EPTIs SC skill natural or trained? - Page 14
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sicajung
United Kingdom297 Posts
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Flaunt
New Zealand784 Posts
On March 22 2011 19:50 sicajung wrote: ive read a book where it says if u clock 10,000 hours of doing something. u are gonna get good at it. it doesnt matter what it is you are doing. either study, playing games or sport. 10,000 hours and u are gonna become good at it. What was the book? I remember hearing that some where else and have always been interested in reading it. | ||
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sicajung
United Kingdom297 Posts
On March 22 2011 19:51 Flaunt wrote: What was the book? I remember hearing that some where else and have always been interested in reading it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book) | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 22 2011 19:41 tracoes wrote: The easiest way to explain talent imo is drawing. I can sit here and draw infinity pictures and will never draw as good as someone with NATURAL drawing ability. I work in an artistic field, and I suspect that you probably are underestimating yourself, though no doubt there are those who bring more natural ability than others to the field. Truth is, the people who are strong artists are usually also the ones who love to do it to the exclusion of everything else, so it's hard to distinguish between practice and talent. I once had a supervisor tell me that he could teach most people to do our jobs if they really wanted to learn, but that one out of 10 people just seemed to be artistically tone-deaf. It's possible that's a reasonable model for SC2? | ||
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
BUT, there are many skills involved with being successful at Starcraft, and nearly all of them can be either directly or indirectly effected from early age. Attention to detail and critical thinking apply heavily into the decision making factors necessary to play this game at a high level, and due to upbringing, it's quite clear that two people, although they are the same age/sex pick up the game at difference paces. This however, does not limit the amount of improvement one can get simply with practice. Damn near everything in life can be attained through practice, but different people practice in very different ways. There is a huge influence on mindset in general and specifically the creation and expanding of neural pathways at a progressive rate to be able to process information attained from practice sessions more clearly. Joe Schmo and Claudio Arrau can practice the same 4 bars of music over and over again, but 99% of the time, Arrau will make more effective use of the time due to the extensive amount of training he has put into the subject. This applies to Starcraft as well, some people learn at a faster rate, it's why we see huge differentials in games played from people within bronze-masters. This doesn't mean you cannot obtain the skills necessary to become better or will this limit you from eventually becoming a pro gamer,it simply means going into any activity, there will be some people at a disadvantage. Once enough time has been spent practicing to increase your craft, and a plateau is reached. Innate talent will become an issue, but this is only at a very high level which the large majority of the population will never reach. TL:DR Everyone accumulates knowledge at different rates, but it merely effects the starting position (or league I guess ;D) My 2 cents. | ||
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solistus
United States172 Posts
IIRC, IdrA says it works like this: up to the very top level, it's mostly about how much time and effort you put in. At the very top level, *everyone* puts in a huge amount of time and effort, so the difference between say, a player who's top 10 in the world and a player who's "only" top 100, is mostly about innate talent. | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
the natural skill, is just intelligence and strategy.. Its what seperates someone like IdrA who plays 12 hours a day practicing the same builds everygame and being too robotic, vs someone like Sen who can play 3-4 hours a day, and put up better results because hes a strategic genius and just knows how to play "smart".. You need both, the very top level mechanics, and the special strategic intelligence, thats what makes a Flash or Jaedong.. take one away, and you have someone like Boxer (great intelligence but so-so mechanic) and the reverse. | ||
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Spitfire
South Africa442 Posts
If there was no talent involved then why would Flash be so much better then most of the other pro players? It cant just be because he plays it more then them as they all have the same practice environment. | ||
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Skrelt
Netherlands306 Posts
On March 22 2011 21:44 solistus wrote: It's generally said that talent and skill are two separate factors in Starcraft. You can practice and train and become more skilled, but some people are more innately talented at the types of thinking and hand control that you need for top level RTS play. There are plenty of people who try to go pro, particularly in Korea, and put in just as much time as the top pros, but never get to that level. They might be very good by your average high ladder player's standards, but they'll never be a real contender against the top pros. IIRC, IdrA says it works like this: up to the very top level, it's mostly about how much time and effort you put in. At the very top level, *everyone* puts in a huge amount of time and effort, so the difference between say, a player who's top 10 in the world and a player who's "only" top 100, is mostly about innate talent. altho what you say can/is true, aint gonna argue that, but what also matters if what kind of people you got around you? How do you practice and do you are in good mental/phisical shape? Gaming is much more then just pratice 800 hours a minute and grinding out huge amount of games. People lost games cause they where ill, overconfident and that stuff. You need skil ofc, but i think a litlebit of luck also helps | ||
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crystyxn
Romania254 Posts
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
On March 22 2011 22:26 crystyxn wrote: If you have an open mind you can learn anything, even those reflexes that people think are 'natural born' I think its a general consensus that everything physical is possible by almost anyone.. ie anyone could get in the 300+ APM range if they practiced it daily. (unless they have some sort of physical handicap, of course) the mental game is what I think cant be totally trained. Its why anyone can go learn how to play "shred" guitar and play like Steve Vai or etc solos in a matter of years, but to write songs like Steve Vai or top musicians, is a whole other bag of worms. | ||
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
On March 22 2011 22:26 crystyxn wrote: If you have an open mind you can learn anything, even those reflexes that people think are 'natural born' Its simply not true. Some people are better at some things than other people. Yes, you can IMPROVE pretty much any skill and become alot better than you probably think you can, but some people are just, for example, better at multitasking than others and they will excel at things that require that skill. | ||
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EG.lectR
United States617 Posts
On March 22 2011 22:48 Skyze wrote: I think its a general consensus that everything physical is possible by almost anyone.. ie anyone could get in the 300+ APM range if they practiced it daily. (unless they have some sort of physical handicap, of course) the mental game is what I think cant be totally trained. Its why anyone can go learn how to play "shred" guitar and play like Steve Vai or etc solos in a matter of years, but to write songs like Steve Vai or top musicians, is a whole other bag of worms. I don't think it's a general consensus that everything physical can be accomplished by almost anyone. If that were the case and it would be that nonchalantly believed, the Olympics wouldn't be held in such high regard (within each nation, that is). Plus, if we say, "well, if someone practiced it daily..." you're essentially making an impossibly irrelevant situation because you're saying that if we put everyone in the exact same situation, with the exact same mindset, same endurance, same physique, and so forth and we all tested them, everyone would achieve the same thing. How in the world would you ever test that in reality? You can't and therefore the fact that someone practices something every day and you are currently not doing so, is proof that they have something you don't...be it mentality, commitment, etc. You can't just ignore those factors and say "if I had..." and then state you'd be on the same level in the end without first actually placing yourself in the situation. Overall, you're ignoring all the many environmental, social, emotional, and other reasons that have shaped Michael Jordan to stand out of the crowd. Unless you have some device that can extract everything that is Michael Jordan and then infuse into your being, you cannot create a hypothetical situation with impossible variables. It renders the entire example inapplicable and useless. | ||
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Selkie
United States530 Posts
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Buddhist
United States658 Posts
-- I never needed to practice much to be decent at SC2. A couple examples: When I first got into SC2 beta, I took my placement matches first, before playing a single game, and placed into platinum (which was then the highest league), and I never played SC:BW seriously or recently. I never really laddered or played much in general, but always maintained a skill level equal to what is now about 3200 master (low master). I was technically inactive in ladder until yesterday, and since then I've played like 12 games to get into Master league. However, I would say that it's not "natural" at all. It's all learned, but whether or not you learn what you need to learn is based on non-starcraft related things. For example, I'm a very logical person. When something I do doesn't work, I immediately identify the problem and rectify it. I analyze what's important and what isn't in the game, and when I do play the game, I spend my time intelligently to actually improve. I never get angry at the game, or at anyone I play with or against. I simply identify what I did wrong. Another important factor is that my multitasking and mental clock skills were honed to very high degrees by playing a Rogue at a professional level in WoW arena. Keeping up rupture, which lasts 16 seconds at max, is very similar to making a new probe every 17 seconds, for example. Maintaining rupture, poisons, positioning, cooldowns, stuns, and keeping situational awareness all at the same time is very easy to equate to necessary skills in SC2. Skill in multitasking, objective reasoning, hand eye coordination, and speed, is obviously genetic in some ways. However, genetics only gives a passive bonus to a person's skills. I don't think there's any reason to believe that there's any person without physical or mental disabilities who can't achieve the same level of skill in any of those areas as any pro SC2 player today. The amount of work it would take to get there is what will vary. I think the best example of APM, especially because it's basically capped by the game itself as well. A) Most pros don't use an amount of APM that certainly any one can obtain (500 burst), B) the game basically has a cap on how much APM you'll ever need, which is lower than any healthy human's physical APM cap. -- TL;DR: I barely have to practice SC2 to improve, but I think the explanation is more a fact that I've learned all of the skills necessary in SC2 already, and I look at the game objectively, rather than natural talent. It's also likely that no human has reached the skill cap of any of the skills necessary in SC2, meaning that a person of any genetic make up could probably reach a skill level higher than any current pro SC2 player. The only difference will be the difficulty of achieving it. | ||
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Doraemon.doraemon
United States335 Posts
practice and preparation weigh the most... though practicing and preparing efficiently is a talent too... | ||
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Hypatio
549 Posts
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lindn
Sweden833 Posts
On March 21 2011 22:18 JeLLe04 wrote: Hey, guys. My friend and I were talking about this last night after watching Destiny answer some questions on Reddit (I wanna be a pro, how much do you make, how do I join ROOT, etc. etc.) and it got me to wondering - how much of a given person's success in SC2 can be attributed to a natural affinity for the game or for video games in general? I say none, my friend says a lot. His argument is that SC2 is just like any other sport. Nearly all of the players in the NHL, NFL, MLB, etc., got to that league through a combination of favorable circumstances, loads of practice, and natural skill. However, SC2 is different in that one's physical qualities have almost no bearing on gameplay - the exception would be hand speed and reflexes, which, in my opinion, can be trained. My stance (and Destiny's, from what I could tell) is that even the lowliest Bronze player could theoretically make it to the GSL one day, with a metric fuckton of work and a lot of dedication. Look at Koreans, for instance. Koreans are typically better at SC2 for one of two possible reasons. The first is that Koreans are just born with a Gauss rifle in their hands and are veritable SC gods from the moment they exit the womb; the other is that Korean family values tend to stress hard work and dedication much more than the typical American family does, and Koreans therefore just work much harder at the game. What do you guys think? If you're high Diamond or Masters, do you think you've worked enough to deserve it, or do you think you were just "born that way"? personally i hate people who blames them being bad on that they don't have talent for that particulary thing. for example, how many times do you hear people saying "ooomg i wish i could draw but i don't have the talent"? far to much. everyone who's good at drawing are good at drawing because they put a fuckload of time into it. then comes people who doesn't draw even a smudge of the amount good people do, complaining that they can't draw and they never improve even though they won't even look at what they're doing and try to improve. the same thing adds on to everything. sports and esports alike. in SC2 you do not have talent, only hard fucking work. some might be more successful than others due to generally being better at strategic thinking, this is one thing that you can have already from early years of your life. but there is NOTHING that stops anyone from simply practicing those small issues they have. talent does not exist, only hard work. Practicing and analyzing what you need to improve on, then practicing that thing over and over is the only way to become good at ANYTHING. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
I think anyone that is an aspiring pro gamer should probably be able to dominate low level tournaments playing casually before they think about dedicating all their time to it. | ||
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RukKus
United States197 Posts
For example, I have been having a rough time on ladder recently. I took some time on my breaks at work to watch live streams. I examined how the Pros thought processes work, the movements of their mouse, what they were observing on the screen... then when I booted up the ladder again I went 10 win, 2 loss! Not only that, but I had greater confidence. It felt as if my skill increased by a large margin seemingly overnight. Not only that, I didn't play an hour of starcraft. I won't quote my whole shpiel again (I've said it many times in other threads) but basically, there are psych studies that conclude that observational learning is just as good as practice. And I feel that watching Pros play SC2 (not just for entertainment, but STUDYING and LEARNING from them) can be at times better than actually playing SC2. Don't misinterpret what I tell you -- it still is required you play SC2 to get better!!!! But the biggest part of SC2 is not the physical aspect but the mental, and if you can mentally train your SC2 without actually playing, but studying PROPER techniques by pros, you will benefit!! | ||
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