the impassable gap between the ignorant and the elite. "I didn't think of this first"?? Why would I limit myself to something this simple? The SC2 Hacking scene has been pushing the boundaries of bots and ai's since the beginning of the beta. Heard of the Green Tea ai? "OP had the ability"?? Give a code monkey a book on implementing a state machine and/or fuzzy logic and it can code this within a day. ANYONE can do it. "Make a cool AI"?? You underestimate me. The caliber of the projects I work on are many times greater than this. If we release these publicly, it'll be exploited by the masses. Proof? Become one of the elites and you maybe able to join our cabal, a true gathering of minds. I'll leave you with these 2 videos. A taste of our progress from 3 months ago. I have said what I felt needed to be said, and now I shall say no more. Video 1Video 2 All you have proven is that you have less skill than the OP. Thanks for the verification. I do not mean to burst your bubble. But what this guy has done is way more advanced than the one posted in the OP. Because this is a program that reads the screen, then makes actions based on scenarios that it interprets by itself. The OPs bot is one that uses the AI scripting, as in it works within the bubble of the application. Therefore everything that the bot needs to know is redily available to it. This bot actually reads picture data off of a screen and makes mouse movements and keystrokes. In otherwords. This bot could be used in ladder, where the OPs could not. Although the OPs bot is pulling off much more advanced micro, this guys bot is doing much more advanced calculations. I do hate the elitest attitude though. edit: Everything I just said was already said, my bad. I don't care how sophisticated his application is. He demonstrated a poor AI. It is a worse solution than OP's because it performed worse at its task. It doesn't matter how "advanced" it is if it sucks. Reading the screen is an obstacle that is unnecessary and unrelated to the problem of creating a game playing AI. I don't congratulate someone that hammered a nail into some wood using a rube goldberg machine. I facepalm and say "why the hell are you doing this the hard way"? edit: So I reread Kalafina's first post and it now seems like a clear case of not feeling recognized at his job. He see's OP's post and immediately thinks "wtf I do shit more complex then this all day long and nobody cares, bawww!" So, I kinda feel sorry for him now. That's assuming that anything he posted is true, I guess. My point was that the OPs bot doesnt demonstrate what a human could ever hope to do. It demonstrates how cool it looks when a game plays against itself. The other guys bot simulates taking sensory info and making decisions. Which shows what is possible for a human to do. edit: retracted insult... the internet is pissing me off today.
Here's the thing though, the OP didn't walk in here and say "Hey guys look at this AI that demonstrates what a human can do and look how cool it is, and how hard it was to do, and look at how amazing a programmer I am, praise me!" the OP came and said "Hey guys look at this map I made using the editor that shows some really cool looking micro and notice how I'm not claiming it's anything it's not or that it can do anything it can't I'm just showing you something cool." And you know what? he did what he was aiming to do really damn well, and it looks sick, Kalafina on the other hand came in and said "Hey! I'm doing harder work in my real job than this guy is to make a cool looking thing on a video game, and I attempted something that's harder than what he did even though he never said his was hard just that it looked cool, PRAISE ME!" (I say attempted because he was attempting to make a good marine micro program when it actually would have been mediocre for a human.)
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On April 15 2011 06:03 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 06:00 artanis2 wrote:
There are two problems being solved: Interpret input and determine action. Interpret input can be solved by screen reading or by hooking into the game itself. It is my opinion that screen reading is utterly fucking useless because an objectively better set of input is available to you. Not useless, it's harder for blizzard to detect it
That's not true though. Blizz can't detect when another application reads SC2's memory.
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50 stalker vs 20 stalker with blink
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Love these videos, bravo, u guys could really make a ton of viewers doing this with all sorts of diff scenarios or even looking at pro games when better micro couldve won someone the game but they failed to be gosu like automoton2K!
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On April 15 2011 06:53 Loton wrote:50 stalker vs 20 stalker with blink
50 would win hands down.
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absolutely love these vids!
please make more :O
I think other guys have made enough suggestions, although i DO love blink stalkers...
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On April 15 2011 05:00 TheNikeYork wrote:
Wow that tank dropping vs that sunken was amazing.
At least it proved hits should always at least land once where they were intended to land.
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I have an idea for you guys, how about a script that would spread Mutalisks against lots and lots of Thors that would dodge the splash perfectly? I assume it's doable and hopefully will look as good, good luck guys.
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51 zerglings vs 50 banelings ?
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ETA on part 2?
How about a MMM + viking ball vs protoss deathball (HTs/Cols)? Col splash spread, HT storm dodge, all in the while kiting units/stimming etc.
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On April 15 2011 11:20 newbie813 wrote:51 zerglings vs 50 banelings ?
Even I, a goldie, can win with 51 zerglings...
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i just had to laugh how ridiculous this was. If anyone can acheive micro to this level, i will call him the true marine king
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Something involving mass ghost snipe would be awesome.
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My god that was impressive. I would love to see a tutorial on that if you guys are willing to share your secrets :D
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EPT
