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On March 16 2011 12:27 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 12:25 DystopiaX wrote:On March 16 2011 12:22 Icekommander wrote:On March 16 2011 12:14 Zeke50100 wrote:
If it really was all about where the money went, and the economy of the e-sports community, you would just give the teams $100,000, instead of barring Koreans from participating in a legitimate fashion so you can ensure that "NA gets the money". Ok, I didn't think I'd have to talk about the other part of the economy, but I guess I do. Let me ask you this, where is the money for NASL season 4 going to come from? You can just pay-out 400,000 dollars. Yay us! Teams can all set up team houses. Except then that 400,000$ would be gone, and the teams will disappear if some new event doesn't come along to keep supplying money. But if you make it a tournament, the givers can get money back. Advertising and sponsorship and all that. This will result in a greater amount of money in the econom , and allow NASL to go to seasons 4/5/6 ect. As well as you know, putting on a tournament and giving us something to watch and all that. Why just have your cake, if you can eat it too? Most teams don't support themselves with prize money, they get it through corporate sponsorships. Which are doing fine. Without the NASL. His point still stands. What he was saying is the NASL can't just give out their money if they really were so interested in making sure western players got the money. I know it's easy to get confused because the original quote that he quoted was so absurd that... yeah.
Says the person who doesn't understand what implications would most likely be made if the most popular section of e-sports was barred in the first place.
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Here's how I see it:
If you're trying to sell yourself as the greatest SC2 tournament in the west, you don't tell players "Sorry, you can't play, you're too good." It would be absolutely retarded to deny players like MC and July while accepting random Code A'ers. NASL would never want to live with the stigma of admitting that their best players can't hang with the best in the world.
With that said, I don't believe more than 10 or so Koreans should be invited, even though there will probably be 30 Koreans who deserve invites, because we need to keep things diverse. I think it's a good idea to invite people from different countries even if their gameplay is not quite as strong, from a PR standpoint, you want every country to have a couple of representatives. I also see nothing wrong with inviting people who have great personalities to make them fan favorites and increase the hype. Remember how GSL stacked the brackets for NaDa and BoxeR originally? If they're not good enough, they'll naturally fall away after a season or two.
I guess it could be argued that this is a western league, and thus we should restrict entries to westerners, but I don't think that's fair with the game being so new. If westerners want to beat Koreans, they should start training like Koreans. Look at Jinro; he reached his potential as soon as he joined the oGs house and started training all day. There are lots of other guys who can do the same thing if they dedicate themselves, and reach a GSL Code S level. The existence of a tournament like this gives them incentive to do so, which is why the NASL is so great in the first place.
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Well I read this thread until page 40, and I must say that this whole issue, as well as the NASL in general, is actually an eye-opener, and a good reality check for the foreign scene.
To win a war, you got to become war.
Foreigners definitely need to step their game up. Get team houses, and be DEDICATED. They need to become full-time progamers, or else they'll never truly be top players and we'll see a repeat of the BW situation.
Really it's all about dedication.
edit, comparing NASL to GSL is kind of irrelevant. The format is too different.
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On March 16 2011 12:30 Cel.erity wrote:
Here's how I see it:
If you're trying to sell yourself as the greatest SC2 tournament in the west, you don't tell players "Sorry, you can't play, you're too good." It would be absolutely retarded to deny players like MC and July while accepting random Code A'ers. NASL would never want to live with the stigma of admitting that their best players can't hang with the best in the world.
With that said, I don't believe more than 10 or so Koreans should be invited, even though there will probably be 30 Koreans who deserve invites, because we need to keep things diverse. I think it's a good idea to invite people from different countries even if their gameplay is not quite as strong, from a PR standpoint, you want every country to have a couple of representatives. I also see nothing wrong with inviting people who have great personalities to make them fan favorites and increase the hype. Remember how GSL stacked the brackets for NaDa and BoxeR originally? If they're not good enough, they'll naturally fall away after a season or two.
I guess it could be argued that this is a western league, and thus we should restrict entries to westerners, but I don't think that's fair with the game being so new. If westerners want to beat Koreans, they should start training like Koreans. Look at Jinro; he reached his potential as soon as he joined the oGs house and started training all day. There are lots of other guys who can do the same thing if they dedicate themselves, and reach a GSL Code S level. The existence of a tournament like this gives them incentive to do so, which is why the NASL is so great in the first place.
Well said sir
+1
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On March 16 2011 12:29 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 12:27 Chicane wrote:On March 16 2011 12:25 DystopiaX wrote:On March 16 2011 12:22 Icekommander wrote:On March 16 2011 12:14 Zeke50100 wrote:
If it really was all about where the money went, and the economy of the e-sports community, you would just give the teams $100,000, instead of barring Koreans from participating in a legitimate fashion so you can ensure that "NA gets the money". Ok, I didn't think I'd have to talk about the other part of the economy, but I guess I do. Let me ask you this, where is the money for NASL season 4 going to come from? You can just pay-out 400,000 dollars. Yay us! Teams can all set up team houses. Except then that 400,000$ would be gone, and the teams will disappear if some new event doesn't come along to keep supplying money. But if you make it a tournament, the givers can get money back. Advertising and sponsorship and all that. This will result in a greater amount of money in the econom , and allow NASL to go to seasons 4/5/6 ect. As well as you know, putting on a tournament and giving us something to watch and all that. Why just have your cake, if you can eat it too? Most teams don't support themselves with prize money, they get it through corporate sponsorships. Which are doing fine. Without the NASL. His point still stands. What he was saying is the NASL can't just give out their money if they really were so interested in making sure western players got the money. I know it's easy to get confused because the original quote that he quoted was so absurd that... yeah. Says the person who doesn't understand what implications would most likely be made if the most popular section of e-sports was barred in the first place.
Lol what? I am in favor of allowing Koreans to play... but go back and read what you said in the first post that was quoted... it made no sense. Handing out $100,000 if they really wanted Westerners to have the money is not a feasible idea, which is what the guy responded to directly, and what I was also referring to.
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On March 16 2011 12:29 raf3776 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 12:22 DystopiaX wrote:On March 16 2011 12:15 raf3776 wrote:On March 16 2011 12:07 FXOpen wrote:
Any tournmanet discriminating on race/colour/creed/nationality, should take a long hard look at itself. Turn the tables around, lets say the US had GSL and NASL was in Korea.. How would you feel if someone said "cos you're american, you're not allowed to play sorry"...
To be honest, its kinda racist. 100% agree. segregation in sports were never helpful to the sports scene. A "cap" or restriction of "koreans" becasue theyre the best is hurtful to the scene. Its like baseball restricting minorities from playing in the MLB. Wasnt a good idea then and I dont see how it would be a good idea now. People saying "theyre the best" can be excluded from the argument if you include any of the foreign code S players. Jinro can compete with the best in GSL should we not let him participate as well? Or do we include him because he isnt korean. Example, MLB used to not let black people play (out of racism, not saying that for this point). they let Jackie Robinson play, the world didn't explode or leave, the MLB didn't lose popularity because he "wasn't like them". idk if your agreeing or disagreeing lol but the arguments to not let koreans into the league is racist. You cant say skill level because huk, idra, jinro are competing with the code S players so wed have to exclude them as well. We cant say its based on GSL statistics because than code A/B players would be able to participate as they arent the "top" players.
I'm agreeing with you. either they say it's because they're "in Korea/Korean based" in which you have to exclude half of TL, or they're saying "they don't speak English, we can't connect with them" which
1. is racist
and
2. is solved through use of a translator.
if they say "but Korean people aren't interesting" then
1. That's racist
and
2. they're wrong. Zenio/Clide group pick, MC smack proved that. Boxer is well known for being popular, is he boring?
edit- or they're saying that NA people need to be given a chance, to which I say
the best players should play, NA people are given a chance in every tourney, they just need to beat the best. Fairly.
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On March 16 2011 11:40 Zeri wrote:
This thread of how many Koreans should be allowed into NASL has prompted some very important discussion that will decide how the esports culture grows in the West.
The argument essentially boils down to 2 different views:
A) WE NEED TO EXCLUDE KOREANS (or a small cap at like 5) because we need Western gamers beating western gamers and westerners taking home the money. Then a western culture of training for NASL will arise, there will be more western interest - more money and this will allow us to have Western team pro houses and then we can finally be as good as Koreans.
B) WE NEED TO INVITE PLENTY OF THE BEST KOREANS because this will foster consistent competition between western gamers and Korean gamers. And the more often they play together the better the western gamers will get. And with more consistent Korean appearances in the West, the esports culture in Korea will spill over to the West and it will be just as big.
Whichever mode is chosen by NASL will greatly influence on how an esports culture is created in the west.
The rationalization for excluding Koreans is that if they came and dominated the NASL, then everyone would just simply acknowledge that Korea is better and either go there to play professionally or quit because they can’t compete with what the Koreans have. And that it would be a better alternative for the NASL to strictly invite Westerners so that the money and fame stays in the west which will promote more sponsors and more money and hopefully American pro houses and then we can finally get as good as the Koreans.
The argument for inviting a bunch of Koreans is that even though they might all take out every single white guy, is that it will establish a culture where Koreans and westerners are playing eachother, and if NASL continues into more seasons, then they will establish a consistent environment for Koreans and westerns to play and practice together especially if NASL requires koreans to be here instead of online matches, then we have the possibility of Koreans coming to stay and play in American gaming houses (Even if only for a short time)
As you can see this is getting in a 'which came first, the chicken or the egg' type deal.
Do we get as good as the koreans and make esports big here? or do we make esports big here so that we can get as good as the koreans?
Here is how I see it: Our emphasis has to be on getting the top NA players as good as the top KR players first. And to do that, we go with B). We cannont emphasize creating a giant esports culture around being the not-best at starcraft. It won’t grow.
NASL has a brilliant opportunity here to make esports huge in the West, and I can see how a lot of people really want to see a westerner taking that money home. But what every western sc2 fan wants more than seeing a western guy take home that money, is an established esports culture much like there exists in Korea.
This is what NASL can do. They can either exclude Koreans for the most part, ensuring a westerner takes home some good money OR they can allow a bunch of top level Koreans come over and play. Establishing an environment where top westerns play against top Koreans, and finally allowing the Korean esports scene to spill over to the west.
Here is the problem: NASL will never HAVE the best Korean players, and therefore will never get to play them, because even with NASL the Korean scene is larger than the foreign scene. There is more money in GSL and NASL, and instead of MVP and MC, we will get Ace and Moon. And as soon as Ace or Moon get good enough, they'll head right back over to play GSL.
In addition, I fail to see how the Korean e-sports culture will just spill over. Let's say ten Code A level players similar in skill to Ace and Moon move over to America in a team house or two. they will mostly practise with each other, because most of the foreigners will be relatively crap. And then they will enter more tournaments than just NASL. how the heck are guys like DIMANGA supposed to compete when the Koreans start playing in the Go4SCII cups?
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My only beef with inviting too many Koreans is the impact is may have after the NASL. NASL is the biggest thing (prize wise) we've seen in North America for Starcraft 2, and I bet a lot of eyes are watching it. Imagine you're someone with the power to bring SC2 to let's say an American TV station. You may love Starcraft, but you also have an obligation as a businessperson. Now if you're trying to appeal to an American audience, and any tournament will either get rocked by Koreans or criticized for not having the best (Korean) players, you'll find yourself hard-pressed to get more support from your organization.
For the NASL itself, if they're looking for the absolute best players then including Koreans is absolutely necessary. But from the entire vibe of the NASL they're looking for something more as well. They're looking to form relationships, rivalries, backstories, and it's hard to form relationships among Koreans and NA/EU players when they're nearly two separate Starcraft scenes.
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On March 16 2011 12:32 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 12:29 Zeke50100 wrote:On March 16 2011 12:27 Chicane wrote:On March 16 2011 12:25 DystopiaX wrote:On March 16 2011 12:22 Icekommander wrote:On March 16 2011 12:14 Zeke50100 wrote:
If it really was all about where the money went, and the economy of the e-sports community, you would just give the teams $100,000, instead of barring Koreans from participating in a legitimate fashion so you can ensure that "NA gets the money". Ok, I didn't think I'd have to talk about the other part of the economy, but I guess I do. Let me ask you this, where is the money for NASL season 4 going to come from? You can just pay-out 400,000 dollars. Yay us! Teams can all set up team houses. Except then that 400,000$ would be gone, and the teams will disappear if some new event doesn't come along to keep supplying money. But if you make it a tournament, the givers can get money back. Advertising and sponsorship and all that. This will result in a greater amount of money in the econom , and allow NASL to go to seasons 4/5/6 ect. As well as you know, putting on a tournament and giving us something to watch and all that. Why just have your cake, if you can eat it too? Most teams don't support themselves with prize money, they get it through corporate sponsorships. Which are doing fine. Without the NASL. His point still stands. What he was saying is the NASL can't just give out their money if they really were so interested in making sure western players got the money. I know it's easy to get confused because the original quote that he quoted was so absurd that... yeah. Says the person who doesn't understand what implications would most likely be made if the most popular section of e-sports was barred in the first place. Lol what? I am in favor of allowing Koreans to play... but go back and read what you said in the first post that was quoted... it made no sense. Handing out $100,000 if they really wanted Westerners to have the money is not a feasible idea, which is what the guy responded to directly, and what I was also referring to.
I didn't literally mean "hand a check for $100,000" over to them. I meant that if they were so worried, they would build up SEPARATE sponsorships and fund-raising, rather than cutting into the tournament itself (which would essentially kill a large portion of the credibility and reliability of the tournament, resulting in fewer people wanting to sponsor an event that is sub-par, which means there's less money flowing in the end).
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As far as I know, the issue is already decided by the NASL comitee, they will invite some Korean players, not 50, not zero, but some. I personally think it's the best course of action.
For those advocating ban on Korean players:
Foreign talent ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS enriches a league. Take a look at European soccer leagues such as Premier League or La Liga. Look at NBA, look at MLB, look at UFC. Seriously, look at those and tell me if those would be the same if they banned other nationalities other than the host country. Korean players should be invited if NASL is to be considered a serious professional league.
For those advocating as many Korean players as possible:
This is not as stupid as considering ban on Koreans, but it shouldn't be like that. I think 5 would be ideal. NASL should focus on giving NA players exposure, allowing the scene to grow. La Liga and Serie A limiting(again, limiting, not banning) the number of foreigners that can be on a team is not xenophobia, it's legitimate concern for the home grown talent pool. Premier League is the best league overall, but take a look at the English National Team, it's lacking talent. The young and up-and-coming players are not getting enough playing time, thus the talent that should be flourishing is being stomped on before it sees the sunlight. That's at least as I see it.
My 2 cents.
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On March 16 2011 06:42 motbob wrote:
Forget the NASL intro video. "The best players the world has ever seen?" If that were their goal, they'd invite 30 Koreans. The NASL's goal is entertainment, and they have a very specific mindset about how to achieve that goal. We've seen that a big part of the league is about drama and storylines.
I would say it's inaccurate to state that IdrA, Jinro and Tyler are not capable of being within the top ten of all professional players in the world.
Bearing this in mind i think it would be reasonable to invite koreans on a 1/3 or 1/4 ratio with foreigners.
I honestly think that if the likes of Tyler and IdrA are thrown in with code S caliber Koreans in this tournament the finals will be simply amazing, and can you honestly say that if Tyler were fighting MKP in the finals of the NASL that you wouldn't watch?
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On March 16 2011 12:11 Icekommander wrote:
Why the top-tier Koreans shouldn't be in the NASL
The GSL is the absolute pinnacle of SCII skill. Players such as MVP, MC and Nestea are Monsters at the game, and can destroy most of their opposition with ease. This season was something of a hiccup, but I'd bet on MC being the first player to take two GSL seasons.
So doesn't this make them top choices for the NASL? That depends on what you want from the NASL. Did we want another GSl esque "Let the Most Skillfull take home the money"? Or did we want the NASL to be the "Pinnacle of Foreign play?"
At the moment they are quite different. Quite a few foreigners got blocked from the GSL at various points. Players such as InControL and Kiwikaki got blocked from Season 3, and this season Ret, Moonglade and Haypro couldn't make it past ro32 Code A. There are three foreign players who are noticeable in the Korean scene (Idra, Jinro, HuK), of the 15-20 who have tried at one point or another.
It is also important to note IEM. Moon, Ace and Squirtle are hardly the pinnacle of Korean play. All three of them just got demoted to Code B, yet they wiped out the best the rest of the world could offer. TSL 3 will probably repeat this process.
So we can safely assume that the Koreans will rampage through the NASL like nobody's business. I mean, who really thinks that if we have MKP, MC, Nestea, and MVP in NASL, that more than one foreigner can make top 4? It would be domination. Maybe Tyler or White-Ra gets lucky and takes one out, but we aren't likely to see more than one or two.
So let's say that our top four are MVP, MC, Tyler Nestea (1st/2nd/3rd/4th). we don't have the NASL prize distribution yet, but according to liquipedia the GSL pays 140,000,000 of 200,000,000 Won to 1st/2nd/4th, about 70%. Of the 100,000$ that various foreign sources pump into the NASL, 70% of that money just gets pumped right back to Korea, Korean players, Korean Teams.
And this will hurt the Foreign scene. Money is important, it is what will ultimately allow the foreign scene to stay competitive with Korea, or fall behind. If this 70,000$ goes to players and teams like qxc, Select, Tyler, and Liquid/root/mouz, it will allow players to quit jobs (and therefor play full-time SCII), and teams to get Korean esque practising set-ups. But if that money goes straight back to Korea, and Korean teams, then the foreigners can't get the support they need to stay relevant.
So the NASL isn't just about skill now. It's about skill later. If we allow the top tier Koreans access now, they'll stomp North America, and take all the money and send it back to Korea. And if we do that, then foreign players can't get the support they need to play as the Koreans do, allowing Korea to just widen the skill-gap more and more.
So you think it's better for a tournament to suffer because some players need a bye for some reason cause they aren't practicing enough or against current strategies to become better? No one ever imagined Grrr... dominating like he did and royal roading OSL back in 2000. If other NA players had his dedication matched will skill then we wouldn't have to exclude people because they have their shit together more, right?
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OMG just do it like the tsl...no one was complaining with the selections there. No offense to all the amateur players but Im not really interested in watching low level games. I wanna see idra, nestea, mc, mvp, jinro, tlo, marineking, morrow etc etc.
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I think it stupid to ban the Korean from coming here to compete, when we the one that goes over to their country to compete, and they welcome us with no restriction. So why are we being an ass and start making up Rules as we goes along, because we afraid that the Korean will dominate us. How can us American get any better if we cant be sportsmanship.
The Korean are the one that MADE e-sport what it is today, not the AMERICAN! So have this NASL be open to anyone.
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Well numbers are speaking for themselves. The majority wants no limit on koreans and I sincerely hope the NASL committee changes their mind to account for that.
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Isn't this actually illegal? Or at least it is if they don't count someone like jinro as korean.
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On March 16 2011 12:32 Icekommander wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:40 Zeri wrote:
This thread of how many Koreans should be allowed into NASL has prompted some very important discussion that will decide how the esports culture grows in the West.
The argument essentially boils down to 2 different views:
A) WE NEED TO EXCLUDE KOREANS (or a small cap at like 5) because we need Western gamers beating western gamers and westerners taking home the money. Then a western culture of training for NASL will arise, there will be more western interest - more money and this will allow us to have Western team pro houses and then we can finally be as good as Koreans.
B) WE NEED TO INVITE PLENTY OF THE BEST KOREANS because this will foster consistent competition between western gamers and Korean gamers. And the more often they play together the better the western gamers will get. And with more consistent Korean appearances in the West, the esports culture in Korea will spill over to the West and it will be just as big.
Whichever mode is chosen by NASL will greatly influence on how an esports culture is created in the west.
The rationalization for excluding Koreans is that if they came and dominated the NASL, then everyone would just simply acknowledge that Korea is better and either go there to play professionally or quit because they can’t compete with what the Koreans have. And that it would be a better alternative for the NASL to strictly invite Westerners so that the money and fame stays in the west which will promote more sponsors and more money and hopefully American pro houses and then we can finally get as good as the Koreans.
The argument for inviting a bunch of Koreans is that even though they might all take out every single white guy, is that it will establish a culture where Koreans and westerners are playing eachother, and if NASL continues into more seasons, then they will establish a consistent environment for Koreans and westerns to play and practice together especially if NASL requires koreans to be here instead of online matches, then we have the possibility of Koreans coming to stay and play in American gaming houses (Even if only for a short time)
As you can see this is getting in a 'which came first, the chicken or the egg' type deal.
Do we get as good as the koreans and make esports big here? or do we make esports big here so that we can get as good as the koreans?
Here is how I see it: Our emphasis has to be on getting the top NA players as good as the top KR players first. And to do that, we go with B). We cannont emphasize creating a giant esports culture around being the not-best at starcraft. It won’t grow.
NASL has a brilliant opportunity here to make esports huge in the West, and I can see how a lot of people really want to see a westerner taking that money home. But what every western sc2 fan wants more than seeing a western guy take home that money, is an established esports culture much like there exists in Korea.
This is what NASL can do. They can either exclude Koreans for the most part, ensuring a westerner takes home some good money OR they can allow a bunch of top level Koreans come over and play. Establishing an environment where top westerns play against top Koreans, and finally allowing the Korean esports scene to spill over to the west.
Here is the problem: NASL will never HAVE the best Korean players, and therefore will never get to play them, because even with NASL the Korean scene is larger than the foreign scene. There is more money in GSL and NASL, and instead of MVP and MC, we will get Ace and Moon. And as soon as Ace or Moon get good enough, they'll head right back over to play GSL. In addition, I fail to see how the Korean e-sports culture will just spill over. Let's say ten Code A level players similar in skill to Ace and Moon move over to America in a team house or two. they will mostly practise with each other, because most of the foreigners will be relatively crap. And then they will enter more tournaments than just NASL. how the heck are guys like DIMANGA supposed to compete when the Koreans start playing in the Go4SCII cups?
They won't instantly be able to beat Koreans now obviously but if they are playing Koreans on a more consistent basis then the skill gap will decrease. It takes time. The best thing NA players can do right now is play against the top Korean players and get the shit kicked out of them over and over. That is how they will get better. This has been said over and over in this thread. which led to what I posted.
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On March 16 2011 12:44 thepotatoman wrote:
Isn't this actually illegal? Or at least if they don't count someone like jinro as korean.
Illegal? To choose what players you want to play in your league? They could pick 50 platinum-level players from Arkansas to play if they wanted, of course it's not illegal, what are you talking about?
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On March 16 2011 12:44 thepotatoman wrote:
Isn't this actually illegal? Or at least it is if they don't count someone like jinro as korean.
I don't think there's anything wrong with it if they just ban all Korean-based players, but if they ban all nonwhite Korean-based players it could be illegal. I'm not sure how that really works in the US though.
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On March 16 2011 12:44 thepotatoman wrote:
Isn't this actually illegal? Or at least it is if they don't count someone like jinro as korean.
No, it isnt illegal at all.
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EPT
