|
Sweden33719 Posts
On March 13 2011 03:37 Jayrod wrote:
I believe the stim nerf was specifically to eliminate the timing window where terrans would have stim but baneling speed hadn't quite finished. Its a really scary timing for a zerg. I think a side effect is making it easier to bust a terran fast expand with a couple timing push options.
... Removing all timing pushes isnt good =/
|
*generic protoss QQ about amulet nerf still being there and some mention of how emp still OP*
lol I mean from my own personal play I have noticed a few things, EMP is easier to get off than feedback and you can't storm a good spot if you trying to storm b4 the emp. I don't even know how to deal with good emp using terrans in this game as it is and now no amulet.......Yeah this game is totally better than BW........ >.>
|
On March 13 2011 04:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:37 Jayrod wrote:
I believe the stim nerf was specifically to eliminate the timing window where terrans would have stim but baneling speed hadn't quite finished. Its a really scary timing for a zerg. I think a side effect is making it easier to bust a terran fast expand with a couple timing push options.
... Removing all timing pushes isnt good =/
Correction: removing all TERRAN timing is not good, eh, eh.
But seriously, this is the easiest way to fix this problem. The stim push is the hardest timming attack to stop, if they go ahead with the nerf then terrans will just have to adapt. Dw about it, if anyone can find a way to flip this nerf, you can.
|
new fungal will be fun to use =]
|
Funny that nobody mentions Cattlebruiser speed buffs. They are awesome. Definitely will be used more in team games since they dominate air with yamato guns.
And also it might change terran late game at high level.
|
On March 13 2011 04:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:37 Jayrod wrote:
I believe the stim nerf was specifically to eliminate the timing window where terrans would have stim but baneling speed hadn't quite finished. Its a really scary timing for a zerg. I think a side effect is making it easier to bust a terran fast expand with a couple timing push options.
... Removing all timing pushes isnt good =/
Removing timings from T and giving them to Z isn't a bad thing either though, you are looking at this too strongly from one angle.
|
On March 13 2011 04:56 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 04:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 13 2011 03:37 Jayrod wrote:
I believe the stim nerf was specifically to eliminate the timing window where terrans would have stim but baneling speed hadn't quite finished. Its a really scary timing for a zerg. I think a side effect is making it easier to bust a terran fast expand with a couple timing push options.
... Removing all timing pushes isnt good =/ Removing timings from T and giving them to Z isn't a bad thing either though, you are looking at this too strongly from one angle.
I kind of agree with this.
|
On March 13 2011 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Stim change still sucks, it makes no sense - when was the last time terran did something that mmade you go "Man, if only stim was 30 seconds slower"?
Just gonna fuck up early game TvP and TvZ =/
Well, actually I think many zergs have though exactly that while they are frantically trying to spread that early creep that can help us get that crucial surround.
|
On March 12 2011 22:10 CreepCrepe wrote:
Infestor still nerfed. Cool beans.
This still a huge buff, and i would rather have instant cast than missile than +20 health.
imagine if you have 3 infestors with 150 energy.
=6 fungal growths/ or 3 funglas on an entire protoss ball due to the size
So a Protoss ball with 30 Armored units comes at you, with 2 fungals you should be able to hit the entire army correct?
so 1 fungal on a armored unit does 45 damage/ 4 seconds
1 fungal on 30 armored units does 1350 damage/ 4 seconds
3 fungals on 30 armored units does 4050 damage/12 seconds
PRE PATCH
1 fungal 35 damage/8 seconds
1 fungal on 30 units = 1050 damage/ 8 seconds
3 fungals on 30 units= 3150 damage/24 seconds
The diffence between 24 seconds and 12 seconds is massive. Having a few infestors fungaling the protoss ball while fighting with roach hydra will become the meta game in zvp.
this will also change zvz due to the roach being armored, it could completely kill off the hydra.
I CANNOT WAIT!! 
|
i see nothing but bad things coming from this patch.
Sure a minor part of the issue with stim was that it came out early, but it was never the major point of argument. Adding 30 seconds is gonna do nothing but make it harder for terran to hold early pushes. Personally I don't think its a great addition.
EMP nerf does not affect the ghost vs. ht matchup at all, so the only other thing that I can think of is sentries. I suppose it's good since sentries usually tend to build up more than 100 energy, and if emp'd now they can still drop one or two ff's. However, if this nerf was intended to balance the KA removal, i'll lol quite a bit.
And by now you can tell that I'm one of the many brotoss not in favor of a KA removal, but in favor of a CD on storm upon warp-in.
I guess the infestor stuff seems to be pretty good from this patch, gives zerg some much needed dps against marine balls.
Overall though, I don't see many good changes from this patch. Things that should've worked in the first place (charge on zealots, battlecruiser speed) are finally being fixed, and things that it seems blizzard has no idea what to do with are getting nerfed and removed in the most random ways. It's pretty clear that theyre flailing random fixes into the air and testing them out without too much thought on all the implications. Pretty sure I'm gonna get trolled for that statement by someone going "LOL BLIZZARD HAS BEEN DOING THIS A LOT LONGER THAN YOU IDIOT".
|
sweet now even though the infestor is just as weak as before so NP on tanks wont really work like they did on PTR before, this is a massive buff to the current infestor
|
On March 13 2011 04:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:37 Jayrod wrote:
I believe the stim nerf was specifically to eliminate the timing window where terrans would have stim but baneling speed hadn't quite finished. Its a really scary timing for a zerg. I think a side effect is making it easier to bust a terran fast expand with a couple timing push options.
... Removing all timing pushes isnt good =/
Think of it as a shift of power. In fact, one angle of looking at is that there have been 2 timing pushes added to the game and one removed. P/Z have 30 seconds more to attack before stim finishes, while terran stim push gets delayed.
|
I think all the join custom game changes are really cool. This will let good games not known very well to have an easier chance to get higher on the list.
|
On March 13 2011 04:54 agnu wrote:
new fungal will be fun to use =]
Only difference is damage to armored, not really much new.
|
so zerg "nerf" isn't happening, and terran is getting nerfed more?
|
Perhaps this goes without saying, but the EMP nerf will make them less effective against infestors.
Currently infestors are usually countered by siege tanks, and that'll still work very well. However with fungal growth gaining a much higher burst damage, perhaps ghosts will become more popular? A more direct counter similar to getting them to snipe/EMP templars in TvP. Seems the change may have been made with this 'caster vs. caster' counter play in mind. Ensuring that EMP doesn't have an overwhelming advantage if one tries to counter infestors with ghosts.
Infestors are MUCH more likely to be high in energy compared to templar.
All the casters are getting a big (on paper) change in 1.3's recent notes, so it's probably best to consider how this can affect all matchups instead of the obvious TvP stuff where emp has always been particularly good (compared to TvZ and TvT)
|
On March 13 2011 01:21 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 01:06 Grumbels wrote:On March 13 2011 00:58 TeWy wrote:
Why are they obsessed about details when there basically are units in SC2 that you almost never see at the Master/semi-pro/pro level ?
It would be so better if they made the hydraliskoffcreep/archons/mothership/ultralisks/warp-prism/reapers/carriers/raven decent instead of nerfing every good units.
What will happen if even before the 2 expansions each race has 2-3 SC1 scout-like unit ???
All these things are interconnected btw... Maybe if Warp-prism was really good, I mean having more than 140 HP an not being absolutely outrun by muta and stimmed-marines, Protoss could rely on multi-task instead of this gigantic stupid deathball of HT/Colossi, thus we wouldn't have to whine about an eventual Khaldarin amulet nerf...
Why is Blizzard obsessed with details? Because they tweaked a unit a little bit? They do that every patch, and it's the reason the balance is actually decent right now. What do you think will happen if they overhaul the game every single patch? Balance is not high because of Blizzard stupid tweaks, let me assure you of that. For playing the game since Beta, I know several nerfs/buffs that have been absolutely catastrophic and that weren't reverted for some reasons (HSM nerf for instance now you NEVER see it, pretty much same thing for reaper and now it will be the same for Mothership), some changes have been made and then have been reverted few months later, Zealot buildtime comes to mind but there are way more... People are getting better and are somehow balancing the game on their own because of the map-making and their sense of timing, that's it... What changes have been detrimental since Beta ? Warp-gate nerf, barrack nerf, stalker buff, roaches nerf, ultralisk buff, nexus HP buff, phoenix buff, on these ones everyone aggree... asides from that ? Probably tank nerf ... asides from that ? That's it. 7-8 good crucial changes out of more than 1 hundred in 1 year, what about the bad changes or the missing changes ? I'm pretty sure the number exceeds 7-8 by quite a lot. Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming I could necessarily do a better job, just that Blizzard balancing process has been very doubtful since Warcraft 3 and WoW.
I'm not sure what you are arguing. I think you just disagree with Blizzard's changes and pretend that it is a philosophical issue about balancing styles or something. You can call them stupid tweaks, but how else are you going to balance a game if not constantly tweaking and adjusting things?
Take the EMP change you were angry about. It makes EMP slightly weaker in some cases, requiring perhaps a few more ghosts per game, or forcing you to face a few more psi-storms or forcefields. That is the balancing part. The design part is the idea that getting one hit off with EMP shouldn't completely cripple all of your preperation, which I think is a good change for future balancing.
Now, what is so bad about this change? It doesn't break the game and possibly improves its design.
Another example, zealot, warpgate buildtimes were slightly changed throughout beta and early retail. Those timings for early units are important to get right as way to build future balance changes around, so it took some time to stabilize it, and now people are happy about it. Again, what is so bad about tweaking the game this way?
And actually, the changes you mentioned as very detrimental aren't tweaks. The seeker missle change was pretty big.
You also claim blizzard shouldn't touch the game and just let the community and maps create balance. What did you think would happen if blizzard hadn't patched the reaper? That somehow the zergs would just get better defending it and then everything would be fine? Or we'd need to create maps without ramps to balance around the reaper's power?
Or a less extreme example: roaches with 3 range made it pretty hard to fight protoss as zerg, should that never have been changed?
It's a bizarre claim in general. Blizzard constantly changed things throughout alpha, beta, even when initially thinking up the units. When should this stop, is there a set date or something where by retail you shouldn't patch the game anymore? You can not believe in imbalance as a personal preference, but blizzard isn't the community, they're the designers and should be very mindful of proper balance. You can get change-whiplash, where the game never becomes stable before something is changed yet again, but that just means you should be careful balancing, not that you should stop at all.
Furthermore, Brood War might have ended up balanced, but wasn't for large periods of time. I don't think it's right to have the game be imbalanced for like a year, and just hoping the community figures something out, because there are actual people playing this professionally, with leagues, sponsors, organizers all dependent on fun and exciting games. You can't just be stubborn with so much on the line, and in any case, the lost opportunity of the magic community insight to fix the match-up isn't really that big of a loss imo.
|
On March 13 2011 06:02 Pug1911 wrote:
Perhaps this goes without saying, but the EMP nerf will make them less effective against infestors.
Currently infestors are usually countered by siege tanks,
You might've hit the nail on the head here. The change increases the viability of siege tanks vs. infestors, reduces the viability of ghosts vs. infestors. Having infestors stronger vs. siege tanks (i.e. with 110 health) and simultaneously nerfing emp vs casters may make infestor play relatively too strong in some situations vs. terran.
of course we're assuming omniscience on the part of the balance team. It could be just a gut feeling shot from the hip on their part too.
But really, 100 energy is still all (more than all?) the energy the HT will ever ever have. so its just a sentry buff vs ghosts in PvT.
|
On March 12 2011 22:17 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:16 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
they nerfs the ghost emp so the protoss players who were complaining about HT should not cry now lol That change only helps if your HTs have 150-200 energy. How often do you see HTs with that much energy?
You rarely see it now, because there is no point in warping in templar that far in advance since you can warp in and storm instantly. But after this patch, it seems much more likely that protoss players will make their templar in advance and save up energy. If you make them ~3-4 minutes before battle, they can cast storm even after being hit by emp, and can cast 2 storms if they don't get hit by emp. That doesn't seem all that unreasonable.
|
Honestly I dont think the Terran changes are going to make things easier for Zerg. 5 extra secs on bunkers is not going to stop bunker rushes, and adding 30 sec to stim means that T is going to hit Zerg with an extra 2 rounds of marines instead. Sure you get an extra round of larvae inject but thats not going to make or break defending vs the larger terran push.
I think the real effect of these changes will make Terrans weaker vs 4-gate, because 5 sec on your bunkers or 30 sec on your stim can make a big difference there. On some maps you cant get a 40 sec warning that a 4gate is coming. Typically you dont repair bunkers much vs Zerg, but you do repair them vs Protoss. And increasing the build time of the bunker means that repair will heal them less damage per second, which is already tough with forcefields. This is dangerous in combination with the HT change, because P will have less incentive to play a macro game.
This is what I think they should do to nerf bunker rushes and stim timing vs Zerg without making them weaker vs 4gate:
Bunker armor decreased from 2 to 1
Salvage effectiveness decreased from 100% to 50%
Neosteel armor research now also increases the armor of bunkers by 2
Stim movement speed bonus decreased from 50% to 33%
These changes would make bunker rushes actually cost something vs Zerg if they fail. They can still work if you invest resources into it, but if the Zerg successful fends it off you're actually punished for it. And by making Neosteel Armor research actually useful, the bunker can remain effective vs 4gate. As an added bonus, in combination with the building armor upgrade, it allows bunkers to be relevant in the mid-late game.
I think nerfing the movement speed portion of stim is the only way to fix the fundamentally broken synergy between stim and concussive shells. Zergs primary advantage vs Terran is the mobility of its units. And stim kiting with Medivac overhead is just too a bit too strong. These change would make it easier for Zergs to fend off fast stim pushes with lings without damaging the Marines role as the dps backbone of the Terran army. It has the sideeffect of making them weaker vs baneling/muta harass, but lets face it, marines are plenty strong against everything else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
