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parts of map changed in 1.3
credit to
myself lol
Simbot
Ezekyle
current map pool
Xel'Naga Caverns
Backwater Gulch
Typhon Peaks
Slag Pits
Delta Quadrant
Shakuras Plateau
Tal'Darim Altar LE
Metalopolis
The Shattered Temple
Scrap Station
1v1
+ Show Spoiler +Shakuras plataeu
Backdoor rocks are removed
2 rocks are placed near the 3rd of 12oclock and 6 oclock expo
rocks protecting the 3rd are removed.
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/welNB.jpg) 12oclock backdoor missing 12oclock with 2 new rocks rock protecting 3rd is gone Ramp...... + Show Spoiler +[url=http://imgur.com/VlL4N] 3rd expo with rocks + all 1500 minerals + 2 gas + Show Spoiler +
3V3 MAP
+ Show Spoiler +CINDER FORTRESS 1.0[url=http://imgur.com/ptQqH]
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nice nice
GSL map snuck in!
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Backwater Gulch also has the ramp moved to lead into the natural, back your natural easier to defend. Still a bad map, but a big improvement.
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On March 22 2011 12:09 jaiBing wrote:
yes!!!!!!TAL DARIM ALTAR LE!!!!!!
My life is complete. Thank you Blizzard. I will commence laddering immediately. 
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Great thanks for the noce write up and pics i had a hard time understanding what you ment until i saw the pics, not sure how i feel about the changes they made to tal darim alter but i think ill get use to it. As for the changes to shakuras i think they are great removes that back path the protoss and terren could use to pressure zerg.
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These are actual changes, going live?
If so, boss.
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Canada1637 Posts
Thanks for putting this into one topic, but doesn't GSL Taldarim have two geysers at the 3rd, just with 750 each?
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Huge improvement for backwater gulch, might actually be possible to expo now!
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So Shakuras is coming back better then even and a GSL map? What can get better?
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Sounds like some really interesting changes to the map pool. Shakuras, in particular - I can't decide whether I like the changes or not. Will have to play a few games and see. Looking forward to trying these on NA!
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Wow awsome. I was really eager to finnaly play on tal'darim, my favorite map next to shakuras. I like the modified 3rd on altar. I like the removal of Backdoor rocks, but i think rocks on third were good on shakuras. Thanks!
Btw, did thet just add maps or they removed some?
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Really great changes! I like them!
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Damn i wish they put in Terminus as well.
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Yes! I always loved Shakuras. As for Tal'Darim.. I am speechless. <3
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Looks good, can't exactly see what change to backwater gulch in the pic though.
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All these changes are great, anything that removes rocks that backdoor your main is EXCELLENT.
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Nice additions!
Shakuras I'm not sure but it looks more interesting now. The controversial backdoor rocks are gone now, but there's still a concept of backdooring, just now it's at the third. Pretty smart IMO.
Very nice change to Backwater!
Tal'Darim I'm not sure how that makes it more "ladder" friendly. The rocks aren't much of a problem to me, since it's just at the thirds, but why turn half bases into full?
Edit: The picture of Backwater is too big, so open it in another window/tab. Then you'll see. Basically they moved the ramp leading to the natural so that the natural is actually defendable now. Basically, the ramp points at the natural instead of away from it.
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Backwater Gulch is a decent map now O.o so much for 4gate fe on it xD
looking forward to the new shakuras as close positions wont be that hard to deal with now vs T :D
and the GSL map sneakin....so much happiness
i think these are the best moves that blizz has made with their mappool :DDD
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Shakuras from a first glance looks better, but I'll have to play on it some before I decide. I think I'm going to like the changes overall though.
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Can any1 help me to confirm on the scrap station map?? the island seems nearer to the starting base now.....
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Wow blizzard is actually listening? Kudos to them.
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I thought they were going to add 3 GSL maps. The new Shakuras is definetly worse than any of those.
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very nice changes. now maybe i can change my veto from backwater gulch to something else. but maybe not even, i mean now the only horrid maps are delta and slag. the rest are all pretty nice.
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The Backwater Gulch change is a pretty big deal. Before, the ramp was way far from your natural, so you couldn't really protect both bases at the same time easily (especially with the destructible rocks there). Now, you can, so builds beyond one-base timing attacks are more viable.
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This is amazing. I was so sad when Shakuras was removed and now it's back and better than ever... Tal Darim altar is nice but not my favorite GSL map at the moment. I want Terminus RE and Crevasse
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Lol blizzard seriously cant resist adding rocks everywhere -_-. Seems unnecesary to block another expo off with rocks in Tarim i wish they would just keep the maps the way people who actually know wat theyre doing made them =/
Also won't removing the back rocks be even worse on shakuras? Terran can now siege the bottom and elevator 1 group of marines to the top to keep poking the mineral line and retreating when zerg comes. That wat seemed to make the backdoor push so strong in the first place and why Zergs always had to break those rocks or they were even more screwed. I guess you could attack through the new path? I dunno its probably just the pessimist in me lol.
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I cannot understand, is 1.3 live?
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The change to shakuras is a huge nerf to terran on that map. But, considering the effectiveness of that backdoor crawling + take 3rd strategy in TvZ, it may have been warranted.
Really looking forward to playing on Tal'darim altar on ladder!!!
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This is awesome! I really like the changes to Shakuras and the addition of Tal'Darim Altar. That should be very interesting. Time to elevator Tanks on the back door on Shakuras; Zerg will never suspect it now. Hehehe.
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I dont truly understand the reasoning behind messing with the gsl map. Do they not agree with bases having less minerals/gas? Shaq changes are really nice, but still only 1 attack path. Im glad blizzard is making an effort to improve their maps.
I hope blizzard makes an attempt of adding the map pools from GSL/MLG/IEM/NASL. I know why they are intimated by a big pool because of the lower leagues, but if they just limit the big map pool to master's/grand masters, it would be a dream ladder. One can hope!
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Not digging the change to Tal'Darim. Otherwise pretty epic.
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On March 22 2011 12:25 L3gendary wrote:
Wow blizzard is actually listening? Kudos to them.
they have to, unless they want their community to move on without them. BW iCCup being a great example of this.
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On March 22 2011 12:28 SubtleArt wrote:
Lol blizzard seriously cant resist adding rocks everywhere -_-. Seems unnecesary to block another expo off with rocks,
Also won't removing the back rocks be even worse? Terran can now siege the bottom and elevator 1 group of marines to the top to keep poking the mineral line and retreating when zerg comes. That wat seemed to make the backdoor push so strong in the first place and why Zergs always had to break those rocks or they were even more screwed.
But wont removing the rocks give more time for zergs to respond? If they have overlord there they can snipe the medivacs with mutas that are transporting small groups of units at once, instead of having their entire army behind the rocks in seconds.
Personally i love the new change on Shakuras, since T/P always do some sort of allin through there Also wondering if any maps were removed from the map pool such as DQ or slag pits?
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Blizzard couldn't justify using a GSL map unless it had destructible rocks.
It's still a welcome addition though, can't wait to play on it.
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The entire point of Taldarim was you have an easy to take 3rd, but it gives less resources, so you weigh your options of taking either that or taking another main or another natural or just another base somewhere. That way it's not just a completely total free entire base of income, it adds a strategic dynamic.
But now, it's just another map with rocks blocking your natural 3rd.
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Blizzard, make up your mind regarding Shakuras....lol. Regardless, I'm thankful it's back.
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Awesome, but where is crevasse?
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place bets on how long this version of shakerous will be in map pool
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On March 22 2011 12:34 Carbonthief wrote:
The entire point of Taldarim was you have an easy to take 3rd, but it gives less resources, so you weigh your options of taking either that or taking another main or another natural or just another base somewhere. That way it's not just a completely total free entire base of income, it adds a strategic dynamic.
But now, it's just another map with rocks blocking your natural 3rd.
It's still the best map in the pool, though, even with Typhon and Neo Shakuras.
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Excited that Tal'Darim alter is in the map pool - however I dont know why they made the half expands into fulls.
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On March 22 2011 12:35 godemperor wrote:
Awesome, but where is crevasse?
I know Crevasse is my favorite GSL map.
LOL at Taldarim Alter LE. Add a GSL Map. Make the Third have rocks in order to make it more ladder friendly.
Why you trolling Dustin? How the heck do rocks make a map better? Didn't you just take away a ton of rocks from Shakuras? Doesn't that say something?
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Great additions imo.
Backwater is almost playable now.
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Blizzard didn't screw the pooch!
Shakuras looks like it's better, Backwater looks sweet!
I'll have to play TD before judging, but gj blizz!
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On March 22 2011 12:33 Cookie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 12:28 SubtleArt wrote:
Lol blizzard seriously cant resist adding rocks everywhere -_-. Seems unnecesary to block another expo off with rocks,
Also won't removing the back rocks be even worse? Terran can now siege the bottom and elevator 1 group of marines to the top to keep poking the mineral line and retreating when zerg comes. That wat seemed to make the backdoor push so strong in the first place and why Zergs always had to break those rocks or they were even more screwed. But wont removing the rocks give more time for zergs to respond? If they have overlord there they can snipe the medivacs with mutas that are transporting small groups of units at once, instead of having their entire army behind the rocks in seconds. Personally i love the new change on Shakuras, since T/P always do some sort of allin through there Also wondering if any maps were removed from the map pool such as DQ or slag pits?
You can't really snipe a dropship if 3 pixels to the left is a bunch of marines and probably 1 thor, its just not cost effective. Biggest problem I see with the rocks is there theres almost no way to actually get rid of a terran army camped behind the ledge. Yes before it was horribly impractical shoving ling / bling down a small ramp but its better than nothing lol. Maybe u can just head out ur natural and come from behind through the new rocks, but even that would probably be pretty hard if terran sieges well and bunkers it. I dunno have to wait and see i guess.
A lot of times when T did that push I'd make a nydus and try to somehow sneak it somewhere on the map so i could come from behind with my army but the path was so narrow terran almost always saw it =/
On March 22 2011 12:34 Carbonthief wrote:
The entire point of Taldarim was you have an easy to take 3rd, but it gives less resources, so you weigh your options of taking either that or taking another main or another natural or just another base somewhere. That way it's not just a completely total free entire base of income, it adds a strategic dynamic.
But now, it's just another map with rocks blocking your natural 3rd.
Actually I think it was just to balance the map more. With such huge distances theres little stopping Z from taking that 3rd almost instantly, so it might be OP for Z if it gave you full resources that quick. I guess rocks achieve the same effect but I hate rocks they feel so gimmicky, like ur desperately trying to force a map feature onto the player. In general though I just don't like blizzard modifying GSL maps. GSL maps are made by really good map designers who have a clue about the game and what people actually want to see. Blizzard's map making team has been pretty embarrassing.
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Hurm, maybe i won't have to waste a veto on Back-canfinallyholddownyournaturalexpansion-water Gulch now and i can use it on Typhon-hideyourprobeintheretardedgrassinthebackofyourbase Peaks.
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I'm not liking the changes to Tal'Darim Altar, the fact that it had that sort of 3rd made it special and exciting, Blizzard has just gone and made it more boring than it needs to be
PS: Can anyone confirm how many mineral patches there are in the Main on Tal'Darim? I can recall the GSL version in NA having 9, but from the minimap on those pictures there appears to only be 8.
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why put rocks at the third on tal'darim? why does blizzard like rocks so much?
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gsl map is good but needs more rocks
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Why is Blizzard averse to desert/badlands/space 1v1 maps? =(
Good changes though.
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Three cheers for Blizzard for listening. Hip Hip Hooray!
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So those Shakuras changes actually look more balanced than the map already was? Hmm. Interesting. Nice to see that GSL map! I have faith again in the map decisions.
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On March 22 2011 12:44 Foreplay wrote:
why put rocks at the third on tal'darim? why does blizzard like rocks so much?
[Sarcasm]Didn't you read its to make it more ladder friendly GOSH. [/Sarcasm]
Yeah and why make it a full expo? The reason it was smaller with a high yield gas was to promote expanding more by making a 4th more economically benefiting. Everyones gonna go fast 3 base 200 Turtle push now without thinking about a 4th.At least its better then 1 base and 2 base play.
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blizzard: " damn how dare GSL not putting destructible rocks on the map.*put a rock on each 3rd*. AH! there we go!"
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No.....way.....
That change to backwater gulch was something I had mentioned to a friend that would make the map much better. NICE!
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1.4, less rocks more metal scraps.
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those rocks are BS on tal darim, again zerg needs millions of light years to brake them with lings, fast 3 hatches was an interesting opening on GSL maps, guess not as possible now
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this is badass, will that ridiculously small new map be removed?
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totally looking forward to the changes in the maps... espcecially backwater gulch since the wide entrance ramp at your natural means that protoss had to do alot of late expands or 1 base plays... encourages alot more long macro games now...
and SP, removal of backdoor rocks is easier for terrans and protosses as well since its harder for zergs to do multiprong attacks... all in all nice map changes, shall play Tal de'rim altar and the new maps on custom first before laddering though...
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Rocks blocking expos are the worst use of said rocks.
EDIT: I want my army controlling important space so that I can expo behind it safely. I don't want my army all the way back at my base breaking stupid rocks. Why should expoing be so restrictive? It doesn't even make the map more "ladder friendly", whatever that means.
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On March 22 2011 12:43 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 12:33 Cookie wrote:On March 22 2011 12:28 SubtleArt wrote:
Lol blizzard seriously cant resist adding rocks everywhere -_-. Seems unnecesary to block another expo off with rocks,
Also won't removing the back rocks be even worse? Terran can now siege the bottom and elevator 1 group of marines to the top to keep poking the mineral line and retreating when zerg comes. That wat seemed to make the backdoor push so strong in the first place and why Zergs always had to break those rocks or they were even more screwed. But wont removing the rocks give more time for zergs to respond? If they have overlord there they can snipe the medivacs with mutas that are transporting small groups of units at once, instead of having their entire army behind the rocks in seconds. Personally i love the new change on Shakuras, since T/P always do some sort of allin through there Also wondering if any maps were removed from the map pool such as DQ or slag pits? You can't really snipe a dropship if 3 pixels to the left is a bunch of marines and probably 1 thor, its just not cost effective. Biggest problem I see with the rocks is there theres almost no way to actually get rid of a terran army camped behind the ledge. Yes before it was horribly impractical shoving ling / bling down a small ramp but its better than nothing lol. Maybe u can just head out ur natural and come from behind through the new rocks, but even that would probably be pretty hard if terran sieges well and bunkers it. I dunno have to wait and see i guess. A lot of times when T did that push I'd make a nydus and try to somehow sneak it somewhere on the map so i could come from behind with my army but the path was so narrow terran almost always saw it =/
I think the main advantage of this change is that, while the Terran can indeed siege up outside your base, it makes it very difficult for them to actually kill you. I've not studied the map carefully, but it seems to me that as long as you build stuff away from that side of your base they won't be able to hit anything important (such as your hatchery), so you can just let them sit there and maybe deny you one extractor while you take the whole map. If they want to actually kill your main with the backdoor push they need to do a doom drop, which is possible on pretty much any map and can be swept up in seconds by mutalisks. Also, broodlords are much better now that marines can't just run up and snipe them, and if you can reach greater spire the backdoor push is over.
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On March 22 2011 12:12 Noev wrote:
Great thanks for the noce write up and pics i had a hard time understanding what you ment until i saw the pics, not sure how i feel about the changes they made to tal darim alter but i think ill get use to it. As for the changes to shakuras i think they are great removes that back path the protoss and terren could use to pressure zerg.
Reapers? Colossus? Blink Stalkers? Drops? Drops + Siege in the low ground will be really strong, still. It will deny 1 gas and possibly 2 mineral patches.
But still, better than before.
And they ruined Tal Darim Altar.
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awesome! they managed to make shakuras plateau even worse (now even more to be unable to attack into a terran/protoss 3rd at the 12/6 o clock bases.
moreover, they added in rocks on tal darim altar to the 3rd base, so when the terran or protoss 15cc/nexus, you are going to be 2base vs 2base for the first 10minutes or will have to expo into the middle of nowhere, hope it doesn't get spotted, or just sac it and the workers at it. damn blizzard always had been great at making maps for this game.
p.s. you'll notice macro zergs have 10~ supply worth of units for the first 10min if the conditions apply.
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On March 22 2011 12:44 Tazerenix wrote:
Hurm, maybe i won't have to waste a veto on Back-canfinallyholddownyournaturalexpansion-water Gulch now and i can use it on Typhon-hideyourprobeintheretardedgrassinthebackofyourbase Peaks.
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I'm not liking the changes to Tal'Darim Altar, the fact that it had that sort of 3rd made it special and exciting, Blizzard has just gone and made it more boring than it needs to be
PS: Can anyone confirm how many mineral patches there are in the Main on Tal'Darim? I can recall the GSL version in NA having 9, but from the minimap on those pictures there appears to only be 8.
I didn't know about Typhon-hideyourprobeintheretardedgrassinthebackofyourbase Peaks till i lost to a 4gate there because a hidden probe there was able to a pylon. Sad thing is i saw the probe go in the corner earlier and when i sent 4 lings there i stared at my screen for 5 seconds and went wtf where'd it go and sent my lings away.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
i this changes specially Backwater, and Shakuras :D
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On March 22 2011 12:54 majestouch wrote:
awesome! they managed to make shakuras plateau even worse (now even more to be unable to attack into a terran/protoss 3rd at the 12/6 o clock bases.
moreover, they added in rocks on tal darim altar to the 3rd base, so when the terran or protoss 15cc/nexus, you are going to be 2base vs 2base for the first 10minutes or will have to expo into the middle of nowhere, hope it doesn't get spotted, or just sac it and the workers at it. damn blizzard always had been great at making maps for this game.
p.s. you'll notice macro zergs have 10~ supply worth of units for the first 10min if the conditions apply.
You are so negative. Lol.
1. They added shakuras back in.
2. They removed the thing in Shakuras that zerg players complained about the most.
3. They added one of the GSL maps
DAMNIT BLIZZARD WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!!
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-_- Why add rocks to the third on Taldarim? It's nice to see Blizz listening, but if they just take GSL maps and add rocks anywhere they want then I still think they will fall out to iCCUP or something in the future.
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Shakuras: Great Change!!!
Backwater: Good change, but still don't like the map.
Tal'Darim Altar: urg...why did they ruin it? (slight exageration, but the the original was superior IMO.)
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Imagine if iCCup had taken Fighting Spirit and added temples at the third.
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I don't like the idea of rocks blocking expansions.
It should be the player's choice if he or she wants to take the risk in sneaking that expansion without any attacking units, not the game's choice. If Blizzard believes the expansion is too safe or close, then move it away or remove it. But don't put rocks to deter a double expansion build.
Honestly I think they're just trying to figure out how to keep their cool little concept in the game.
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Great changes for Shakuras, happy that it's back! ;D
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On March 22 2011 12:58 Hobokinz wrote:
-_- Why add rocks to the third on Taldarim? It's nice to see Blizz listening, but if they just take GSL maps and add rocks anywhere they want then I still think they will fall out to iCCUP or something in the future.
They added more minerals and an extra gas i think. So if they didnt have the rocks it would be to OP.
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On March 22 2011 12:54 majestouch wrote:
awesome! they managed to make shakuras plateau even worse (now even more to be unable to attack into a terran/protoss 3rd at the 12/6 o clock bases.
Ummm, isn't that kind of the point? I thought we were encouraging people to take a 3rd rather than 1-base all in.
This is awesome, brute forcing spawn positions was such an ugly fix to Shakuras for tournaments, now they can use the real map (just have to put close air back into MLG Metalopolis now). Don't even mind the changes to Tal-Darim much. Theres a good chance that like 50% of people on the ladder have never even heard of the GSL. I'd rather not add a new feature (bases being different sizes) on one random map now, maybe in HotS.
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rocks as a backdoor are always a dumb idea i cannot believe it took them this long to see that
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On March 22 2011 12:58 TERRANLOL wrote:
2. They removed the thing in Shakuras that zerg players complained about the most.
The change was akin to change destructible rocks to destructible debris... Not too different.
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On March 22 2011 12:51 vojnik wrote:
those rocks are BS on tal darim, again zerg needs millions of light years to brake them with lings, fast 3 hatches was an interesting opening on GSL maps, guess not as possible now
Fast 3 hatches when you don't have enough units to break one set of rocks seems stupid greedy to me, a zerg can still get a fast 3rd, just not before spawning pool 
It shall prove interesting to see how pros play macro games on shakuras though, as it is pretty much an entirely new map.
Overall I am pretty happy with these changes, and look forward to playing ladder
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Is this an unnofficial change? Blizz doesn't have these changes posted on their website, are these from the SEA server?
I am happy that blizz is listening to the community but I don't understand why they would change TA... with this change it is effectively a different map and requires different strats. Maybe if the ladder TA is picked up instead or w/e but imo (and it seems the rest of this threads as well) that these changes aren't needed and are bad.
Backwater gulch could turn out being an awesome map because of this change (at least a lot better).
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well you have to admit, the recent changes to the map pool are excellent as compared to their previous map changes...
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I'm hoping more GSL maps sneak in, crossfire, terminus etc they are x10 times better than blizzard maps
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On March 22 2011 13:04 raf3776 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 12:58 Hobokinz wrote:
-_- Why add rocks to the third on Taldarim? It's nice to see Blizz listening, but if they just take GSL maps and add rocks anywhere they want then I still think they will fall out to iCCUP or something in the future. They added more minerals and an extra gas i think. So if they didnt have the rocks it would be to OP.
How is that OP? Every race can expand there so it's not like if Toss expands there then they will be way too strong. It's just annoying that Blizz thinks that they need to add rock to stop an expo from being taken too early.
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so im sorry if this has been answered are these map changes being added in tommorrow on the NA server or when the season 2 begins next tuesday?
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On March 22 2011 13:07 Hobokinz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 13:04 raf3776 wrote:On March 22 2011 12:58 Hobokinz wrote:
-_- Why add rocks to the third on Taldarim? It's nice to see Blizz listening, but if they just take GSL maps and add rocks anywhere they want then I still think they will fall out to iCCUP or something in the future. They added more minerals and an extra gas i think. So if they didnt have the rocks it would be to OP. How is that OP? Every race can expand there so it's not like if Toss expands there then they will be way too strong. It's just annoying that Blizz thinks that they need to add rock to stop an expo from being taken too early.
A zerg getting a super quick 3rd with double gas would be super strong. As well as a toss getting a super fast 3rd would be ridiculous as well. Its still fast but not as fast.
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On March 22 2011 13:07 HomicidaL wrote:
so im sorry if this has been answered are these map changes being added in tommorrow on the NA server or when the season 2 begins next tuesday?
Im sure the maps are being added by tomorrow because SEA already has these maps from the look of the photos.
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Hell yes. Shakuras is back AND theres Tal Darim altar.
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What most people don't understand its 3 FULL bases guarded by one choke, in GSL is 2.5 bases guarded by one choke. It would be too OP if you could have 3 full and easy to get bases guarded by one choke. Its why the rocks was added.
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I don't like the idea of rocks at third either. It just turns it into another Blizzard map
I thought they were gonna add more GSL maps as well. Are Blizzard really that stubborn in adding maps they didn't create to the pool?
Oh well, at least they're listening
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On March 22 2011 13:13 Snausages wrote:I don't like the idea of rocks at third either. It just turns it into another Blizzard map I thought they were gonna add more GSL maps as well. Are Blizzard really that stubborn in adding maps they didn't create to the pool? Oh well, at least they're listening
I think they worked with the original creators on the ladder version of the maps.
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![[image loading]](http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6091/1176208331168.jpg)
At least it's better than nothing :/
I really don't know why Blizzard insists on making ignorant changes like this when the meta-game suggests it's a terrible decision to add rocks there.
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god.
they just HAD to add some rocks in didn't they.
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On March 22 2011 13:09 raf3776 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 13:07 Hobokinz wrote:On March 22 2011 13:04 raf3776 wrote:On March 22 2011 12:58 Hobokinz wrote:
-_- Why add rocks to the third on Taldarim? It's nice to see Blizz listening, but if they just take GSL maps and add rocks anywhere they want then I still think they will fall out to iCCUP or something in the future. They added more minerals and an extra gas i think. So if they didnt have the rocks it would be to OP. How is that OP? Every race can expand there so it's not like if Toss expands there then they will be way too strong. It's just annoying that Blizz thinks that they need to add rock to stop an expo from being taken too early. A zerg getting a super quick 3rd with double gas would be super strong. As well as a toss getting a super fast 3rd would be ridiculous as well. Its still fast but not as fast.
Active scouting should allow you to punish such insanely greedy builds. Why ruin Tal'Darim with these rocks?, it makes no sense, the map was perfect without them. I still don't understand blizz' obsesion with people not making thirds, that's kinda the moment in which games start getting the most interesting.
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On March 22 2011 13:09 raf3776 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 13:07 Hobokinz wrote:On March 22 2011 13:04 raf3776 wrote:On March 22 2011 12:58 Hobokinz wrote:
-_- Why add rocks to the third on Taldarim? It's nice to see Blizz listening, but if they just take GSL maps and add rocks anywhere they want then I still think they will fall out to iCCUP or something in the future. They added more minerals and an extra gas i think. So if they didnt have the rocks it would be to OP. How is that OP? Every race can expand there so it's not like if Toss expands there then they will be way too strong. It's just annoying that Blizz thinks that they need to add rock to stop an expo from being taken too early. A zerg getting a super quick 3rd with double gas would be super strong. As well as a toss getting a super fast 3rd would be ridiculous as well. Its still fast but not as fast.
its not about the gas really, look at GSL version, you have 1 geyser, i am pretty fine with that as zerg, what makes it good is that you can place the hatch there in advance and saturate it slowly while not spending lots of larvae for lings or even if you do spend on lings you can at least use it for map control, not to mention spread creep as soon as possible between the 3 bases which is damn important on a huge map like this.
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On March 22 2011 13:13 eMazing wrote:
What most people don't understand its 3 FULL bases guarded by one choke, in GSL is 2.5 bases guarded by one choke. It would be too OP if you could have 3 full and easy to get bases guarded by one choke. Its why the rocks was added.
Actually there are two chokes there. One is near the natural leading directly into the center and the other is the same sized ramp as the first but hidden partially behind tall grass and it leads into the natural 4th but can be accessed from the center pretty easily.
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I like the changes, even if i still have to play on typhon peaks.
I think I will still definitely veto slag-goodluckgrabbingathird-pits, delta-mygodwhyisthisevenamapoption-quadrant, and backwater gulch (although in all fairness I should at least give it a try).
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On March 22 2011 13:13 eMazing wrote:
What most people don't understand its 3 FULL bases guarded by one choke, in GSL is 2.5 bases guarded by one choke. It would be too OP if you could have 3 full and easy to get bases guarded by one choke. Its why the rocks was added.
Like on Typhon you mean?
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Anyone know if there are any more changes to any maps?
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Lol, people will bitch about anything.
I for one am delighted with these changes. Shakuras is back, Backwater is improved and we're even getting Tal'Darim! Yeah, they're adding rocks - but they also enrichened the expansion they're putting rocks over.
You don't have to like the change, it'd just be nice if people could be happy about all the changes we're getting, instead of just whining about the one questionable decision Blizzard are making.
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On March 22 2011 13:23 Moonloop wrote:
Lol, people will bitch about anything.
I for one am delighted with these changes. Shakuras is back, Backwater is improved and we're even getting Tal'Darim! Yeah, they're adding rocks - but they also enrichened the expansion they're putting rocks over.
You don't have to like the change, it'd just be nice if people could be happy about all the changes we're getting, instead of just whining about the one questionable decision Blizzard are making.
think why people bitch about it is because blizzard themselves announced they will be adding GSL maps, i am afraid that changing them is their version of "adding"
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so can anyone confirm? What's the new map pool looking like? Is shakuras even in the pool or is it just a map in the custom list? Please update OP with the new map pool for ladder, thanks.
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AWESOME! Now for relatively good maps we have: Metalopolis, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim, Typhon, XNC, and shakuras. If Slag gets removed also, I will finally be able to take a 3rd if I want to on every map.
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On March 22 2011 13:19 SolHeiM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 13:13 eMazing wrote:
What most people don't understand its 3 FULL bases guarded by one choke, in GSL is 2.5 bases guarded by one choke. It would be too OP if you could have 3 full and easy to get bases guarded by one choke. Its why the rocks was added. Like on Typhon you mean?
Typhon has 2 chokes going into the natural + another covered by rocks + rocks going into the third.
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Regarding Tal'Darim Altar, I posted this in the other thread but I think I could post it here:
On March 22 2011 13:13 Veldril wrote:
I really think people overreact to the addition of rocks to the third expansions of Tal'Darim Altar and make it a full expansion for a couple of reasons.
1. Not all people knows about the third expansion being only half of the full one. Lower league players might not even know what GSL is and don't know about maps from the tournament. So Blizz have to make the map as simple as possible (no half base) so it can be easily understand by players in a broader skill range. Some might argue that the map don't need to cater for the noob players but still they are players who paid the full price to pay the game as us so too so Blizz have to find the middle ground.
2. From the point above, they have to add rocks to the third so that the expansion is not too easy to be taken. It means players have to invest in something (moving units and spending time to clear the rocks) and delay the second a little bit. Unless there's a better way to solve this problem, I think adding rocks would do the trick for now.
3. I don't really think that Blizz modified the map without consulting LSPrime. If I remember correctly, Xeph stated that Blizzard Korea was working with JackiePrime and LSPrime to import and modify GSL maps for the ladder. Therefore, I think the mapmaker should already have an approval on this change.
4. We really don't know how the change will really affect the game until we try the maps for at least hundreds times. I think we should play the map for a month first then gather feedback and send it to Blizz instead of whining right before the map is really played.
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OHMYGOD!!
I'm loving all those 1v1 map changes, shakuras is playable once again, backwater is a LOT better that way as well and Tal'Darim Altar, even though modified, is a really welcome addition to the current map pool. This together with bunker/stim nerf and the New Fungal(tm) makes me want this patch to hit live on EU as well SOOOO badly. :D
Thanks Blizzard, now take a look at ZvP (mostly forcefields, maybe ZvColossi) and I'm set to play the game without frustration until an expansion comes and thrashes everything you've managed to do so far. :D
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I don't know if I like the change to shakuras. Elevator'd marines are going to be even harder to deal with. Terran didn't typically knock down the rocks until zerg had basically lost anyways as is. This will basically kill the one base marine/tank push, yes, but 2 base pushes are going to be harder to deal with.
In general, having areas near you base that you can't access from your base is a bad thing.
Tal'darim shouldn't have been changed. The extra minerals basically just made standard macro hatch timings a semi-third. It allowed toss and terran to take a third very quickly as well if that's the type of game wanted.
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Thanks Blizzard, now take a look at ZvP (mostly forcefields, maybe ZvColossi) and I'm set to play the game without frustration until an expansion comes and thrashes everything you've managed to do so far. :D
New fungal should help ZvCollosus a lot.
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On March 22 2011 13:26 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 13:19 SolHeiM wrote:On March 22 2011 13:13 eMazing wrote:
What most people don't understand its 3 FULL bases guarded by one choke, in GSL is 2.5 bases guarded by one choke. It would be too OP if you could have 3 full and easy to get bases guarded by one choke. Its why the rocks was added. Like on Typhon you mean? Typhon has 2 chokes going into the natural + another covered by rocks + rocks going into the third.
Tal'darim has two chokes, one for the third, one for the natural. The tiny "choke" connecting the oddly placed 12 and 6 o'clock bases on Typhon can hardly be considered a choke, as it's an easily defended location with a spotter and no one attacks through a choke that small anyway.
The rocks being knocked down are easily spotted as well, and that only leaves the one choke right into your natural.
A zerg who wants to take three fast bases on Typhon will do so relatively unharmed, because it's so easy to defend.
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so is taldardim altar smaller? Screenshot kinda looks like its smaller and hopefully i'm wrong .
Um Like backwater change might un veto it,
so no way to go through the back way into shakuras? fucking awesome glad to see that can't wait to have that back in the pool.
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I'd like to see a gap between the cliff of the main on shakuras and what was previously the back door expo. And that attack path down the middle looks like suicide for zerg : X It's like a protoss/terran dream hallway. Gonna see a lot of zergs destroying ALL the rocks on that map : P
Glad they added Tal'Darim, but I knew they couldn't keep their hands off it I'll take what I can get.
Still hoping this list is incomplete, maybe a couple more pro maps? That would be sweet.
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On March 22 2011 13:14 raf3776 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 13:13 Snausages wrote:I don't like the idea of rocks at third either. It just turns it into another Blizzard map I thought they were gonna add more GSL maps as well. Are Blizzard really that stubborn in adding maps they didn't create to the pool? Oh well, at least they're listening I think they worked with the original creators on the ladder version of the maps.
It's like working with Beethoven to create the muzak version of the 5th symphony.
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man sick maps! the new shak looks way too sick i cant wait. also i can now uncheck backwater and use my veto elsewhere :p i have no idea what they were thinking with that nat.
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I really really hope this means they are going to bring back shakuras and take away slag pits.
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On March 22 2011 13:25 emc wrote:
so can anyone confirm? What's the new map pool looking like? Is shakuras even in the pool or is it just a map in the custom list? Please update OP with the new map pool for ladder, thanks.
Yes its the new map pool, the Patch went live on SEA (because blizzard loves us :D) and the maps are as previously stated.
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so whats the map pool looking like right now? quit beating around the bush, I just want to know what maps are in 1v1
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God damnit, awesome to see taldarim altar on the ladder, and freaking awesome that they realized that the ramp was the was bad on backwather. But why the rocks ? Seems unecesarry to put the rocks on every damn map. Who asks for them and who thinks it's a good idea ?
Other then the rocks, Freaking awesome changes !!! Keep em coming blizz
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Metalopolis, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim, Typhon, and Shakuras
You forgot Xel'Naga :D
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Russian Federation484 Posts
On March 22 2011 13:00 butter wrote:
Imagine if iCCup had taken Fighting Spirit and added temples at the third.
That made me want to kill myself.
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Looks interesting! Keen to play on the new changes!
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On March 22 2011 13:36 Tazerenix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 13:25 emc wrote:
so can anyone confirm? What's the new map pool looking like? Is shakuras even in the pool or is it just a map in the custom list? Please update OP with the new map pool for ladder, thanks. Yes its the new map pool, the Patch went live on SEA (because blizzard loves us :D) and the maps are as previously stated.
someone mentioned a Scrap Station change, can you confirm/deny?
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way to fuck up tal darim altar blizzard l o l.
but rest of the changes decent i suppose.
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On March 22 2011 13:39 da_head wrote:
way to fuck up tal darim altar blizzard l o l.
but rest of the changes decent i suppose.
Haha while I support these changes, Blizzard is still refusing to take that last step. Gotta show em who's the boss around here.
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Alright Everyone. Maps are:
Xel'Naga Caverns
Backwater Gulch
Typhon Peaks
Slag Pits
Delta Quadrant
New Shakuras Plateau
Tal'Darim Altar LE
Metalopolis (with close spawns as far as i know)
The Shattered Temple
Scrap Station
(My vetoed maps are in bold)
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This is going to be really hard for Zerg against a Protoss who goes Nexus first on Blizzard's Tal'Darim, one of the hallmarks is taking the third hatch really fast, but having those destructible rocks there is going to make it a nightmare, if I decide to take the 3rd hatch at a different location, that leaves me super vulnerable to a 6gate. Having full mineral patches on the 3rd is going to make it even more difficult to deal with the methodical Protoss ball who gets to take that 3rd for free anyways. Zerg simply can't attack into Protoss's first 3 bases due to the defensive capabilities of Sentries, Colossus, and the fact that there are 2 narrow chokes/ramps. The key feature of that map for Zerg is that while the 3rd is easy to take for the Protoss, it doesn't get the benefits of a real base, and Protoss has to leave the comfort of their easily defensible ramps to take their 4th base.
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On March 22 2011 13:19 SolHeiM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 13:13 eMazing wrote:
What most people don't understand its 3 FULL bases guarded by one choke, in GSL is 2.5 bases guarded by one choke. It would be too OP if you could have 3 full and easy to get bases guarded by one choke. Its why the rocks was added. Like on Typhon you mean?
If you spawn top/down, no.
and you can always break the rocks to the third, which is also a low ground, while the Tal'Darim third is not
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On March 22 2011 13:23 Moonloop wrote:
Lol, people will bitch about anything.
I for one am delighted with these changes. Shakuras is back, Backwater is improved and we're even getting Tal'Darim! Yeah, they're adding rocks - but they also enrichened the expansion they're putting rocks over.
You don't have to like the change, it'd just be nice if people could be happy about all the changes we're getting, instead of just whining about the one questionable decision Blizzard are making.
The problem (for me) is that they could be doing the right, and best thing, by doing NOTHING to the map and adding it as is.
But they GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to fuck a completely fine map.
If they did nothing to it, there would be no whine, here, just praise.
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well I can finally un-veto backwater cos of the wide ramp leading up to your natural and your main... now I can just veto scrap station and slag pits... Slag pits has a WAY TOO WIDE natural for terrans and protoss...
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On March 22 2011 13:28 Veldril wrote:Regarding Tal'Darim Altar, I posted this in the other thread but I think I could post it here: Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 13:13 Veldril wrote:
I really think people overreact to the addition of rocks to the third expansions of Tal'Darim Altar and make it a full expansion for a couple of reasons.
1. Not all people knows about the third expansion being only half of the full one. Lower league players might not even know what GSL is and don't know about maps from the tournament. So Blizz have to make the map as simple as possible (no half base) so it can be easily understand by players in a broader skill range. Some might argue that the map don't need to cater for the noob players but still they are players who paid the full price to pay the game as us so too so Blizz have to find the middle ground.
2. From the point above, they have to add rocks to the third so that the expansion is not too easy to be taken. It means players have to invest in something (moving units and spending time to clear the rocks) and delay the second a little bit. Unless there's a better way to solve this problem, I think adding rocks would do the trick for now.
3. I don't really think that Blizz modified the map without consulting LSPrime. If I remember correctly, Xeph stated that Blizzard Korea was working with JackiePrime and LSPrime to import and modify GSL maps for the ladder. Therefore, I think the mapmaker should already have an approval on this change.
4. We really don't know how the change will really affect the game until we try the maps for at least hundreds times. I think we should play the map for a month first then gather feedback and send it to Blizz instead of whining right before the map is really played.
That's all well and good. However, what this argues for more than anything are League-based maps, where each League uses a different map pool.
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I've been quite pleased with the way Blizzard has been changing the map pool. Hopefully they'll keep it up and we'll have great new maps with each season.
I agree that it's a shame the map pools are different than tournament pools, but i'm ok with that now. The ladder maps are good enough to practice overall strategy and mechanics. It's pretty easy to find practice partners for non-ladder maps these days now that chat channels and irc are pretty active.
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those inside ramps must be a reaction to the forcefield crisis, blizzard finally realizes ramps facing outside just beg to get forcefielded
pleaaaase no close spawns a la TSL!
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On March 22 2011 12:13 Treadmill wrote:
Sounds like some really interesting changes to the map pool. Shakuras, in particular - I can't decide whether I like the changes or not. Will have to play a few games and see. Looking forward to trying these on NA!
Ya, for sure i dont know how i fell about these aside from Tal darim alter add thats good no matter what.
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Can't they tell people about the half minerals at the third in the loading screen? maybe with pictures or making the minerals green or red to be clear? Then they don't have to worry about people not noticing and wouldn't have to change anything.
Maybe even get really creative and play a cut scene saying watch out for these half minerals here first time you play the map?
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All the maps are still there. No changes so we just got more maps in the pool now.
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Backwater gulch looks a LOT better. I'll have to test it out and see whether it's worth vetoing something else instead.
Shakuras is definately an improvement too.
Tal'darim Alter, what can I say? It's awesome to see this on the ladder. Of course blizzard had to change it a little to make it their own, and what could be better than some of blizzards favourite thing in the world - destructible rocks.
Good decisions by blizzard, the map pool is looking WAY better than it did a month ago.
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Thanks blizzard for listening to the community and adding a GSL map
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I like the shakuras changes and im glad to see it back, but im disappointed they edited altar it was already a really good map and didnt need rocks messing it up.
As for vetoes it will be delta, backwater despite the changes and a tossup between slag and scrap station. Slag can be a free win or uphill battle depending on spawn positions, and i have always hated PvZ scrap.
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On March 22 2011 13:48 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 13:28 Veldril wrote:Regarding Tal'Darim Altar, I posted this in the other thread but I think I could post it here: On March 22 2011 13:13 Veldril wrote:
I really think people overreact to the addition of rocks to the third expansions of Tal'Darim Altar and make it a full expansion for a couple of reasons.
1. Not all people knows about the third expansion being only half of the full one. Lower league players might not even know what GSL is and don't know about maps from the tournament. So Blizz have to make the map as simple as possible (no half base) so it can be easily understand by players in a broader skill range. Some might argue that the map don't need to cater for the noob players but still they are players who paid the full price to pay the game as us so too so Blizz have to find the middle ground.
2. From the point above, they have to add rocks to the third so that the expansion is not too easy to be taken. It means players have to invest in something (moving units and spending time to clear the rocks) and delay the second a little bit. Unless there's a better way to solve this problem, I think adding rocks would do the trick for now.
3. I don't really think that Blizz modified the map without consulting LSPrime. If I remember correctly, Xeph stated that Blizzard Korea was working with JackiePrime and LSPrime to import and modify GSL maps for the ladder. Therefore, I think the mapmaker should already have an approval on this change.
4. We really don't know how the change will really affect the game until we try the maps for at least hundreds times. I think we should play the map for a month first then gather feedback and send it to Blizz instead of whining right before the map is really played. That's all well and good. However, what this argues for more than anything are League-based maps, where each League uses a different map pool.
Play across leagues would make this really weird. I think a better alternative to your suggestion is to work in bigger maps for everyone (which is what blizz is doing, I wish they wouldn't rockify them while doing so though).
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United States4126 Posts
I'm liking the new resource comparison at the topright.
Looking forward on playing the new Shakuras, looks interesting.
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oh blizzard you are so funny with your disposable rocks
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I'm hoping the addition of the TA is to test the waters of accepting a non-blizzard map into the pool. An even better follow-up would be Crevasse or Terminus directly replacing Delta. It's just too boring to have that map veto'd for month after month.
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Yeah, Delta is totally a crap map. Let's add in the Terminus as well as the GSTL new map Dual Sight.
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Kind of disappointed that they caved and changed backwater.
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oh sweet they did what i was hoping they would do to backwater gulch.
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the new shakuras looks awsome, the back door was the only thing i didnt like about the map and now its gone! dont understand why they didnt take out slag pits, delta or crap station, nearly everyone vetos them anyway. the third's rocks on tal' darim are going to be annoying, i remember playing on the early test versions which had the rocks at the third with a friend. the rocks pretty much made him (he was zerg) have to hidden expo to another starting location and forced him to go muta ling over roach hydra
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wish they could have picked one of the better GSL maps. maybe one where terran cant siege your expo from the low ground and shuttle marines up via medivacs, steppes of war style...
also slag pits, backwater gulch, and delta are still terribad maps. no reason for them to be in the pool at all. as much as i like the advantage i get on scrap station, i feel like its time to phase that map out too.
tbh im saying the same thing as everyone else. blizzard is bad at making maps and they need to stop. Iccup, GSL, and MLG are all doing a better job, yet blizzard refuses to back off. allowing 1 GSL map is a start though.
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On March 22 2011 15:24 freeto wrote:
wish they could have picked one of the better GSL maps. maybe one where terran cant siege your expo from the low ground and shuttle marines up via medivacs, steppes of war style...
also slag pits, backwater gulch, and delta are still terribad maps. no reason for them to be in the pool at all. as much as i like the advantage i get on scrap station, i feel like its time to phase that map out too.
tbh im saying the same thing as everyone else. blizzard is bad at making maps and they need to stop. Iccup, GSL, and MLG are all doing a better job, yet blizzard refuses to back off. allowing 1 GSL map is a start though.
I don't think MLG made any maps.
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First time I am happy with maps! YES Shak is fixed, Tal Darim Altar is in the pool, the world is fine, I found love, I feel great! I only have to veto slag pits and dq, maybe that desert map but I find it interesting still, and they fixed the natural.
EDIT: Oh god they added rocks to Tal Darim 3rd.... Just when I was about to forgive Blizzard....
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Has anyone played on the new Shakuraus yet? Do you still get close spawns?
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Shakuras plateau is a god map, and good change! let me try it and other maps out tonite!
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whyyyy the rocks on taldarim, blizzard. no one likes your rocks.
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blizzard... WHATS WITH THE ROCKS
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It's awesome to see Tal'Darim Altar finally get into the map pool. It has produced great games thus far, and it should continue to produce great games on the ladder (as long as Protoss players don't 4gate me lol). The destructible rocks are a bit annoying, but considering that the 3rd base is now a full expansion with more minerals and a 2nd gas, I think it's a reasonable tradeoff ensuring that players can't abuse the easy expo too much.
The Shakuras Plateau changes are REALLY interesting to see.
Comparing the new one:
+ Show Spoiler +
with the old one
+ Show Spoiler +
There are NUMEROUS changes to the map.
The removal of the main-to-main rocks and ramps is a huge deal. No longer can Terrans do a formidable marine+tank death-push in that corridor towards a Zerg base. No longer will the rest of the map's geography give way to entire games being played out in that simple strip of land. The change is an amazing fix to the most blatant flaw of an otherwise amazing map.
Also, it's interesting to see the tall grass now fully surround the Xel'Naga Watchtowers in a change that is consistent with the other vision-blocker changes in the other maps.
The rocks between 3rd bases have now been removed. In their place, there are now ramps and rocks that lead to the former main-to-main corridor. This should affect the safety of these 3rds quite a bit now that there are 2 places to attack it from. However, the minerals and gases have been moved to hug the mains, which now have an extra piece of land jutting out into the main field that also protects these 3rds. It should be interesting to see Protoss players use it to get a pylon a bit farther out into the field or Terran players protect their 3rds a bit better with Siege Tanks. It should also be interesting to see that no longer can the 3rd base be so easily besieged upon from the main-to-main corridor.
I haven't played on Backwater Gulch at all since I preemptively downvoted it after hearing so many negative comments about it. I may reconsider my decision.
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Germany1287 Posts
Tuesday morning at the Blizzard HQ:
-"Hey, boss, look at this map. It's awesome, can we put it into the ladder pool?"
-"No."
-"But it's so good, the player and community feedback was superb, they love this map!"
-"No."
-"But they are even using it in the GSL, you know, the biggest tournament in the world!"
-"No."
-"But EU and NA players speak really highly of it, they also use it in some prized online tournaments!"
-"No."
-"And if I put destructible rocks on it?"
-"Sounds good, put it online."
And that's pretty much there is to it.
The Backwater changes doesn't really do anything, it still is a bad map, frankly. The Shakuras change is a bit weird, I don't know, it has to be experienced first hand before you can talk about it, I guess. But I have the feeling that these changes are made based upon 5-minute-decisions instead of actual looking around and listening to the playerbase.
I do wonder, tho, whether the online cups (Competo, Go4SC2, Star2.org) will stick with the proper GSL version of Tal'Darim. All the different map versions are giving me a hard time entering games into TLPD already.
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People bitching about rocks make me laugh. They change almost nothing. Their effect on the game is almost negligible. I've never had a problem taking down rocks before I'd normally get a third. Can you remember a time when this has happened on LT? I can't.
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So is taldarim altar, is it just the screenshot or is it actually smaller then on GSL?
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It's still 5 small, 4 medium and 1 large map. The lack of large maps is weird.
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On March 22 2011 14:50 SlapMySalami wrote:
oh blizzard you are so funny with your disposable rocks
damn, tolate, This :p
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Wow it feels like they listened to exactly what I said when I posted on blizz forums... We should keep making our opinions heard; it really matters :o.
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I wonder why aren't they removing the shitty maps tho. Gulch may have a chance with the upgrade, but DQ and slag have no justification for staying in pool. Also taldarim rock change is lame. I hate how putting rocks to 3rd is always such antizerg move since they have the hardest time to kill them if opponent takes fast expo. Counter to FE is either to allin or take faster 3rd, but how does one take 3rd that requires 10+ lings to hack it for minutes?
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after loseing 3 games as zerg on black water tonight. i am super duper happy to see this ramp change
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Awesome changes.
I hope they take out typhoon and slag pits and switch them with other GSL maps.
But blizzard is seriously crazy with those rocks, they just feel satisfaction adding rocks.
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Cinder Fortress looks nice, except the middle. It seems bad for big fights?
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On March 22 2011 16:42 Alpina wrote:
Awesome changes.
I hope they take out typhoon and slag pits and switch them with other GSL maps.
But blizzard is seriously crazy with those rocks, they just feel satisfaction adding rocks.
dont think they wil switch typhon, as it is on the GSL mappool aswell
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I love this. Good job Blizz. Even adding rocks at the third of Tal'darim doesn't bother me. Its more like a watermark from you guys at this point "This map is pretty nice..but where can we add some more rocks?"
And heres hoping they finally remove Crap Station. It might have been an ok map compared to everything else that was in the map pool in retail, but as Blizz is adding on better and better maps, it only becomes clear how bad the map really is.
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Love the Shakuras change. Disappointed at picking the worst GSL map IMO. I mean I like the changes they did to it... but... it's just so damn big.
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i'm happy that they're adding gsl maps, but why do you have to add your goddamn rocks at every map?
it's not fun to have ~10 rocks on every map.
it may be a unique feature on 1 or 2 maps, but not on freaking every map in the pool denying 3rds or leaving backdoors in your base / natural.........................
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Really nice changes.
Love to see backdoor rocks on Shakuras being removed and being placed near third exp. I think zergs will benefit from this change, especially mid-game when rocks fall down and distances between bases are ridiculously short.
On Tal'Darim, I don't mind about rocks on third. Placing rocks in each and every map is not the best way to balance/modify them but w/e...
Keep up the good work Blizzard 
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definitely love to see blizzard move towards the right direction here with these choices hopefully they will continue to keep improving the map pool and balancing maps.
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Ooh! The changes look pretty good.
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Nice, if only they removed DQ from pool it would be perfect.
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Positive move overall, but seriously adding rocks to the Tal'Adrim 3rd wtf?
It just takes a good map and makes it slightly less good. For no reason.
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Russian Federation304 Posts
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why put rocks on tal darim blizzard....why
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Baby steps to perfection.
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On March 22 2011 18:02 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
why put rocks on tal darim blizzard....why
Yup thats my only gripe as well . but as long as the size is the same I can live with it. Glad Blizzard added the best GSL map imo to the map pool. Can't wait to play it tomorrow
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I might ladder again when I don't have to study as hard!
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Well this makes things easy. Backwater, Typhon, and Slag all get vetod. Why dont they just take these pos maps out? Maybe the new backwater will be better, but I thought that map was absolutely horrible before.
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Nice changes to Gulch and Shakuras Plateau, but why on earth is blizzard convinced that rocks belong onto expansions?
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On March 22 2011 18:08 Helios.Star wrote:
Well this makes things easy. Backwater, Typhon, and Slag all get vetod. Why dont they just take these pos maps out?
Because not everyone hates those maps. The GSL put Typhon in the map pool, and I think it's arguably the best Blizz map. Backwater is improved, and there are players who like that kind of map. Slag is....funky. Catz says it's ludicrously pro-Zerg, by flipping the game from getting expos to denying expos. If nothing else, it's an interesting experiment.
Even the maps that weren't popular or fun taught us useful things by existing. There was a period where people hated Xel'Naga Caverns and loved Delta, after all.
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Typhon is probably the only good of those "new maps" that Blizzard introduced during 1.2. The other two, Backwater Gulch and Slag, is for some reason so weird looking and too much favouring spawning locations instead of skill.
So yeah, I will still veto Backwater gulch and Slag Pits. Tal'darim Altar is surely a nice add for the mix and it makes me personally happy to see that Blizzard atleast tries to listen community (bunch of complaints and arguments why there should be GSL maps also). THANK YOU!
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Russian Federation304 Posts
On March 22 2011 18:20 kazansky wrote:
but why on earth is blizzard convinced that rocks belong onto expansions?
cuz Z can take fast 3rd base for free. P and T cant...
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Interesting stuff. It's nice to have the backdoors removed on Shakuras -- those were seriously a pain to deal with, especially against Terran. I highly doubt I'll ever prioritize the "middle" bases against Terran, though -- siege tanks on the Xel'Naga towers are going to be ludicrously powerful. Still, being able to freely expand up the sides should offset that somewhat.
And of course I can't complain about the change to the natural on Backwater. I don't really mind the map as it is now aside from the difficulty of holding that spot, so yay!
I'm disappointed to see Slag Pits remain in the pool. I don't like to write off maps as terrible, but damn, that map is terrible.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On March 22 2011 18:35 insolentrus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 18:20 kazansky wrote:
but why on earth is blizzard convinced that rocks belong onto expansions? cuz Z can take fast 3rd base for free. P and T cant...
Lame excuse. I would rather have zerg start getting a quick 3rd and let the other races think of strategies to counter it instead of completely shutting it down. I'm a terran btw.
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So good, Blizzard always listens to the community
I like that the 3rd on Taldarim Altar has rocks, but not so sure about the double gas, we'll see.
New Shakuras looks sweet as well :>
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10 pages of whining, really? Week after week you wanted gsl maps and shakuras , now you got them, they removed the back rocks in shakuras and still only QQ.
So taldarim altar LE is a shitty map only because there's one set of extra rocks?
You always find a way to complain.
I my opinion, these changes are great! Shakuras was my favourite map anyways and backwater was unplayable before, now you can at least expo.
just give blizz a bit time, I'm sure they will add more good maps until all maps are perfect
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Oh wow!
Seems like Blzzard finally found a map pool which is a compromise for mos of the players and due to the fact that u are able to vote down 3 maps, the pool should be fine for everyone (not just in theory).
I'm more the kind of harrass oriented player and still having troubles in lategame especially on very big maps. But since there are some smaller maps too this should be fine. Still like the choices for the big maps very very much.
Let's get it on!
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great changes all together
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This brings a tear to my eye. Thank you, Blizzard.
+ Show Spoiler +You better leave Shakuras in the ladder pool from now on >.>
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Awesome changes, I can't wait for the patch to go live on EU.
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Love that the map pool is bigger, love that backwater is better. Glad they added taldarim instead of terminus. Sad that shakuras was messed with, the rocks made it interesting
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Wow. This is amazing news. Can't wait for the paaaaaatch!
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On March 22 2011 18:49 OmegaKnetus wrote:
10 pages of whining, really? Week after week you wanted gsl maps and shakuras , now you got them, they removed the back rocks in shakuras and still only QQ.
So taldarim altar LE is a shitty map only because there's one set of extra rocks?
You always find a way to complain.
I my opinion, these changes are great! Shakuras was my favourite map anyways and backwater was unplayable before, now you can at least expo.
just give blizz a bit time, I'm sure they will add more good maps until all maps are perfect
no its not a shitty map because of it. but idont get why they cant just get tal darim in the version its played in the gsl...
and adding rocks is like the main thing blizzard is doing
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The new Shakuras looks interesting, might be a really nice map!
And ofc really happy with TalDarim.
Still dissapointed about the fact they keep maps such as Slag Pits, Delta Quadrant and Backwater Gulch on there. I assume they'll be removed and we'll get Terminus LE and Crevasse LE sooner or later though!
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On March 22 2011 13:16 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 13:09 raf3776 wrote:On March 22 2011 13:07 Hobokinz wrote:On March 22 2011 13:04 raf3776 wrote:On March 22 2011 12:58 Hobokinz wrote:
-_- Why add rocks to the third on Taldarim? It's nice to see Blizz listening, but if they just take GSL maps and add rocks anywhere they want then I still think they will fall out to iCCUP or something in the future. They added more minerals and an extra gas i think. So if they didnt have the rocks it would be to OP. How is that OP? Every race can expand there so it's not like if Toss expands there then they will be way too strong. It's just annoying that Blizz thinks that they need to add rock to stop an expo from being taken too early. A zerg getting a super quick 3rd with double gas would be super strong. As well as a toss getting a super fast 3rd would be ridiculous as well. Its still fast but not as fast. Active scouting should allow you to punish such insanely greedy builds. Why ruin Tal'Darim with these rocks?, it makes no sense, the map was perfect without them. I still don't understand blizz' obsesion with people not making thirds, that's kinda the moment in which games start getting the most interesting.
You can't really punish greedy builds on that map as Z/T because it's so huge.
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I can't believe they changed Tal Darim?
What could possibly motivate that, it's like they're saying "Well okay we'll implent 1 GSL map, but we have to make non-sense changes just because otherwise we had nothing to do with this map". Ridiculous.
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Shakuras changes are really interesting, so far I like them a lot
But wtf Blizzard, now you added Tal'Darim which is really cool... but then you change stuff significantly so first of all we can't play the same strats the pros play on this map and second the pros still can't train this map on ladder... what's the purpose, really...
(if they made it smaller at least... that would have been a logical change since even the mapmaker himself thinks it is too big)
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On March 22 2011 20:35 meRz wrote:
I can't believe they changed Tal Darim?
What could possibly motivate that, it's like they're saying "Well okay we'll implent 1 GSL map, but we have to make non-sense changes just because otherwise we had nothing to do with this map". Ridiculous.
Because they're catering to players of all divisions, not just the master league. A lesser player won't understand the intricacies of taking a 1 gas, 750 per mineral patch expansion.
People are acting as if they've completely ruined the map, which just isn't true. You should be happy they implemented a map that's actually good instead of crying because of a small change.
You can still play the original map. It's called a "custom game," have you heard of it?
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Cool changes, shot blizz :D
Especially excited about tal darim alter.. that map looks sick.
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I'm confused, so many people don't veto DQ but Typhon?
for me (Zerg) it's pretty obvious: I'm gonna veto Slag, Backwater and DQ
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On March 22 2011 20:40 SolHeiM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 20:35 meRz wrote:
I can't believe they changed Tal Darim?
What could possibly motivate that, it's like they're saying "Well okay we'll implent 1 GSL map, but we have to make non-sense changes just because otherwise we had nothing to do with this map". Ridiculous. Because they're catering to players of all divisions, not just the master league. A lesser player won't understand the intricacies of taking a 1 gas, 750 per mineral patch expansion. People are acting as if they've completely ruined the map, which just isn't true. You should be happy they implemented a map that's actually good instead of crying because of a small change. You can still play the original map. It's called a "custom game," have you heard of it?
No please enlighten me to what this phenomen so called "custom game" is?! Lay off the cocky attitude :<
The changes makes no sense, catering to players of all divisions? Well they're not really catering to anyone right now because believe it or not, even Bronze/Silver/Whatever plays tournaments and they use the GSL version. You're gonna be laddering and making builds/timings/whatnot on the ladder version and then you're screwed if you wind up in a tournament thats using the GSL version.
"You should be happy they implemented a map that's actually good instead of crying because of a small change." Wait so I should be happy that they took a perfectly fine map and changed it just for the sake of????
No.
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On March 22 2011 20:46 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 20:40 SolHeiM wrote:On March 22 2011 20:35 meRz wrote:
I can't believe they changed Tal Darim?
What could possibly motivate that, it's like they're saying "Well okay we'll implent 1 GSL map, but we have to make non-sense changes just because otherwise we had nothing to do with this map". Ridiculous. Because they're catering to players of all divisions, not just the master league. A lesser player won't understand the intricacies of taking a 1 gas, 750 per mineral patch expansion. People are acting as if they've completely ruined the map, which just isn't true. You should be happy they implemented a map that's actually good instead of crying because of a small change. You can still play the original map. It's called a "custom game," have you heard of it? No please enlighten me to what this phenomen so called "custom game" is?! Lay off the cocky attitude :< The changes makes no sense, catering to players of all divisions? Well they're not really catering to anyone right now because believe it or not, even Bronze/Silver/Whatever plays tournaments and they use the GSL version. You're gonna be laddering and making builds/timings/whatnot on the ladder version and then you're screwed if you wind up in a tournament thats using the GSL version. "You should be happy they implemented a map that's actually good instead of crying because of a small change." Wait so I should be happy that they took a perfectly fine map and changed it just for the sake of???? No.
I'm sorry, but in what world do you live in where Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum practice build orders and regularly practice on the GSL maps? The majority of the players do not actually hang out on this website and they play whatever maps are available on the ladder. If there is all of a sudden a complicated mechanic that isn't consistent with the rest of the ladder maps, the lesser players won't understand the reason.
You don't seem to realize that the majority of the players in this game are actually not in Masters League.
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On March 22 2011 20:53 SolHeiM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 20:46 meRz wrote:On March 22 2011 20:40 SolHeiM wrote:On March 22 2011 20:35 meRz wrote:
I can't believe they changed Tal Darim?
What could possibly motivate that, it's like they're saying "Well okay we'll implent 1 GSL map, but we have to make non-sense changes just because otherwise we had nothing to do with this map". Ridiculous. Because they're catering to players of all divisions, not just the master league. A lesser player won't understand the intricacies of taking a 1 gas, 750 per mineral patch expansion. People are acting as if they've completely ruined the map, which just isn't true. You should be happy they implemented a map that's actually good instead of crying because of a small change. You can still play the original map. It's called a "custom game," have you heard of it? No please enlighten me to what this phenomen so called "custom game" is?! Lay off the cocky attitude :< The changes makes no sense, catering to players of all divisions? Well they're not really catering to anyone right now because believe it or not, even Bronze/Silver/Whatever plays tournaments and they use the GSL version. You're gonna be laddering and making builds/timings/whatnot on the ladder version and then you're screwed if you wind up in a tournament thats using the GSL version. "You should be happy they implemented a map that's actually good instead of crying because of a small change." Wait so I should be happy that they took a perfectly fine map and changed it just for the sake of???? No. I'm sorry, but in what world do you live in where Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum practice build orders and regularly practice on the GSL maps? The majority of the players do not actually hang out on this website and they play whatever maps are available on the ladder. If there is all of a sudden a complicated mechanic that isn't consistent with the rest of the ladder maps, the lesser players won't understand the reason. You don't seem to realize that the majority of the players in this game are actually not in Masters League.
Uhm, by your logic then. It still shouldn't make any difference seeing how they'll face players of equal skill and none of them will understand it, thus they don't take damage of it anyhow. I don't see the reason babysitting bronze/silver/gold/plat to this extent. As long as you're equally matched it shouldn't play any huge role. Also, why should they be "protected" from things like these instead of introduced to it? I'd say it's a lot better to just introduce the mechanic, let them hear about it/figure it out themselves and learn from it. No instead we dumb the map down because obviously those bronze players out there sure would be confused!
Also your first paragraph, that's exactly my point! These guys don't do custom games and practice GSL maps, so they'll only be comfortable playing at the ladder version, whereas in any tournament i'd be really surprised if they weren't using the GSL one over this one.
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On March 22 2011 20:53 SolHeiM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 20:46 meRz wrote:On March 22 2011 20:40 SolHeiM wrote:On March 22 2011 20:35 meRz wrote:
I can't believe they changed Tal Darim?
What could possibly motivate that, it's like they're saying "Well okay we'll implent 1 GSL map, but we have to make non-sense changes just because otherwise we had nothing to do with this map". Ridiculous. Because they're catering to players of all divisions, not just the master league. A lesser player won't understand the intricacies of taking a 1 gas, 750 per mineral patch expansion. People are acting as if they've completely ruined the map, which just isn't true. You should be happy they implemented a map that's actually good instead of crying because of a small change. You can still play the original map. It's called a "custom game," have you heard of it? No please enlighten me to what this phenomen so called "custom game" is?! Lay off the cocky attitude :< The changes makes no sense, catering to players of all divisions? Well they're not really catering to anyone right now because believe it or not, even Bronze/Silver/Whatever plays tournaments and they use the GSL version. You're gonna be laddering and making builds/timings/whatnot on the ladder version and then you're screwed if you wind up in a tournament thats using the GSL version. "You should be happy they implemented a map that's actually good instead of crying because of a small change." Wait so I should be happy that they took a perfectly fine map and changed it just for the sake of???? No. I'm sorry, but in what world do you live in where Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum practice build orders and regularly practice on the GSL maps? The majority of the players do not actually hang out on this website and they play whatever maps are available on the ladder. If there is all of a sudden a complicated mechanic that isn't consistent with the rest of the ladder maps, the lesser players won't understand the reason. You don't seem to realize that the majority of the players in this game are actually not in Masters League.
Who cares?
The majority of soccer players aren't in Liverpool or Chelsea. They still play on grass, use same dimensions and the same goals and the same footballs.
It is a nonsensical change and there's no underlying principle to motivate it.
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Finally, an encouraging step towards the right direction.
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Lol Blizzard introducing a GSL map but placing rocks onto the third....I might kill a kitten today.
Yes, I think it's gonna happen. Oh my, the stupidity, it's beyond me.
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On March 22 2011 21:05 ParasitJonte wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 20:53 SolHeiM wrote:On March 22 2011 20:46 meRz wrote:On March 22 2011 20:40 SolHeiM wrote:On March 22 2011 20:35 meRz wrote:
I can't believe they changed Tal Darim?
What could possibly motivate that, it's like they're saying "Well okay we'll implent 1 GSL map, but we have to make non-sense changes just because otherwise we had nothing to do with this map". Ridiculous. Because they're catering to players of all divisions, not just the master league. A lesser player won't understand the intricacies of taking a 1 gas, 750 per mineral patch expansion. People are acting as if they've completely ruined the map, which just isn't true. You should be happy they implemented a map that's actually good instead of crying because of a small change. You can still play the original map. It's called a "custom game," have you heard of it? No please enlighten me to what this phenomen so called "custom game" is?! Lay off the cocky attitude :< The changes makes no sense, catering to players of all divisions? Well they're not really catering to anyone right now because believe it or not, even Bronze/Silver/Whatever plays tournaments and they use the GSL version. You're gonna be laddering and making builds/timings/whatnot on the ladder version and then you're screwed if you wind up in a tournament thats using the GSL version. "You should be happy they implemented a map that's actually good instead of crying because of a small change." Wait so I should be happy that they took a perfectly fine map and changed it just for the sake of???? No. I'm sorry, but in what world do you live in where Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum practice build orders and regularly practice on the GSL maps? The majority of the players do not actually hang out on this website and they play whatever maps are available on the ladder. If there is all of a sudden a complicated mechanic that isn't consistent with the rest of the ladder maps, the lesser players won't understand the reason. You don't seem to realize that the majority of the players in this game are actually not in Masters League. Who cares? The majority of soccer players aren't in Liverpool or Chelsea. They still play on grass, use same dimensions and the same goals and the same footballs. It is a nonsensical change and there's no underlying principle to motivate it.
How can you compare a sport that has been around for hundreds of years to a video game that hasn't even been out for a year?
There are large and small rinks in Ice Hockey, in Sweden we have larger rinks than they do in the NHL (or it's the other way around, I don't really know), for some reason. The ladder and whatever maps they play on tournaments are different because the average player doesn't want or care about the intricacies a "tournament map" according to our standards should have.
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am i the only one thinking that tanks are gna rape my mineral line now on shakuras?
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1000 posts and still can't use the upload image feature? Nice map changes though... Definitely a fan.
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On March 22 2011 20:40 SolHeiM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 20:35 meRz wrote:
I can't believe they changed Tal Darim?
What could possibly motivate that, it's like they're saying "Well okay we'll implent 1 GSL map, but we have to make non-sense changes just because otherwise we had nothing to do with this map". Ridiculous. Because they're catering to players of all divisions, not just the master league. A lesser player won't understand the intricacies of taking a 1 gas, 750 per mineral patch expansion. People are acting as if they've completely ruined the map, which just isn't true. You should be happy they implemented a map that's actually good instead of crying because of a small change. You can still play the original map. It's called a "custom game," have you heard of it?
Yea I'm sure all low level players would have been unable to play a game on that map out of sheer confusion at a base with less minerals....seriously low level player =/= fucking retard its not hard to do a cost / benefit analysis of taking a base thats easier but has less money.
And yes it's a minor change but I'm just really annoyed with the idea of a bunch of unbelievably horrible map makers who delivered gems like DQ, steppes, jungle, blistering, desert oasis, slag pits, and backwater gulch thinking they should be modifying maps made by people who are clearly 1000x better at map making.
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I like the changes to shakuras - it's got a bit more flanking area now, rather than the crazy backdoor push junk.
@Tal'darim, I really don't understand why blizzard feels ALL BASES MUST BE 8MIN+2GAS.
Or why well defended thirds should be blocked by rocks, for that matter. It was a better map before they touched it, and now it's just got an asston of resources and promotes turtling on 3base rather than "2 and a half easy bases easy to defend, but if you can you'd prefer taking an external third"
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A lot of people are being unnecessarily negative here. These changes are 100% a step in the right direction and I'm pretty surprised they listened to our complaints.
It is obviously still not perfect but damn people, please try to be happy when something good happens.
I really hope they put Terminus RE in the mappool at some point though. Love this map.
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I really don't understand why Blizzard would take a GREAT map and deliberately make it worse. God if their reason is to limit the complexity for lower leagues then KEEP THE MAP IN LOWER LEAGUES!
On a positive note I'm glad they kept in SP, and the changes look to be an improvement.
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Some weeks ago I could never imagine Blizzard adding a GSL map to the map pool, so I'm very pleasantly surprised.
With so many maps, I'd really appreciate a 4th veto though.
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On March 22 2011 21:42 setzer wrote:
I really don't understand why Blizzard would take a GREAT map and deliberately make it worse. God if their reason is to limit the complexity for lower leagues then KEEP THE MAP IN LOWER LEAGUES!
Indeed it's getting to a point where the claim that Blizz is intentionally screwing with us gets more and more grounds....I mean, the mapmakers at Blizz "can't" possibly so ignorant/stupid thinking that this would be actually an improvement? Is this humanly possible even?
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I think it's pretty unbelievable how negative some people are being. The Map pool has got better and yet people are still complaining.
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On March 22 2011 21:47 Candles wrote:
I think it's pretty unbelievable how negative some people are being. The Map pool has got better and yet people are still complaining.
If somebody punches you in the face, are you thankful if he pays you a drink afterwards?
The map pool is still polluted by maps like slag pits and delta quadrant, and backwater gulch is still awful, despite being a bit better now.
The only good thing about adding tal darim altar is, that Blizz has obviously started to realize, that they are actually incapable of making good maps and leave it up to the community. Which is a good thing, but pretty much the only good thing about the current mappool.
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On March 22 2011 21:18 Dezire wrote:
am i the only one thinking that tanks are gna rape my mineral line now on shakuras?
You know the terran now has to elevator-drop his units down to the low ground between the mains? Or go the long way round? Since the first thing a Terran did when doing the main-main push was to take down the rocks, I can't see this being worse than how it was. It's much harder for the terran to dart forward with some marines.
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Can we have Terminus as well?
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currently the best map in my pov : Tal Darim Altar, even against zerg i hae NO problem at ALL
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now just remove backwater and slag pits and put in terminus and xelnaga fortress/crevasse
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Sweet. Even if they're slow to act, Blizzard do hear our prayers. Occasionally. Thank you. <3
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Current mappool is pretty nice. Not only because of tal darim altar, but also because shattered temple and peaks are pretty good new maps. Also, i like how they changed shakuras.
Of course there are some maps left that are not that awesome. But compared to the mappool 2-3 months ago, the average map qualitiy is much higher.
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On March 22 2011 21:50 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 21:47 Candles wrote:
I think it's pretty unbelievable how negative some people are being. The Map pool has got better and yet people are still complaining.
If somebody punches you in the face, are you thankful if he pays you a drink afterwards? The map pool is still polluted by maps like slag pits and delta quadrant, and backwater gulch is still awful, despite being a bit better now. The only good thing about adding tal darim altar is, that Blizz has obviously started to realize, that they are actually incapable of making good maps and leave it up to the community. Which is a good thing, but pretty much the only good thing about the current mappool.
That's a pretty disingenuous analogy. The current situation is more like Blizzard punching you in the face at a bar, then apologizing and offering to buy you a beer and you refusing. They returned Shakuras without the Terran Hallway of Doom, put in a GSL map with a tweak that doesn't matter much (though low armor rocks would have been better), and put in several much larger maps as well as fixing up Backwater Gulch. Not to mention that recently they removed Blistering Sands and Lost Temple, two maps that showed pretty bad imbalance. I think the situation is improving.
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They actually added rocks to a GSL map...
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Sweden33719 Posts
Changes to Taldarim and Shakuras are complete jokes.
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On March 22 2011 23:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Changes to Taldarim and Shakuras are complete jokes.
What, specifically, bothers you about the Shakuras changes?
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I agree with Jinro completely.First of all, Taldarim is a GSL map, and i dont think blizzard should be touching it, i think they are just to impose their will.Shakuras has a VERY easy to defend natural for all 3 races, and your third was not hard to defend either, which is why i thought the rocks provided a opportunity to punish FE, now you guys tell me, Zergs will 14 hatch,Terrans will 1-2raxFE,and Protoss' will FE which ever way they like. I almost feel that doing to this Shakuras makes the map very similar to all of the new ladder maps, encouraging long macro games.
Clearly blizzard has started to listen to the community by adding Tal Darim, and fixing awful maps like Backwater Gulch.My question is why won't they add more GSL maps, they do give everyone an option to veto 3 maps, so why dont they add more?
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Just scanned the thread, don't know if it has been mentioned.
But on Shakuras they changed the position of both the minerals and the gas of the 3rd expansions. Now minerals and gas are directly beside the ledge of your main-base, makes it much harde if not impossible to air-harass (or harass in general).
Also since Blizz stated they wanted to have 3 big macro-maps in the pool, I was really hoping for at least 2 GSL maps. I would've bet my SC2-key that terminus re would go in, considering that it is used in so many tournaments already. Furthermore I would've loved to see Crevasse, since this is - in my personal opinion - the best of the large GSL maps.
I was sure they wouldn't even consider adding xel naga fortress and dual sight, although those two are WAY better than slag pits and backdoor gulch.
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It's possible they actually made shakura's worse for ZvP as now it's even easier for protoss to just turtle on 3-4 bases and max
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Does anyone recall this comment from Blizzard on why Shakuras was removed:
4)Shakuras Plateau
This map we decided to remove for a different reason. There isn't a huge problem with this map, but we felt there aren't enough interesting features of this map. The natural expansion is easy to take and defend; there are only two possible attack paths only one of which is generally used, and main bases aren't easy to harass. For a change, we wanted to replace this relatively plain map with something new.
Ok so let me get this straight. The map was removed because there was only two possible attack paths and it had boring features, yet with these changes whether you're side-by-side or cross-map, there's now quite literally one attack path, right through the middle, and the 12/6 positions are essentially completely useless at this point. With the changes they made now what they really wanted to say earlier was "Zerg has a hard time holding a tank/marine/medivac/turret push through the backdoor when in side-by-side positions, so we removed it". That's exactly what these changes are screaming because they completely contradict Blizzard's report as to why it was removed in the first place with the last update.
As for Taldarim, why Blizzard has such an obsession with forcing certain gameplay on a map via destructible objects with SC2 is beyond me. Can they not release a new map without saying "you can't take this as your first FE until you have enough units to destroy it". Why do they keep forcing this on us? It's driviing me nutts. If I want to risk taking my FE at what would be the natural third, I shouldn't have to wait around to destroy the debris. If i want to take the risk, let me take it. If I pay for it then lesson learned, if I get away with it, then I have a slight advantage over my opponent because they failed to scout it, etc and then can take my second with them thinking that's my first expansion.
Yes there are some welcome changes here, no doubt about that, but this obsession with destrucible x at expansions and some real head scratching changes to what was a good map to begin with just doesn't make sense imo.
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dont get the taldarim change.
there is a reason why its not a full 3rd base. and rocks dont change anything about that.
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On March 22 2011 23:22 syllogism wrote:
It's possible they actually made shakura's worse for ZvP as now it's even easier for protoss to just turtle on 3-4 bases and max
Don't think so. As of now, I would've always destroyed my own backdoor rocks, walled off the big ramp near my natural with a billion cannons (after my nexus first I always had some in place already) and take my third on the smiley-face-expo. Even if this meant expanding towards the zerg, this didin't matter with colossus/stalker/sentry. Now it's actually not that easy to take a third and defend the back of your main vs mutas/drops....at least it seems that way, have to play first of course.
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Revoke the taldarim changes!
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Oh wow! Love Tal'Darim Altar! Looking forward to some nice interesting games now on the new maps. :D Happy face :D
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Are these from the US server or SEA server, I saw your location was Singapore.
If they are from US, that's cool, I hope they take out scrap and put in crevasse or Terminus, because everyone has it thumbed except for zergs, and having a pretty much JUST ZvZ map isn't the best
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Gotta love the new change to Taldarim.... Imagine if you will:
*Zerg sees Terran FE*
Zerg: Terran FEing. I could all in... nah, I like macro, plus the rush distance.. Got it.. I'll take my 3rd
*Sees Rocks at 3rd*
Zerg: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot???
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On March 22 2011 23:22 syllogism wrote:
It's possible they actually made shakura's worse for ZvP as now it's even easier for protoss to just turtle on 3-4 bases and max
It seems like a spine crawler wall might be effective on the new shakuras. Maybe zerg could also turtle so that they can get enough infestors to counter the deathball? There are sidepaths but a ling on either side could warn the zerg.
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Could we get some updated screenshots of the Shakuras Plateau changes? The screenshots were all broken.
-Thanks
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Um... WTF? Those shakuras changes are crazy... Idk man, seems like time to just get a new map in there (Terminus RE anyone?)
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On March 22 2011 23:37 Keitzer wrote:
Um... WTF? Those shakuras changes are crazy... Idk man, seems like time to just get a new map in there (Terminus RE anyone?)
Yeah, but do we really want Blizzard touching anymore maps? Because, you know they are going to mess with them before they throw them in.
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I cant view the pictures. It says my bandwith is exceeded.
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Ahahah that change to Tal'darim altar really made me laugh. Those rocks sumerize Blizzard's view about map features really well. And I would have prefered to see Terminus Re.
Well I guess its better that nothing.
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On March 22 2011 12:58 TERRANLOL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 12:54 majestouch wrote:
awesome! they managed to make shakuras plateau even worse (now even more to be unable to attack into a terran/protoss 3rd at the 12/6 o clock bases.
moreover, they added in rocks on tal darim altar to the 3rd base, so when the terran or protoss 15cc/nexus, you are going to be 2base vs 2base for the first 10minutes or will have to expo into the middle of nowhere, hope it doesn't get spotted, or just sac it and the workers at it. damn blizzard always had been great at making maps for this game.
p.s. you'll notice macro zergs have 10~ supply worth of units for the first 10min if the conditions apply. You are so negative. Lol. 1. They added shakuras back in. 2. They removed the thing in Shakuras that zerg players complained about the most. 3. They added one of the GSL maps DAMNIT BLIZZARD WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!!
did you not read what i typed?
they made shakuras worse (read my first post)
yes they did, and they made it even worse (read my first post)
they added the first version of the gsl map which was awfully imbalanced (read my first post)
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any1 has sites which loads images for unlimited bandwith??
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Shakuras plateu back in !! :D
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On March 22 2011 23:51 justiceknight wrote:
any1 has sites which loads images for unlimited bandwith??
http://imgur.com/
this one?
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The reason why I'm being so negative is, that I don't expect changes to the mappool for a really....REALLY long time.
Wouldn't be surprised at all if this setup stayed the same for the whole season 2. Unless there are bugs of course.
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Yay Taldarim Alter.
A lot of your images in the original post are broken by the way.
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I was so happy to read that shakuras and taldarim, two of the maps i want most are in the ladder pool. Then only to find out they added destructible rocks #"%&#¤"! rocks Well.....It is still an improvement,but I wish that they would let a map that has no drocks blocking expansions into the map pool.
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Im so confused, are these maps/changes live? Or did he just decide to edit the maps, and make a wishlist thread?
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Teamliquid should have a mini-game where you have to destroy some rocks before you can make a new post. Like the "post" button is covered up by a pile of rubble and you have to click on it 50 times before you can post anything. I feel like this would make posting more fun to do and to watch.
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I love the Blackwater Gulch change, and hope that eventually they give Slag Pits the same treatment. Shakuras change is weird... having only one main attack path by ground is going to make for some rather turtle-ish games. Then again, I can't really complain about blizzard making maps which encourage games to be too long at this point. Tal'Darim is going to be a fun map to ladder on. I think it's better without the rocks - and would think that by now that has been proven by the success of this map in the GSL. Evidently, Blizzard disagrees.
I'm looking forward to the new map pool. It''ll likely be the best one they've had yet. Really, people are making too much fuss about the rocks on Tal'Darim. No, they didn't need to add rocks, and GSL matches should have proven that - but they did anyway, and I'm confident that even with the rocks it'll still be one of the best (if not the best) maps on the ladder.
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On March 22 2011 20:35 meRz wrote:
I can't believe they changed Tal Darim?
What could possibly motivate that, it's like they're saying "Well okay we'll implent 1 GSL map, but we have to make non-sense changes just because otherwise we had nothing to do with this map". Ridiculous.
Exactly my thought. Wouldn't it be better if you know, we all played the same map? Then at least a part of the ladder makes sense, since no tournament seems to be interested in Blizzard own new maps.
I was like "Yeeessssssssnononononono rocks!!" and then had to laugh out loud because somehow it's really funny. Blizzard probably just took in the older map and didn't see the updated version in the GSL. Then the rocks make sense, although it's quite sad Blizzard couldn't come up with the same answer GSL mappers did with the less-minerals&gas. Which makes a ton more sense.
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On March 23 2011 00:12 Treehead wrote:
I love the Blackwater Gulch change, and hope that eventually they give Slag Pits the same treatment.
The only "treament" that can possibly save Slag Pits is complete removal. I'm totally against euthanasia, but Blizz has to relieve this poor map from its miserable existence.
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This is good for all macro players
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awesome! they managed to make shakuras plateau even worse (now even more to be unable to attack into a terran/protoss 3rd at the 12/6 o clock bases.
???
There are two sets of destructible rocks leading into the 12 and 6 o'clock expos...
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On March 23 2011 00:14 Jayson X wrote:
Then the rocks make sense
I would love to hear your explanation for this.
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They got rid of the backdoor on Shakuras?! I could cry with joy! ^_^
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Sweden33719 Posts
Shakuras changes are not completely detestable on second glance, they did open the middle up a lot... But fuck, Taldarim! -__- Way to ruin it.
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picture links broken, need to update with working links, thanks.
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Rocks on Taldarim are bad, but it could be worse.
Shakuras changes are nice.
But the worst thing is that they keep map like Delta Quadrant. Why?!? I have only 3 vetos and I have to play on this map They could at least make Backwater fixed crosspawn, that would be excellent.
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On March 22 2011 23:56 sleepingdog wrote:
The reason why I'm being so negative is, that I don't expect changes to the mappool for a really....REALLY long time.
Wouldn't be surprised at all if this setup stayed the same for the whole season 2. Unless there are bugs of course.
I doubt it. I think Blizzard is going to slowly add more GSL maps to their pool and phase out some of the more detestable maps such as SS, DQ and Slag.
They REALLY need to create separate map pools for the different ladders though. I don't know if I can stomach more dumb changes to high quality GSL maps.
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I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
I think destructible rocks are great to add on maps as features like on Crevasse where you can make chokes larger or make new attack paths which serves great tactical purposes. But why is it that Blizzard keep using them to prevent people from expanding? Tal'Darim Altar is such a great map but what the hell is purpose of limiting tactics and preventing people from taking their 3rd?
Shakuras Plateau is going to be a nightmare as well with only 1 attack path through the center.
It seems that everytime Blizzard map makers is taking two steps forward they take at least one step backwards and I cannot grasp why we have to deal with this 8 months after release. So many talented map makers figured out how to make fun, beautiful and balanced maps a long time ago, how can it be so extremely hard for Blizzard to do the same? And why is it they keep making the same mistakes over and over again even when it's being pointed out so many times that it is horrible, and why do they insist on adding a million poorly positioned destructible rocks to prevent people from expanding on every map they get their hands on?
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On March 23 2011 00:15 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:12 Treehead wrote:
I love the Blackwater Gulch change, and hope that eventually they give Slag Pits the same treatment. The only "treament" that can possibly save Slag Pits is complete removal. I'm totally against euthanasia, but Blizz has to relieve this poor map from its miserable existence.
I don't think this is necessarily true. Terminus RE is a remake of an old Blizzard map, for example. The biggest impediment to maps like Slag Pits being saved is that the people running Blizzard's mapmaking crew are not in touch with what makes the great maps great and emulating that in other maps.
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On March 22 2011 23:50 majestouch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 12:58 TERRANLOL wrote:On March 22 2011 12:54 majestouch wrote:
awesome! they managed to make shakuras plateau even worse (now even more to be unable to attack into a terran/protoss 3rd at the 12/6 o clock bases.
moreover, they added in rocks on tal darim altar to the 3rd base, so when the terran or protoss 15cc/nexus, you are going to be 2base vs 2base for the first 10minutes or will have to expo into the middle of nowhere, hope it doesn't get spotted, or just sac it and the workers at it. damn blizzard always had been great at making maps for this game.
p.s. you'll notice macro zergs have 10~ supply worth of units for the first 10min if the conditions apply. You are so negative. Lol. 1. They added shakuras back in. 2. They removed the thing in Shakuras that zerg players complained about the most. 3. They added one of the GSL maps DAMNIT BLIZZARD WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!! did you not read what i typed? they made shakuras worse (read my first post) yes they did, and they made it even worse (read my first post) they added the first version of the gsl map which was awfully imbalanced (read my first post)
It's actually easier to attack those shakuras 6 & 12 by air, and they can't slow push you, which is the real problem. Having defendable expansions isn't that terrible. It's kind of difficult for protoss to take those expansions now anyway.
Rocks on Tal-Darim are stupid though. I don't know why Blizzard hates third expansions so much...
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On March 23 2011 00:24 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Shakuras changes are not completely detestable on second glance, they did open the middle up a lot... But fuck, Taldarim! -__- Way to ruin it.
You're being so negative and hateful of all things Blizzard lately. :o
I think the rocks are a good addition, because I've seen various games where people get 3 bases up rather easily and then you might as well let the game start with 3 bases.
For zerg too, I know that it is an advantage for them to be able to expand more, but I don't think anyone should want zerg to be balanced around a quick three bases. They can still get it, but they have to build some units first. Constantly droning up isn't fun, because if it ends up as your only option the race becomes one dimensional. I question the high armor the rocks have though, it seems like it hurts zerg more than other races.
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On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC.
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On March 23 2011 00:28 Overpowered wrote:Rocks on Taldarim are bad, but it could be worse. Shakuras changes are nice. But the worst thing is that they keep map like Delta Quadrant. Why?!? I have only 3 vetos and I have to play on this map They could at least make Backwater fixed crosspawn, that would be excellent.
New backwater isn't as bad as Delta Quad (for Protoss anyway), you can actually take your natural now
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On March 23 2011 00:34 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:24 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Shakuras changes are not completely detestable on second glance, they did open the middle up a lot... But fuck, Taldarim! -__- Way to ruin it. You're being so negative and hateful of all things Blizzard lately. :o I think the rocks are a good addition, because I've seen various games where people get 3 bases up rather easily and then you might as well let the game start with 3 bases. For zerg too, I know that it is an advantage for them to be able to expand more, but I don't think anyone should want zerg to be balanced around a quick three bases. They can still get it, but they have to build some units first. Constantly droning up isn't fun, because if it ends up as your only option the race becomes one dimensional. I question the high armor the rocks have though, it seems like it hurts zerg more than other races.
The changes to Tal'darim make it so turtle play is actually better (once you kill the rocks) because they changed the mineral amount. One of the unique features of GSL's version is that you are forced to continuously expand because of low-econ bases.
Even if games end up not being too different or balance is unchanged, I still don't see the reason why Blizzard has to put the "destructible rock stamp" everywhere.
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On March 23 2011 00:35 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC.
How can you possibly say that a fast 3-bases could be too strong for Zerg when there are already builds that destroy a Zerg thats being too greedy? Maybe you'd have a point if there weren't 2-rax, 3-rax, 4-gate, 3-gate, 7 pool, etc builds. This would just make is possible for zerg to respond to a T or P FE build by taking an additional base instead of being forced into taking a risky 3rd or doing a 2-base timing.
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On March 23 2011 00:34 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:24 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Shakuras changes are not completely detestable on second glance, they did open the middle up a lot... But fuck, Taldarim! -__- Way to ruin it. You're being so negative and hateful of all things Blizzard lately. :o I think the rocks are a good addition, because I've seen various games where people get 3 bases up rather easily and then you might as well let the game start with 3 bases. For zerg too, I know that it is an advantage for them to be able to expand more, but I don't think anyone should want zerg to be balanced around a quick three bases. They can still get it, but they have to build some units first. Constantly droning up isn't fun, because if it ends up as your only option the race becomes one dimensional. I question the high armor the rocks have though, it seems like it hurts zerg more than other races.
I don't know. I think it unfavors zerg too much, as terran and protoss will actually have units to kill the rocks and good defenses. So Terran and Protoss can take fast thirds (as demonstrated by Jinro), but it slows down zerg significantly.
Like does anyone here wonder what DQ would be like without the back-expansion rocks??
On March 23 2011 00:39 Dental Floss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:35 Treehead wrote:On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC. How can you possibly say that a fast 3-bases could be too strong for Zerg when there are already builds that destroy a Zerg thats being too greedy? Maybe you'd have a point if there weren't 2-rax, 3-rax, 4-gate, 3-gate, 7 pool, etc builds. This would just make is possible for zerg to respond to a T or P FE build by taking an additional base instead of being forced into taking a risky 3rd or doing a 2-base timing.
Er... he wasn't saying that. He was saying that that is Blizzard's rationale.
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On March 23 2011 00:35 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC.
Shakuras shows that on good maps this is simply not the case (don't worry, I didn't misunderstood you as somebody making a point in favour of more rocks).
Shakuras demonstrated perfectly how a map with an easy to take 2nd and a semi-decently to take 3rd doesn't favour zerg at all since the other races profit immensely from an easy to take and defend third as well. In fact, I as a toss player LOVE maps that give me a "free" third (like shattered temple cross position) vs zerg. He can have the whole map, as long as I have my third (and the gold as fourth) I'm 100% happy.
On March 23 2011 00:40 DoubleReed wrote:
Like does anyone here wonder what DQ would be like without the back-expansion rocks??
Terrans would still tank-drop me, and I would still have it downvoted ~~
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On March 23 2011 00:39 Dental Floss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:35 Treehead wrote:On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC. How can you possibly say that a fast 3-bases could be too strong for Zerg when there are already builds that destroy a Zerg thats being too greedy? Maybe you'd have a point if there weren't 2-rax, 3-rax, 4-gate, 3-gate, 7 pool, etc builds. This would just make is possible for zerg to respond to a T or P FE build by taking an additional base instead of being forced into taking a risky 3rd or doing a 2-base timing.
Um, good luck 3gating, 7pooling, 3/2raxing on Tal'Darim...
4gate I could see, but all you have to do is deny the pylon and it is game over
Shakuras shows that on good maps this is simply not the case (don't worry, I didn't misunderstood you as somebody making a point in favour of more rocks).
Shakuras demonstrated perfectly how a map with an easy to take 2nd and a semi-decently to take 3rd doesn't favour zerg at all since the other races profit immensely from an easy to take and defend third as well. In fact, I as a toss player LOVE maps that give me a "free" third (like shattered temple cross position) vs zerg. He can have the whole map, as long as I have my third (and the gold as fourth) I'm 100% happy.
What "free" third do you get on the new ST?
edit: NVM -.-, its almost 2am I was thinking of Shakuras for some reason when you said Shattered
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On March 22 2011 22:48 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 21:50 sleepingdog wrote:On March 22 2011 21:47 Candles wrote:
I think it's pretty unbelievable how negative some people are being. The Map pool has got better and yet people are still complaining.
If somebody punches you in the face, are you thankful if he pays you a drink afterwards? The map pool is still polluted by maps like slag pits and delta quadrant, and backwater gulch is still awful, despite being a bit better now. The only good thing about adding tal darim altar is, that Blizz has obviously started to realize, that they are actually incapable of making good maps and leave it up to the community. Which is a good thing, but pretty much the only good thing about the current mappool. That's a pretty disingenuous analogy. The current situation is more like Blizzard punching you in the face at a bar, then apologizing and offering to buy you a beer and you refusing. They returned Shakuras without the Terran Hallway of Doom, put in a GSL map with a tweak that doesn't matter much (though low armor rocks would have been better), and put in several much larger maps as well as fixing up Backwater Gulch. Not to mention that recently they removed Blistering Sands and Lost Temple, two maps that showed pretty bad imbalance. I think the situation is improving.
Its not even like that. At no point did anyone get punched in the face. It's like someone buying you a drink and then you complaining cuz it wasn't the drink you wanted so they go back to the bar and get you the drink you wanted, but you're now complaining because there is Ice in it.
What happened to the mature community I keep being told about from the Broadwar days? I think next time Blizz might not bother listening to the community (which they clearly did here), because no matter what they do there are people who will complain.
Don't get me wrong, there is a place for constructive criticism and that is on a Battlenet forum and it should be done in a constructive way and not just whining and pretending Blizz it out to screw you all over.
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On March 23 2011 00:40 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:39 Dental Floss wrote:On March 23 2011 00:35 Treehead wrote:On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC. How can you possibly say that a fast 3-bases could be too strong for Zerg when there are already builds that destroy a Zerg thats being too greedy? Maybe you'd have a point if there weren't 2-rax, 3-rax, 4-gate, 3-gate, 7 pool, etc builds. This would just make is possible for zerg to respond to a T or P FE build by taking an additional base instead of being forced into taking a risky 3rd or doing a 2-base timing. Um, good luck 3gating, 7pooling, 3/2raxing on Tal'Darim... 4gate I could see, but all you have to do is deny the pylon and it is game over
To be honest, I think 6 pools could be really strong on Tal'Darim in ZvP since many toss players might try a 15 Nex. And on this map it's literally impossible to get an early scouting of if you scout in the wrong direction.
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ugh its 11:45 am (45mins past) the time i should of been playing and there still not done? ugh
nice additions tho
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On March 23 2011 00:40 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:39 Dental Floss wrote:On March 23 2011 00:35 Treehead wrote:On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC. How can you possibly say that a fast 3-bases could be too strong for Zerg when there are already builds that destroy a Zerg thats being too greedy? Maybe you'd have a point if there weren't 2-rax, 3-rax, 4-gate, 3-gate, 7 pool, etc builds. This would just make is possible for zerg to respond to a T or P FE build by taking an additional base instead of being forced into taking a risky 3rd or doing a 2-base timing. Um, good luck 3gating, 7pooling, 3/2raxing on Tal'Darim... 4gate I could see, but all you have to do is deny the pylon and it is game over Show nested quote +Shakuras shows that on good maps this is simply not the case (don't worry, I didn't misunderstood you as somebody making a point in favour of more rocks).
Shakuras demonstrated perfectly how a map with an easy to take 2nd and a semi-decently to take 3rd doesn't favour zerg at all since the other races profit immensely from an easy to take and defend third as well. In fact, I as a toss player LOVE maps that give me a "free" third (like shattered temple cross position) vs zerg. He can have the whole map, as long as I have my third (and the gold as fourth) I'm 100% happy. What "free" third do you get on the new ST?
The free third he is referring to is the natural of the other vertical position. There are no rocks there blocking anything. Although it does have its own choke.
Honestly, it's hard to see how aggression will work on the larger maps because they'll be much more greedy builds in general. So 3gating, 2/3 raxing would still work, assuming that the opponent will doing something more greedy than what people are doing now.
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On March 23 2011 00:42 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:40 Dommk wrote:On March 23 2011 00:39 Dental Floss wrote:On March 23 2011 00:35 Treehead wrote:On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC. How can you possibly say that a fast 3-bases could be too strong for Zerg when there are already builds that destroy a Zerg thats being too greedy? Maybe you'd have a point if there weren't 2-rax, 3-rax, 4-gate, 3-gate, 7 pool, etc builds. This would just make is possible for zerg to respond to a T or P FE build by taking an additional base instead of being forced into taking a risky 3rd or doing a 2-base timing. Um, good luck 3gating, 7pooling, 3/2raxing on Tal'Darim... 4gate I could see, but all you have to do is deny the pylon and it is game over To be honest, I think 6 pools could be really strong on Tal'Darim in ZvP since many toss players might try a 15 Nex. And on this map it's literally impossible to get an early scouting of if you scout in the wrong direction.
On Shakuras, 6pool was kind of 50/50 against 15 Nexus as long as you got your forge right after, it will be much harder to do on Tal'Darim since Zerg has no idea where you are to begin with, so they will be taking a huge gamble
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6pool on taldarim? Huh? How would you know where to send the lings? That's even crazier than Fruitdealer 6pooling on Kulas back in september.
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I have re-uploaded the images,hopefully some1 saves the images cos i am not gonna re-load for the next time....
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On March 23 2011 00:35 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC.
Well the fast 3rd can only come as a response to a fast expand by your oponent. Any fast 3rd vs 1 base will absolutely kill you with practicly zero chance of being able to defend and I dont see a 3 base zerg beingoverpowered against a 2-base toss or terran. I think the Koreans figured it out pretty well by making it 2 and a half base(1 gas, 6 minerals bases) vs 2 base to be the balanced thing but it doesnt seem that Blizzard like that. Forcing 2 base vs 2 base is apparently better. Or something.
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On March 23 2011 00:52 Vladimir wrote:
6pool on taldarim? Huh? How would you know where to send the lings? That's even crazier than Fruitdealer 6pooling on Kulas back in september.
I was thinking about this exact game to be honest. Wouldn't it be possible to use a similar scouting pattern? Is taldarim too huge to do that? Serious question, I thought it was possible to scout 2 locations before you had to decide which "direction" the lings had to take.
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Why do Blizzard need to put rocks on EVERY single map?
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On March 23 2011 00:58 Cain0 wrote:
Why do Blizzard need to put rocks on EVERY single map?
They like trolling us sometimes I think.
This is blizzard right now after changing tal darim -> 
browder is like: "rocks added, job well done "
shakuras changes don't look too bad imo...i mean it's a big step (for blizzard) to add tal darim, a non blizz map, to the map pool...but this is sorta like your parents buying you that mega awesome toy you wanted for christmas, and then you get it and they tell you it takes like 4 triple A batteries, and they only got you double A's.
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Destructible rocks are Blizzard's manner pylon.
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I read pages of simple whining without actually playing. Yes TDA LE does look like a slightly worse map, but it doesn't make Tal'Darim unplayable. They made Shakuras more interesting, and Backwater Gulch is less of a 4-gate fest. What's the HUGE PROBLEM?
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Tal Darim Altar and Shakuras OMG! Just ban Gulch, Peaks and Pits from map pool and then i got only good maps in my pool yes! Yayayayaya Tal Darim and Shakuras FTW!
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On March 23 2011 01:05 hmsrenown wrote:
I read pages of simple whining without actually playing. Yes TDA LE does look like a slightly worse map, but it doesn't make Tal'Darim unplayable. They made Shakuras more interesting, and Backwater Gulch is less of a 4-gate fest. What's the HUGE PROBLEM?
The problem is that Blizz are doing things literally NOBODY wants and would be EASY to prevent. I mean, say we request a completely new setup for custom games. Now that's something Blizz had to put lots and lots of work into it...I understand that they don't.
But actually nobody asked for rocks on taldarim EVER, all Blizz had to do was do a copy/paste of the GSL map. All the work has already been done "for" them. So instead of just taking what's in front of them, they willfully decide to make something really good...a bit worse. No taldarim isn't a bad map because of that. But the mere fact that Blizz took a well designed map, where people put a lot of effort into it to make it as well balanced as possible, and mutilated it with something completely unnecessary and stupid really deserves all the flaming and hate that's around here.
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I am on the single player right now waiting for the patch to complete, there are no changes to backwater in the single player, no Tal altar LE, shakura's looks the same..... I am assuming the maps will have to be downloaded when queuing for 1v1s? is that why they are still the same in single player?
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On March 23 2011 00:35 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC.
My apologies - I guess this wording wasn't clear.
This isn't what I think. I don't have enough experience to make this assertion, even if I did think this (I'd argue that no one yet has enough experience, but that's neither here nor there).
I recall reading a blizzard rep saying that their testing indicated zerg being too powerful given maps which allowed them to expand freely, although I don't have the source handy. As I don't have access to the data from said testing, I can't really comment on it, and doing so would be OT anyway.
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Thanks for reuploading the images!
I really don't undestand why Blizz is putting destructible rocks on expos. It really does only hurt the zerg and it's totally stupid. I understand that some expos like golds need to be protected by them so they can't be taken too early like on Xel Naga, but this is just bullshit. Blizz dunno anything about their own game. If they did, they would have addressed ZvP in their recent patch - but they didn't (except for the infestor change that wasn't intended to balance ZvP anyways)
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On March 23 2011 01:17 Juice303 wrote:
I am on the single player right now waiting for the patch to complete, there are no changes to backwater in the single player, no Tal altar LE, shakura's looks the same..... I am assuming the maps will have to be downloaded when queuing for 1v1s? is that why they are still the same in single player?
Yeah you have to download them, but you don't have to do it on the ladder. If you want to download a specific map you can create custom game and click the download button. You don't even need to jump into the map.
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On March 23 2011 01:18 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 00:35 Treehead wrote:On March 23 2011 00:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I never understood why Blizzard is trying to prevent players from expanding.
Apparently, Blizzard has it in their head that zerg becomes too powerful if expanding is too safe and easy. I can't say one way or another, because I've never seen a map where zerg could expand safely and easily and I could not, but that was their stated rationale IIRC. My apologies - I guess this wording wasn't clear. This isn't what I think. I don't have enough experience to make this assertion, even if I did think this (I'd argue that no one yet has enough experience, but that's neither here nor there). I recall reading a blizzard rep saying that their testing indicated zerg being too powerful given maps which allowed them to expand freely, although I don't have the source handy. As I don't have access to the data from said testing, I can't really comment on it, and doing so would be OT anyway.
They are probally right about that - to some extend at least. Too fast 3-base growth could be too powerfull. Koreans found the solution to that by making the easy thirds 1gas, 6minerals. Really someone should inform Blizzard about that. Oh wait, they did already! But yeah sadly they ignored that and picked the solution that everybody pasionately hates by throwing destructible rocks at it.
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On March 23 2011 01:21 decaf wrote:
Thanks for reuploading the images!
I really don't undestand why Blizz is putting destructible rocks on expos. It really does only hurt the zerg and it's totally stupid. I understand that some expos like golds need to be protected by them so they can't be taken too early like on Xel Naga, but this is just bullshit. Blizz dunno anything about their own game. If they did, they would have addressed ZvP in their recent patch - but they didn't (except for the infestor change that wasn't intended to balance ZvP anyways)
Infester change wasn't intended to balance ZvP? You're joking, right? Do you realize that the doomball Protoss get consists of mostly armored units (collosus, stalker, voidray)?
So tell me, what exactly were they "intending" to balance with a 30% damage buff to armored? Was it so you could fungal tanks and thors more efficiently now (sarcasm)?
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Ares[Effort]
DEMACIA6550 Posts
Sigh blizzard, what's the point of having a GSL map if its technically not a GSL map? It defeats the whole purpose of training for GSL using ladder since they have "GSL map pool" blizzard added rocks and made it a full base, when GSL will use their own map they won't have a full base nor the rocks. ♥ Blizzard ........
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Training for GSL using ladder? They aren't going to make changes that will benefit 0.0001% of the player base. They changed the map in a way they saw fit that would make it more appropriate for the bnet population at large.
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On March 23 2011 02:29 Gescom wrote:
Training for GSL using ladder? They aren't going to make changes that will benefit 0.0001% of the player base. They changed the map in a way they saw fit that would make it more appropriate for the bnet population at large.
The bnet population at large never takes a 3rd base.
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I do love how blizzard continues to refine good maps, add new ones, remove old ones even if they were loved. More map pool changes the better for the community in the long run!
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I don't care about the rocks. I don't care about small changes in the GSL map. I care about big steps towards a better map pool. This is one. Thank you, Blizz.
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On March 23 2011 02:30 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 02:29 Gescom wrote:
Training for GSL using ladder? They aren't going to make changes that will benefit 0.0001% of the player base. They changed the map in a way they saw fit that would make it more appropriate for the bnet population at large. The bnet population at large never takes a 3rd base.
hardly ever 2nd base will be taken
But i will be in trouble with tvp, i suck at it as it is now, and after those few early buffs i cant defend deathball or chargealot rush, i just suck defending those :/, HTs were easier to defend against.
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Awesome taldarim altar is an amazing map! Excellent
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On March 23 2011 02:30 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 02:29 Gescom wrote:
Training for GSL using ladder? They aren't going to make changes that will benefit 0.0001% of the player base. They changed the map in a way they saw fit that would make it more appropriate for the bnet population at large. The bnet population at large never takes a 3rd base.
Touche.
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Is there a problem with gulch's ramp I just played a game on it vs zerg and it was very hard to wall off properly at first. Also spine defences are insanely better at the nat now you basically have to go into the closer path or get sniped by spines as you try to move in.
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On March 23 2011 02:29 Gescom wrote:
Training for GSL using ladder? They aren't going to make changes that will benefit 0.0001% of the player base. They changed the map in a way they saw fit that would make it more appropriate for the bnet population at large.
I don't understand how it's more appropriate. Casual players don't care about low mineral expansions because they're only casual players by definition. The competitive players who care about that sort of thing will all be aware of it. And once you've learned about it you've learned it forever. Not only for that map but you'll know that you should look out for such things on other maps.
Really Blizzard, how could a low mineral expo possibly negatively impact your sales? Do you think people are going to stop playing just because some expo has low minerals? On the contrary, if anything it would help long term sales and do nothing to slow short term sales. No casual is ever going to stop playing because some map has a low mineral expo.
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Really glad to see Shakuras back in there! Along with Taldarim! What a great map. At the same time though, I would really like to see Slag Pits and maybe Backwater gone... Hopefully they'll realize how awesome Terminius RE is. I really love that map. As for Scrap Station, it's not that I don't like the map, its just starting to get old.
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im so happy to see Shakuras back!!! and Taldarim :D
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They fucked up Tal Darim Alter.
They blocked the third and added a bridge in between the main and the third, which will allow Terran to make Zerg's life a living hell with Siege Tanks.
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For comparison, the analyzer image of Tal'darim Altar:
+ Show Spoiler [TSL/GSL] +
+ Show Spoiler [LE] +
It's the same size overall. There were some other changes besides the third, such as the addition of a reaper/colossus path between the main and third.
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I wonder why Delta Quadrant is still in the map pool? Such an old map, and one that can be so unfavourable to Zerg. I'd prefer seeing Crossfire SE (GSL) added in its place.
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great change to shakruas, i like it very much
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Sneaking GSL maps in...I love Blizzard. They, along with Valve, are the most attentive company to their customers, but Blizzard far more so.
Also...love the Backwater change!!
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I've got a whiny and a happy eye.
For once that they add a GSL map, and put back shakuras. Happy eye.
That they freaking change the proved GSL maps and adding destructible rocks and changing expansion layouts. Whiny one.
I really don't get Blizzards mentality.
If you do what the community wants, like changing the mappool according to the communitys desire, do it like they want and don't just kfdsjklfjldskjfkljeklejasööljsö screw things up again by doing unwanted, garbage things. I just don't get their reasoning with the way they
handle the development of Sc2.
They are adding so many (destructible) rocks (lol i know that one was bad) into their own way and displeasing us in the first place, instead of just doing proper work.
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Well.. I'm glad blizzard keeps taking steps in the right direction. But I do hope they will soon realize that their desire of having the same ladder map pool for both bronze and master league is just simply untenable. Steppes works fine in Bronze league I can imagine, but is horribly unbalanced on Platinum and higher. At the same time I can see how a map like Old Terminus RE could feel too large and overwhelming for the lower leagues.
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On March 23 2011 02:44 SovSov wrote:
They fucked up Tal Darim Alter.
They blocked the third and added a bridge in between the main and the third, which will allow Terran to make Zerg's life a living hell with Siege Tanks.
But it is a low ground bridge though.... They will need spotters to see the high ground and nothing in the small area is immune to roach attacks (well, from one side yes, but not if Roaches are on both sides)
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On March 23 2011 02:46 butter wrote:For comparison, the analyzer image of Tal'darim Altar: + Show Spoiler [TSL/GSL] ++ Show Spoiler [LE] +It's the same size overall. There were some other changes besides the third, such as the addition of a reaper/colossus path between the main and third.
Besides the third getting a rock I actually really like the changes they made. The gas and minerals in the natural have been moved further away from the cliff to the lowground, making them harder to hit from the just below the cliff which I think is a nice change. The reaper/colosi path from 3rd to main is good as well even though I dont think it will be used much. They fixed a lot of pathing as well so you cant drop units in odd positions which even though we havent seen it used yet in the original version could be very abusive. If only they didnt have to throw rocks at everything.....
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On March 23 2011 02:46 butter wrote:For comparison, the analyzer image of Tal'darim Altar: + Show Spoiler [TSL/GSL] ++ Show Spoiler [LE] +It's the same size overall. There were some other changes besides the third, such as the addition of a reaper/colossus path between the main and third.
Wow thanks for this, I haven't realized they added those stupid "bridges" too - I mean what is this even, do they have employees with nothing to do and tell them "hmm....instead of just surfing bnet forums you could modify maps a bit, wouldn't that be great?"
Don't get me wrong, it probably won't break match-ups. It's just...why...WHY do they have to modify a perfectly fine map (well, imo it's already a bit "too" large and wide open, but anyways), why couldn't the world just make sense.
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On March 23 2011 03:21 sleepingdog wrote:Wow thanks for this, I haven't realized they added those stupid "bridges" too - I mean what is this even, do they have employees with nothing to do and tell them "hmm....instead of just surfing bnet forums you could modify maps a bit, wouldn't that be great?" Don't get me wrong, it probably won't break match-ups. It's just...why...WHY do they have to modify a perfectly fine map (well, imo it's already a bit "too" large and wide open, but anyways), why couldn't the world just make sense.
What about siege drops? : /
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On March 23 2011 00:18 Dental Floss wrote:I would love to hear your explanation for this.
See the rocks represent our societies struggle to free up ressources spiritually, emotionally and culturally. What Blizzard is trying to say is that we need to open our eyes to the imminent shortage of our own natural ressources and thus have to scout out for new untapped fields, even if it means we have to look beyond the things that obscure our visible horizon.
It's quite poetic really. "Shoot the rocks" as in "Shoot for the stars" .
One might of course say that it's just Blizzards inability to look outside of the box and what they should do is just adjust the amount of mineral patches & geysers to cater to the game's mid-to-lategame where a farther and unsafer expansion has to be taken to create both tension in attacking and defending a larger area. But we can't all be GSL-mapper-rocket-scientists.
Hey, that's just talk. Blizzard is smart. They know what they are doing. Eventually.
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I enjoy how Blizzard can't have a map in the ladder pool without destructible rocks. How pathetic.
Oh well, I guess I can't complain too much, the ladder map pool is pretty baller now. Just gotta wait for them to remove Delta, slag, and backwater and replace them with GSL maps and it will be perfect. (does anyone play on delta or slag? Seriously?)
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My favorite change about Shakuras is that I think they change the map size by 1 or two units. If you play it you will notice that there is much more space around the outer edge of the map. (I think) This helps out to keep scouting overlords alive, and later helps out dropship and any air harass.
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I might need to think about un-veto-ing backwater, it may go from horrible to barely playable.
Shakuras looks good with those changes
Woo TDA!!
I hope the changes they made don't mess up the dynamic of the map too much...
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On March 23 2011 03:25 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 03:21 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 02:46 butter wrote:For comparison, the analyzer image of Tal'darim Altar: + Show Spoiler [TSL/GSL] ++ Show Spoiler [LE] +It's the same size overall. There were some other changes besides the third, such as the addition of a reaper/colossus path between the main and third. Wow thanks for this, I haven't realized they added those stupid "bridges" too - I mean what is this even, do they have employees with nothing to do and tell them "hmm....instead of just surfing bnet forums you could modify maps a bit, wouldn't that be great?" Don't get me wrong, it probably won't break match-ups. It's just...why...WHY do they have to modify a perfectly fine map (well, imo it's already a bit "too" large and wide open, but anyways), why couldn't the world just make sense. What about siege drops? : /
What you mean? The ledge is low-ground, dude I would go outside and insta-kill the first kitten in sight if Blizz added high-ground-cliffs.
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On March 23 2011 02:30 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 02:29 Gescom wrote:
Training for GSL using ladder? They aren't going to make changes that will benefit 0.0001% of the player base. They changed the map in a way they saw fit that would make it more appropriate for the bnet population at large. The bnet population at large never takes a 3rd base.
I'm thinking about writing a long post about this. A thought occurred to me that the reason the map pool is moving in the right direction kicking and screaming is because Blizzard is trying to ease the casuals into the concept macro games, so that it can then ease the casuals into "buying tickets to tournaments that pay us licensing fees". It actually explains a lot of their decisions really well.
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On March 23 2011 04:14 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 02:30 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 02:29 Gescom wrote:
Training for GSL using ladder? They aren't going to make changes that will benefit 0.0001% of the player base. They changed the map in a way they saw fit that would make it more appropriate for the bnet population at large. The bnet population at large never takes a 3rd base. I'm thinking about writing a long post about this. A thought occurred to me that the reason the map pool is moving in the right direction kicking and screaming is because Blizzard is trying to ease the casuals into the concept macro games, so that it can then ease the casuals into "buying tickets to tournaments that pay us licensing fees". It actually explains a lot of their decisions really well.
Sorry for my cynical posts, but if Blizz wanted the casuals to play macro-games, why on earth would they have started off with maps like steppes?
In all honesty, all my "casual"-gaming reallife friends HATE rushes, more precisely: DYING against rushes. Now they are used to one-base-play. But originally they wouldn't build units ever the first 10 minutes, just build every tech available because it's cool. Taking a 2nd base in this process would just be another step.
Blizz has a flawed concept about "what casuals want", I really don't know why, but about 90% of the low-level-players I know would love huge maps where they won't get rushed ever.
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On March 23 2011 04:17 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 04:14 Ribbon wrote:On March 23 2011 02:30 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 02:29 Gescom wrote:
Training for GSL using ladder? They aren't going to make changes that will benefit 0.0001% of the player base. They changed the map in a way they saw fit that would make it more appropriate for the bnet population at large. The bnet population at large never takes a 3rd base. I'm thinking about writing a long post about this. A thought occurred to me that the reason the map pool is moving in the right direction kicking and screaming is because Blizzard is trying to ease the casuals into the concept macro games, so that it can then ease the casuals into "buying tickets to tournaments that pay us licensing fees". It actually explains a lot of their decisions really well. Sorry for my cynical posts, but if Blizz wanted the casuals to play macro-games, why on earth would they have started off with maps like steppes?
To get them to buy the game in the first place, silly. Hence "ease". The game starts out as "fast exciting" one base maps like Steppes, evolves into two-base maps, and now we have 3 base maps like Typhon and TA LE. Slowly giving people who wouldn't be interested in a buying macro game more inclined to try them. And then to buy tickets to see them.
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On March 23 2011 03:48 P00RKID wrote:
My favorite change about Shakuras is that I think they change the map size by 1 or two units. If you play it you will notice that there is much more space around the outer edge of the map. (I think) This helps out to keep scouting overlords alive, and later helps out dropship and any air harass.
Yes, they added space at the bottom. The playable map dimensions went from 156×128 to 156×136.
Map analyzer images from the old ladder version and the new Shakuras Plateau v1.5 (confusingly added in patch 1.3):
+ Show Spoiler [2011-01-21] +
+ Show Spoiler [patch 1.3] +
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I love the new 3v3 map, looks sooo fun!
Gotta try to get a game on it later
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On March 23 2011 04:21 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 04:17 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 04:14 Ribbon wrote:On March 23 2011 02:30 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 02:29 Gescom wrote:
Training for GSL using ladder? They aren't going to make changes that will benefit 0.0001% of the player base. They changed the map in a way they saw fit that would make it more appropriate for the bnet population at large. The bnet population at large never takes a 3rd base. I'm thinking about writing a long post about this. A thought occurred to me that the reason the map pool is moving in the right direction kicking and screaming is because Blizzard is trying to ease the casuals into the concept macro games, so that it can then ease the casuals into "buying tickets to tournaments that pay us licensing fees". It actually explains a lot of their decisions really well. Sorry for my cynical posts, but if Blizz wanted the casuals to play macro-games, why on earth would they have started off with maps like steppes? To get them to buy the game in the first place, silly. Hence "ease". The game starts out as "fast exciting" one base maps like Steppes, evolves into two-base maps, and now we have 3 base maps like Typhon and TA LE. Slowly giving people who wouldn't be interested in a buying macro game more inclined to try them. And then to buy tickets to see them.
It's only somewhat recently the community started to hate Steppes of War. Certainly the map's reception was very favorable in beta. And there have been plenty of macro games on Steppes of War, it was one of the maps you could most easily take three bases on and it produced some really fun games too.
Nowadays the game has been figured out too much for a map such as this to make it simply not safe to do a lot of things, but that wasn't always the case.
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On March 23 2011 04:23 butter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 03:48 P00RKID wrote:
My favorite change about Shakuras is that I think they change the map size by 1 or two units. If you play it you will notice that there is much more space around the outer edge of the map. (I think) This helps out to keep scouting overlords alive, and later helps out dropship and any air harass. Yes, they added space at the bottom. The playable map dimensions went from 156×128 to 156×136. Map analyzer images from the old ladder version and the new Shakuras Plateau v1.5 (confusingly added in patch 1.3): + Show Spoiler [2011-01-21] ++ Show Spoiler [patch 1.3] +
Thanks for the graphics, but I would like to point out the "average openness" is reduced.
Personally I think the changes are bad because they turn the map into a "regular map" which has one center space in which all fights are going to take place. No more skirting around on different routes and that was one thing which kept Shakuras Plateau interesting to watch. Protoss deathballs can never be on the "wrong side of the river" now and the same for Zerg swarms or Bioballs.
Terrans should have a much easier time since the four pillars in the middle seem to have become bigger (an illusion which is created by moving them a bit closer together).
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On March 23 2011 03:14 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 02:44 SovSov wrote:
They fucked up Tal Darim Alter.
They blocked the third and added a bridge in between the main and the third, which will allow Terran to make Zerg's life a living hell with Siege Tanks. But it is a low ground bridge though.... They will need spotters to see the high ground and nothing in the small area is immune to roach attacks (well, from one side yes, but not if Roaches are on both sides)
How do you think the Siege Tanks would get there in the first place? lol... The Terran will already have Medivacs. Then there will be Marines to protect them, you know, like in any other standard tank aggression? It's just now Lings/Banelings won't be able to reach the tanks by normal means, allowing them to stack up and take heavier shots to protect the Marine-legs.
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I think blizzard like rocks way to much in SC2
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Is the new shakuras cross positions only? becasue ive played on that map all day and only got cross
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So disappointed in the Tal'Darim rocks. Now I can't double expand early on. Sad panda.
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On March 23 2011 05:30 LEEKsc wrote:
So disappointed in the Tal'Darim rocks. Now I can't double expand early on. Sad panda.
Take another mains Natural.
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This adding rocks crap screams to me of a War3 map designer working on the SC2 team. Whoever it is is addicted to creep mechanics and probably invented the destructible rock widget. Boy oh boy Blizz, the whole idea of the half bases was to generate tension when it comes to taking expansions.
Also:
It's the same size overall. There were some other changes besides the third, such as the addition of a reaper/colossus path between the main and third.
Blizzard's map philosophy has been dominated by shoehorning features to make misdesigned units relevant. Its a shame.
On the bright side they are being receptive to the community, particular the pro/Esport community.
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Nice, but why does blizzard put a gazillion rocks on every map ^^
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Will MLG take off MLG Shakuras now, and use the new one? Or will they use the old one still with cross spots only?
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On March 23 2011 04:21 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 04:17 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 04:14 Ribbon wrote:On March 23 2011 02:30 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 02:29 Gescom wrote:
Training for GSL using ladder? They aren't going to make changes that will benefit 0.0001% of the player base. They changed the map in a way they saw fit that would make it more appropriate for the bnet population at large. The bnet population at large never takes a 3rd base. I'm thinking about writing a long post about this. A thought occurred to me that the reason the map pool is moving in the right direction kicking and screaming is because Blizzard is trying to ease the casuals into the concept macro games, so that it can then ease the casuals into "buying tickets to tournaments that pay us licensing fees". It actually explains a lot of their decisions really well. Sorry for my cynical posts, but if Blizz wanted the casuals to play macro-games, why on earth would they have started off with maps like steppes? To get them to buy the game in the first place, silly. Hence "ease". The game starts out as "fast exciting" one base maps like Steppes, evolves into two-base maps, and now we have 3 base maps like Typhon and TA LE. Slowly giving people who wouldn't be interested in a buying macro game more inclined to try them. And then to buy tickets to see them.
Then you must know way different casual players than I do. The casual players I know want to sit in their base and build up a mass of Battlecruisers and thors, not 1base all-in every game.
If Blizz wanted to cater to casual gamers every map in the pool would be like Terminus RE and Tal'Darim Altar.
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Blizzard just had to add rocks to something...
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On March 23 2011 05:49 Newguy wrote:
Will MLG take off MLG Shakuras now, and use the new one? Or will they use the old one still with cross spots only?
I doubt they will use the new one for the first MLG (thats in less then 2 weeks now I think?). Next one I imagine they will change but wouldn't expect first one to be
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Glad Shakuras Plateau is back... but the changes... I guess they'll be OK. Two guesses as to which unit causes the most number of maps to be broken since 1997. That's right, the siege tank! Pretty sure Shakuras Plateau was fine till every Terran started siege pushes from back there.
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"Tal'Darim Altar! Now with rocks! Rocks everywhere! Brilliant!"
Genius.
Also, the ladder is totally broken and I can't play, how annoying.
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shakuras updates seem pretty good
really gonna help zerg out, no more back rock pushes from terran and no more rocks in middle making flanking much easier
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Was so excited to see GSL map, then saw rocks...Sometimes it sucks being Zerg.
Hey Blizz make some good maps before you start altering other people's work.
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why is delta still in there...
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On March 23 2011 07:39 aquanda wrote:
why is delta still in there...
yes...it is wasting a veto.
They should give us more vetoes or take out some maps.
So far I have Delta Q, Slag Pits, and Scrap Station vetoed.
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Jesus I hope Typhon, Shit pits and Delta get removed soon, give us more medium-large maps.
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tal darim is a cross between lost temple and fastestmap
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Well there you have it blizzard, even Jinro thinks your idiots
I like that 2v2 map map change, i played on that before and its so hard to defend your allies when the ramps are like that.
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is it just me or does it look like protoss can just abuse the living fuck out of those cliffs on shakuras now with collosi and blink stalker voidray vs zerg?
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Thank goodness for Taldarim Altar and the return of Shakuras. Shakuras was my favorite map in the pool, and tbh I think the changes will make it that much more balanced and interesting. The change to backwater is a step in the right direction, but I'd like it if the ramp to the natural wasn't... oh I don't know, a million miles wide. Oh well, at least expanding once is more possible for zerg/protoss. they really need to get rid of slag pits, scrap and delta and though. the fact that they're making changes is at the very least an indicator they are listening (somewhat)
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On March 23 2011 07:58 Laids wrote:
Jesus I hope Typhon, Shit pits and Delta get removed soon, give us more medium-large maps.
Did you mean something else instead of Typhon? Because that map is one of the largest in the pool I think.
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love these changes just sad it was only one new map but considering i was expecting none this is nice
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I believe changes were also made to Shattered Temple. It looks like the choke to the natural is more defined making it easier for wall in FE's
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So much misinformation in this thread.
Blizzard didn't add the rocks to Tal'Darim Altar. This is a much older version of the map thac you see in the GSL or the GSTL- this is the version that was used on Gisado back in January.
For proof- here's an ancient replay from an old patch on this version of the map (forgive my awful play)
http://www.mediafire.com/?7jvwwvp3z89wmoc
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Definitely an improvement to the map pool. Will have to get used to the new Shakuras though `-`
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I like the changes minus the ramp on Backwater..... Way to make all the expo look the same. It was fun to have another layout for your expo. I guess Blizzard didn't like it.
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This is pretty neat. GSL maps sneaking in!
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On March 23 2011 10:11 Obscura.304 wrote:So much misinformation in this thread. Blizzard didn't add the rocks to Tal'Darim Altar. This is a much older version of the map thac you see in the GSL or the GSTL- this is the version that was used on Gisado back in January. For proof- here's an ancient replay from an old patch on this version of the map (forgive my awful play) http://www.mediafire.com/?7jvwwvp3z89wmoc
Not quite. That version had gold bases in the center and a wallable natural. Also, even though it was blocked by rocks as in Blizzard's LE version, the third had only 8×750 minerals and 2×1250 geysers.
Images for comparison:
+ Show Spoiler [Gisado] +
+ Show Spoiler [GSL] +
+ Show Spoiler [New GSL] +
+ Show Spoiler [1.3 Ladder] +
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So next update/patch are they gonna take off Shakuras again?
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SICK!! i can't wait to try forge FE vs. zerg on tal'darim
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Does anyone know if it is still possible to spawn top-left/top right, or bottom-left, bottom right?
If you can those would be pretty bad spawns.
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On March 23 2011 10:22 Sayer wrote:
So next update/patch are they gonna take off Shakuras again?
No, Shakuras will stay.. just an updated version of it will be in the ladder pool.
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On March 23 2011 10:27 Goofus wrote:
Does anyone know if it is still possible to spawn top-left/top right, or bottom-left, bottom right?
If you can those would be pretty bad spawns.
You have failed to mention what map you are on.
On Shakuras this is what it is anyway,
On Tal'darim this is entirely common.
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Does this mean cross spawns only on Shakuras now?
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On March 23 2011 11:16 Datum wrote:
Does this mean cross spawns only on Shakuras now?
Considering that the point of the changes was to make horizontal spawns not be bad, I doubt it.
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New Shakuras looks awesome.
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Also, the Xel Naga towers are moved to actually useful locations.
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shakuras for some odd reason reminds me a bit of andromedia from bw (spelling?)
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Has anyone else noticed that the Tal'Darim Altar LE map's new ramp makes it completely impossible to FE on this map?
In the GSL version, you could wall at the choke at the second and secure both your main and natural. But the Blizzard version completely stops this. That means your second is exposed, on a ridiculously large map -- making you incredibly vulnerable to zerg FE and their two-base play.
Has anyone else noticed Omega Sector being removed from the 2v2 map pool? That map was horrible, too.
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On March 23 2011 10:22 wideye wrote:
SICK!! i can't wait to try forge FE vs. zerg on tal'darim
They actually widened the choke point on the new GSL map, so you can't really FE vs Zerg as Protoss, I really wish they said that in the patch notes before I played a match on it :/
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On March 23 2011 15:58 Shooks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 10:22 wideye wrote:
SICK!! i can't wait to try forge FE vs. zerg on tal'darim They actually widened the choke point on the new GSL map, so you can't really FE vs Zerg as Protoss, I really wish they said that in the patch notes before I played a match on it :/
As A Zerg, I approve ^_^
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NICE MAN!!! now i can start laddering again )))
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i still miss TERMINUS RE which i like much more then taldarim
and still the 3 new blizzard maps are to bad in compare to gsl maps
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On March 23 2011 15:58 Shooks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 10:22 wideye wrote:
SICK!! i can't wait to try forge FE vs. zerg on tal'darim They actually widened the choke point on the new GSL map, so you can't really FE vs Zerg as Protoss, I really wish they said that in the patch notes before I played a match on it :/
Lol i did the same thing. As a started by FFE i noticed it looked a little large but i thought tht was just becuz i haven't played it much. Then i got destroyed.
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Protoss, be very careful if you intend to wall in on Backwater Gulch at the top of the ramps into the main base. You can't have the same wall as ALL the other maps.
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Loving that they put Tal Darim altar in there. Hopefully they put Terminus in there as well sometime.
New shakuras looks cool as well. Definitely going to try them out once I get home.
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On March 23 2011 11:55 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 11:16 Datum wrote:
Does this mean cross spawns only on Shakuras now? Considering that the point of the changes was to make horizontal spawns not be bad, I doubt it.
No, you can have horizontal spawns also.
EDIT: And maybe its just me but did they add a 2v2 map also? :O Idk I don't play 2v2 often but I haven't seen some of these maps before lol.
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On March 23 2011 17:05 Kaitlin wrote:
Protoss, be very careful if you intend to wall in on Backwater Gulch at the top of the ramps into the main base. You can't have the same wall as ALL the other maps.
Got caught off guard by that as well. Delayed by gateway by 15seconds trying to figure out where exactly I needed to wall off, at first I thought I was blanking out and forgot how to wall off...
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On March 23 2011 18:10 GenesisX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 11:55 Ribbon wrote:On March 23 2011 11:16 Datum wrote:
Does this mean cross spawns only on Shakuras now? Considering that the point of the changes was to make horizontal spawns not be bad, I doubt it. No, you can have horizontal spawns also.
That's what I said.
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they should add the other gsl maps too ^^
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The rocks at the second expansion on TalDarim are so bad in ZvP when P Nexus first... you need to get the 6 o clock expansion and it is so far away from your ramp that it is really vulnerable to 6Gate pressure -_-
They should remove those rocks ...
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The 3rd on Tal'Darim Altar was probably made a full-resource expansion, as most ladderers are not used to the diminished BW style expos. And so the rocks were added to avoid some insane 3base plays.
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On March 23 2011 15:58 Shooks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 10:22 wideye wrote:
SICK!! i can't wait to try forge FE vs. zerg on tal'darim They actually widened the choke point on the new GSL map, so you can't really FE vs Zerg as Protoss, I really wish they said that in the patch notes before I played a match on it :/
Cool, yet another "awsome" new change. And by "awsome" I mean terrible, stupid, redonculous, etc. Blizz never seizes to surprise me in the most negative ways, somebody should give Dustin Browder his "milestone" award for most epic trolling already.
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The next update to Shattered Temple will have rocks at your natural, rocks blocking the exit from your natural, rocks circling the Xel Naga tower and rocks at random intervals throughout the centre area. There'll also be rocks floating around the forest areas of the map just in case, you know, you want to attack some rocks with your flying units because everyone loves destructible rocks.
ROCKS! MOAR ROCKS!
Also, I hear in 1.4 you need to destroy some rocks before you can click the "Find Match" button.
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They also made it that you can't wall in your natural with 2 baracks and a supply depot on Tal Darim so you can't actually play a 14 cc because you cant wall off properly. I can't express how angry I am about this.
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Here's to hoping somebody with exceptional knowledge and experience (far beyond mine) can screenshot the most appropriate wall-off for Protoss on Backwater Gulch...
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The natural choke in Tal Draim is just as bad as xel naga, 4 FF to cover it vs a 2 base baneling bustor hold the ramp which is 3ff wide. A FFE straight up dies to 2 base baneling bust, I would not recommend it in the slightest.
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Great changes all around, I actually didn't notice a few of the changes until reading this.
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On March 24 2011 00:04 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's to hoping somebody with exceptional knowledge and experience (far beyond mine) can screenshot the most appropriate wall-off for Protoss on Backwater Gulch...
it's not too hard..
i just wall off with gate cyber (beside each other horizontally not diagonally as usual), and a zlot. works fine.
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Great change on Shakuras, I recommanded that in the past, too.
Also great, that they add a GSL-Map. Not so great, that they add rocks to make it terrible. -.- Man I HATE destructible rocks. Just the worst invention in the history of mapmaking. In the begining I found it interesting because of the fact there were some good maps with good attitudes of backdoor like Medusa or Benzeene. But now, what happened? Every fucking map has some destructible rocks. It's not unique feature as it should be, it's just everywhere like trash. It's boring and didn't even invent good tactical possibilities but constrict the gameplay often times.
Enough raged though...I'm glad about the first half-of-a-good-step by Blizzard regarding the mappool.
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I like the changes and I love having a big map pool for ladder! I think it keeps things interesting so every ladder game isn't Metalopolis or Xelnaga Caverns. I hope they continue to add new maps frequently! It keeps things awesome for me at least! I hope they continue to add gsl maps into the ladder pool as well. I am excited to see TalDarim in the ladder pool and I hope the others make it in there sooner or later like Crossfire RE and Terminus RE. Considering most of the tournaments have the GSL maps in the tournament pool, it would give players more practice if they got to play the same maps in ladder. I would love to see Dual Sight and XelNaga Fortress sneak into there sometime too
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http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2267601507#1
Blizz explained their reasoning for the changes. I bolded some parts I find interesting.
Shakuras Plateau
Player feedback is incredibly important to us, so we decided to bring back Shakuras Plateau due in large part to popular demand by the community. There were two issues with this map, however, that we wanted to address before adding it back into the ladder pool (issues that we felt were severe enough to merit the removal of the map in the first place). The first issue was that the horizontal starting locations were extremely unfair in TvZ matchups (in favor of terran), and the second issue was that players only had one path to navigate around the map's center.
To help correct these balance issues, we've made the following changes to its layout:
The backdoor ramp and rocks leading into main base have been removed to address the horizontal start location issue.
Two rocked-off ramps have been added leading from the 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock expansions towards the middle to create an alternate path in the mid/late game to navigate around the center of the map.
The rocks by the center Xel'Naga Towers have been removed. We were noticing that if these rocks were there, it became very difficult to utilize the new rocked off-paths in the middle of the map (due to how difficult it was to clear out the Xel'Naga Tower area).
We feel the changes we've made will allow this player favorite to return as a strong ladder map and are looking forward to seeing new strategies develop.
I find it interesting that "Too easy to take your natural" wasn't one of the problems, given that was in some interview. I guess this confirms my suspicions that the guy giving the interview didn't know what he was talking about.
Tal'darim Altar
Back in February, we put up several new maps on the PTR for testing, during which time we evaluated their overall strengths and weaknesses. In addition to making improvements to some of the test maps before putting them on the live ladder rotation, we also decided to explore adding user-made GSL maps to our own ladder. Tal'darim Altar stood out due to its macro-heavy layout, well-protected natural, solid Xel'Naga Tower placements, and variety of harassment options. We had some concerns about certain aspects of the map's design, though, and have therefore made the following changes:
The high ground area near the center Xel'Naga Tower is now larger. This makes it easier to tell if units on the lower ground can see up.
The size of the area around the second expansion has been increased. We noticed that a lot of fights tend to occur in this area of the map, but that the area itself was just too narrow to allow for decent mid-sized battles.
Added a path for cliff walking units just outside of the natural expansion leading into the starting base. With this addition, we believe that players will be less likely to just sit back and defend their natural.
The size of the ramps leading to the natural and second expansions has been increased, as they were a bit too narrow and easy to defend previously.
Several short line-of-sight blockers have been removed. We felt that many of these LoS blockers were just too short and exposed to be effective.
The second expansion has been changed to include full minerals, but destructible rocks have been added to compensate for this base's increased value. We want players to be able to plan their strategy on an expansion-per-expansion level, not on a mineral patch-for-mineral patch level. We also feel that partial resources can be a confusing way to balance maps for many players and, in general, it's not something we want to do for normal ladder play.
The shrub area around the third expansion has been extended. The original area suffered from the same issue as most of the short LoS blockers, but we also thought it would be cool to extend it so that attacking this expansion becomes slightly more difficult when air units are not in play.
So the reasoning for the rocks is that they wanted expansions to be the same across maps, and not have "gimmicky" expos. Thus, three full bases right away was probably a bit too strong. I wouldn't be surprised if the third on "Terminus LE" has similar changes if/when it's added to the pool.
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Tal'darim Altar stood out due to its macro-heavy layout, well-protected natural, solid Xel'Naga Tower placements, and variety of harassment options. We had some concerns about certain aspects of the map's design, though, and have therefore made the following changes: [...] - Added a path for cliff walking units just outside of the natural expansion leading into the starting base. With this addition, we believe that players will be less likely to just sit back and defend their natural.
- The size of the ramps leading to the natural and second expansions has been increased, as they were a bit too narrow and easy to defend previously.
I'm not sure how to take this. It starts promisingly enough with praise for the "macro-heavy layout" and "well-protected natural", but it seems that these qualities are actually problematic for their concept of a ladder map. And I don't know how someone who obviously watches GSL could write that bit about the cliff-walking path...
They don't even mention their change to the choke to discourage walling, but we can be sure this was their intention; the last time we heard from Blizzard's mapmakers, they had this to say about Lost Temple: "The choke point by the natural expansions were too small; it was possible to block them off easily using only a few buildings."
The second expansion has been changed to include full minerals, but destructible rocks have been added to compensate for this base's increased value. We want players to be able to plan their strategy on an expansion-per-expansion level, not on a mineral patch-for-mineral patch level. We also feel that partial resources can be a confusing way to balance maps for many players and, in general, it's not something we want to do for normal ladder play.
This is a naive idea which Blizzard must eventually be cured of. Tweaking resource counts is a routine and necessary balancing tool. Anyone whose strategy is planned out so carefully that it depends on the resource counts at their third is capable of sorting out their own confusion.
Somewhat more concerning is the suggestion that they intend "normal ladder play" to continue to diverge from tournament map pools.
On Shakuras Plateau,
There isn't a huge problem with this map, but we feel there aren't enough interesting features.
But three weeks later,
There were two issues with this map, however, that we wanted to address before adding it back into the ladder pool (issues that we felt were severe enough to merit the removal of the map in the first place)
That clears that up, then...
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What I find interesting is how Blizzard mentioned severe TvZ imbalance in horizontal positions on Shakuras Plateau. It's strange because, compared to other maps (DQ), that are still in the pool, and others (LT, SoW) that weren't said to have been removed because of imbalance, Shakuras Plateau's imbalance problems felt relatively mild. But to see Blizzard's odd treatment of that map--adding it mid-season, taking it out, putting back in, cutting it a month later, and then massively modifying it--makes me wonder if Shakuras's original form actually had very deep, game-breaking imbalances that were revealed only in Blizzard's internal statistics. I know it doesn't seem to make sense, but what else would justify Blizz's treating the map oddly, while leaving maps like DQ alone? In any case, I think this is something the major leagues should look into before using the old Shakuras in their map pools.
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i'll be straight up honest here, im not a huge fan of tal'darim. i dont like the idea of level ground entrances to the main base, it makes it even more difficult to hold of 4gates pvp than a normal map with a wider ramp (scrap station.) i could really see that map becoming 4gate vs 4gate most games since it takes 2 forcefields to block off the entrance, hindering most 4gate defenses pretty handily. idk if its just me not liking the change but i really think its kind of bad for P early game to not be able to use high ground and ff the ramp with just one forcefield
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oh my god blizzard, you were so close 0_0,
making backwater better - Tick
Shakuras with some execellent improvements! - Tick
TALDARIM! - Tick
Why did you put rocks on the third 0_0, stop doing this!
Let me double expand =[
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Khaydarin Depths![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/mKuP8.jpg)
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