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On March 23 2011 00:40 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:39 Dental Floss wrote:On March 23 2011 00:35 Treehead wrote:On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC. How can you possibly say that a fast 3-bases could be too strong for Zerg when there are already builds that destroy a Zerg thats being too greedy? Maybe you'd have a point if there weren't 2-rax, 3-rax, 4-gate, 3-gate, 7 pool, etc builds. This would just make is possible for zerg to respond to a T or P FE build by taking an additional base instead of being forced into taking a risky 3rd or doing a 2-base timing. Um, good luck 3gating, 7pooling, 3/2raxing on Tal'Darim... 4gate I could see, but all you have to do is deny the pylon and it is game over Show nested quote +Shakuras shows that on good maps this is simply not the case (don't worry, I didn't misunderstood you as somebody making a point in favour of more rocks).
Shakuras demonstrated perfectly how a map with an easy to take 2nd and a semi-decently to take 3rd doesn't favour zerg at all since the other races profit immensely from an easy to take and defend third as well. In fact, I as a toss player LOVE maps that give me a "free" third (like shattered temple cross position) vs zerg. He can have the whole map, as long as I have my third (and the gold as fourth) I'm 100% happy. What "free" third do you get on the new ST?
The free third he is referring to is the natural of the other vertical position. There are no rocks there blocking anything. Although it does have its own choke.
Honestly, it's hard to see how aggression will work on the larger maps because they'll be much more greedy builds in general. So 3gating, 2/3 raxing would still work, assuming that the opponent will doing something more greedy than what people are doing now.
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On March 23 2011 00:42 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:40 Dommk wrote:On March 23 2011 00:39 Dental Floss wrote:On March 23 2011 00:35 Treehead wrote:On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC. How can you possibly say that a fast 3-bases could be too strong for Zerg when there are already builds that destroy a Zerg thats being too greedy? Maybe you'd have a point if there weren't 2-rax, 3-rax, 4-gate, 3-gate, 7 pool, etc builds. This would just make is possible for zerg to respond to a T or P FE build by taking an additional base instead of being forced into taking a risky 3rd or doing a 2-base timing. Um, good luck 3gating, 7pooling, 3/2raxing on Tal'Darim... 4gate I could see, but all you have to do is deny the pylon and it is game over To be honest, I think 6 pools could be really strong on Tal'Darim in ZvP since many toss players might try a 15 Nex. And on this map it's literally impossible to get an early scouting of if you scout in the wrong direction.
On Shakuras, 6pool was kind of 50/50 against 15 Nexus as long as you got your forge right after, it will be much harder to do on Tal'Darim since Zerg has no idea where you are to begin with, so they will be taking a huge gamble
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6pool on taldarim? Huh? How would you know where to send the lings? That's even crazier than Fruitdealer 6pooling on Kulas back in september.
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I have re-uploaded the images,hopefully some1 saves the images cos i am not gonna re-load for the next time....
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On March 23 2011 00:35 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC.
Well the fast 3rd can only come as a response to a fast expand by your oponent. Any fast 3rd vs 1 base will absolutely kill you with practicly zero chance of being able to defend and I dont see a 3 base zerg beingoverpowered against a 2-base toss or terran. I think the Koreans figured it out pretty well by making it 2 and a half base(1 gas, 6 minerals bases) vs 2 base to be the balanced thing but it doesnt seem that Blizzard like that. Forcing 2 base vs 2 base is apparently better. Or something.
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On March 23 2011 00:52 Vladimir wrote:
6pool on taldarim? Huh? How would you know where to send the lings? That's even crazier than Fruitdealer 6pooling on Kulas back in september.
I was thinking about this exact game to be honest. Wouldn't it be possible to use a similar scouting pattern? Is taldarim too huge to do that? Serious question, I thought it was possible to scout 2 locations before you had to decide which "direction" the lings had to take.
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Why do Blizzard need to put rocks on EVERY single map?
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On March 23 2011 00:58 Cain0 wrote:
Why do Blizzard need to put rocks on EVERY single map?
They like trolling us sometimes I think.
This is blizzard right now after changing tal darim -> 
browder is like: "rocks added, job well done "
shakuras changes don't look too bad imo...i mean it's a big step (for blizzard) to add tal darim, a non blizz map, to the map pool...but this is sorta like your parents buying you that mega awesome toy you wanted for christmas, and then you get it and they tell you it takes like 4 triple A batteries, and they only got you double A's.
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Destructible rocks are Blizzard's manner pylon.
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I read pages of simple whining without actually playing. Yes TDA LE does look like a slightly worse map, but it doesn't make Tal'Darim unplayable. They made Shakuras more interesting, and Backwater Gulch is less of a 4-gate fest. What's the HUGE PROBLEM?
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Tal Darim Altar and Shakuras OMG! Just ban Gulch, Peaks and Pits from map pool and then i got only good maps in my pool yes! Yayayayaya Tal Darim and Shakuras FTW!
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On March 23 2011 01:05 hmsrenown wrote:
I read pages of simple whining without actually playing. Yes TDA LE does look like a slightly worse map, but it doesn't make Tal'Darim unplayable. They made Shakuras more interesting, and Backwater Gulch is less of a 4-gate fest. What's the HUGE PROBLEM?
The problem is that Blizz are doing things literally NOBODY wants and would be EASY to prevent. I mean, say we request a completely new setup for custom games. Now that's something Blizz had to put lots and lots of work into it...I understand that they don't.
But actually nobody asked for rocks on taldarim EVER, all Blizz had to do was do a copy/paste of the GSL map. All the work has already been done "for" them. So instead of just taking what's in front of them, they willfully decide to make something really good...a bit worse. No taldarim isn't a bad map because of that. But the mere fact that Blizz took a well designed map, where people put a lot of effort into it to make it as well balanced as possible, and mutilated it with something completely unnecessary and stupid really deserves all the flaming and hate that's around here.
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I am on the single player right now waiting for the patch to complete, there are no changes to backwater in the single player, no Tal altar LE, shakura's looks the same..... I am assuming the maps will have to be downloaded when queuing for 1v1s? is that why they are still the same in single player?
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On March 23 2011 00:35 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC.
My apologies - I guess this wording wasn't clear.
This isn't what I think. I don't have enough experience to make this assertion, even if I did think this (I'd argue that no one yet has enough experience, but that's neither here nor there).
I recall reading a blizzard rep saying that their testing indicated zerg being too powerful given maps which allowed them to expand freely, although I don't have the source handy. As I don't have access to the data from said testing, I can't really comment on it, and doing so would be OT anyway.
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Thanks for reuploading the images!
I really don't undestand why Blizz is putting destructible rocks on expos. It really does only hurt the zerg and it's totally stupid. I understand that some expos like golds need to be protected by them so they can't be taken too early like on Xel Naga, but this is just bullshit. Blizz dunno anything about their own game. If they did, they would have addressed ZvP in their recent patch - but they didn't (except for the infestor change that wasn't intended to balance ZvP anyways)
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On March 23 2011 01:17 Juice303 wrote:
I am on the single player right now waiting for the patch to complete, there are no changes to backwater in the single player, no Tal altar LE, shakura's looks the same..... I am assuming the maps will have to be downloaded when queuing for 1v1s? is that why they are still the same in single player?
Yeah you have to download them, but you don't have to do it on the ladder. If you want to download a specific map you can create custom game and click the download button. You don't even need to jump into the map.
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On March 23 2011 01:18 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:35 Treehead wrote:On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC. My apologies - I guess this wording wasn't clear. This isn't what I think. I don't have enough experience to make this assertion, even if I did think this (I'd argue that no one yet has enough experience, but that's neither here nor there). I recall reading a blizzard rep saying that their testing indicated zerg being too powerful given maps which allowed them to expand freely, although I don't have the source handy. As I don't have access to the data from said testing, I can't really comment on it, and doing so would be OT anyway.
They are probally right about that - to some extend at least. Too fast 3-base growth could be too powerfull. Koreans found the solution to that by making the easy thirds 1gas, 6minerals. Really someone should inform Blizzard about that. Oh wait, they did already! But yeah sadly they ignored that and picked the solution that everybody pasionately hates by throwing destructible rocks at it.
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On March 23 2011 01:21 decaf wrote:
Thanks for reuploading the images!
I really don't undestand why Blizz is putting destructible rocks on expos. It really does only hurt the zerg and it's totally stupid. I understand that some expos like golds need to be protected by them so they can't be taken too early like on Xel Naga, but this is just bullshit. Blizz dunno anything about their own game. If they did, they would have addressed ZvP in their recent patch - but they didn't (except for the infestor change that wasn't intended to balance ZvP anyways)
Infester change wasn't intended to balance ZvP? You're joking, right? Do you realize that the doomball Protoss get consists of mostly armored units (collosus, stalker, voidray)?
So tell me, what exactly were they "intending" to balance with a 30% damage buff to armored? Was it so you could fungal tanks and thors more efficiently now (sarcasm)?
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Ares[Effort]
DEMACIA6550 Posts
Sigh blizzard, what's the point of having a GSL map if its technically not a GSL map? It defeats the whole purpose of training for GSL using ladder since they have "GSL map pool" blizzard added rocks and made it a full base, when GSL will use their own map they won't have a full base nor the rocks. ♥ Blizzard ........
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Training for GSL using ladder? They aren't going to make changes that will benefit 0.0001% of the player base. They changed the map in a way they saw fit that would make it more appropriate for the bnet population at large.
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EPT
