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Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1213111662
Balance
* GENERAL
o Players can no longer hide units by setting them in a close proximity patrol (ex: Viking flower).
* PROTOSS
o Mothership
+ Units leaving the Mothership's Vortex are now un-targetable and immune to damage for 1.5 seconds.
o High Templar
+ Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
o Zealot
+ Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once.
* TERRAN
o Battlecruiser
+ Movement speed increased from 1.406 to 1.875.
o Bunker
+ Build time increased from 35 to 40 seconds.
o Ghost
+ EMP now drains up to 100 energy instead of all available energy. The effect on Protoss shields remains unchanged.
+ Tech Lab
# Stimpack upgrade research time increased from 140 to 170 seconds.
o ZERG
+ Infestor
# Health increased from 90 to 110. -- This change has been revoked.
+ Fungal Growth
# Stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds.
# Damage increased by +30% vs. armored units.
# Now fires a missle instead of being instant cast.
-- This change has been revoked.
General
* Leagues & Ladders
o A new Grandmaster League has been added for 1v1 ladders. This league represents the Top 200 players in each region.
+ Players are automatically drafted into the Grandmaster League shortly after a new season starts, and will remain in the Grandmaster League until the end of the season. If a Grandmaster player’s available bonus points get too high due to inactivity, they will be automatically removed from the league and a replacement player will be drafted in.
+ The Grandmaster League can be viewed by all players through the new Leagues & Ladders > Grandmaster page
.
o The bonus pool has been reduced for arranged teams.
o Leagues will now be locked during the final weeks of the season. As a result players will not accumulate additional bonus points and will not be promoted or demoted out of their current division during this period.
+ This will allow players to focus on moving up in their current league without being promoted during the final weeks of a season, and having to fight their way up from the bottom ranks of their new higher league.
+ Players can still utilize any bonus points they previously accumulated.
o Ladder data from the prior season can be viewed through the new Leagues & Ladders > Last Season page.
o New league icons have been introduced to indicate division rank. These will indicate the Top 8, 25 and 50 players in each division.
o Loss counts are no longer displayed in Profile and Ladder pages for players below Master League.
* Join Custom Game
o Several improvements have been made to the Join Custom Game section:
+ The Details panel has been removed from this page. Map details are now shown inside a tooltip for each game.
+ Players can now bookmark their favorite custom games! The number of times a game has been bookmarked will be shown in that game's tooltip.
+ Games are now organized into several pages to make finding your desired game type easier:
# Featured: Our team is always on the lookout for new games that are lots of fun. Our latest favorites are shown on this page.
# Most Popular: Shows all game types, with the most played games sorted to the top.
# By Category: This page allows you to browse through Custom Games based on Category.
# Up & Coming: This page highlights games that other players are recommending, but haven't yet become popular.
# Fun or Not: From this page you can automatically join a random new Custom Game. After the game, players using Fun or Not are asked to recommend the map (or not). Recommending maps helps get them onto the Up & Coming page.
# Recently Played: The last several games you’ve played are shown here. Use this to quickly get back into games you play often, or to easily bookmark a game you enjoyed playing.
# Bookmarks: Use this page to view your Bookmarked maps.
+ A search option has been added to the Join Custom Game interface.
* Observer and Replay UI
o New panels are now available when observing or viewing a replay of 1v1 games. These panels can be toggled via hotkeys which are shown under the Leader Panel drop-down.
+ Player Name Panel: Displays the players' name, team color, race, and supply count.
+ Stat Comparison Panels: Shows a head-to-head comparison of players' resources, army supply, units killed, or APM.
o In 1v1 observed games, both players’ resource rows are shown in the upper right at the same time.
o The main game UI can now be hidden/shown via hotkey.
o You can now toggle between player unit colors and team unit colors when watching a replay or observing.
* Game Options
o A new Control page is available from the Options menu. You'll find Mouse, Keyboard and Scrolling options within this new page.
o A new menu option is available in the Gameplay page to change the behavior of Control Group Buttons. These can now be set to ignore mouse clicks or be hidden completely.
o The existing menu option under the Gameplay page for Menu Bar Buttons now also supports hiding the Menu Bar.
StarCraft II Editor Improvements
* Improved loading times for some custom maps with complex tech restrictions.
* The compiled script memory has been split into a separate block from the global/local stack block. Additional improvements will be made to provide more memory space in the future.
* Command card editor and actor event editor will now be less vulnerable to data errors from changes made in future patches.
* The game cursor now remains visible while loading maps.
* Debug outputs are now displayed in the editor and in-game when using Test Document.
* Reworked Game Variants dialog to be more user-friendly:
o General tab has been removed. This text did not appear anywhere in game.
o Attributes tab has been split into Game Attributes and Player Attributes.
o Attribute UI now more closely reflects the game lobby.
o Default values are now enforced as necessary based on Player Properties.
* New trigger actions have been added:
o Set Camera Data: Changes the active camera data settings, as defined in the Data module.
o Show/Hide Resource: Shows or hides the specified resource in the UI.
o Lock/Unlock Status Bar: Forces or resets all status bars for a player to a specified state.
o Set Random Seed: Sets the random game seed to the requested value.
o Enable/Disable Selection Type: A new UI Editor action to disable the various ways that players can change their selected unit.
* New trigger functions have been added:
o Convert Game Hotkey: Looks up hotkey as text.
o Convert Game Asset: Looks up asset path as text.
o Add On Child: Returns the child unit attached to the specified parent.
o Add On Parent: Returns the parent unit attached to the specified child.
o Catalog Entry Is Default: Returns if the specified entry is a default.
o Catalog Field Value Get As Integer: Converts the requested field data into an integer, if possible.
* Test Document preferences can now configure an explicit random seed value.
* Automatic backup feature (Preferences > Documents) now includes a User Folder location option, which corresponds to a folder named EditorBackup within your StarCraft II documents folder.
* Units can now specify a revive cost that will override an ability specific cost. Revive cooldowns & charges located on the unit will now be attached to the unit being revived.
* Instant larva-style training will now charge resources properly.
* Upgrades modifying units produced by Arm Magazine, Build, Merge, Morph, Train, and Warp Train abilities are now fully supported.
* The Chance field in effects is now upgradeable.
* Support for browsing Battle.net "Featured" and "Up And Coming" maps in the Open Document window has been added.
* The Player Property and Modify Player Property triggers can now disable the cost for each resource type.
* Added a text preview pane to the text editing controls.
* Added additional states to behaviors, Set Unit State, and Unit Classification Check triggers to determine if a unit is detectable or shown by a radar.
* Added armor to the Unit Property and Unit Type Property triggers.
* Added Weapon Damage and Weapon Speed Multiplier triggers.
* Added support to refresh all buffs of the same type when adding a new instance by using the new "Refresh Stack" flag.
* Added a "Wait to Spend" flag, which is enabled by default, to effect abilities so configure whether orders wait until a cooldown or charge becomes available before they create their effect.
* Added an "Offset Area by Angle" flag to search effects to adjust the angle of the search based on the locations involved.
* Added an Idle Command to unit data to configure what order the unit performs when idle.
* Added an actor message to allow models to change their hit-testable status.
* Additional options can now be configured using the command card editor.
* Additional data is now saved out by the data editor to overrides made in arrays of structures to try to prevent unintended changes made to the original data from breaking it.
* Additional cheats are now available in-game when using Test Document.
o Ally - Changes all alliance states between the selected players. By default, if you just type Ally, then all players share all alliance states with you.
o AllianceDefeat - Changes the Defeat alliance state between the selected players. By default, if you just type AllianceDefeat, all players will share defeat with you.
o AllianceControl - Changes the Control alliance state between the selected players. By default, if you just type AllianceControl, then all players share control with you.
o AllianceGiveHelp - Changes the GiveHelp alliance state between the selected players. By default, if you just type AllianceGiveHelp, all players will respond to calls for help from your units.
o AlliancePassive - Changes the Passive alliance state between the selected players. Players that you are not passive with will be considered hostile for attacking purposes.
o AlliancePushable - Changes the Pushable alliance state between the selected players. This controls whether a player’s units will move through another player’s units, pushing them out of the way.
o AllianceSeekHelp - Changes the SeekHelp alliance state between the selected players. Controls whether a player’s units call for help to the specified target player. The target player can choose to respond or not, depending on its GiveHelp alliance setting.
o AllianceSpend - Changes the Spend alliance state between the selected players. Players that you are sharing resources with are allowed to spend your money to purchase things.
o AllianceTrade - Changes the Trade alliance state between the selected players. Players that you are trading with can be sent resources.
o AllianceVision - Changes the Vision alliance state between the selected players.
o BehaviorAdd - Adds the requested behavior to the selected units.
o BehaviorDuration - Sets the duration of the requested behavior.
o BehaviorRemove - Removes the requested behavior from the selected units.
o Charges - Toggles spell charge validation.
o Cooldown - Toggles spell cooldown validation.
o Creep - Adds creep at the cursor position given the requested radius.
o DamageDealt - Multiplies the amount of damage dealt by a player's units by the specified value. By default, this will multiply the damage dealt by 10 for the cheating player.
o DamageTaken - Multiplies the amount of damage taken by a player's units by the specified value. By default, this will reduce all damage taken to 0 for the cheating player.
o DeathAll – Kills all units on the map.
o DeathExcept - Kills all units on the map except the selected units.
o DeathSide - Kills all units owned by the selected player.
o DeathUnit - Kills the selected units. The type of death can be specified as a parameter.
o Defeat - Ends the game in defeat for the selected player.
o DestroyPersistent - Destroys all persistent effects within the specified radius of the cursor.
o Effect - Executes the requested effect from the selected units.
o FastBuild - Toggles fast building, research, and training times.
o FastHeal - Toggles fast healing times.
o Fidget - Forces selected units to perform the specified fidget type.
o Food - Toggles food usage validation.
o Free - Toggles resource cost validation and expenditure.
o God - Turns on god mode for the selected player. Units owned by players that are in god mode will deal amplified damage, and take no damage.
o Loot - Drops a type of loot for the specified player.
o MakeUnit - Creates N units for the specified player. Units will be created around the cursor position, or in the center of the map if the cursor position is invalid.
o Minerals - Adds the specified amount of minerals to the selected player.
o Move - Moves the selected units to the cursor position.
o NoDefeat - Disables defeat conditions.
o NoVictory - Disables victory conditions.
o Order - Orders the selected units to use an ability.
o Owner - Changes ownership for the selected units to the selected player.
o ResourceCustom - Adds the specified amount of a custom resource to the selected player.
o SetAll - Sets the life, shields, and energy of the selected units to the specified value. By default, this will set these values to the maximum amount.
o SetLife – Sets the life of the selected units to the specified value.
o SetEnergy - Sets the energy of the selected units to the specified value.
o SetLife - Sets the life of the selected units to the specified value.
o SetShields - Sets the shields of the selected units to the specified value.
o SetResource - Sets the harvestable resources contained by the selected units to the specified value.
o ShowMap - Toggles fog of war display and validation.
o TechTree - Toggles tech tree dependency validation.
o Terrazine - Adds the specified amount of terrazine to the specified player.
o Tie - Marks all undecided players with the tie result.
o TimeOfDay - Sets the time of day to the specified time.
o TimeOfDayRate – Sets the rate that the time of day changes to the specified value.
o TrigDebug - Opens the trigger debug window.
o TrigRun - Runs the specified trigger.
o Uncreep - Removes creep at the cursor position given the requested radius.
o Undecided - Marks the selected player's result as undecided.
o Upgrade - Applies the selected upgrade to the selected player.
o Vespene - Adds the specified amount of vespene gas to the specified player.
o Victory - Ends the game in defeat for all players that don't share the defeat alliance state with the selected player.
o XP - Adds a relative amount of XP to the selected units. This can be used to change veterancy levels.
Bug Fixes
* Achievements
o Fixed a bug where players were not receiving "Wings Of Liberty: Hard" and "Wings Of Liberty: Brutal" achievements after completing the appropriate number of missions.
* Battle.net
o Fixed a bug where some Bronze players weren't gaining enough points for wins and were losing too many points for losses.
* Gameplay
o StarCraft II will continue running if corrupt textures/models/sounds are encountered.
o Conversation skipping and trigger skipping now share the same hotkey.
o The notification that a player left the game during a paused game is no longer delayed until the game is unpaused.
o Cheat codes now only accept official names.
o Unit response sounds are now updated immediately when the selection changes.
o Unit death will no longer show units on the other side of line of sight blockers that weren’t already visible.
o Units ordered to load into a transport now follow the transport if the transport fills up and they have no other orders.
o Units inside a Bunker no longer disappear if the bunker is destroyed and surrounded by Force Fields.
o Units can now be revived multiple times.
o Hero buttons are now displayed while a hero is dead if they are revivable. Clicking on the button while a hero is dead will either select the building reviving it or cycle between buildings that can.
o Revivable abilities now show revivable units all the time. If they cannot currently be revived, the buttons are shown disabled.
o The revive ability now works with multiple dead units.
o Revived units now properly dispatch a trigger event when killed again.
o Added additional information to unit tooltips in the tech trees.
o An alert has been added when MULEs expire.
o An alert has been added when the Chrono Boost buff expires.
o An alert has been added when the Spawn Larvae buff expires.
o Fixed an issue with not being able to land where you just lifted off if there was a nearby unit.
o Fixed an issue where you could push Hold Position units by Move/Hold Position spamming.
o Fixed an issue to prevent Force Fields from pushing units during construction.
o Fixed an issue with creep destroying more foliage than it should, and made foliage destruction by creep faster.
o Fixed an issue with custom global hotkeys in grid profiles overlapping with unit command buttons.
o Fixed an issue placing Terran add-on buildings when multiple buildings were selected.
o The stalemate timer will now reset when any player gathers resources, researches an upgrade, produces a unit, constructs a building, or destroys an enemy building.
o Additional stalemate warnings are no longer displayed when the game ends in a stalemate.
o Flying cloaked units are no longer revealed as detected when shown through the fog of war.
o Vespene Geysers that are taken by your opponent and are under the fog of war no longer randomly flash on and off on the mini-map.
o Enemy buildings completed while being revealed due to friendly unit death will now properly create snapshots in the fog of war.
o Casting Neural Parasite on a Zerg Cocoon will not cancel the spell until after the cocoon completes its transformation.
o Changes made to autocast abilities while a unit is under the effects of Neural Parasite are now reset to their default state when Neural Parasite ends.
o Queuing multiple targets with 250mm Strike Cannons will no longer result in the Thor being stuck until the cooldown ends.
o Workers gathering minerals can no longer continue to harvest minerals if they are pushed away by a Force Field.
o Orders issued to unload units from a Medivac onto itself can now be canceled if the Medivac is scanning for units to heal.
o The Harvester count in the income leader panel now updates correctly.
o Bi-directional transformations (i.e. those used by Vikings, Siege Tanks, and burrowing units) are no longer shown in the production leader panel.
o The resources from salvaged Bunkers are no longer counted towards the resources lost in the units lost leader panel.
o The Mute OS Microphone button has been removed from the Options' Voice page.
o Tech trees now show icons for units that are produced by a building and display the names for units that are unlocked by a building.
o Using Edit Box Trigger Dialogs should no longer generate trigger errors.
o Media keys can no longer be bound to a custom hotkey.
o Hotkeys configured in a mod are now loaded properly without having to open the Hotkeys page.
o Mouse-based hotkeys are now handled properly when the cursor is over the mini-map.
o Mouse-based hotkeys bound with modifiers are now displayed correctly in the Hotkeys page.
o The hotkey for the Cancel button is now displayed when targeting with an ability if the Command Hotkey Text option is enabled.
* StarCraft II Editor
o Fixed an issue where editor control files could not be loaded in all languages.
o Fixed an issue with pasting text values in the editor.
o Fixed an issue where certain data fields would not list all possible values.
o Fixed an issue where the editor would crash after pasting a placed unit.
o Fixed a crash using the Unit Weapon Firing validator.
o Player Properties will no longer allow all 16 players to be User/Computer, which is not supported.
o Animations in the previewer will now display using localized text.
o Game and player versions of the cooldown & charge triggers now interpret time values correctly.
o Sounds played simultaneously for multiple players via the Play Sound trigger can now be heard properly.
o Increasing the maximum number of charges with an upgrade no longer increases the current number of charges.
o Setting a unit’s training progress to 100% will no longer cancel the training.
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So Terran is even more vulnerable to HTs and Infestors still die with 2 Tank shots? I like the other changes though..
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Infestor still nerfed. Cool beans.
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can someone sum up the differences from the previous PTR patch notes =), it says here that the missile projectile of fungal growth has been revoked, is that true ? is that good?
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On March 12 2011 22:10 CreepCrepe wrote:
Infestor still nerfed. Cool beans.
Infestor spell is now insta-cast. Isnt this a good thing?
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Very sad about infestor missile reverted 
Missile gives nice micro to the game - muta/phoenix/hellion micro would be really cool vs. FG.
And I can't believe they reverted infestors hp - I mean what's the point?
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On March 12 2011 22:10 CreepCrepe wrote:
Infestor still nerfed. Cool beans.
Definitely a nerf against Medivac harass - which is bad as that's where Infestors need to shine to replace Mutalisks.
Harder to tell if it's a buff or a nerf in combat against MM-balls. Won't be as good at delaying pushes but will pack a better punch once you decide to engage.
Not a nerf against the Protoss death-ball but still very doubtful if it will be worth making them in this situation.
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they nerfs the ghost emp so the protoss players who were complaining about HT should not cry now lol
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Balance changes still look the same as they were a few days ago.
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On March 12 2011 22:16 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
they nerfs the ghost emp so the protoss players who were complaining about HT should not cry now lol
That change only helps if your HTs have 150-200 energy. How often do you see HTs with that much energy?
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* Instant larva-style training will now charge resources properly. - What is this?
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Wow infestor back to 90 HP now??
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This was posted two days ago...
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On March 12 2011 22:17 Callous wrote:
Balance changes still look the same as they were a few days ago.
Well they arnt
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On March 12 2011 22:22 EdSlyB wrote:
You should highlight the changes.
Just did
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On March 12 2011 22:21 Highways wrote:
Wow infestor back to 90 HP now??
Yes, appears they were extremely hard to kill with 110 hp ^^
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On March 12 2011 22:17 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:16 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
they nerfs the ghost emp so the protoss players who were complaining about HT should not cry now lol That change only helps if your HTs have 150-200 energy. How often do you see HTs with that much energy?
Agreed. This isn't changing the effect on shields and draining 100 energy is pretty much nulifiying any caster it hits.
I guess it's better than nothing, if you happen to have ht's that have more than 175 energy and when is the last time you have seen that :o With starting energy of 50 you have to warp them in. Take few bases and then return to them, while praying terran won't advance.
I'm not even commenting is the amulet thing fair or not, I don't mind them changing it but I rather it would be like 15 energy upgrade rather than having emp take only 100. Would make a lot more sense
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On March 12 2011 22:17 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:16 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
they nerfs the ghost emp so the protoss players who were complaining about HT should not cry now lol That change only helps if your HTs have 150-200 energy. How often do you see HTs with that much energy?
That is true. I am not sure where blizzard is geting its balance feedback from but it doesn't look good. There have been a bunch of threads that have analyzed this and it seems perfectly reasonable to just nerf the amulet to 63 energy . But they for some reason don't want to do that. Its seems to be either all or nothing approach for them.
I hope they try a few more things before making this final. If changes to amulet go in, toss will be dominated by boring colossi play.
If they plan on making the amulet change final they should buff storm by a lot to make it more viable.
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So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it".
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Good changes. The infestor missile was bound to be too weak against people with excellent micro.
I don't mind the ghost change either, it makes sense to drain 100 shields and 100 energy. It might not help HT's that much, but sentries often have max energy in engagements.
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On March 12 2011 22:44 Bagi wrote:
Good changes. The infestor missile was bound to be too weak against people with excellent micro.
I don't mind the ghost change either, it makes sense to drain 100 shields and 100 energy. It might not help HT's that much, but sentries often have max energy in engagements.
I actually wonder if they changed the emp for emp rush that they were talking about instead of to help ht's.
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On March 12 2011 22:16 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
they nerfs the ghost emp so the protoss players who were complaining about HT should not cry now lol
As if the nerfs were even comparable.
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On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it".
Only thing that nerf will allow is a full energy sentry to lay down 1 ff after being emped. So do you really think that just that doesn't make emp too strong now? confusedface.jpg
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On March 12 2011 22:44 Bagi wrote:
Good changes. The infestor missile was bound to be too weak against people with excellent micro.
I don't mind the ghost change either, it makes sense to drain 100 shields and 100 energy. It might not help HT's that much, but sentries often have max energy in engagements.
Shield effect remains unchanged, it will still take all shields.
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On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it".
Are you kidding? It was barely a nerf, when does a Templar ever get 175 Energy? (The amount of energy needed to Storm after an EMP), it has a maximum of 200 Energy...
I'm still scratching my head to see how this is even a nerf, more like a change that barely even has an effect on the game considering Terrans already bring multiple Ghosts
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On March 12 2011 22:51 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". Are you kidding? It was barely a nerf, when does a Templar ever get 175 Energy? (The amount of energy needed to Storm after an EMP), it has a maximum of 200 Energy... I'm still scratching my head to see how this is even a nerf, more like a change that barely even has an effect on the game considering Terrans already bring multiple Ghosts
A sentry with full energy can cast ff twice after being emped in 1.3. If the emp hits 3 sentries, you have 6 forcefields more. I do think that makes a difference. Also, sentries have max energy quiet often.
Also, you get an extra storm off for every ht with 175 energy or more. Its might be rare, but you guys make it look like an emp buff, because its a rare situation.
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On March 12 2011 22:22 Philip2110 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:17 Callous wrote:
Balance changes still look the same as they were a few days ago. Well they arnt
Yeah they are, look at the date of your link, it was two days ago that it was updated.
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On March 12 2011 22:50 Mitchlew wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:44 Bagi wrote:
Good changes. The infestor missile was bound to be too weak against people with excellent micro.
I don't mind the ghost change either, it makes sense to drain 100 shields and 100 energy. It might not help HT's that much, but sentries often have max energy in engagements. Shield effect remains unchanged, it will still take all shields.
The EMP drain only 100 shields (and all the energy) right now.
After 1.3 it will drain 100 to both shields and energy.
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As a Zerg scrub, I feel that the missle change was actually ok. I would have liked it to be a lot faster if it were to be implemented. I feel it would lead to more emphasis on micro tricks at a a high level. Watching players predict and dodge fungals would be extremely exciting.
The removal of the Viking Flower and Archon Toilet is pretty dumb still. A lot of BW micro was based around "breaking" the game and making units do things they were never designed to in the first place (Muta stacking being the big example). Both the Viking Flower and Archon Toilet are really neat little tricks that players can incorporate into their play. They are not imbalanced or game breaking at all. It just seems to be taking away interesting techniques from SCII for no reason
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On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it".
Most protosses recognize that amulet is way OP. It definitely need the nerf but just doing away with it is too much. It is sort of like saying that stimmed marines are too good...so lets remove stim! This is not a good way to balance. They should try to nerf overpowered abilities first and then remove it if and only if the said ability is impossible to balance in any form.
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FG back to instant cast is a huge deal, but I still feel the rest of the FG "Buff" is pretty ambiguous.
How often is FG used for the root effect vs how often for damage?
I dunno. I just feel like Zerg still needs something, especially for the early game.
A significant Spine Crawler build time reduction would help a lot, I think. 50 seconds is way too long.
Getting Hydra speed upgrade from BW back would also kick butt. Imagine Hydras speeding along at upgraded Roach speed. Zerg could finally be the scrappy, mobile, counter-attack playstyle it's supposed to be.
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On March 12 2011 22:57 aeN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:50 Mitchlew wrote:On March 12 2011 22:44 Bagi wrote:
Good changes. The infestor missile was bound to be too weak against people with excellent micro.
I don't mind the ghost change either, it makes sense to drain 100 shields and 100 energy. It might not help HT's that much, but sentries often have max energy in engagements. Shield effect remains unchanged, it will still take all shields. The EMP drain only 100 shields (and all the energy) right now. After 1.3 it will drain 100 to both shields and energy.
I always thought the emp took out the entire sheild. Like emping an archon pretty much kills him because he is left with 10hp.
Edit: no no I stand corrected, ty
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On March 12 2011 22:58 WickedBit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". Most protosses recognize that amulet is way OP. It definitely need the nerf but just doing away with it is too much. It is sort of like saying that stimmed marines are too good...so lets remove stim! This is not a good way to balance. They should try to nerf overpowered abilities first and then remove it if and only if the said ability is impossible to balance in any form.
Well, i dont disagree. I only want people to recognize that the emp got a significant nerf, not a weird kind of buff. I never said that removing the amulet was the best way to balance the ht.
On a side note: Removing the amulet doesnt equal removing stim, because hts can storm afterall... Its more like delaying storm for every individual ht.
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On March 12 2011 23:05 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:58 WickedBit wrote:On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". Most protosses recognize that amulet is way OP. It definitely need the nerf but just doing away with it is too much. It is sort of like saying that stimmed marines are too good...so lets remove stim! This is not a good way to balance. They should try to nerf overpowered abilities first and then remove it if and only if the said ability is impossible to balance in any form. Well, i dont disagree. I only want people to recognize that the emp got a significant nerf, not a weird kind of buff. I never said that removing the amulet was the best way to balance the ht. On a side note: Removing the amulet doesnt equal removing stim, because hts can storm afterall... Its more like delaying storm for every individual ht.
I think his analogy holds quite well. The entire sense of "if something is too powerful, then lets remove it!"
If High Templars started off with 0 energy then the entire tech tree is about as useless as an un-stimmed marine late game..
and I completely disagree with you saying that emp nerf was "significant", how was it significant? High Templars need 175 energy to Storm after an EMP now, that is still such a stupidly high number, especially if there are multiple ghosts.
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lol.
Nerfing both HT and Ghost. Straying away from what made Starcraft 1 fun and entertaining to watch imo ("Instant-Impact" such as Scourges, EMP, Mines, etc... now storm....emp).
Anyway....
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On March 12 2011 23:05 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:58 WickedBit wrote:On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". Most protosses recognize that amulet is way OP. It definitely need the nerf but just doing away with it is too much. It is sort of like saying that stimmed marines are too good...so lets remove stim! This is not a good way to balance. They should try to nerf overpowered abilities first and then remove it if and only if the said ability is impossible to balance in any form. Well, i dont disagree. I only want people to recognize that the emp got a significant nerf, not a weird kind of buff. I never said that removing the amulet was the best way to balance the ht. On a side note: Removing the amulet doesnt equal removing stim, because hts can storm afterall... Its more like delaying storm for every individual ht.
The ghost nerf seems out of the blue, probably related to the amulet nerf. If that is so then this is not good balancing...not sure how they thought that would fix anything. Just seems like they are throwing darts at random and see if anything hits.
Yeah I know that removing storm is not equal to removing stim  . I was just using that exaggeration to make that point.
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On March 12 2011 23:10 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 23:05 Grummler wrote:On March 12 2011 22:58 WickedBit wrote:On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". Most protosses recognize that amulet is way OP. It definitely need the nerf but just doing away with it is too much. It is sort of like saying that stimmed marines are too good...so lets remove stim! This is not a good way to balance. They should try to nerf overpowered abilities first and then remove it if and only if the said ability is impossible to balance in any form. Well, i dont disagree. I only want people to recognize that the emp got a significant nerf, not a weird kind of buff. I never said that removing the amulet was the best way to balance the ht. On a side note: Removing the amulet doesnt equal removing stim, because hts can storm afterall... Its more like delaying storm for every individual ht. I think his analogy holds quite well. The entire sense of "if something is too powerful, then lets remove it!" If High Templars started off with 0 energy then the entire tech tree is about as useless as an un-stimmed marine late game.. and I completely disagree with you saying that emp nerf was "significant", how was it significant? High Templars need 175 energy to Storm after an EMP now, that is still such a stupidly high number, especially if there are multiple ghosts.
Why is everyone taking 175 energy as some kind of treshold? EMP removes 100 energy, not 175. So everything above 100 (!) energy will make a difference, not 175. Also, i dislike how nobody talks about sentries. They DO have a lot of energy very often.
Also you cant just emp multiple times. Emp needs energy as well. Every emp needed more to get rid of a ht is one emp less hitting somewhere else.
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The ghost "nerf" is a joke imo, and it's not a buff to the Ht's like some people are saying.... Having 175 energy on a HT is still incredible high and terran are always going to have more than 1 ghost, so I don't get it....
About the infestor, I have no idea if the missile was better but weren't people complaining about it?
Edit: post above people are talking about 175 because it's the energy a HT needs to have so it can storm after the emp.
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On March 12 2011 23:17 Elvedeta wrote:
Edit: post above people are talking about 175 because it's the energy a HT needs to have so it can storm after the emp.
Yeah, i know. But its wrong. If you emp a ht with, lets say 150 energy, he will have 50 energy left now and be ready for the next storm much earlier. So every time a ht having more than 100 energy getting emped, the emp nerf will make a difference.
And i see hts having more than 100 energy quite often (same goes for senrties).
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Good to finally see a nerf to EMP.
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The only way I see this being a buff to HT is that they can now respond with a feedback, although its main purpose - storm - will still be significantly nerfed. I'm still not happy with the removal of the amulet.
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On March 12 2011 23:26 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 23:17 Elvedeta wrote:
Edit: post above people are talking about 175 because it's the energy a HT needs to have so it can storm after the emp. Yeah, i know. But its wrong. If you emp a ht with, lets say 150 energy, he will have 50 energy left now and be ready for the next storm much earlier. So every time a ht having more than 100 energy getting emped, the emp nerf will make a difference.
No, HT will die, because he has only 40 hp left, trolololo.
They're going in the right direction with EMP, still i dont get it why it deals dmg vs 1 race and not the other 2.
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I think protoss players are looking at emp nerf in a wrong way.
So far watching any stream or tournament in 95% cases toss tends to upgrade storm then upgrade amulet and then warp a lot of templars. Only 1-2 tends to get warped in before the amulet upgrade.
With amulet removed getting those HT out as early as possible will be important to gather energy. I think we will see more and more templars with more then 100 energy now. So the emp nerf will be useful to toss players.
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Infestor missile removed!!! Woo! I think they could have kept it but make the missile faster, but whatever. That works too :D
But really, blizzard? 110 health was just too much? Are you serious? Do you see how ridiculously fat infestors are??
On March 12 2011 23:40 DrGreen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 23:26 Grummler wrote:On March 12 2011 23:17 Elvedeta wrote:
Edit: post above people are talking about 175 because it's the energy a HT needs to have so it can storm after the emp. Yeah, i know. But its wrong. If you emp a ht with, lets say 150 energy, he will have 50 energy left now and be ready for the next storm much earlier. So every time a ht having more than 100 energy getting emped, the emp nerf will make a difference. No, HT will die, because he has only 40 hp left, trolololo. They're going in the right direction with EMP, still i dont get it why it deals dmg vs 1 race and not the other 2.
Well considering that Snipe works on every single zerg unit, that's not that strange. The races are different and spells affect them different ways.
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On March 12 2011 23:17 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 23:10 Dommk wrote:On March 12 2011 23:05 Grummler wrote:On March 12 2011 22:58 WickedBit wrote:On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". Most protosses recognize that amulet is way OP. It definitely need the nerf but just doing away with it is too much. It is sort of like saying that stimmed marines are too good...so lets remove stim! This is not a good way to balance. They should try to nerf overpowered abilities first and then remove it if and only if the said ability is impossible to balance in any form. Well, i dont disagree. I only want people to recognize that the emp got a significant nerf, not a weird kind of buff. I never said that removing the amulet was the best way to balance the ht. On a side note: Removing the amulet doesnt equal removing stim, because hts can storm afterall... Its more like delaying storm for every individual ht. I think his analogy holds quite well. The entire sense of "if something is too powerful, then lets remove it!" If High Templars started off with 0 energy then the entire tech tree is about as useless as an un-stimmed marine late game.. and I completely disagree with you saying that emp nerf was "significant", how was it significant? High Templars need 175 energy to Storm after an EMP now, that is still such a stupidly high number, especially if there are multiple ghosts. Why is everyone taking 175 energy as some kind of treshold? EMP removes 100 energy, not 175. So everything above 100 (!) energy will make a difference, not 175. Also, i dislike how nobody talks about sentries. They DO have a lot of energy very often. Also you cant just emp multiple times. Emp needs energy as well. Every emp needed more to get rid of a ht is one emp less hitting somewhere else.
This is right. People are saying as if emp doesn't require energy, Terran has to create ghosts before battles, and they are way more expensive than HTs. Yes, we all know that ghosts can shoot, but how often you see ghost's dps affect the battle? Most of the time they sacrifice themselves to get the emp off.
And it's not like HTs don't have skill that remove energy anyway. Ghost remove 100 energy and shield aoe target, HTs remove all the energy and deal direct damage with less energy but single target. It's just a battle of who is sneakier. Of course each of us like one over another, but that adds the variety in sc2.
imo, what HTs need is a speed buff, so that they can be worth warping in from the beginning, right now they are just too slow to be a mobile unit, most of the time they are nothing but static defense.
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When Blizzard changes something it's not always a direct response to a community concern. Perhaps they just felt EMP had too powerful an effect on casters and they wanted to address that? It doesn't necessarily have to be their answer to nerfing the HT energy upgrade. And actually, you very often have templar with more than 100 energy, I don't know why people insist that is an extremely rare occurence. In all those cases it will be a buff.
Just pick your battles more carefully, honestly. The HT nerf and ghost nerf don't come together, I garantuee you that if blizzard reverts the amulet removal, they'll keep the EMP change, so don't attack that change when your problem is with the amulet change.
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I like some of the changes, even the EMP one (I am T) i think it lines up nicely with the removal of the amulet. more often than not 100 energy less will mean no storms or fungals anyways.
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On March 12 2011 23:49 DoubleReed wrote:
Infestor missile removed!!! Woo! I think they could have kept it but make the missile faster, but whatever. That works too :D
But really, blizzard? 110 health was just too much? Are you serious? Do you see how ridiculously fat infestors are??
well first i thought its because after they heavily buff the dps (double/more then double vs armored) they want to promot caster wars more so 90 would be the number where 2snipes kill and feedback often kills.but snipes do have to be PERFECT in sync so 2 kill so im not sure about that anymore.
also why not? all of the 3 casters are around that HP.
dont see a problem with that at all.
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On March 12 2011 15:14 Crashburn wrote:![[image loading]](http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/3/htbug.jpg)
I have to quote this, i found it hilarious hahah.
As for the topic even with this nerf to EMP, the removal still seems overkill. For sure protoss players will have to go robo stargate almost everytime aggainst zerg to deal with threat of mutas, since a ball of mutas will just kill any HT on the base gathering energy before the player has time to react and blink stalkers were never enough. For sure T will go bio everytime now. So, robo all the way for protoss, Z will have easier time with mutas, terran bio, and zerg is encouraged to use mutas as they use with T. Nice way of encouraging boring games. There goes the immortal HT combos, mech play, people so much wanted to see in pvt. Gj Blizzard.
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Oh good they removed the Infestor missile projectile thingy. Still not sure if it's a buff or a nerf with the extra damage. I still feel like it's a nerf, although it's going to be huge in ZvZ against Roaches and much worse against Mutas.
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On March 13 2011 00:25 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 23:49 DoubleReed wrote:
Infestor missile removed!!! Woo! I think they could have kept it but make the missile faster, but whatever. That works too :D
But really, blizzard? 110 health was just too much? Are you serious? Do you see how ridiculously fat infestors are??
also why not? all of the 3 casters are around that HP. dont see a problem with that at all.
HT isn't armored, and ghost is Psionic with 100hp so that's super huge difference. 90hp on huge armored infestor is nothing when there are units like tanks and marauders around.
I personally think that all 3 casters - infestor, ghost and HT should be psionic type.
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On March 12 2011 22:54 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:51 Dommk wrote:On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". Are you kidding? It was barely a nerf, when does a Templar ever get 175 Energy? (The amount of energy needed to Storm after an EMP), it has a maximum of 200 Energy... I'm still scratching my head to see how this is even a nerf, more like a change that barely even has an effect on the game considering Terrans already bring multiple Ghosts A sentry with full energy can cast ff twice after being emped in 1.3. If the emp hits 3 sentries, you have 6 forcefields more. I do think that makes a difference. Also, sentries have max energy quiet often. Also, you get an extra storm off for every ht with 175 energy or more. Its might be rare, but you guys make it look like an emp buff, because its a rare situation.
I would not take it as that protoss players are complaining about this nerf but as that protoss players are whining that blizzard wants to justify amulet removal with this and that's why some players are complaining about the actual change.
Ofc the emp nerf is only good for protoss, but for a lot of players it's still not an equal trade.
Personally I think it's good change, but I find it funny when terran players are now saying as this is as big of a change as the amulet removal.
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They are still removing the Amulet... Joke.
User was warned for this post
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On March 12 2011 23:26 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 23:17 Elvedeta wrote:
Edit: post above people are talking about 175 because it's the energy a HT needs to have so it can storm after the emp. Yeah, i know. But its wrong. If you emp a ht with, lets say 150 energy, he will have 50 energy left now and be ready for the next storm much earlier. So every time a ht having more than 100 energy getting emped, the emp nerf will make a difference. And i see hts having more than 100 energy quite often (same goes for senrties).
"the next storm"
the next storm never happens, because the marauders' cc kills half the retreating toss army.
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Fungal will be fucking sick.. Doubters will change their minds eventually .
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On March 12 2011 22:58 WickedBit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". Most protosses recognize that amulet is way OP. It definitely need the nerf but just doing away with it is too much. It is sort of like saying that stimmed marines are too good...so lets remove stim! This is not a good way to balance. They should try to nerf overpowered abilities first and then remove it if and only if the said ability is impossible to balance in any form.
Yeah. There's a weird black and white thing. With amulet they're probably too good. Without amulet we know for sure that they are too bad.
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On March 12 2011 23:49 DoubleReed wrote:
Infestor missile removed!!! Woo! I think they could have kept it but make the missile faster, but whatever. That works too :D
But really, blizzard? 110 health was just too much? Are you serious? Do you see how ridiculously fat infestors are??
Infestors major survival issue was getting bombed by colossus and tanks, which wasn't even fixed by the health increase, so reverting doesn't really effect their survival that much.
I think that the real change needed to improve their survival is by lowering their threat priority. Right now units naturally target the infestors over other units since they have the highest threat. If they were in line with roach/lings/etc, then the opponent would have to target-fire them, which rewards smarter players and punishes attack-moving. Anything change that rewards players for tactical awareness would be a good change imo.
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On March 13 2011 00:28 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 00:25 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On March 12 2011 23:49 DoubleReed wrote:
Infestor missile removed!!! Woo! I think they could have kept it but make the missile faster, but whatever. That works too :D
But really, blizzard? 110 health was just too much? Are you serious? Do you see how ridiculously fat infestors are??
also why not? all of the 3 casters are around that HP. dont see a problem with that at all. HT isn't armored, and ghost is Psionic with 100hp so that's super huge difference. 90hp on huge armored infestor is nothing when there are units like tanks and marauders around. I personally think that all 3 casters - infestor, ghost and HT should be psionic type.
maybe.
but tbh imo armored is better then light in that situation. a templar dies anyways under tank fire/marauder shots. but you cant mass snipe infestors with 3 blue flame hellions that ran by.and i won games because of roasting 4 HTs at once that way but i never lost a game where i thought "DAMMIT if my infestor only had 20 hp more!"
also cost also matters and the infestor still has burrow as a permanent energy free cloak.
so really i dont think its a big issue. i wouldnt complain if they got 20 hp more. but i also dont see a reason why they should have 20 more.
On March 13 2011 00:35 Kyuki wrote:Fungal will be fucking sick.. Doubters will change their minds eventually .
ye. and i still think its not good for the game having a fairly high dps spell that prohibits ALL micro.
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On March 13 2011 00:25 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 23:49 DoubleReed wrote:
Infestor missile removed!!! Woo! I think they could have kept it but make the missile faster, but whatever. That works too :D
But really, blizzard? 110 health was just too much? Are you serious? Do you see how ridiculously fat infestors are??
well first i thought its because after they heavily buff the dps (double/more then double vs armored) they want to promot caster wars more so 90 would be the number where 2snipes kill and feedback often kills.but snipes do have to be PERFECT in sync so 2 kill so im not sure about that anymore. also why not? all of the 3 casters are around that HP. dont see a problem with that at all.
Other casters aren't such a huge friggin' target. They're so big that they have common pathing problems ffs. Not to mention the armored tag to receive extra damage. The ghost has more health than an infestor and it's like 1/3 the size. It's ridiculous. +20 health isn't that much, but apparently it's too much lol.
Whatever, it's not any worse than it is now. They could have nerfed the health down to 70 or 60 if they wanted to...
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On March 13 2011 00:25 Apolo wrote:
There goes the immortal HT combos, mech play, people so much wanted to see in pvt. Gj Blizzard.
You mean the mechplay that doesn't work and that is hardcountered x20 by protoss? We will never see that, even when marauders have 10 hp and even when stim is removed.
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On March 13 2011 00:44 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 00:25 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On March 12 2011 23:49 DoubleReed wrote:
Infestor missile removed!!! Woo! I think they could have kept it but make the missile faster, but whatever. That works too :D
But really, blizzard? 110 health was just too much? Are you serious? Do you see how ridiculously fat infestors are??
well first i thought its because after they heavily buff the dps (double/more then double vs armored) they want to promot caster wars more so 90 would be the number where 2snipes kill and feedback often kills.but snipes do have to be PERFECT in sync so 2 kill so im not sure about that anymore. also why not? all of the 3 casters are around that HP. dont see a problem with that at all. Other casters aren't such a huge friggin' target. They're so big that they have common pathing problems ffs. Not to mention the armored tag to receive extra damage. The ghost has more health than an infestor and it's like 1/3 the size. It's ridiculous. +20 health isn't that much, but apparently it's too much lol. Whatever, it's not any worse than it is now. They could have nerfed the health down to 70 or 60 if they wanted to...
HTs are light so they also take additional damage from certain units and have 11 hp less then Infestor.
And yeah... Infestor might have problems with pathing cause of its size, but so do immortals/stalkers/tanks/thors. Just learn to control units in battle and it wont be a problem.
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This is so far in the wrong direction to try and balance the ghost templar dynamic. More often then not in a standard protoss army the only caster with more then 100 energy are going to be the sentries. Do we really want to buff forcefields against terran? I don't think that's going to help the matchup... at all.
Amulet may be too strong but even with it templar aren't as good as colossus. Does this not concern anyone? By the time you can reasonably get a HT with 175 energy to be able to storm after emp you could have 5-6 colossus and some phoenix support.
The recent San vs SC matches where some of the first I've seen that actually showcased templar tech. Without going too far into the matches for the sake of spoilers SC grossly mishandled his ghost control. San consistently got feedbacks on all of SC ghosts when in a perfect even match THIS SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN. For those of you that are unaware EMP has a range of 10 with a radius of 1 making its effective range 11, feedback is range 9. If you invest as much in ghost as they do in templars it is actually nearly impossible to get storms off with proper control. Once we start to see people actually use ghosts to their full potential (you cannot argue that we are currently, sorry) even with the current state the ghosts come out on top, without amulet I do not know why anyone would go templar.
The stubbornness that blizz is showing with patching is very worrying. With all issues the game has in terms of balance whether you subscribe to the zerg whining or not I don't think anyone was thinking "My god protoss is going nothing but storm every game and my emps do nothing to counter it". In fact 80% of my games against or as protoss I see colossus yet there is apparently no issue with them. Zergs have been complaining about balance for the last 6 months and nothing has been done to give zergs even a little bit of hope.
This may be a strange concept to those of you that don't play zerg but simply put it is just less fun. It has always felt as if you needed to outplay your opponent quite a bit in order to come out on top. Zerg is harder to play and in a game where everything can be done better why would you ever play zerg? It is frustrating to lose because of minor mistakes when it takes a fairly major one for you to win. As terran vs zerg you know what you are facing because there is only 1 solid strategy and a couple all-ins you have to worry about. Zerg vs terran there is 5-6 ways you can lose instantly in the first 6 minutes and another 20 in the next 4. Just a little push for zerg might actually get me to stop playing random and finally be able to commit myself to the race I want to play.
Edit: I sort of came off as if the infestor buff didn't matter. It does it is actually really nice but realistically it doesn't fix any of the reasons zerg is so frustrating to play and thats what I'm really worried about.
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On March 13 2011 00:25 Apolo wrote:
Not only is this pretty damn funny, it's also true. I think that blizzard keeps ignoring what the main issue is, and that's how damned strong the colo is. They're tying to find a perfect balance between ghosts/HT/infestors when colo is still better than HT in all 3 matchups, and in nearly all situations. Until this is addressed, I don't think that the "caster wars" that everyone wants to see will be very common, at least in the PvX matchups.
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Yay, yay, sure EMP didn't get nerfed as much I wanted it but a nerf is a nerf and I am happy with it.
I still don't agree with the amulet removal but we will see how that change affects the scene.
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Remove colossi, don't touch amulet, add reaver and arbiter and I am happy.
Never liked colossi, especially in pvp
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The problem with High Templar and Colossus is not about how strong or weak or balance they are, it's about how overpowered they are compared to other Protoss units.
SC1 offered the possibility to just mass T1 units and outmacro your opponent with tons of zealots/goons, which is almost impossible in SC2. Almost impossible to beat Roaches/Hydras or MM with Zealots/Stalkers/Sentries only, even if you're like 2-3 bases more than your opponent (which also rarely happen in high level games).
Best example is of course PvP, showing how ridiculously huge is the gap of investment effectiveness between Colossus and T1 units. In SC1, reavers were the strongest and most expansive units (reavers + shuttle + scarabs) but also the first to die in most of fights, i mean, it never ended with a reaver battle.
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Why are they obsessed about details when there basically are units in SC2 that you almost never see at the Master/semi-pro/pro level ?
It would be so better if they made the hydraliskoffcreep/archons/mothership/ultralisks/warp-prism/reapers/carriers/raven decent instead of nerfing every good units.
What will happen if even before the 2 expansions each race has 2-3 SC1 scout-like unit ???
All these things are interconnected btw... Maybe if Warp-prism was really good, I mean having more than 140 HP an not being absolutely outrun by muta and stimmed-marines, Protoss could rely on multi-task instead of this gigantic stupid deathball of HT/Colossi, thus we wouldn't have to whine about an eventual Khaldarin amulet nerf...
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On March 13 2011 00:47 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 00:25 Apolo wrote:
There goes the immortal HT combos, mech play, people so much wanted to see in pvt. Gj Blizzard. You mean the mechplay that doesn't work and that is hardcountered x20 by protoss? We will never see that, even when marauders have 10 hp and even when stim is removed.
Mech is not hard countered by protoss.
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On March 13 2011 01:00 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 00:47 Dente wrote:On March 13 2011 00:25 Apolo wrote:
There goes the immortal HT combos, mech play, people so much wanted to see in pvt. Gj Blizzard. You mean the mechplay that doesn't work and that is hardcountered x20 by protoss? We will never see that, even when marauders have 10 hp and even when stim is removed. Mech is not hard countered by protoss.
True, it's not that hard although we have immortals.
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interesting emp nerf, while templars will most of the time be below 175 energie, the other energy units won't, so need 2 emps now to shut down the mothership hehe.
Still ht templar soo intense, snipe feedback storm emp fighting it out while the armys wait in save distance hehe. Hope micro will go that far as people will manage to do this while the army fights hehe.
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On March 13 2011 00:56 LesPhoques wrote:
Remove colossi, don't touch amulet, add reaver and arbiter and I am happy.
Never liked colossi, especially in pvp
If they would change collosi with reaver and add arbiter with scourge that would best thing ever 
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That EMP change is huge, and needed. It was too strong before.
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On March 13 2011 00:58 TeWy wrote:
Why are they obsessed about details when there basically are units in SC2 that you almost never see at the Master/semi-pro/pro level ?
It would be so better if they made the hydraliskoffcreep/archons/mothership/ultralisks/warp-prism/reapers/carriers/raven decent instead of nerfing every good units.
What will happen if even before the 2 expansions each race has 2-3 SC1 scout-like unit ???
All these things are interconnected btw... Maybe if Warp-prism was really good, I mean having more than 140 HP an not being absolutely outrun by muta and stimmed-marines, Protoss could rely on multi-task instead of this gigantic stupid deathball of HT/Colossi, thus we wouldn't have to whine about an eventual Khaldarin amulet nerf...
Why is Blizzard obsessed with details? Because they tweaked a unit a little bit? They do that every patch, and it's the reason the balance is actually decent right now. What do you think will happen if they overhaul the game every single patch?
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On March 13 2011 01:06 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 00:58 TeWy wrote:
Why are they obsessed about details when there basically are units in SC2 that you almost never see at the Master/semi-pro/pro level ?
It would be so better if they made the hydraliskoffcreep/archons/mothership/ultralisks/warp-prism/reapers/carriers/raven decent instead of nerfing every good units.
What will happen if even before the 2 expansions each race has 2-3 SC1 scout-like unit ???
All these things are interconnected btw... Maybe if Warp-prism was really good, I mean having more than 140 HP an not being absolutely outrun by muta and stimmed-marines, Protoss could rely on multi-task instead of this gigantic stupid deathball of HT/Colossi, thus we wouldn't have to whine about an eventual Khaldarin amulet nerf...
Why is Blizzard obsessed with details? Because they tweaked a unit a little bit? They do that every patch, and it's the reason the balance is actually decent right now. What do you think will happen if they overhaul the game every single patch?
Balance is not high because of Blizzard stupid tweaks, let me assure you of that.
For playing the game since Beta, I know several nerfs/buffs that have been absolutely catastrophic and that weren't reverted for some reasons (HSM nerf for instance now you NEVER see it, pretty much same thing for reaper and now it will be the same for Mothership), some changes have been made and then have been reverted few months later, Zealot buildtime comes to mind but there are way more...
People are getting better and are somehow balancing the game on their own because of the map-making and their sense of timing, that's it...
What changes have been detrimental since Beta ? Warp-gate nerf, barrack nerf, stalker buff, roaches nerf, ultralisk buff, nexus HP buff, phoenix buff, on these ones everyone aggree... asides from that ? Probably tank nerf ... asides from that ? That's it. 7-8 good crucial changes out of more than 1 hundred in 1 year, what about the bad changes or the missing changes ? I'm pretty sure the number exceeds 7-8 by quite a lot.
Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming I could necessarily do a better job, just that Blizzard balancing process has been very doubtful since Warcraft 3 and WoW.
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I'm looking forward to seeing what infestors are like now
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Fungal instant again? So I guess you can call it a buff now? Well yeah, of course you had to get rid of the health change then, makes perfect sense...
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Count down until Protoss realizes that all they need to do against Terran now is turtle with HTs until they get over 175 energy?
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I thought EMP change was to give Toss a chance in the early Ghost timing push (so sentries could still forcefield after getting EMPd). It doesn't really affect HTs vs. EMP.
Blizzard has an awful balancing mentality. Any time something might be a problem, they just remove it. Maybe Amulet was too strong, but the last thing you should do is completely remove the strategy. Probably, Terran players haven't experimented with Ghosts enough--they really haven't been used much at a pro level, and EMP is a good skill regardless of whether or not you have HTs. Even if Amulet was too strong, a slight nerf (like it giving 15 energy), or a complete removal with other buffs to make up for it (like HT speed, or Storm doing more damage over time) is a much better option. In the current metagame, Amulet hasn't even been shown to be an overpowering strategy--it's mainly just all in theory.
Buffing>>>Nerfing in terms of balance. For example, 5-rax reaper, pylon/cannon blocking ramp, 2-rax bunker push, all things that are very effective vs. Zerg. Instead of looking at the root of the problem, being that Zerg doesn't have great early defensive options, they just nerf the strategies that exploit that. With Blizzard's hardcore "if-something's-kinda-good-then-completely-remove-it" nerfing, each time they nerf, they're just removing a lot of viable strategies from the game. I'd rather play a slightly imbalanced game with many options than a balanced game with very few.
Short version, I'm more concerned about the precedent behind nerfing Amulet rather than nerfing Amulet itself. If Blizzard nerfs everything that could potentially be too strong, we'll have a very boring game in a short time. It'd also help if people didn't have such a knee-jerk reaction to everything--the amount of people who legitimately thought mass Queens could be OP after Daily #256 was scary. Quite frankly, the game hasn't been out long enough for strategies to flesh out, so drastic nerfs should not be taking place.
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if they still want to remove the amulet...then combine the dark shrine with the templar archive at least...it's already stupid to completely remove the amulet...just nerf the added energy to like +15 or something...if almost every Progamer says the nerf is too strong and then Day 9 says it, not saying it's automatically meaning Blizz is doind something wrong but most often they are
The ghost "nerf" I think is just to counter the EMP rush so protoss can still have a couple sentries to cast 1 FF each...50 energy -> 175 energy...well that's just way too long for HTs to even be viable not to mention they can just stack their EMPs and then bam....HTs are useless once again lol...i mean they will gather up enough energy definitely the energy upgrade
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Nerf EMP is very huge against sentrys, not that much against HT I think.
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On March 12 2011 22:51 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". Are you kidding? It was barely a nerf, when does a Templar ever get 175 Energy? (The amount of energy needed to Storm after an EMP), it has a maximum of 200 Energy... I'm still scratching my head to see how this is even a nerf, more like a change that barely even has an effect on the game considering Terrans already bring multiple Ghosts
They will have that much after the patch when u actully have to manage the energy on your templars, warp them in early and let them gain energy for late game. You actully have to plan as supposed to just warping them in with storms on demand.
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On March 13 2011 01:43 Cosmos wrote:
Nerf EMP is very huge against sentrys, not that much against HT I think.
Yeah pretty much, and its a good change. Pretty ridiculus you can completely negate any sentry even thou it was builded of a 3 gate expo and had been gathering energy forever.
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Hrmm. I think I liked the changes to the Infestor to begin with, as in the missile attack and extra HP. But I'm a Zerg player and I think with it's damage buff it would be WAY strong against Terran
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Ugh, i dislike the emp nerf alot. Simply because protoss can just spread their HT apart. I think the main problem was that they should of made emp a projectile not an instant and keep the removal of all energy. This is mainly because of sentry. Sentry will usually have alot of energy and with proper spread....emp will be pretty much a joke vs it. Ghost are expensive and usually dies after EMPing and if protoss has a good spread....i find that pretty scary :/
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I'm curious as to how the new fungal works. When it says the stun durration is halved do they also mean that dot effect is the same as before (meaning they take damage while moving after stun ends)?
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I think the infestor change is good. Now it's just a straight buff to dps. I think they should have kept the health buff too, though.
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I don't think people are realizing how good the ghost change is going to be for protoss late game. Many games end up with very high energy HTs and sentries within the deathball. I feel this definitely balances out the amulet removal (since the amulet was strong to begin with).
Also, people need to stop QQing about the infestor. This is an enormous buff as a whole. I would much rather the new infestor to the old. Remember you are doing DOUBLE dps. Plus take into account that this means that the enemy units die faster, thus inflicting less damage, you get a more than double net damage advantage. Medivacs are nullified, stim is even more dangerous now for terran as well. Plus, 4 seconds is more than enough time 95% of the time to kill drops (and if its not, just cast it again). I'm incredibly happy about the infestor buff, it'll make a big difference especially in ZvT.
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On March 13 2011 01:03 slimshady wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 01:00 BLinD-RawR wrote:On March 13 2011 00:47 Dente wrote:On March 13 2011 00:25 Apolo wrote:
There goes the immortal HT combos, mech play, people so much wanted to see in pvt. Gj Blizzard. You mean the mechplay that doesn't work and that is hardcountered x20 by protoss? We will never see that, even when marauders have 10 hp and even when stim is removed. Mech is not hard countered by protoss. True, it's not that hard although we have immortals.
immortals are hardcountered by the thor upgrade. i don't see how mech is hardcountered by toss. also, not sure how hts were a good idea against mech play.
anyway i really dislike the amulet removal. templar tech is already split in two and is just going to be skipped more often.
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On March 13 2011 02:00 Spidinko wrote:
I'm curious as to how the new fungal works. When it says the stun durration is halved do they also mean that dot effect is the same as before (meaning they take damage while moving after stun ends)?
From what I've read from others, haven't played with it myself, because the damage stays the same but the duration is halved, the DPS is doubled. So when the fungal ends, the damage ends but they take twice as much damage as they did pre-patch.
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They finally fixed custom games! Hooray!
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On March 13 2011 02:07 Arnfasta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 02:00 Spidinko wrote:
I'm curious as to how the new fungal works. When it says the stun durration is halved do they also mean that dot effect is the same as before (meaning they take damage while moving after stun ends)? From what I've read from others, haven't played with it myself, because the damage stays the same but the duration is halved, the DPS is doubled. So when the fungal ends, the damage ends but they take twice as much damage as they did pre-patch.
That's huge (also not int the patch log T.T). I'm happy for zergs. I liked defiler more but now infestor will be a huge dmg dealer. Which is kinda toubling since all battles in sc2 end so fast because everything dies so fast =)
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On March 13 2011 02:10 Spidinko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 02:07 Arnfasta wrote:On March 13 2011 02:00 Spidinko wrote:
I'm curious as to how the new fungal works. When it says the stun durration is halved do they also mean that dot effect is the same as before (meaning they take damage while moving after stun ends)? From what I've read from others, haven't played with it myself, because the damage stays the same but the duration is halved, the DPS is doubled. So when the fungal ends, the damage ends but they take twice as much damage as they did pre-patch. That's huge (also not int the patch log T.T). I'm happy for zergs. I liked defiler more but now infestor will be a huge dmg dealer. Which is kinda toubling since all battles in sc2 end so fast because everything dies so fast =)
Makes it harder for infestors to stop phoenixes/mutas, though.
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On March 13 2011 01:33 [Avarice] wrote:
Buffing>>>Nerfing in terms of balance. For example, 5-rax reaper, pylon/cannon blocking ramp, 2-rax bunker push, all things that are very effective vs. Zerg. Instead of looking at the root of the problem, being that Zerg doesn't have great early defensive options, they just nerf the strategies that exploit that. With Blizzard's hardcore "if-something's-kinda-good-then-completely-remove-it" nerfing, each time they nerf, they're just removing a lot of viable strategies from the game. I'd rather play a slightly imbalanced game with many options than a balanced game with very few.
Totally agree, Blizzard is deleting those units they prolly took so much time to design and define (ie reaper, mothership, ...), one by one, patch by patch. This look so dumb that i think they in fact know exactly what they're doing, they want the game to be the more stable and don't want to take any risk while the sales are still going up.
SC2 needs major changes to wipe out those horrible boring games, and Blizzard knows it's still too early to walk this way.
ps: the 15 last TvP pro/high replays i've watched were ALL 1 rax expand + 2 rax into MMM, whatever the Terran player, whatever the map, whatever he scouted, i mean ... wtf?
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On March 13 2011 02:07 taintmachine wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 01:03 slimshady wrote:On March 13 2011 01:00 BLinD-RawR wrote:On March 13 2011 00:47 Dente wrote:On March 13 2011 00:25 Apolo wrote:
There goes the immortal HT combos, mech play, people so much wanted to see in pvt. Gj Blizzard. You mean the mechplay that doesn't work and that is hardcountered x20 by protoss? We will never see that, even when marauders have 10 hp and even when stim is removed. Mech is not hard countered by protoss. True, it's not that hard although we have immortals. immortals are hardcountered by the thor upgrade. i don't see how mech is hardcountered by toss. also, not sure how hts were a good idea against mech play. anyway i really dislike the amulet removal. templar tech is already split in two and is just going to be skipped more often.
When you think linearly in terms of unit composition, of course it doesn't seem like mech sucks. Mech play won't work on maps without narrow openings or close positions because you give toss complete map control. Spider mines don't exist, meaning there is absolutely nothing limiting toss mobility.
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A warp prism buff would be nice here. We would be able to micro hts in and out of the battle without risking being emped/snpied. I've tried this once or twice with relative success. With warp prism speed researched it's PRETTY useful, specially when retreating.
I would say the speed research being on the robotics bay is quite a pain in the arse. Maybe moving it into the cyber core? Or maybe the forge? IDK really but still....
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EMP change was obviously meant to nerf ghosts emp'ing a player with bad macro's orbital command. Gotta help them noobs.
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Unrelated, but the whole 12/3/2011 confused me. I wish America would change to that format of the date.
Related, I'm glad FG isn't a missile anymore. That would have been a huge blow.
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On March 13 2011 02:14 Fede wrote:A warp prism buff would be nice here. We would be able to micro hts in and out of the battle without risking being emped/snpied. I've tried this once or twice with relative success. With warp prism speed researched it's PRETTY useful, specially when retreating. I would say the speed research being on the robotics bay is quite a pain in the arse. Maybe moving it into the cyber core? Or maybe the forge? IDK really but still....
Typically HT's come into play following colossi range, so the bay is open for speed research.
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So the Protoss manage to whine enough to get EMP nerfed to near uselessness while Feedback still has the potential to kill units? I think I see more Ghosts being feedbacked than High Templars getting EMPed already ...
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On March 13 2011 01:43 Cosmos wrote:
Nerf EMP is very huge against sentrys, not that much against HT I think.
I'm not sure if the nerf was huge but I too think that they primarily did with the sentry in mind. I think it's reasonable.
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hmm interesting to see how the new infestor change will work
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I think that the EMP nerf was to help protoss with the 1 base MM+ghost push that was so powerful. Now we can still have some forcefields. With HT, it is pretty much the same thing. That late into the game, T should have more than one ghost for 2X emp, and that's still pretty unnecessary as HT's rarely live long enough to have 175 energy.
By the way people, P can't quite warp in templar while storm is researching, because we need that gas to stay alive before amulet researches. So if we get attacked during that time, we have a few useless templar that we will need to archon warp, and then we have no storms later anyway. However, I think we should see how this nerf plays out. After it all, you can all still whine about my colossus later.
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While I don't mind the ghost change as a Terran player, it feels completely unwarranted. Was there a serious problem with ghosts depleting energy being too problematic? Besides for perhaps EMPing a full energy mothership, this feels like something so out of the blue it wasn't given any thought. By the time sentries at peaking at 200 energy, the Protoss death ball is powerful enough without forcefields to crush a Terran army. I don't know, it just feels so random.
Something I think people aren't considering is the new fungal growth, even against non-armored units like the marine. The old fungal could catch a group of marines, but with enough medivacs it was possible to keep many marines alive even through 2 fungals. With the duration cut from 8 to 4, but the damage remaining the same, the damage output on non-armored units has now doubled. I'm skeptical if there's a chance that fungaled marines even have a chance of making it out of 2 fungals.
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Don't like the EMP nerf -- it's a step backwards because it lessens unit tension. Blizzard should keep EMP as-is and leave KA upgrade in. If they absolutely feel the need to nerf KA they should change it to +15 starting instead of +25. Nerfing EMP is NOT a good solution.
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When do we even keep HT pass 100 energy anyways we morph them into archons so the EMP nerf isn't a bad change at all. You don't even have to fricken research EMP, theres no way to dodge an EMP either.
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yea nerfing EMP is just going to make the game less dynamic
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On March 12 2011 22:17 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:16 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
they nerfs the ghost emp so the protoss players who were complaining about HT should not cry now lol That change only helps if your HTs have 150-200 energy. How often do you see HTs with that much energy?
Pretty frequently... This means you can still sort of turtle up with spread hts and not worry about 1 micro mistake losing you the game on the spot. I like this change.
On March 13 2011 02:22 Rabiator wrote:
So the Protoss manage to whine enough to get EMP nerfed to near uselessness while Feedback still has the potential to kill units? I think I see more Ghosts being feedbacked than High Templars getting EMPed already ...
Then you're watching some real tardos play, as it both outranges feedback and has an AOE.
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I am sad about the reverted infestor buffs.
WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY?
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Any idea when this patch will be implemented?
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On March 13 2011 02:48 sAfuRos wrote:
Any idea when this patch will be implemented?
After GSL I would imagine.
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On March 13 2011 02:44 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 02:22 Rabiator wrote:
So the Protoss manage to whine enough to get EMP nerfed to near uselessness while Feedback still has the potential to kill units? I think I see more Ghosts being feedbacked than High Templars getting EMPed already ... Then you're watching some real tardos play, as it both outranges feedback and has an AOE.
sc vs sanzenith. Yes, "real tardos".
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On March 13 2011 02:44 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:17 Alpina wrote:On March 12 2011 22:16 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
they nerfs the ghost emp so the protoss players who were complaining about HT should not cry now lol That change only helps if your HTs have 150-200 energy. How often do you see HTs with that much energy? Pretty frequently... This means you can still sort of turtle up with spread hts and not worry about 1 micro mistake losing you the game on the spot. I like this change. Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 02:22 Rabiator wrote:
So the Protoss manage to whine enough to get EMP nerfed to near uselessness while Feedback still has the potential to kill units? I think I see more Ghosts being feedbacked than High Templars getting EMPed already ... Then you're watching some real tardos play, as it both outranges feedback and has an AOE.
Really? The key part is scouting and in the pro games Terrans dont usually have cloaked Ghosts and Protoss armies usually have Observers spotting for incoming enemies anyways. If EMP is limited to "draining" only a max 100 energy I would think the same change should be applied to Feedback.
Btw. smart Protoss spread their caster units so "its an area effect" is not a valid argument IMO. Smart Terrans have learned to spread their Marines when facing Banelings so why should it be "easy mode" for Protoss?
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On March 13 2011 02:51 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 02:44 Drowsy wrote:On March 13 2011 02:22 Rabiator wrote:
So the Protoss manage to whine enough to get EMP nerfed to near uselessness while Feedback still has the potential to kill units? I think I see more Ghosts being feedbacked than High Templars getting EMPed already ... Then you're watching some real tardos play, as it both outranges feedback and has an AOE. sc vs sanzenith. Yes, "real tardos".
Actually, SC's ghost control was pretty bad I suggest you rewatch the games.
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Interested in how this: Fixed an issue to prevent Force Fields from pushing units during construction will impact gameplay
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On March 13 2011 02:52 JohnQPublic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 02:51 Jimmeh wrote:On March 13 2011 02:44 Drowsy wrote:On March 13 2011 02:22 Rabiator wrote:
So the Protoss manage to whine enough to get EMP nerfed to near uselessness while Feedback still has the potential to kill units? I think I see more Ghosts being feedbacked than High Templars getting EMPed already ... Then you're watching some real tardos play, as it both outranges feedback and has an AOE. sc vs sanzenith. Yes, "real tardos". Actually, SC's ghost control was pretty bad I suggest you rewatch the games.
Well, people's ghost control is pretty bad most of the time - which should be evident when it's "pretty bad" in a GSL quarterfinal. The game can't be balanced around everyone playing perfectly.
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Btw. smart Protoss spread their caster units so "its an area effect" is not a valid argument IMO. Smart Terrans have learned to spread their Marines when facing Banelings so why should it be "easy mode" for Protoss?
Not the same. You have a window to move and spread your marines when you know/see banelings coming; with ht, not only is their movement speed less than that of marines, if you dont have an observer or even if you do, your opportunity window to spread your ht's is much smaller and more difficult, in no small part due to the fact that you know, EMP's are instant.
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emp nerf doesn't really impact much, terrans can just spam more emps
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On March 13 2011 02:51 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 02:44 Drowsy wrote:On March 12 2011 22:17 Alpina wrote:On March 12 2011 22:16 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
they nerfs the ghost emp so the protoss players who were complaining about HT should not cry now lol That change only helps if your HTs have 150-200 energy. How often do you see HTs with that much energy? Pretty frequently... This means you can still sort of turtle up with spread hts and not worry about 1 micro mistake losing you the game on the spot. I like this change. On March 13 2011 02:22 Rabiator wrote:
So the Protoss manage to whine enough to get EMP nerfed to near uselessness while Feedback still has the potential to kill units? I think I see more Ghosts being feedbacked than High Templars getting EMPed already ... Then you're watching some real tardos play, as it both outranges feedback and has an AOE. Really? The key part is scouting and in the pro games Terrans dont usually have cloaked Ghosts and Protoss armies usually have Observers spotting for incoming enemies anyways. If EMP is limited to "draining" only a max 100 energy I would think the same change should be applied to Feedback. Btw. smart Protoss spread their caster units so "its an area effect" is not a valid argument IMO. Smart Terrans have learned to spread their Marines when facing Banelings so why should it be "easy mode" for Protoss?
Lets have a race, me as a marine and you as a HT on caverns. Afterwards we can practise spreading our units, I will EMP your HTs and you try to storm/baneling my marines. What fun we shall have.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Stim change still sucks, it makes no sense - when was the last time terran did something that mmade you go "Man, if only stim was 30 seconds slower"?
Just gonna fuck up early game TvP and TvZ =/
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On March 13 2011 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Stim change still sucks, it makes no sense - when was the last time terran did something that mmade you go "Man, if only stim was 30 seconds slower"?
Just gonna fuck up early game TvP and TvZ =/
A better question is, how many times have you got stim just in time (literally 5seconds) to defend some sort of Protoss all-in? (personally, a million)
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emp change makes no sense if the name is still emp, they should change its name if its not gonna take all energy ...
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On March 13 2011 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Stim change still sucks, it makes no sense - when was the last time terran did something that mmade you go "Man, if only stim was 30 seconds slower"?
/
I guess when i 1 gate FE vs 3 rax stim timing push ^^
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On March 13 2011 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Stim change still sucks, it makes no sense - when was the last time terran did something that mmade you go "Man, if only stim was 30 seconds slower"?
Just gonna fuck up early game TvP and TvZ =/
The nerf sure beats it getting completly removed, are you gonna miss the HTs? GSL, the only place where you got to see the perfect storms.....
I am more upset as a spectator rather then a player.
Get ready for those mc style protoss 4gate all ins!!!!!
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I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, but there is no cooldown on EMP. If you queue 2 EMPs on the same spot from a ghost with more than 150 energy, it essentially fires a single EMP round that drains up to 200 energy and shields.
So, if Protoss players are supposed to sit around with Templar until they exceed 175 energy to be able to storm after one EMP, Terrans can just sit around with Ghosts until they can double EMP the same spot.
EDIT:
This nerf still makes it easier to hold ghost all-ins in the early game, which is much more relevant. No more scanning, firing a single EMP, and stimming up the ramp because there's no more forcefields.
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On March 13 2011 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Stim change still sucks, it makes no sense - when was the last time terran did something that mmade you go "Man, if only stim was 30 seconds slower"?
Just gonna fuck up early game TvP and TvZ =/
Well, even if there were, this kind of thing is so map dependent to begin with. Changes to core mechanics to address issues in rush distances which are not even issues on certain maps? =(
30 seconds is just over the build time of a marine.
If the change is meant to address timing push X with Y marines, then its a rush distance thing, not a stim research time thing, since the timing would by definition vary depending on rush distance.
*Ahem slag pits close positions*
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Yay for more terrible changes....
When is Blizzard going to learn how to balance?
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On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it".
the point is, that a single emp can possibly do 1000 damage instantly, whereas a storm can be dodged "easily". means: you need several high templars until you get the SO ESSENTIAL aoe damage to only fight MMM. when you can't warp in the storms anymore, it's pointless to tech to ht because it is gonna be like gambling. will the T be able to dodge your few storms or will he not? will he get emps on your HTs or not.
the conclusion is that you rather go for colossi instead of HT tech, and the T can go for vikings blindly.
without the colossus, MMM just shred through any ball of gateway units.
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On March 13 2011 03:01 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Stim change still sucks, it makes no sense - when was the last time terran did something that mmade you go "Man, if only stim was 30 seconds slower"?
Just gonna fuck up early game TvP and TvZ =/ A better question is, how many times have you got stim just in time (literally 5seconds) to defend some sort of Protoss all-in? (personally, a million)
how many times a protoss loss in a timing maruader stim timing, how many times protoss loss to a 2 rax stim timing, how many times a protoss loss to a proxy rax stim timing, how many times protoss loss to a ghost stim timing because toss FE with sentries.
The patch seem to reverse PVT, with T being strongest early game and now Protoss strongest early game
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On March 13 2011 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Stim change still sucks, it makes no sense - when was the last time terran did something that mmade you go "Man, if only stim was 30 seconds slower"?
Just gonna fuck up early game TvP and TvZ =/
Pretty much everytime you face a 3rax stim push on any closeposition .
I don't know how you practice, but just looking at your televised games you don't seem to play builds like that very often, and I can imagine people at your level have sublte enough builds to hold them most of the time.
As toss you can hardly scout it until it moves out, and if you're a sentry or two too low, or miss a FF you're dead.
On March 13 2011 03:01 Jimmeh wrote:
A better question is, how many times have you got stim just in time (literally 5seconds) to defend some sort of Protoss all-in? (personally, a million)
You play alot of games  .
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Seriously though, I can understand it, but at the same time I don't think it was really needed, especially with the new maps coming out. Had this change come out when all we had was Steps, LT, Metal, JB etc it would've felt more warrant. I hope it wont affect gameplay too much at high level.
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On March 13 2011 03:22 DarkRise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:01 Jimmeh wrote:On March 13 2011 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Stim change still sucks, it makes no sense - when was the last time terran did something that mmade you go "Man, if only stim was 30 seconds slower"?
Just gonna fuck up early game TvP and TvZ =/ A better question is, how many times have you got stim just in time (literally 5seconds) to defend some sort of Protoss all-in? (personally, a million) how many times a protoss loss in a timing maruader stim timing, how many times protoss loss to a 2 rax stim timing, how many times a protoss loss to a proxy rax stim timing, how many times protoss loss to a ghost stim timing because toss FE with sentries. The patch seem to reverse PVT, with T being strongest early game and now Protoss strongest early game
Do you mean T being strongest late game and P early game? If you do the I agree and I hate it ;(
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Canada13389 Posts
On March 13 2011 03:19 ilikeLIONZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". the point is, that a single emp can possibly do 1000 damage instantly, whereas a storm can be dodged "easily". means: you need several high templars until you get the SO ESSENTIAL aoe damage to only fight MMM. when you can't warp in the storms anymore, it's pointless to tech to ht because it is gonna be like gambling. will the T be able to dodge your few storms or will he not? will he get emps on your HTs or not. the conclusion is that you rather go for colossi instead of HT tech, and the T can go for vikings blindly. without the colossus, MMM just shred through any ball of gateway units.
I wouldnt exactly call ht tech a gamble so much as Collossus tech providing a guaranteed amount of damage. In fact, If I have 6 sentries at full energy if they hit an emp on them I can still forcefield which makes my collossus that much better.
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On March 13 2011 03:25 ToyotomiXD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:22 DarkRise wrote:On March 13 2011 03:01 Jimmeh wrote:On March 13 2011 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Stim change still sucks, it makes no sense - when was the last time terran did something that mmade you go "Man, if only stim was 30 seconds slower"?
Just gonna fuck up early game TvP and TvZ =/ A better question is, how many times have you got stim just in time (literally 5seconds) to defend some sort of Protoss all-in? (personally, a million) how many times a protoss loss in a timing maruader stim timing, how many times protoss loss to a 2 rax stim timing, how many times a protoss loss to a proxy rax stim timing, how many times protoss loss to a ghost stim timing because toss FE with sentries. The patch seem to reverse PVT, with T being strongest early game and now Protoss strongest early game Do you mean T being strongest late game and P early game? If you do the I agree and I hate it ;(
T is strongest early game as of now but as of patch P will be strongest early
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easy way to fix ghost... make it actually up to a 100 energy meaning.. 1 ghost can only remove 100 energy per shot.. that way terran will have to expend half of what the toss player has to expend into the tech to get away with the win
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On March 13 2011 03:28 stormtemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:26 ZeromuS wrote:On March 13 2011 03:19 ilikeLIONZ wrote:On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". the point is, that a single emp can possibly do 1000 damage instantly, whereas a storm can be dodged "easily". means: you need several high templars until you get the SO ESSENTIAL aoe damage to only fight MMM. when you can't warp in the storms anymore, it's pointless to tech to ht because it is gonna be like gambling. will the T be able to dodge your few storms or will he not? will he get emps on your HTs or not. the conclusion is that you rather go for colossi instead of HT tech, and the T can go for vikings blindly. without the colossus, MMM just shred through any ball of gateway units. I wouldnt exactly call ht tech a gamble so much as Collossus tech providing a guaranteed amount of damage. In fact, If I have 6 sentries at full energy if they hit an emp on them I can still forcefield which makes my collossus that much better. This is a viable scenario, and I'll be glad of it. Those 6 10-12 FFs will be great for escaping, and letting my HTs recharge
Shift click double emp means that you don't have any energy. In other words, it takes 150 energy for a full EMP now.
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On March 12 2011 22:13 Alpina wrote:Very sad about infestor missile reverted Missile gives nice micro to the game - muta/phoenix/hellion micro would be really cool vs. FG. And I can't believe they reverted infestors hp - I mean what's the point?
It's not adding "nice micro" or "skill" to the game when you have to completely guess where your opponent is moving to.
People can bait and avoid FG as it is in it's current form. Adding the missile animation makes avoiding FGs easier and casting them goes from being quick on the trigger to basically guessing. That's not skill or micro and it detracts from the game.
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For people who think the EMP changes matters in TvP, the change from all energy to 100 energy only effects sentries.
A high templar needs maxed energy to storm after being hit with an EMP, this doesn't happen outside of bronze league.
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Canada13389 Posts
On March 13 2011 03:29 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:13 Alpina wrote:Very sad about infestor missile reverted Missile gives nice micro to the game - muta/phoenix/hellion micro would be really cool vs. FG. And I can't believe they reverted infestors hp - I mean what's the point? It's not adding "nice micro" or "skill" to the game when you have to completely guess where your opponent is moving to. People can bait and avoid FG as it is in it's current form. Adding the missile animation makes avoiding FGs easier and casting them goes from being quick on the trigger to basically guessing. That's not skill or micro and it detracts from the game.
Actually what it does is makes it so that a PDD dropped down by a Raven does NOT block the spell because it did in the PTR as I tested it with a friend real quick out of curiosity.
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I can imagine that they changed FG back is because of muta's in ZvZ.
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i really wish that all blues and the balance team are now forced to play with a stream so that we can see how they really play
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On March 12 2011 23:01 Hollis wrote:
A significant Spine Crawler build time reduction would help a lot, I think. 50 seconds is way too long.
I disagree. I think that would wreck zvz, and it'd boil it down to 7 pool spine crawler rushing
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I believe the stim nerf was specifically to eliminate the timing window where terrans would have stim but baneling speed hadn't quite finished. Its a really scary timing for a zerg. I think a side effect is making it easier to bust a terran fast expand with a couple timing push options.
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On March 13 2011 03:34 Cajun2k1 wrote:
I can imagine that they changed FG back is because of muta's in ZvZ.
I don't know why they're so obsessed with trying to get air units out of fungal, since it's becoming obvious that it hurts game play...
It's like they want phoenix and mutas to rule the game, only to take it back on the ptr
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On March 13 2011 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Stim change still sucks, it makes no sense - when was the last time terran did something that mmade you go "Man, if only stim was 30 seconds slower"?
Just gonna fuck up early game TvP and TvZ =/
How come you don't have blue posting, I almost missed you
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So infestors still die to 2 siege tank shots?
*sigh*
At least mass bio stim timing attacks will come later than usual..
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On March 13 2011 03:29 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:13 Alpina wrote:Very sad about infestor missile reverted Missile gives nice micro to the game - muta/phoenix/hellion micro would be really cool vs. FG. And I can't believe they reverted infestors hp - I mean what's the point? It's not adding "nice micro" or "skill" to the game when you have to completely guess where your opponent is moving to. People can bait and avoid FG as it is in it's current form. Adding the missile animation makes avoiding FGs easier and casting them goes from being quick on the trigger to basically guessing. That's not skill or micro and it detracts from the game.
How can you argue that you can avoid fungal in current form? Ofc you can bait a poor player to fungal on nothing, but once you are in range, cast and actually have your little circle above the enemy you cannot miss.
Ofc it's micro and skill involved in a projectile based spell. Are you somehow arguing that almost all skills in DotA/HoN are luck based? The way it's micro and skill based is how you predict movement and force movement to the way you want and apply exquisite timing. This is done in alot of sports (soccer, football etc).
I've read so many people arguing the same thing as you just did, and it's just completely disregarding every other thing that happens in the game besides the actual spell flying to a target area which imho is shortsighted.
That beeing said, it was probably too slow (the projectile) and could use tweaking, but whatever, they reverted it and zerg shall rejoice.
I hope they add something similar in a future expansion or whatever...
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On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it".
We are not QQing about the ghost nerf, but about the fact that blizzard doesn't look like they know what they are doing. I mean, why do you normally nerf something? Because it's a little bit too strong against a unit or something (in this case I guess it was HTs). But what did they do with the change? Almost nothing. There is no way a protoss will be able to have HTs with 175 energy or more in a game where the terran knows what he's doing. There is just no point in nerfing it if it's not gonna change anything, it only worrie people that might think blizzard don't know what to do.
EDIT: Typo
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On March 13 2011 03:44 PatouPower wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". We are not QQing about the protoss nerf, but about the fact that blizzard doesn't look like they know what they are doing. I mean, why do you normally nerf something? Because it's a little bit too strong against a unit or something (in this case I guess it was HTs). But what did they do with the change? Almost nothing. There is no way a protoss will be able to have HTs with 175 energy or more in a game where the terran knows what he's doing. There is just no point in nerfing it if it's not gonna change anything, it only worrie people that might think blizzard don't know what to do.
Oh they know what they're doing, I promise you this: they've been dealing with starcraft longer than you have. Maybe you should just learn to play better.
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On March 13 2011 03:47 SilverPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:44 PatouPower wrote:On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". We are not QQing about the protoss nerf, but about the fact that blizzard doesn't look like they know what they are doing. I mean, why do you normally nerf something? Because it's a little bit too strong against a unit or something (in this case I guess it was HTs). But what did they do with the change? Almost nothing. There is no way a protoss will be able to have HTs with 175 energy or more in a game where the terran knows what he's doing. There is just no point in nerfing it if it's not gonna change anything, it only worrie people that might think blizzard don't know what to do. Oh they know what they're doing, I promise you this: they've been dealing with starcraft longer than you have. Maybe you should just learn to play better.
Maybe you should learn to respect the opinions of other people and learn some manners. Just because he disagrees with you does not give you the right to say "Yeh, butz, you suck at game so shut up im right."
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On March 13 2011 03:47 SilverPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:44 PatouPower wrote:On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". We are not QQing about the protoss nerf, but about the fact that blizzard doesn't look like they know what they are doing. I mean, why do you normally nerf something? Because it's a little bit too strong against a unit or something (in this case I guess it was HTs). But what did they do with the change? Almost nothing. There is no way a protoss will be able to have HTs with 175 energy or more in a game where the terran knows what he's doing. There is just no point in nerfing it if it's not gonna change anything, it only worrie people that might think blizzard don't know what to do. Oh they know what they're doing, I promise you this: they've been dealing with starcraft longer than you have. Maybe you should just learn to play better.
Hum, I don't have problem with ghosts and I don't think it will be a huge problem post-patch either, I am just stating the facts: I wonder why blizzard put this nerf on. It won't change anything to TvZ, since an infestors is always in need somewhere to cast fungal growth to have more than 150 energy. It won't change anything to PvZ either for the same reason: an HT will almost never be able to get over 175 energy if a terran knows what he's doing. I don't know from where you got the fact that I was struggling against ghosts when I clearly said nothing about it affecting the game in a BAD way. The only point I was trying to make is why they are nerfing it. That's all.
Oh, and will you tell Jinro that he sucks at the game too because he said stim nerf was plain stupid? Blizzard knows their game and they are good at balancing it, but they are human and can make mistakes.
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No amulet is a bummer when it comes to fun factor and spectating, but am I the only one looking forward to the new Zealot change?
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Ok, so they revoked the change everyone liked (fungal as a missile) and kept the change everyone hated (no Khaydarin Amulet).
Can't say I'm thrilled. The EMP nerf will sort of help offset the loss of KA, I guess. I don't see why they insist on keeping Infestors so fragile, but it's a minor point for me.
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On March 13 2011 03:57 Hokay wrote:
No amulet is a bummer when it comes to fun factor and spectating, but am I the only one looking forward to the new Zealot change?
No, I'm very happy about it as it's the biggest change for my own gameplay since I incorporate alot of Zealots in my vT play .
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On March 13 2011 03:59 3clipse wrote:
Ok, so they revoked the change everyone liked (fungal as a missile) and kept the change everyone hated (no Khaydarin Amulet).
Except that "everyone" didn't like having FG as a missile. Just look at the thread; for every 3 posts bitching about KA's removal, there's one post bitching about FG now being dodgeable.
I'm mostly indifferent myself.
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On March 13 2011 03:59 3clipse wrote:
Ok, so they revoked the change everyone liked (fungal as a missile) and kept the change everyone hated (no Khaydarin Amulet).
Can't say I'm thrilled. The EMP nerf will sort of help offset the loss of KA, I guess. I don't see why they insist on keeping Infestors so fragile, but it's a minor point for me.
What? Who liked fungal as missile? It moved SO SLOWLY. It was a joke.
All the other changes I don't mind. Though I feel they should remove investor armor class, or at least give it one natural armor
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On March 13 2011 03:59 3clipse wrote:
Ok, so they revoked the change everyone liked (fungal as a missile) and kept the change everyone hated (no Khaydarin Amulet).
Can't say I'm thrilled. The EMP nerf will sort of help offset the loss of KA, I guess. I don't see why they insist on keeping Infestors so fragile, but it's a minor point for me.
Really I thought it was the other way around.
That slow a projectile is ridiculous IMO. Mass marines would just be insanely powerful without any reasonable counter. You can easily dodge banelings and FG, so what could stop it? If the projectile was faster (or instant as now) it would be fine.
I thought most people admitted that KA made protoss completely unbreakable with warp in storm. I don't know why people are commenting so much on the EMP nerf. It doesn't seem major at all.
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On March 13 2011 04:08 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:59 3clipse wrote:
Ok, so they revoked the change everyone liked (fungal as a missile) and kept the change everyone hated (no Khaydarin Amulet). Except that "everyone" didn't like having FG as a missile. Just look at the thread; for every 3 posts bitching about KA's removal, there's one post bitching about FG now being dodgeable. I'm mostly indifferent myself.
On March 13 2011 04:09 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:59 3clipse wrote:
Ok, so they revoked the change everyone liked (fungal as a missile) and kept the change everyone hated (no Khaydarin Amulet).
Can't say I'm thrilled. The EMP nerf will sort of help offset the loss of KA, I guess. I don't see why they insist on keeping Infestors so fragile, but it's a minor point for me. What? Who liked fungal as missile? It moved SO SLOWLY. It was a joke. All the other changes I don't mind. Though I feel they should remove investor armor class, or at least give it one natural armor
I guess I misinterpreted the consensus, but there were also posts talking about how it could be cast just in front of an advancing army, keeping infestors safer. I'm not looking at it as a change that buffs the ability, but rather one that makes sc2 a better spectator sport. I think fg dodging could become a fun aspect of the game. Maybe a tweak to make the missile a bit faster would be needed, but I really liked the concept.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 13 2011 03:37 Jayrod wrote:
I believe the stim nerf was specifically to eliminate the timing window where terrans would have stim but baneling speed hadn't quite finished. Its a really scary timing for a zerg. I think a side effect is making it easier to bust a terran fast expand with a couple timing push options.
... Removing all timing pushes isnt good =/
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*generic protoss QQ about amulet nerf still being there and some mention of how emp still OP*
lol I mean from my own personal play I have noticed a few things, EMP is easier to get off than feedback and you can't storm a good spot if you trying to storm b4 the emp. I don't even know how to deal with good emp using terrans in this game as it is and now no amulet.......Yeah this game is totally better than BW........ >.>
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On March 13 2011 04:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:37 Jayrod wrote:
I believe the stim nerf was specifically to eliminate the timing window where terrans would have stim but baneling speed hadn't quite finished. Its a really scary timing for a zerg. I think a side effect is making it easier to bust a terran fast expand with a couple timing push options.
... Removing all timing pushes isnt good =/
Correction: removing all TERRAN timing is not good, eh, eh.
But seriously, this is the easiest way to fix this problem. The stim push is the hardest timming attack to stop, if they go ahead with the nerf then terrans will just have to adapt. Dw about it, if anyone can find a way to flip this nerf, you can.
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new fungal will be fun to use =]
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Funny that nobody mentions Cattlebruiser speed buffs. They are awesome. Definitely will be used more in team games since they dominate air with yamato guns.
And also it might change terran late game at high level.
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On March 13 2011 04:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:37 Jayrod wrote:
I believe the stim nerf was specifically to eliminate the timing window where terrans would have stim but baneling speed hadn't quite finished. Its a really scary timing for a zerg. I think a side effect is making it easier to bust a terran fast expand with a couple timing push options.
... Removing all timing pushes isnt good =/
Removing timings from T and giving them to Z isn't a bad thing either though, you are looking at this too strongly from one angle.
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On March 13 2011 04:56 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 04:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 13 2011 03:37 Jayrod wrote:
I believe the stim nerf was specifically to eliminate the timing window where terrans would have stim but baneling speed hadn't quite finished. Its a really scary timing for a zerg. I think a side effect is making it easier to bust a terran fast expand with a couple timing push options.
... Removing all timing pushes isnt good =/ Removing timings from T and giving them to Z isn't a bad thing either though, you are looking at this too strongly from one angle.
I kind of agree with this.
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On March 13 2011 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Stim change still sucks, it makes no sense - when was the last time terran did something that mmade you go "Man, if only stim was 30 seconds slower"?
Just gonna fuck up early game TvP and TvZ =/
Well, actually I think many zergs have though exactly that while they are frantically trying to spread that early creep that can help us get that crucial surround.
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On March 12 2011 22:10 CreepCrepe wrote:
Infestor still nerfed. Cool beans.
This still a huge buff, and i would rather have instant cast than missile than +20 health.
imagine if you have 3 infestors with 150 energy.
=6 fungal growths/ or 3 funglas on an entire protoss ball due to the size
So a Protoss ball with 30 Armored units comes at you, with 2 fungals you should be able to hit the entire army correct?
so 1 fungal on a armored unit does 45 damage/ 4 seconds
1 fungal on 30 armored units does 1350 damage/ 4 seconds
3 fungals on 30 armored units does 4050 damage/12 seconds
PRE PATCH
1 fungal 35 damage/8 seconds
1 fungal on 30 units = 1050 damage/ 8 seconds
3 fungals on 30 units= 3150 damage/24 seconds
The diffence between 24 seconds and 12 seconds is massive. Having a few infestors fungaling the protoss ball while fighting with roach hydra will become the meta game in zvp.
this will also change zvz due to the roach being armored, it could completely kill off the hydra.
I CANNOT WAIT!!
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i see nothing but bad things coming from this patch.
Sure a minor part of the issue with stim was that it came out early, but it was never the major point of argument. Adding 30 seconds is gonna do nothing but make it harder for terran to hold early pushes. Personally I don't think its a great addition.
EMP nerf does not affect the ghost vs. ht matchup at all, so the only other thing that I can think of is sentries. I suppose it's good since sentries usually tend to build up more than 100 energy, and if emp'd now they can still drop one or two ff's. However, if this nerf was intended to balance the KA removal, i'll lol quite a bit.
And by now you can tell that I'm one of the many brotoss not in favor of a KA removal, but in favor of a CD on storm upon warp-in.
I guess the infestor stuff seems to be pretty good from this patch, gives zerg some much needed dps against marine balls.
Overall though, I don't see many good changes from this patch. Things that should've worked in the first place (charge on zealots, battlecruiser speed) are finally being fixed, and things that it seems blizzard has no idea what to do with are getting nerfed and removed in the most random ways. It's pretty clear that theyre flailing random fixes into the air and testing them out without too much thought on all the implications. Pretty sure I'm gonna get trolled for that statement by someone going "LOL BLIZZARD HAS BEEN DOING THIS A LOT LONGER THAN YOU IDIOT".
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sweet now even though the infestor is just as weak as before so NP on tanks wont really work like they did on PTR before, this is a massive buff to the current infestor
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On March 13 2011 04:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:37 Jayrod wrote:
I believe the stim nerf was specifically to eliminate the timing window where terrans would have stim but baneling speed hadn't quite finished. Its a really scary timing for a zerg. I think a side effect is making it easier to bust a terran fast expand with a couple timing push options.
... Removing all timing pushes isnt good =/
Think of it as a shift of power. In fact, one angle of looking at is that there have been 2 timing pushes added to the game and one removed. P/Z have 30 seconds more to attack before stim finishes, while terran stim push gets delayed.
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I think all the join custom game changes are really cool. This will let good games not known very well to have an easier chance to get higher on the list.
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On March 13 2011 04:54 agnu wrote:
new fungal will be fun to use =]
Only difference is damage to armored, not really much new.
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so zerg "nerf" isn't happening, and terran is getting nerfed more?
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Perhaps this goes without saying, but the EMP nerf will make them less effective against infestors.
Currently infestors are usually countered by siege tanks, and that'll still work very well. However with fungal growth gaining a much higher burst damage, perhaps ghosts will become more popular? A more direct counter similar to getting them to snipe/EMP templars in TvP. Seems the change may have been made with this 'caster vs. caster' counter play in mind. Ensuring that EMP doesn't have an overwhelming advantage if one tries to counter infestors with ghosts.
Infestors are MUCH more likely to be high in energy compared to templar.
All the casters are getting a big (on paper) change in 1.3's recent notes, so it's probably best to consider how this can affect all matchups instead of the obvious TvP stuff where emp has always been particularly good (compared to TvZ and TvT)
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On March 13 2011 01:21 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 01:06 Grumbels wrote:On March 13 2011 00:58 TeWy wrote:
Why are they obsessed about details when there basically are units in SC2 that you almost never see at the Master/semi-pro/pro level ?
It would be so better if they made the hydraliskoffcreep/archons/mothership/ultralisks/warp-prism/reapers/carriers/raven decent instead of nerfing every good units.
What will happen if even before the 2 expansions each race has 2-3 SC1 scout-like unit ???
All these things are interconnected btw... Maybe if Warp-prism was really good, I mean having more than 140 HP an not being absolutely outrun by muta and stimmed-marines, Protoss could rely on multi-task instead of this gigantic stupid deathball of HT/Colossi, thus we wouldn't have to whine about an eventual Khaldarin amulet nerf...
Why is Blizzard obsessed with details? Because they tweaked a unit a little bit? They do that every patch, and it's the reason the balance is actually decent right now. What do you think will happen if they overhaul the game every single patch? Balance is not high because of Blizzard stupid tweaks, let me assure you of that. For playing the game since Beta, I know several nerfs/buffs that have been absolutely catastrophic and that weren't reverted for some reasons (HSM nerf for instance now you NEVER see it, pretty much same thing for reaper and now it will be the same for Mothership), some changes have been made and then have been reverted few months later, Zealot buildtime comes to mind but there are way more... People are getting better and are somehow balancing the game on their own because of the map-making and their sense of timing, that's it... What changes have been detrimental since Beta ? Warp-gate nerf, barrack nerf, stalker buff, roaches nerf, ultralisk buff, nexus HP buff, phoenix buff, on these ones everyone aggree... asides from that ? Probably tank nerf ... asides from that ? That's it. 7-8 good crucial changes out of more than 1 hundred in 1 year, what about the bad changes or the missing changes ? I'm pretty sure the number exceeds 7-8 by quite a lot. Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming I could necessarily do a better job, just that Blizzard balancing process has been very doubtful since Warcraft 3 and WoW.
I'm not sure what you are arguing. I think you just disagree with Blizzard's changes and pretend that it is a philosophical issue about balancing styles or something. You can call them stupid tweaks, but how else are you going to balance a game if not constantly tweaking and adjusting things?
Take the EMP change you were angry about. It makes EMP slightly weaker in some cases, requiring perhaps a few more ghosts per game, or forcing you to face a few more psi-storms or forcefields. That is the balancing part. The design part is the idea that getting one hit off with EMP shouldn't completely cripple all of your preperation, which I think is a good change for future balancing.
Now, what is so bad about this change? It doesn't break the game and possibly improves its design.
Another example, zealot, warpgate buildtimes were slightly changed throughout beta and early retail. Those timings for early units are important to get right as way to build future balance changes around, so it took some time to stabilize it, and now people are happy about it. Again, what is so bad about tweaking the game this way?
And actually, the changes you mentioned as very detrimental aren't tweaks. The seeker missle change was pretty big.
You also claim blizzard shouldn't touch the game and just let the community and maps create balance. What did you think would happen if blizzard hadn't patched the reaper? That somehow the zergs would just get better defending it and then everything would be fine? Or we'd need to create maps without ramps to balance around the reaper's power?
Or a less extreme example: roaches with 3 range made it pretty hard to fight protoss as zerg, should that never have been changed?
It's a bizarre claim in general. Blizzard constantly changed things throughout alpha, beta, even when initially thinking up the units. When should this stop, is there a set date or something where by retail you shouldn't patch the game anymore? You can not believe in imbalance as a personal preference, but blizzard isn't the community, they're the designers and should be very mindful of proper balance. You can get change-whiplash, where the game never becomes stable before something is changed yet again, but that just means you should be careful balancing, not that you should stop at all.
Furthermore, Brood War might have ended up balanced, but wasn't for large periods of time. I don't think it's right to have the game be imbalanced for like a year, and just hoping the community figures something out, because there are actual people playing this professionally, with leagues, sponsors, organizers all dependent on fun and exciting games. You can't just be stubborn with so much on the line, and in any case, the lost opportunity of the magic community insight to fix the match-up isn't really that big of a loss imo.
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On March 13 2011 06:02 Pug1911 wrote:
Perhaps this goes without saying, but the EMP nerf will make them less effective against infestors.
Currently infestors are usually countered by siege tanks,
You might've hit the nail on the head here. The change increases the viability of siege tanks vs. infestors, reduces the viability of ghosts vs. infestors. Having infestors stronger vs. siege tanks (i.e. with 110 health) and simultaneously nerfing emp vs casters may make infestor play relatively too strong in some situations vs. terran.
of course we're assuming omniscience on the part of the balance team. It could be just a gut feeling shot from the hip on their part too.
But really, 100 energy is still all (more than all?) the energy the HT will ever ever have. so its just a sentry buff vs ghosts in PvT.
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On March 12 2011 22:17 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:16 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
they nerfs the ghost emp so the protoss players who were complaining about HT should not cry now lol That change only helps if your HTs have 150-200 energy. How often do you see HTs with that much energy?
You rarely see it now, because there is no point in warping in templar that far in advance since you can warp in and storm instantly. But after this patch, it seems much more likely that protoss players will make their templar in advance and save up energy. If you make them ~3-4 minutes before battle, they can cast storm even after being hit by emp, and can cast 2 storms if they don't get hit by emp. That doesn't seem all that unreasonable.
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Honestly I dont think the Terran changes are going to make things easier for Zerg. 5 extra secs on bunkers is not going to stop bunker rushes, and adding 30 sec to stim means that T is going to hit Zerg with an extra 2 rounds of marines instead. Sure you get an extra round of larvae inject but thats not going to make or break defending vs the larger terran push.
I think the real effect of these changes will make Terrans weaker vs 4-gate, because 5 sec on your bunkers or 30 sec on your stim can make a big difference there. On some maps you cant get a 40 sec warning that a 4gate is coming. Typically you dont repair bunkers much vs Zerg, but you do repair them vs Protoss. And increasing the build time of the bunker means that repair will heal them less damage per second, which is already tough with forcefields. This is dangerous in combination with the HT change, because P will have less incentive to play a macro game.
This is what I think they should do to nerf bunker rushes and stim timing vs Zerg without making them weaker vs 4gate:
Bunker armor decreased from 2 to 1
Salvage effectiveness decreased from 100% to 50%
Neosteel armor research now also increases the armor of bunkers by 2
Stim movement speed bonus decreased from 50% to 33%
These changes would make bunker rushes actually cost something vs Zerg if they fail. They can still work if you invest resources into it, but if the Zerg successful fends it off you're actually punished for it. And by making Neosteel Armor research actually useful, the bunker can remain effective vs 4gate. As an added bonus, in combination with the building armor upgrade, it allows bunkers to be relevant in the mid-late game.
I think nerfing the movement speed portion of stim is the only way to fix the fundamentally broken synergy between stim and concussive shells. Zergs primary advantage vs Terran is the mobility of its units. And stim kiting with Medivac overhead is just too a bit too strong. These change would make it easier for Zergs to fend off fast stim pushes with lings without damaging the Marines role as the dps backbone of the Terran army. It has the sideeffect of making them weaker vs baneling/muta harass, but lets face it, marines are plenty strong against everything else.
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On March 13 2011 03:36 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 23:01 Hollis wrote:
A significant Spine Crawler build time reduction would help a lot, I think. 50 seconds is way too long.
I disagree. I think that would wreck zvz, and it'd boil it down to 7 pool spine crawler rushing
Oh yeah, I always forget that zergs can vs other zergs.
Nevertheless, I still think zerg needs something to help in the early game vs T and P, and perhaps more than that as well.
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On March 13 2011 06:20 Hollis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:36 reneg wrote:On March 12 2011 23:01 Hollis wrote:
A significant Spine Crawler build time reduction would help a lot, I think. 50 seconds is way too long.
I disagree. I think that would wreck zvz, and it'd boil it down to 7 pool spine crawler rushing Oh yeah, I always forget that zergs can vs other zergs. Nevertheless, I still think zerg needs something to help in the early game vs T and P, and perhaps more than that as well.
Hmm what about some of these changes?
Overlord armor increased from 0 to 1
Spawning Pool build time decreased from 65 to 60
Queen ground attack damage increased from 4(x2) to 5(x2)
Inactive creep tumor armor increased from 0 to 10 (active tumors unchanged)
Inactive creep tumor HP decreased from 50 to 25 (active tumors unchanged)
Baneling Nest cost changed from 100/50 to 150/0
Roach Warren build time increased from 55 to 60
Spine crawler build time decreased from 50 to 40
Spore crawler now detects even while uprooted
Root duration decreased from 12 to 8
Pneumatized carapace no longer requires Lair
Upgrade to Lair cost decreased from 150/100 to 100/100
Overseer armor increased from 1 to 2
Zerg units now only receive creep speed bonuses if they are on their teams creep
Creep is now color coded by team
You can no longer create buildings on your opponents creep (fyi this also prevents offensive tumors)
Protoss and Terran players can now create buildings on their team's creep in 2v2 3v3 and 4v4
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On March 13 2011 06:07 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 06:02 Pug1911 wrote:
Perhaps this goes without saying, but the EMP nerf will make them less effective against infestors.
Currently infestors are usually countered by siege tanks,
You might've hit the nail on the head here. The change increases the viability of siege tanks vs. infestors, reduces the viability of ghosts vs. infestors. Having infestors stronger vs. siege tanks (i.e. with 110 health) and simultaneously nerfing emp vs casters may make infestor play relatively too strong in some situations vs. terran. of course we're assuming omniscience on the part of the balance team. It could be just a gut feeling shot from the hip on their part too. But really, 100 energy is still all (more than all?) the energy the HT will ever ever have. so its just a sentry buff vs ghosts in PvT.
That's hyperbole, really. If you have a high templar that isn't fighting for about a minute after being warped in (without amulet, even) you will have more than 100 energy. This happens pretty often, so in all those occasions it will be a buff for high templars.
I have to say that upon further consideration I'm not really fond of the EMP change though. If I was a terran player and I'd EMP an infestor, I would want to be sure they couldn't use fungals anymore, without checking all of them for energy (might add beneficial mechanical requirements though?). It's more of a transparency issue in this case, because as a player it seems like it would just be so frustrating if you get a nice EMP off on all of his infestors, and then he has a clutch fungal growth to destroy your army anyway. If you had known he had the energy, you wouldn't have engaged, but you did and you lost the game.
I still do think the EMP change is mostly right. It is a problem that spellcasters can be so totally and completely shutdown by one well-aimed cast. I don't think there is any spell in the game that can be this strong while also being this hard to prevent or mitigate. And in my opinion it's bad for the game to have ghosts as hard-counters for other casters. It's not good design, because casters are skill-intensive, audience-favourite, fun units that you want your players to have to make. A ghost should be able to prevent some damage, but still leave casters cost-effective.
Actually, ghost vs infestor , ghost vs high templar are fun and tactical mini-games, because the first two can both cloak, but also essentially destroy the other unit if they so desire, so it's a very amusing "mission-style" type of gameplay, more inspiring than just finding the right concave as far as tactics go.
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On March 13 2011 04:28 ToyotomiXD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 04:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 13 2011 03:37 Jayrod wrote:
I believe the stim nerf was specifically to eliminate the timing window where terrans would have stim but baneling speed hadn't quite finished. Its a really scary timing for a zerg. I think a side effect is making it easier to bust a terran fast expand with a couple timing push options.
... Removing all timing pushes isnt good =/ Correction: removing all TERRAN timing is not good, eh, eh. But seriously, this is the easiest way to fix this problem. The stim push is the hardest timming attack to stop, if they go ahead with the nerf then terrans will just have to adapt. Dw about it, if anyone can find a way to flip this nerf, you can.
Stim timing push?Are you guys even diamond? Who the hell does that anymore :O ? This seems like another nerf to satisfy the lower leagues. Way to go blizzard.
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On March 13 2011 06:38 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 04:28 ToyotomiXD wrote:On March 13 2011 04:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 13 2011 03:37 Jayrod wrote:
I believe the stim nerf was specifically to eliminate the timing window where terrans would have stim but baneling speed hadn't quite finished. Its a really scary timing for a zerg. I think a side effect is making it easier to bust a terran fast expand with a couple timing push options.
... Removing all timing pushes isnt good =/ Correction: removing all TERRAN timing is not good, eh, eh. But seriously, this is the easiest way to fix this problem. The stim push is the hardest timming attack to stop, if they go ahead with the nerf then terrans will just have to adapt. Dw about it, if anyone can find a way to flip this nerf, you can. Stim timing push?Are you guys even diamond? Who the hell does that anymore :O ? This seems like another nerf to satisfy the lower leagues. Way to go blizzard.
Stim and a hellion? That's not exactly a low league timing attack.
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woulda liked the missile if it just shot faster and made it a skill shot, woulda made mutas viable in ZvZ again. I guess they decided they didn't quite want mutas and infestors roles over lapping somewhat, so they try to differentiate from them. Don't understand why the reverted the health change either and EMP is worse...
What I woulda liked:
everything the same in PTR except the following:
Amulet brought back in and gives +15 energy
EMP remains the same
infestor gains health buff and missile is 2x or maybe even 3x faster
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Wait, so what they did was they made fungal undodgeable again, they keep it at the higher dps so that two fungals kills marines and you can't outheal it, and they nerfed emp so that you can't actually emp fully energized infestors..
Why don't they skip the middle hand and just remove bio units from TvZ?
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On March 13 2011 07:02 VanGarde wrote:
Wait, so what they did was they made fungal undodgeable again, they keep it at the higher dps so that two fungals kills marines and you can't outheal it, and they nerfed emp so that you can't actually emp fully energized infestors..
Why don't they skip the middle hand and just remove bio units from TvZ?
Baseless wine ftw.
"Oh no the tier 3 unit that is mean to counter my tier 1 units is now very effective at countering them" Wahhhh what do I do?
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On March 12 2011 22:13 Alpina wrote:Very sad about infestor missile reverted Missile gives nice micro to the game - muta/phoenix/hellion micro would be really cool vs. FG. And I can't believe they reverted infestors hp - I mean what's the point?
Yeah. Also don't like the ghost change. Would prefer something like 100% energy 50 shields.
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I bet 90% of the people complaining about the ghost nerf don't even use ghosts.
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On March 12 2011 22:10 CreepCrepe wrote:
Infestor still nerfed. Cool beans.
I'm pretty sure this isn't a nerf
Fungal growth does the same amount of damage in half the time, and because of insta-cast, dodging it is the same as it was before.
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On March 13 2011 07:02 VanGarde wrote:
Wait, so what they did was they made fungal undodgeable again, they keep it at the higher dps so that two fungals kills marines and you can't outheal it, and they nerfed emp so that you can't actually emp fully energized infestors..
Why don't they skip the middle hand and just remove bio units from TvZ?
Well... you wouldn't need them to be entirely honest. Infestors will never end a game but the dps change will make them cost effective if the terran decides to transition into mech. I played my fair share of ZvT's with Infestors and haven't seen as much Ghosts as to say this change is necessary but the feel of having my infestors emp'd (which you basically can't prevent as soon as cloak is up) with loss of full energy is kinda redicoulus since Ultras are useless against Bio or Mech with bio support as long as you don't have fungal.
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Ghost nerf seems quite ok. 2 ghosts can still drain ALL your casters energy. Especially HTs are usually clumped up.
Hmm what about some of these changes?
[.. interesting changes..]
There are some very nice subtle buffs in that list for zerg.
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Hurray for the end of missile fungal! Impossible to hit mutas with them in Zvz ^^ HURRAY
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On March 13 2011 06:20 Hollis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 03:36 reneg wrote:On March 12 2011 23:01 Hollis wrote:
A significant Spine Crawler build time reduction would help a lot, I think. 50 seconds is way too long.
I disagree. I think that would wreck zvz, and it'd boil it down to 7 pool spine crawler rushing Oh yeah, I always forget that zergs can vs other zergs. Nevertheless, I still think zerg needs something to help in the early game vs T and P, and perhaps more than that as well.
Give zerg colonies like before. You make them first then transform into spore or sunken, in this case spine crawler. This way no 7pool crawler rush because it takes the same 50s in total but now you can put colonies a lot cheaper in advance and transform them quickly when you see units coming. So it would be a good middle ground.
Something like half the price for colony that takes 30s to build and another half to transform into spine with 20s build time.
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I am happy as a zerg player that they took away the health buff for the instant cast and I still see people complain about the health buff not being there because they run their infestors into tanks. Hmmm...
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I'm actually excited to see how these changes play out. The infestor play should get pretty interesting in all match ups. The dps increase is going to make them so much more offensive. I'm also glad they removed the missle, as that seems more like a dota/wc3 ability.
The whole amulet and ghost EMP changes i'm more skeptical about. I don't think it's terrible but I'm worried they're nerfing too much. I would prefer buffing rather than nerfing for this game.
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Perfect, now just add +15 starting energy to amulet and we are done. And maby revert the EMP change.
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Honestly I dont think the Terran changes are going to make things easier for Zerg. 5 extra secs on bunkers is not going to stop bunker rushes, and adding 30 sec to stim means that T is going to hit Zerg with an extra 2 rounds of marines instead. Sure you get an extra round of larvae inject but thats not going to make or break defending vs the larger terran push.
Uhm, in bunker rush situations (and pretty much all situations that involve the defensive structures) every second counts. I disagree with 5 seconds not being a big deal. I've easily lost by 5 seconds with spinecrawlers several times.
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On March 12 2011 22:58 Klonere wrote:As a Zerg scrub, I feel that the missle change was actually ok. I would have liked it to be a lot faster if it were to be implemented. I feel it would lead to more emphasis on micro tricks at a a high level. Watching players predict and dodge fungals would be extremely exciting. The removal of the Viking Flower and Archon Toilet is pretty dumb still. A lot of BW micro was based around "breaking" the game and making units do things they were never designed to in the first place (Muta stacking being the big example). Both the Viking Flower and Archon Toilet are really neat little tricks that players can incorporate into their play. They are not imbalanced or game breaking at all. It just seems to be taking away interesting techniques from SCII for no reason
Yea i agree from a spectators point of view i think the missile change would have made infestor based play really exciting to watch, the missile even looks cool when its shot, ah well nice change for zerg would have been cool though even if they made it a bit faster so it was almost instant and only the most micro intensive players would beable to dodge it by a bit.
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On March 13 2011 07:19 JerKy wrote:I'm pretty sure this isn't a nerf Fungal growth does the same amount of damage in half the time, and because of insta-cast, dodging it is the same as it was before.
I agree with that. Plus,Zergs have to start using the fact that they can move while burrowed. I dont think the hp increase was even necessary. I guess it takes a little more micro but whatever, it`s an advantage that Terran takes all the time with their ghosts (they cloack them).It`s better to try and find solutions instead of waiting for changes to come.
Plus,all the tank shots talk is funny because, Terran are very lazy with their detection, they rarely make Ravens, and they use their comsat energy for Mules instead of Scans.
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On March 13 2011 07:05 Reason.SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 07:02 VanGarde wrote:
Wait, so what they did was they made fungal undodgeable again, they keep it at the higher dps so that two fungals kills marines and you can't outheal it, and they nerfed emp so that you can't actually emp fully energized infestors..
Why don't they skip the middle hand and just remove bio units from TvZ? Baseless wine ftw. "Oh no the tier 3 unit that is mean to counter my tier 1 units is now very effective at countering them" Wahhhh what do I do?
Toss have been saying that along time now. Seems like zerg now get how ridiculous this complain about bio t1 being destroyed by t3 is.
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Zerg still needs a way to scout terran early game. Overlord saccing is easily denied by having marines at the edge while you keep your tech buildings in the center. It can also be denied by pure luck if the overlord is sent in at the opposite side of the tech buildings, leaving terran with more than enough time to snipe it down before it sees anything.
Considering how gamebreaking a helion/banshee push is and how hard it is for zerg to react, something needs to be changed to allow zerg to atleast have a decent chance to scout their enemies. Also, proper AA at tier1 is required due to the insane efficiency of banshees and how easy they kill queens which are zerg's only mobile AA at tier 1. A helion into banshee harass is currently brutally effective as you're forced to put resources into the helion push leaving you defenseless vs banshees that are coming a minute later.
This patch is definitely a step in the right direction but sadly it does absolutely nothing to alleviate the issues with zergs weakness to early harass. It's a problem which has become increasingly frustrating as of late, with more and more terrans taking advantage of the limitations of zerg scouting.
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On March 13 2011 07:02 VanGarde wrote:
Wait, so what they did was they made fungal useful again, they keep it at the higher dps so that two fungals kills marines and you can't just ignore Zerg's choice of lair tech because you have medivacs, and they nerfed emp so that you have to emp twice fully energized infestors..
Why don't they skip the middle hand and just make it so I have to give the tiniest of fucks what Zerg is making?
Few spelling mistakes there I caught for you
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Honestly I don't see the point of a major balance patch before HotS, it's not like the game is completely broken right now. The only changes that make sense are the increase to bunker build time (although removing salvage would be infinitely better) and fixing charge. A Khaydarin Amulet nerf to make it give even 20 instead of 25 energy would be sensible too, since toss could still defend drops with warp storms as long as they scouted them, but removing it is confusingly bad.
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On March 13 2011 08:22 Creem wrote:
This patch is definitely a step in the right direction but sadly it does absolutely nothing to alleviate the issues with zergs weakness to early harass. It's a problem which has become increasingly frustrating as of late, with more and more terrans taking advantage of the limitations of zerg scouting.
It also completely sidesteps the issue of collosus balls which, from what I've read here, seems to be the biggest issue people have with the game right now.
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On March 13 2011 07:02 VanGarde wrote:
Wait, so what they did was they made fungal undodgeable again, they keep it at the higher dps so that two fungals kills marines and you can't outheal it, and they nerfed emp so that you can't actually emp fully energized infestors..
Why don't they skip the middle hand and just remove bio units from TvZ?
rofl this sounds awfully familiar.
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On March 13 2011 07:02 VanGarde wrote:
Wait, so what they did was they made fungal undodgeable again, they keep it at the higher dps so that two fungals kills marines and you can't outheal it, and they nerfed emp so that you can't actually emp fully energized infestors..
Why don't they skip the middle hand and just remove bio units from TvZ?
I know right, why dont they just remove bio units from zerg too since siege tanks own them all OH WAIT EVERY ZERG UNIT BIO
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On March 13 2011 08:29 jalstar wrote:
Honestly I don't see the point of a major balance patch before HotS, it's not like the game is completely broken right now. The only changes that make sense are the increase to bunker build time (although removing salvage would be infinitely better) and fixing charge. A Khaydarin Amulet nerf to make it give even 20 instead of 25 energy would be sensible too, since toss could still defend drops with warp storms as long as they scouted them, but removing it is confusingly bad.
Fucking this. No insta-storm. Removing the Amulet altogether instead of doing this is just dumb.
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I wonder how viable templar will be vs. muta-ling -> ultra 300 food pushes now.
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On March 13 2011 08:46 caradoc wrote:
I wonder how viable templar will be vs. muta-ling -> ultra 300 food pushes now.
why wouldnt it be viable?
spawn a couple in your base pre-emptively
zerg doesnt have EMP so youll always have the energy
except you wont be throwing around emps like nothing
which will add more skill to end game ZvP
because lets be honest.
4+ base Toss late game those warp in storms are MAD cheap and outrageously cost effective
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yeah, I dunno, 45 seconds is a long time on xnc vs. a swarm of speedlings when you've lost the bulk of your army.
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Bio will still be viable. It's just that pure bio will not be as effective, but no one goes pure bio anymore. It's harder to play and riskier. This will make Tank positioning more crucial in warding off infestors, and Ghost micro crucial in pushing out with marines.
People are overrating both Amulet and EMP. Removal of Amulet won't change much, except the usage of disposable Templars where you fire and forget. It was never a good design, in my opinion. EMP is still good. 100 energy will still drastically cut the number of storms and forcefields a Protoss army has.
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On March 12 2011 23:51 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 23:17 Grummler wrote:On March 12 2011 23:10 Dommk wrote:On March 12 2011 23:05 Grummler wrote:On March 12 2011 22:58 WickedBit wrote:On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". Most protosses recognize that amulet is way OP. It definitely need the nerf but just doing away with it is too much. It is sort of like saying that stimmed marines are too good...so lets remove stim! This is not a good way to balance. They should try to nerf overpowered abilities first and then remove it if and only if the said ability is impossible to balance in any form. Well, i dont disagree. I only want people to recognize that the emp got a significant nerf, not a weird kind of buff. I never said that removing the amulet was the best way to balance the ht. On a side note: Removing the amulet doesnt equal removing stim, because hts can storm afterall... Its more like delaying storm for every individual ht. I think his analogy holds quite well. The entire sense of "if something is too powerful, then lets remove it!" If High Templars started off with 0 energy then the entire tech tree is about as useless as an un-stimmed marine late game.. and I completely disagree with you saying that emp nerf was "significant", how was it significant? High Templars need 175 energy to Storm after an EMP now, that is still such a stupidly high number, especially if there are multiple ghosts. Why is everyone taking 175 energy as some kind of treshold? EMP removes 100 energy, not 175. So everything above 100 (!) energy will make a difference, not 175. Also, i dislike how nobody talks about sentries. They DO have a lot of energy very often. Also you cant just emp multiple times. Emp needs energy as well. Every emp needed more to get rid of a ht is one emp less hitting somewhere else. This is right. People are saying as if emp doesn't require energy, Terran has to create ghosts before battles, and they are way more expensive than HTs. Yes, we all know that ghosts can shoot, but how often you see ghost's dps affect the battle? Most of the time they sacrifice themselves to get the emp off. And it's not like HTs don't have skill that remove energy anyway. Ghost remove 100 energy and shield aoe target, HTs remove all the energy and deal direct damage with less energy but single target. It's just a battle of who is sneakier. Of course each of us like one over another, but that adds the variety in sc2. imo, what HTs need is a speed buff, so that they can be worth warping in from the beginning, right now they are just too slow to be a mobile unit, most of the time they are nothing but static defense.
I'm going to stop you right there. You cant honestly tell me that "100 minerals = way more expensive" For starters the HT tech costs a lot more, the Ghost has a (powerful) basic attack for when it runs out of energy, as well as an extremely inexpensive secondary ability *cough snipe cough*. Don't forget that ghosts move at the same speed as the rest of you army an can be upgraded with cloak. If you don't think all of that is worth 100 minerals you are insane.
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On March 13 2011 09:00 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 23:51 canikizu wrote:On March 12 2011 23:17 Grummler wrote:On March 12 2011 23:10 Dommk wrote:On March 12 2011 23:05 Grummler wrote:On March 12 2011 22:58 WickedBit wrote:On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". Most protosses recognize that amulet is way OP. It definitely need the nerf but just doing away with it is too much. It is sort of like saying that stimmed marines are too good...so lets remove stim! This is not a good way to balance. They should try to nerf overpowered abilities first and then remove it if and only if the said ability is impossible to balance in any form. Well, i dont disagree. I only want people to recognize that the emp got a significant nerf, not a weird kind of buff. I never said that removing the amulet was the best way to balance the ht. On a side note: Removing the amulet doesnt equal removing stim, because hts can storm afterall... Its more like delaying storm for every individual ht. I think his analogy holds quite well. The entire sense of "if something is too powerful, then lets remove it!" If High Templars started off with 0 energy then the entire tech tree is about as useless as an un-stimmed marine late game.. and I completely disagree with you saying that emp nerf was "significant", how was it significant? High Templars need 175 energy to Storm after an EMP now, that is still such a stupidly high number, especially if there are multiple ghosts. Why is everyone taking 175 energy as some kind of treshold? EMP removes 100 energy, not 175. So everything above 100 (!) energy will make a difference, not 175. Also, i dislike how nobody talks about sentries. They DO have a lot of energy very often. Also you cant just emp multiple times. Emp needs energy as well. Every emp needed more to get rid of a ht is one emp less hitting somewhere else. This is right. People are saying as if emp doesn't require energy, Terran has to create ghosts before battles, and they are way more expensive than HTs. Yes, we all know that ghosts can shoot, but how often you see ghost's dps affect the battle? Most of the time they sacrifice themselves to get the emp off. And it's not like HTs don't have skill that remove energy anyway. Ghost remove 100 energy and shield aoe target, HTs remove all the energy and deal direct damage with less energy but single target. It's just a battle of who is sneakier. Of course each of us like one over another, but that adds the variety in sc2. imo, what HTs need is a speed buff, so that they can be worth warping in from the beginning, right now they are just too slow to be a mobile unit, most of the time they are nothing but static defense. I'm going to stop you right there. You cant honestly tell me that "100 minerals = way more expensive" For starters the HT tech costs a lot more, the Ghost has a (powerful) basic attack for when it runs out of energy, as well as an extremely inexpensive secondary ability *cough snipe cough*. Don't forget that ghosts move at the same speed as the rest of you army an can be upgraded with cloak. If you don't think all of that is worth 100 minerals you are insane.
It's funny when people talk about the Ghost EMP nerf as if it changes things. 100 energy is still A LOT of energy. If all the PTR changes go through, the only way a Ghost's EMP won't render a HT useless (ie no more storms) is if the HT has 175+ energy, which requires the HT to have over 200 seconds of sitting, waiting, building up energy, and in general being useless.
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lol EMP nerf doesnt do SHIT. now if a templar SOMEHOW has 175+ energy, the terran has to emp them twice(zomg that takes waaay too much skill)
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I think I see a trend here, whoever gets his race nerfed whines just enough for blizzard to screw with the other race. If my race gets nerfed I will complain to blizzard, and since blizzard is fair and partial they will equally nerf your race.
I hate this but I think for HTs, protoss will have to build warp prism to carry them along with the protoss deathball. Similar to how shuttles were used in BW.
What I am hating about SC2 is the amount of units you need to actually have an army. Long are gone the days were three to four units were enough for an army.
I mean the toss deathball consists of, stalkers, zealots, sentries, colossus, hts sometimes immortals other times phoenix or voidrays. That's a lot of units. From a spectator stand point that's going to get boring quickly.
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I have to side with some people that the change to EMP is sort of, non-factor. If anything it looks like a knee-jerk reaction to appease protoss players for saying EMP is too strong as well as thinking that with this nerf to amulet they'll be truly helpless to ever win games beyond divine intervention.
EMP might have seemed strong when amulet was researched and an HT would be warped in only to not fight for another minute or two, THEN did a ghost that was just build with moebius reactor seem strong. Though with amulet being removed maybe numbers won't be as high now. But is it EMPs fault that a player keeps all his templar or an entire army grouped? At higher levels you don't see this but I have a feeling a good number of the "emp is op" crowd at guilty of this charge.
Oddly however, feedback still exists to such a strength where even with the movement change to BCs, I'm still not inclined to say they still will be seldom seen in TvP, especially now since more ghosts will be needed!
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it.
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still want to remove amulet? sigh i don't want HTs anymore
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On March 13 2011 09:19 ExoD wrote:
lol EMP nerf doesnt do SHIT. now if a templar SOMEHOW has 175+ energy, the terran has to emp them twice(zomg that takes waaay too much skill)
emp removes 100 energy, not 175. Now use your brain.
Hint:
+ Show Spoiler + every HT with more then 100 energy will have storm ready faster, if they get emped. So the important energy value for the emp nerf to make a difference is 100, not 175.
Protoss has more then 1 unit with energy.
Hint:
+ Show Spoiler +they are called sentries and will be very happy protoss units, because they actually have more than 100 energy very often
to emp twice is not much harder than to emp once. But still, its not as easy.
Hint:
+ Show Spoiler +emp costs 75 energy, so you cant be like "lol, i just emp every single protoss unit twice
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If I am correct
while watching SanZenith vs terran in top8(on metapolis)
sanzeniths army value was under by like 50-60
but
with 2-3 warp in storms
he was able to even it out and eventually win the game
but sanzenith had major skill of feedbacking ghosts
dont be QQing about EMP if you cant feedback them
a major reason why san was able to hold into the match
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They revoked the hp increase to infestors? :/
Damn...
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On March 13 2011 09:36 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 09:19 ExoD wrote:
lol EMP nerf doesnt do SHIT. now if a templar SOMEHOW has 175+ energy, the terran has to emp them twice(zomg that takes waaay too much skill) emp removes 100 energy, not 175. Now use your brain. Hint: + Show Spoiler + every HT with more then 100 energy will have storm ready faster, if they get emped. So the important energy value for the emp nerf to make a difference is 100, not 175.
psionic storm costs 75 energy. Now use your brain.
Hint:
+ Show Spoiler +if you emp a HT with 175 energy before this patch they can't cast storm right after it. if you emp a HT with 175 energy after this patch they can cast storm right after. So, to stop HT with 175+ energy from storming your army after this patch, you would have to hit them with 2 emps. That's what ExoD was pointing out.
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In patch 1.3 for a high templar to still have energy left over after an EMP it must be on the field for 3:45 game time. For it to be able to storm once with no emp involved it has to be on the field for 44 seconds.
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Fungal Growth will now be quite brutally effective against Protoss Death Balls
Voids, Stalkers and Cols all stack up and are all armored. Repeated Fungals on a triple stacked set of units will be brutally effective, and do a very good job of softening up the group for the attack.
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On March 13 2011 10:11 Jayrod wrote:
In patch 1.3 for a high templar to still have energy left over after an EMP it must be on the field for 3:45 game time. For it to be able to storm once with no emp involved it has to be on the field for 44 seconds.
hey that's the build time of a ghost! thank your warp in for your nerf!
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On March 13 2011 10:29 Sv1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 10:11 Jayrod wrote:
In patch 1.3 for a high templar to still have energy left over after an EMP it must be on the field for 3:45 game time. For it to be able to storm once with no emp involved it has to be on the field for 44 seconds. hey that's the build time of a ghost! thank your warp in for your nerf!
I don't even play protoss man I was just posting this up for the sake of the thread
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Definitly don't like that ghost change. I use ghosts to bust sentry heavy army compos. Now I can't win with just 2, because any protoss that spreads I won't hit but 1-2 sentries per EMP, for 100 per cast..
Kinda rough IMO.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
OMG, every faction have their weakness and strong things.
Feedback can kill caster, EMP have area-radius, so you can burn 5-10 templar's energy with 2 EMPs.
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On March 13 2011 10:33 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Definitly don't like that ghost change. I use ghosts to bust sentry heavy army compos. Now I can't win with just 2, because any protoss that spreads I won't hit but 1-2 sentries per EMP, for 100 per cast..
Kinda rough IMO.
Do you even know how rough it is being on the receiving end of the emp? Before you could 3gate expo with 5-6 sentries against terran, have ~1000 energy total saved up and have 800 gone in 2 emps, even with decent spread. Not only that, shields are gone too and suddenly the early gateway ball is free for you to stim in and slaughter. The strength of the sentries early game for the most part is to save energy and make it much much harder to die to rushes, and complement the army later on.
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mm changes seem interesting. As a terran player I have to agree that emp was op and needed a fix. Will be curious as to the state of the meta game after patch 1.3.
What's with the bunker time increase though...(bunkers arn't very abusive right now considering zerg can just place spine in front of hatch)
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On March 12 2011 22:23 Alpina wrote:Yes, appears they were extremely hard to kill with 110 hp ^^
This is the one change I was really looking forward to and then they revoke it apparently they were hard to kill. But couldn't they change to say 100 in th tvz matchup that would mean 2 tank shots wouldn't be enough if the tanks had vanilla weapons but once upgrades kicked in its the same as now where they have 90 health. Of course I can't speak for the pvz match up but o well.
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On March 13 2011 09:29 hitman133 wrote:
still want to remove amulet? sigh i don't want HTs anymore
I used to talk like that when i was 8 years old. Come on man, you`re just gonna have to adjust the timing on your Ht, or sack a collussus to had a few more Ht. It`s that simple.
You got to summon the spirit of Boxer and finda solution instead of crying for injustice...
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Does anyone know when this patch will actually be implemented into the game?
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On March 13 2011 10:13 Zanez.smarty wrote:
Fungal Growth will now be quite brutally effective against Protoss Death Balls
Voids, Stalkers and Cols all stack up and are all armored. Repeated Fungals on a triple stacked set of units will be brutally effective, and do a very good job of softening up the group for the attack.
Wait, what?
30% increased damage to armoured units, but a 50% reduction in the amount of time it actually stays on units?
Seeing as though everything Protoss have outrange Infestors, I don't understand how this is a buff at all.
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On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
I have to side with some people that the change to EMP is sort of, non-factor. If anything it looks like a knee-jerk reaction to appease protoss players for saying EMP is too strong as well as thinking that with this nerf to amulet they'll be truly helpless to ever win games beyond divine intervention.
EMP might have seemed strong when amulet was researched and an HT would be warped in only to not fight for another minute or two, THEN did a ghost that was just build with moebius reactor seem strong. Though with amulet being removed maybe numbers won't be as high now. But is it EMPs fault that a player keeps all his templar or an entire army grouped? At higher levels you don't see this but I have a feeling a good number of the "emp is op" crowd at guilty of this charge.
Oddly however, feedback still exists to such a strength where even with the movement change to BCs, I'm still not inclined to say they still will be seldom seen in TvP, especially now since more ghosts will be needed!
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it.
Well the simple solution to that is to stop building an army composed 90% of marines when against infester baneling. Are you actually complaining your base t1 unit gets countered by the units that are supposed to counter them?
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On March 13 2011 11:04 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
I have to side with some people that the change to EMP is sort of, non-factor. If anything it looks like a knee-jerk reaction to appease protoss players for saying EMP is too strong as well as thinking that with this nerf to amulet they'll be truly helpless to ever win games beyond divine intervention.
EMP might have seemed strong when amulet was researched and an HT would be warped in only to not fight for another minute or two, THEN did a ghost that was just build with moebius reactor seem strong. Though with amulet being removed maybe numbers won't be as high now. But is it EMPs fault that a player keeps all his templar or an entire army grouped? At higher levels you don't see this but I have a feeling a good number of the "emp is op" crowd at guilty of this charge.
Oddly however, feedback still exists to such a strength where even with the movement change to BCs, I'm still not inclined to say they still will be seldom seen in TvP, especially now since more ghosts will be needed!
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. Well the simple solution to that is to stop building an army composed 90% of marines when against infester baneling. Are you actually complaining your base t1 unit gets countered by the units that are supposed to counter them?
I don't think he was at all complaining about the changes to infestor, and in fact praising them.
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I cant wait for the the HT change. Its extremely hard for terran to capitalise on winning a fight at the current state vs HTs.
And really, it is basicly like giving HT a building time which is really nessesary once toss hits 3+ bases. Hell collusus have 75 sec buildtime. This will obviously hurt 2 base HTs, but lets be honest, at the current state, we see collusus first not because HTs are that much worse. We see it becaue HTs are a ridiculusly big and long investment that often times lead to death by timing push not to mention the lag of ability to scout. Once you get to 3+ bases the investment into HT tech gets relatively smaller and less risky.
I really think its a good change and I really dont think its going to mean we wont see HTs used the same way it currently is. I think it will be pretty much the same without protoss being too strong lategame.
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Finally, an EMP nerf. I think this is a fair trade; sentries and templars don't get (as) owned by an e+click ability, and Protoss is a bit more nerfed late game.
I still think early game needs some work, but oh well...
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On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it.
..... Have you had a stroke recently?
The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT.
User was warned for this post
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Ghosts still magically cause the pulse to appear at the target location and also are still able to EMP without requiring an upgrade. Blizzard's proposed EMP change will rarely make a difference (although it will allow 150+ energy templar to always get a feedback on ghosts, which will rarely matter because the EMP will also knock the ghost's energy down).
EDIT: Guy above me, they doubled the dps of fungal growth and halved the duration causing the damage to be the same. Do you really think they would just slash the total damage caused by fungal in half?
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On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT.
I don't see anything in the patch about the FG damage being halved.
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On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT.
Maybe I'm mistaken but i was under the impression that the damage is the dame, just dealt over 4 s instead of 8 now.
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On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT.
Last four seconds instead of eight . . . and does twice the dps.
Keep your insults and your ignorance to yourself.
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On March 13 2011 11:24 chenchen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Last four seconds instead of eight . . . and does twice the dps. Keep your insults and your ignorance to yourself.
It does 30% increased to armoured units. Marines aren't armoured.
It doesn't take a genius to understand that if fungal growth lasts for half the time, half the damage is going to be dealt? 30% does not equal double, in fact it's so far from it when we are dealing with numbers below ten.
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On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT.
lol i guess something dosen't understand maths. The DPS is higher now.
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On March 13 2011 11:22 Weasel- wrote:
Ghosts still magically cause the pulse to appear at the target location and also are still able to EMP without requiring an upgrade. Blizzard's proposed EMP change will rarely make a difference (although it will allow 150+ energy templar to always get a feedback on ghosts, which will rarely matter because the EMP will also knock the ghost's energy down).
EDIT: Guy above me, they doubled the dps of fungal growth and halved the duration causing the damage to be the same. Do you really think they would just slash the total damage caused by fungal in half?
Ghost have 50 energy out of the gate, they need Moebius to get the +25 before they can EMP immediately.
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On March 13 2011 11:25 CreepCrepe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:24 chenchen wrote:On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Last four seconds instead of eight . . . and does twice the dps. Keep your insults and your ignorance to yourself. It does 30% increased to armoured units. Marines aren't armoured.
..i'm not sure you understand.
Yes it does 30% more to armoured. And yes marines aren't armoured. Tht's completely unrelated.
The DPS has doubled for unarmoured units and it's even better for armoured units now.
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On March 13 2011 11:26 PartyBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:22 Weasel- wrote:
Ghosts still magically cause the pulse to appear at the target location and also are still able to EMP without requiring an upgrade. Blizzard's proposed EMP change will rarely make a difference (although it will allow 150+ energy templar to always get a feedback on ghosts, which will rarely matter because the EMP will also knock the ghost's energy down).
EDIT: Guy above me, they doubled the dps of fungal growth and halved the duration causing the damage to be the same. Do you really think they would just slash the total damage caused by fungal in half? Ghost have 50 energy out of the gate, they need Moebius to get the +25 before they can EMP immediately.
I meant that it doesn't have to be researched at the ghost academy first, like psi storm, hallucination, etc.
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On March 13 2011 11:28 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:25 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 11:24 chenchen wrote:On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Last four seconds instead of eight . . . and does twice the dps. Keep your insults and your ignorance to yourself. It does 30% increased to armoured units. Marines aren't armoured. ..i'm not sure you understand. Yes it does 30% more to armoured. And yes marines aren't armoured. Tht's completely unrelated. The DPS has doubled for unarmoured units and it's even better for armoured units now.
Show me where it says this in the patch notes. It doesn't.
Besides, you're not understanding.
Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1 damage every second for 8 seconds. So I hit you for 8 damage with my fungal growth.
Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1.3 damage for 4 seconds. So I damage you for 5.2 damage with my fungal growth.
!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
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On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT.
Fungal now does the same total damage, but lasts half the time, i.e. its DPS has been doubled, ignoring the 30% boost to armored. The notes are ambiguous, but ask people who have played on the PTR.
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I think warping in a few ht's as soon as the templar archives are done would be a good way for toss players to adapt to these changes. No KA will mean you don't have an incentive to wait till it finishes before warping in ht's. Then the emp nerf will further promote advanced warping and accumulating ht energy, similar to how sentries are often used.
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On March 13 2011 11:31 benefluence wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Fungal now does the same total damage, but lasts half the time, i.e. its DPS has been doubled, ignoring the 30% boost to armored. The notes are ambiguous, but ask people who have played on the PTR.
Oh cool. Carry on everyone.
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On March 12 2011 22:47 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:16 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
they nerfs the ghost emp so the protoss players who were complaining about HT should not cry now lol As if the nerfs were even comparable.
As if buy-a-storm is comparable to emp.
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On March 13 2011 11:29 CreepCrepe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:28 blooblooblahblah wrote:On March 13 2011 11:25 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 11:24 chenchen wrote:On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Last four seconds instead of eight . . . and does twice the dps. Keep your insults and your ignorance to yourself. It does 30% increased to armoured units. Marines aren't armoured. ..i'm not sure you understand. Yes it does 30% more to armoured. And yes marines aren't armoured. Tht's completely unrelated. The DPS has doubled for unarmoured units and it's even better for armoured units now. Show me where it says this in the patch notes. It doesn't. Besides, you're not understanding. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1 damage every second for 8 seconds. So I hit you for 8 damage with my fungal growth. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1.3 damage for 4 seconds. So I damage you for 5.2 damage with my fungal growth. !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
the damage is not given in terms of duration. It is not like you did 1 dmg per second over 8 seconds to marines, and now you only do 1 dmg per second over 4 seconds=half DPS.
the damage TOTAL, regardless of the time it takes to be dealt, was 36 to non armored before the patch. FG STILL DOES 36 damage, now over a 4 second time period. that is, the SAME amount of damage is being dealt, over a shorter period of time.
36/8= 4.5 DPS
36/4= 9 DPS
im really amazed youre calling people out for being idiots after posting what you did.....
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On March 13 2011 11:29 CreepCrepe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:28 blooblooblahblah wrote:On March 13 2011 11:25 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 11:24 chenchen wrote:On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Last four seconds instead of eight . . . and does twice the dps. Keep your insults and your ignorance to yourself. It does 30% increased to armoured units. Marines aren't armoured. ..i'm not sure you understand. Yes it does 30% more to armoured. And yes marines aren't armoured. Tht's completely unrelated. The DPS has doubled for unarmoured units and it's even better for armoured units now. Show me where it says this in the patch notes. It doesn't. Besides, you're not understanding. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1 damage every second for 8 seconds. So I hit you for 8 damage with my fungal growth. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1.3 damage for 4 seconds. So I damage you for 5.2 damage with my fungal growth. !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Omg, i can't believe your level of maths. Tht is not how you calculate DPS at all. Of course it's not in the patch notes because it's so obvious.
Right now the infestor does 36 damage over 8 seconds. Tht's 4.5 damage per second i believe (or something close to tht).
In patch 1.3 the infestor does 36 damage over 4 seconds. Tht's 9 damage per second.
Asking someone whether they had a stroke recently is extremely rude, considering how wrong u are.
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On March 13 2011 11:25 CreepCrepe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:24 chenchen wrote:On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Last four seconds instead of eight . . . and does twice the dps. Keep your insults and your ignorance to yourself. It does 30% increased to armoured units. Marines aren't armoured. It doesn't take a genius to understand that if fungal growth lasts for half the time, half the damage is going to be dealt? 30% does not equal double, in fact it's so far from it when we are dealing with numbers below ten.
If you deal 36 damage in 4 seconds, you are doing damage twice as fast as if you were doing 36 damage over 8 seconds. Same damage per cast, but shorter duration with bigger ticks. This dps is even HIGHER on armored units, where you get another 30% damage on top of the base damage.
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On March 13 2011 11:35 CreepCrepe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:31 benefluence wrote:On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Fungal now does the same total damage, but lasts half the time, i.e. its DPS has been doubled, ignoring the 30% boost to armored. The notes are ambiguous, but ask people who have played on the PTR. Oh cool. Carry on everyone.
Apparently you = very far from a genius
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On March 13 2011 11:29 CreepCrepe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:28 blooblooblahblah wrote:On March 13 2011 11:25 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 11:24 chenchen wrote:On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Last four seconds instead of eight . . . and does twice the dps. Keep your insults and your ignorance to yourself. It does 30% increased to armoured units. Marines aren't armoured. ..i'm not sure you understand. Yes it does 30% more to armoured. And yes marines aren't armoured. Tht's completely unrelated. The DPS has doubled for unarmoured units and it's even better for armoured units now. Show me where it says this in the patch notes. It doesn't. Besides, you're not understanding. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1 damage every second for 8 seconds. So I hit you for 8 damage with my fungal growth. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1.3 damage for 4 seconds. So I damage you for 5.2 damage with my fungal growth. !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
You're either an idiot or you haven't played the PTR at all.
Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1 damage every second for 8 seconds. So I hit you for 8 damage with my fungal growth.
This is correct prepatch.
Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1.3 damage for 4 seconds. So I damage you for 5.2 damage with my fungal growth.
This is wrong.
Oh hello marine. I'm going to fungal growth you for 2 damage every second for 4 seconds. So I hit you for 8 damage with my fungal growth.
This is postpatch.
Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 2.6 damage for 4 seconds. So I damage you for 10.4 damage with my fungal growth.
Postpatch armored.
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On March 13 2011 11:42 thesauceishot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:35 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 11:31 benefluence wrote:On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Fungal now does the same total damage, but lasts half the time, i.e. its DPS has been doubled, ignoring the 30% boost to armored. The notes are ambiguous, but ask people who have played on the PTR. Oh cool. Carry on everyone. Apparently you = very far from a genius
No need to be a dick about it.
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On March 13 2011 11:43 King of Blades wrote:
haven't played the PTR at all.
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On March 13 2011 11:43 King of Blades wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:29 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 11:28 blooblooblahblah wrote:On March 13 2011 11:25 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 11:24 chenchen wrote:On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Last four seconds instead of eight . . . and does twice the dps. Keep your insults and your ignorance to yourself. It does 30% increased to armoured units. Marines aren't armoured. ..i'm not sure you understand. Yes it does 30% more to armoured. And yes marines aren't armoured. Tht's completely unrelated. The DPS has doubled for unarmoured units and it's even better for armoured units now. Show me where it says this in the patch notes. It doesn't. Besides, you're not understanding. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1 damage every second for 8 seconds. So I hit you for 8 damage with my fungal growth. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1.3 damage for 4 seconds. So I damage you for 5.2 damage with my fungal growth. !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! You're either an idiot or you haven't played the PTR at all. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1 damage every second for 8 seconds. So I hit you for 8 damage with my fungal growth. This is correct prepatch. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1.3 damage for 4 seconds. So I damage you for 5.2 damage with my fungal growth. This is wrong. Oh hello marine. I'm going to fungal growth you for 2 damage every second for 4 seconds. So I hit you for 8 damage with my fungal growth. This is postpatch. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 2.6 damage for 4 seconds. So I damage you for 10.4 damage with my fungal growth. Postpatch armored.
But Fungal Growth does 36 damage (excluding +30% vs armoured in future patch). Am I missing something here? I understand all the double DPS arguments, I just don't get where you're getting your numbers from.
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On March 13 2011 11:28 Weasel- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:26 PartyBiscuit wrote:On March 13 2011 11:22 Weasel- wrote:
Ghosts still magically cause the pulse to appear at the target location and also are still able to EMP without requiring an upgrade. Blizzard's proposed EMP change will rarely make a difference (although it will allow 150+ energy templar to always get a feedback on ghosts, which will rarely matter because the EMP will also knock the ghost's energy down).
EDIT: Guy above me, they doubled the dps of fungal growth and halved the duration causing the damage to be the same. Do you really think they would just slash the total damage caused by fungal in half? Ghost have 50 energy out of the gate, they need Moebius to get the +25 before they can EMP immediately. I meant that it doesn't have to be researched at the ghost academy first, like psi storm, hallucination, etc.
feedback doesn't need to be researched and is available right at 50 energy, it also drains ALL energy and does equal damage to the amount of energy drained. I see no problem other than HT are still very good against infestors and zerg still has no real response to HT other than mass roach.
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Feedback hits a single target. A ghost's EMP can strip energy from all of the casters at once, AND does about 500 damage to their supporting army on average. I'm not sure how you can make that comparison. And mass roach is a pretty damn good response to HTs.
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On March 13 2011 11:47 Belisarius wrote:
Feedback hits a single target. A ghost's EMP can strip energy from all of the casters at once, AND does about 500 damage to their supporting army on average. I'm not sure how you can make that comparison. And mass roach is a pretty damn good response to HTs.
Feedback can kill something, EMP can't. In fact EMP doesn't do any real damage depending on how you look at it.
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I'm fairly sure 500 shields is 500 less points of damage the army can take. That's real damage.
And are we really arguing that feedback is OP? It's a useful ability, sure, it's saved my bacon a couple of times, but I don't think it's in the same league as EMP and storm.
Also ghosts have snipe, which can actually kill HTs just like feedback kills ghosts.
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from a design perspective its is wise to remove amulet. amulet removes any concept of energy management. It's a boring upgrade that made the full upgrade path for HT's insanely expensive and time consuming, as well. Remove it, then find a way to balance around it not existing.
things that would go a long way in putting HT's in the right place after amulet removal:
1. improve HT mobility
2. fix archon mobility issues
3. storm research baseline/cheaper/faster
4. any buff in the tech path, dt's included
honestly with how easily archon's mobility issues are abused gotta say HT's have better mobility, even for how slow they move.
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On March 13 2011 11:53 Belisarius wrote:
I'm fairly sure 500 shields is 500 less points of damage the army can take. That's real damage.
And are we really arguing that feedback is OP? It's a useful ability, sure, it's saved my bacon a couple of times, but I don't think it's in the same league as EMP and storm.
here is the difference. You can spread out your units and take less than you would from EMP. If it takes two EMPs to effectively remove your energy thats 150 energy. If it takes two feedbacks to remove two ghosts, that's 100 energy, no amulet required. I guess the hard part is having to click the ghost but that doesn't seem to be a problem at the highest levels of play.
your snipe argument is valid.
I'm not really trying to compare HT and Ghosts here, I'm just pointing out that infestors although they gained a buff against terran from ghosts, they still get sufficiently owned by HT feedback.
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On March 13 2011 11:53 Belisarius wrote:
I'm fairly sure 500 shields is 500 less points of damage the army can take. That's real damage.
And are we really arguing that feedback is OP? It's a useful ability, sure, it's saved my bacon a couple of times, but I don't think it's comparable to EMP.
I said "depending on how you look at it" because, in an optimal situation for the Protoss they can simply retreat and regenerate shields.
I wasn't saying that Feedback is OP, it's just the way you phrased your original post that I quoted made it sound like you thought it's a useless ability.
All I wanted to say that was an EMP will never, ever, ever kill a unit. Ever. One EMP will not kill something, it needs to be supported. One feedback can kill a ghost, raven, medivac or banshee instantly, as well as doing a fair amount of damage to a battlecruiser. You can recover from an EMP by retreating, you can't recover from a properly done feedback because it'll kill whatever's targeted.
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On March 13 2011 11:56 emc wrote:
here is the difference. You can spread out your units and take less than you would from EMP. If it takes two EMPs to effectively remove your energy thats 150 energy. If it takes two feedbacks to remove two ghosts, that's 100 energy, no amulet required. I guess the hard part is having to click the ghost but that doesn't seem to be a problem at the highest levels of play.
your snipe argument is valid.
I'm not really trying to compare HT and Ghosts here, I'm just pointing out that infestors although they gained a buff against terran from ghosts, they still get sufficiently owned by HT feedback.
They do, you're right, but unless the HTs are maxed or in the narrow energy window between 125 and 150, each feedback costs me a storm. Yes, doing it costs you a fungal as well, but to me that's a reasonably fair trade off.
The infestor HP buff did make them harder to feedback down, but in a PvZ deathball situation the fungal changes are a definite buff, so you're still better off than you were pre-patch.
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On March 13 2011 11:25 CreepCrepe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:24 chenchen wrote:On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Last four seconds instead of eight . . . and does twice the dps. Keep your insults and your ignorance to yourself. It does 30% increased to armoured units. Marines aren't armoured. It doesn't take a genius to understand that if fungal growth lasts for half the time, half the damage is going to be dealt? 30% does not equal double, in fact it's so far from it when we are dealing with numbers below ten.
creep......the changes say duration not damage... it deals the SAME damage in a shorter time. If the damaged was nerfed it would say specifficaly (sp?) that the damage was changed not just the duration.
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All I wanted to say that was an EMP will never, ever, ever kill a unit. Ever. One EMP will not kill something, it needs to be supported. One feedback can kill a ghost, raven, medivac or banshee instantly, as well as doing a fair amount of damage to a battlecruiser. You can recover from an EMP by retreating, you can't recover from a properly done feedback because it'll kill whatever's targeted.
Do people just completely forget about snipe? Not to mention that the ghost can actually attack? If you're thinking like this then why don't you just snipe things so you can actually kill them?
Is it really that much worse than feedback? You can kill regardless of opponent's energy and you can hit more units.
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These are some of my thoughts on this patch that i don't think have been mentioned yet. 1. the stim Nerf will not just slow down stim timing pushes, imagine if a terran player goes for a 3 rax build- 2 tech labs 1 reactor- this will take longer to research stim, shell, and shield upgrade. this will allow for faster expansions from the Protoss player. (Especially with the larger maps in the the map pool except for close positions slag pits). If the Protoss player is going for templar before collosi (which is my favorite strategy at the moment) getting a fast 2nd expansion and building mainly immortals, zealots and sentries on 2 bases allows for a really quick 3rd if the terran lets me get a fast 2nd.- i guess the nerf will no longer allow 2 base templar which is not that good anyways. Once on 3 bases and getting templar tech even without the amulet, while not as strong as with the amulet is quite balanced. (i am a toss 3300 diamond with about a 70% win rate vs Terran if not higher, if i could just figure out how to win vs zerg lol- i guess mutas are going to be a bitch as well now) so overall in the ghost vs templar it will be about balanced as it will be easier for protoss to get a good economy to support an army while waiting for templar to gain energy.
i also think zergs may have an easier time with the stim push delay but i don't play zerg so i can not comment.
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On March 13 2011 12:05 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +All I wanted to say that was an EMP will never, ever, ever kill a unit. Ever. One EMP will not kill something, it needs to be supported. One feedback can kill a ghost, raven, medivac or banshee instantly, as well as doing a fair amount of damage to a battlecruiser. You can recover from an EMP by retreating, you can't recover from a properly done feedback because it'll kill whatever's targeted. Do people just completely forget about snipe? Not to mention that the ghost can actually attack? If you're thinking like this then why don't you just snipe things so you can actually kill them? Is it really that much worse than feedback? You can kill regardless of opponent's energy and you can hit more units.
hey, don't get me wrong, I didn't forget about snipe!
The problem is, please correct me if I'm wrong, but due to the delay inbetween snipes (around half a second I believe?) if a single templar is going to try and feedback your single ghost it's impossible to snipe it twice (as you need two snipes to kill them) before they can get a feedback off. It's better to simply EMP the templar as you know that, as long as you do it right, you can EMP them before they can feedback.
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On March 13 2011 11:56 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:53 Belisarius wrote:
I'm fairly sure 500 shields is 500 less points of damage the army can take. That's real damage.
And are we really arguing that feedback is OP? It's a useful ability, sure, it's saved my bacon a couple of times, but I don't think it's in the same league as EMP and storm. here is the difference. You can spread out your units and take less than you would from EMP. If it takes two EMPs to effectively remove your energy thats 150 energy. If it takes two feedbacks to remove two ghosts, that's 100 energy, no amulet required. I guess the hard part is having to click the ghost but that doesn't seem to be a problem at the highest levels of play. your snipe argument is valid. I'm not really trying to compare HT and Ghosts here, I'm just pointing out that infestors although they gained a buff against terran from ghosts, they still get sufficiently owned by HT feedback.
not here to argue apples to oranges, but just to comment:
spreading units for EMP is not the practical way to go about things. we have 3, maybe 4 hotkeys available for our army, which typically include sentries in one group and HT's in another. because of having two spell casters in our army this is a necessity, but it forces manual splitting of the army vs EMP which is a lot of work for a long range, relatively fast moving, medium radius, point-and-shoot AOE ability. Even having ghosts in range of your army whether you can split your army fast or not is still a huge liability. The correct response is to use HT's to ward off the ghosts.
pre-splitting your army is all well and good but come on..you are going to be spending all your time re-adjusting your armies positioning and re-spreading everything out just to avoid 1 cast from 1 unit that will INSTANTLY take away ~50% of your armies HP and ~50%+ energy. Storm is harder to dodge but its much easier avoiding at least some of its damage after it's been laid down.
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On March 13 2011 11:57 Jimmeh wrote:
I said "depending on how you look at it" because, in an optimal situation for the Protoss they can simply retreat and regenerate shields.
I wasn't saying that Feedback is OP, it's just the way you phrased your original post that I quoted made it sound like you thought it's a useless ability.
All I wanted to say that was an EMP will never, ever, ever kill a unit. Ever. One EMP will not kill something, it needs to be supported. One feedback can kill a ghost, raven, medivac or banshee instantly, as well as doing a fair amount of damage to a battlecruiser. You can recover from an EMP by retreating, you can't recover from a properly done feedback because it'll kill whatever's targeted.
I want to make this really clear, because you said this twice and it's flat out not true most of the time.
It's insanely hard to retreat from a terran ball that's just EMP'd you properly. It's not at all a case of "oh, that was a nice emp, I'd better not engage right now." I have no choice if it's done well.
A lot of my units will have no shields, so damage I take retreating goes straight to hp and is permanent. I've lost a lot of my sentries, so an FF wall is either not possible or will cost me all the energy I have left. The terran army under stim is faster than everything I have on the ground, and the marauders' concussive is a death sentence for whatever it hits. Add to this the fact that my most valuable units, my HTs, are the slowest things I own and will fall behind as I pull back, and I'm committed by the time your first unit starts shooting at mine.
One or two ghosts, ahead of an army, EMPing in advance, yes, I can retreat. But if the Terran stims in army to army throwing EMP's, I have to stand and fight.
Also, for a HT to go from 0 energy back to storm is several minutes. There's no way you'll leave me alone for that time.
In spite of this rant, I personally don't think the matchup is too bad, and I agree that warp-in storm is fairly stupid, but you need to understand how much power and flexibility your speed + emp gives you, and that we don't have the same options.
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On March 13 2011 11:44 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:42 thesauceishot wrote:On March 13 2011 11:35 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 11:31 benefluence wrote:On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Fungal now does the same total damage, but lasts half the time, i.e. its DPS has been doubled, ignoring the 30% boost to armored. The notes are ambiguous, but ask people who have played on the PTR. Oh cool. Carry on everyone. Apparently you = very far from a genius No need to be a dick about it.
My remark looks timid in comparison to his.
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The EMP change may also be directed towards other units with energy. Like BCs and other units with lots of energy like the mothership which hasn't seen much use in PvT. This may allow it to be used effectively especially with HTs there too and no vikings on the field.
Also, Fungal growth will be doing 9 dps for 4 seconds instead of 4.5 dps for 8 seconds. That's not even counting vs armored. That means you can effectively out DPS the healing of medivacs with FG and lings alone and not need so many banelings. The reduction on the root is the only downside, but zerg should always get a few mutas to handle drop harass vs T and P.
Overall, the uniqueness each race has is awesome. Which allows for a huge dynamic of play in this wonderful strategy game. You have to strategically and tactically work around the other race's/player's strengths while accommodating your own.
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On March 13 2011 12:15 xseverityx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:56 emc wrote:On March 13 2011 11:53 Belisarius wrote:
I'm fairly sure 500 shields is 500 less points of damage the army can take. That's real damage.
And are we really arguing that feedback is OP? It's a useful ability, sure, it's saved my bacon a couple of times, but I don't think it's in the same league as EMP and storm. here is the difference. You can spread out your units and take less than you would from EMP. If it takes two EMPs to effectively remove your energy thats 150 energy. If it takes two feedbacks to remove two ghosts, that's 100 energy, no amulet required. I guess the hard part is having to click the ghost but that doesn't seem to be a problem at the highest levels of play. your snipe argument is valid. I'm not really trying to compare HT and Ghosts here, I'm just pointing out that infestors although they gained a buff against terran from ghosts, they still get sufficiently owned by HT feedback. not here to argue apples to oranges, but just to comment: spreading units for EMP is not the practical way to go about things. we have 3, maybe 4 hotkeys available for our army, which typically include sentries in one group and HT's in another. because of having two spell casters in our army this is a necessity, but it forces manual splitting of the army vs EMP which is a lot of work for a long range, relatively fast moving, medium radius, point-and-shoot AOE ability. Even having ghosts in range of your army whether you can split your army fast or not is still a huge liability. The correct response is to use HT's to ward off the ghosts. pre-splitting your army is all well and good but come on..you are going to be spending all your time re-adjusting your armies positioning and re-spreading everything out just to avoid 1 cast from 1 unit that will INSTANTLY take away ~50% of your armies HP and ~50%+ energy. Storm is harder to dodge but its much easier avoiding at least some of its damage after it's been laid down.
This kind of post is the completely wrong way to approach balancing things.
Basically, you assume that "because it's hard to do, it's not a viable option so it should be changed". Essentially, posts like this are saying "Blizzard, please balance SC2 for lower level players" which is completely the wrong way to go about it.
Starcraft 2 should be balanced for, almost, perfect play.
"We have 3, maybe 4, hotkeys available for our army"- No, you have 10. If your arguments are either I need to hotkey buildings or I can't physically use all available control groups (or something similar) then you're low level and the game shouldn't be balanced around you.
"Splitting units for EMP is not practical" - No, it is practical. Ever see Terrans splitting bio vs banelings? 99% of that is done without hotkeys.
"[If you are] pre-splitting your army... you are going to be spending all your time re-adjusting your armies positioning..." - No. If you're a high level player, you'll be able to do this in a second.
On March 13 2011 12:16 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:57 Jimmeh wrote:
I said "depending on how you look at it" because, in an optimal situation for the Protoss they can simply retreat and regenerate shields.
I wasn't saying that Feedback is OP, it's just the way you phrased your original post that I quoted made it sound like you thought it's a useless ability.
All I wanted to say that was an EMP will never, ever, ever kill a unit. Ever. One EMP will not kill something, it needs to be supported. One feedback can kill a ghost, raven, medivac or banshee instantly, as well as doing a fair amount of damage to a battlecruiser. You can recover from an EMP by retreating, you can't recover from a properly done feedback because it'll kill whatever's targeted. I want to make this really clear, because you said this twice and it's flat out not true most of the time. It's insanely hard to retreat from a terran ball that's just EMP'd you properly. It's not at all a case of "oh, that was a nice emp, I'd better not engage right now." I have no choice if it's done well. A lot of my units will have no shields, so damage I take retreating goes straight to hp and is permanent. I've lost a lot of my sentries, so an FF wall is either not possible or will cost me all the energy I have left. The terran army under stim is faster than everything I have on the ground, and the marauders' concussive is a death sentence for whatever it hits. Add to this the fact that my most valuable units, my HTs, are the slowest things I own and will fall behind as I pull back, and I'm committed by the time your first unit starts shooting at mine. One or two ghosts, ahead of an army, EMPing in advance, yes, I can retreat. But if the Terran stims in army to army throwing EMP's, I have to stand and fight. Also, for a HT to go from 0 energy back to storm is several minutes. There's no way you'll leave me alone for that time. In spite of this rant, I personally don't think the matchup is too bad, and I agree that warp-in storm is fairly stupid, but you need to understand how much power and flexibility your speed + emp gives you, and that we don't have the same options.
Don't worry man, I know what you mean and agree with you. I just wanted to play devil's advocate to get some decent gameplay discussion going instead of, what I viewed the thread as, "lol no one's going to use templar anymore" or "lol ghosts are still op".
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I just realized... it only takes two fungals to kill an infestor.
This is gonna get messy.
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My thoughts on some of it and I think that some of these changes, while probably balancing the game are also very bad for the game.
Fungal growth probably needs a buff, but as Idra mentioned the change is kind of bad because it makes it more similar to storm. The characteristik thing about fungal has always been the root effect and how it synergizes with 4 range roaches, slow hydras, melee units and ofc. the baneling. Now they are turning it in to more of a damage spell similar to storm. So while the buff will probably good for balance its pretty damn bad for the game, making the races more similar. The same happens so HTs which are basicly having a buildtime added to them. Both changes are good for balance, but its a step in the wrong direction and balancing the game like that will have us playing nothing but mirrormatches with different skins after the last expansion is out.
The change to Stim is imo really bad. If they make good larger maps that itself should be big enough nerf to stim timing pushes. However bigger maps will not make protoss all ins less effective (you can always proxy that one techstructure where a terran really cant proxy 3 barracks). So what this change will end up doing is nerfing the ability for terran to hold protoss all ins and just overnerfing the ablility to do stim pushes which are already nerfed by changing the map pool.
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Am I the only one to get the feeling that this infestor change will rip the spine out of the current balance -concretely, I mean- ? (I play zerg mind you).
vP: Holding off a 3 gate/4 gate will mean instant victory if you get 3 or 4 infestors (shorter duration = damage done quicker + buff vs armored = AOE spam vs stalkers. That's cool we don't even need these expensive hydras anymore :-/)
vZ: Pretty much means whoever gets infestor first can stall the game for as long as he wants. 90% of the zerg arsenal already dying to 2 or 3 fungals, vs armored bonus will only make it degenerate even deeper into 200 roach vs 200 roach 1a "wish for the best" plays.
vT: Not quite sure about that one. I almost see it as a possibly imbalanced situation. Again, +armor damage/faster damage output means that you'll just have to fungal the front marauders 1 or 2 times then 1a banelings with zero hope for the terran to heal up or avoid getting steamrolled.
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Okay, i LOVE the change of EMP. I really really really like it, even though I can't imagine its going to impact the matchup very much at all, its still a good thought by blizzard and helpful to show they are using their brains properly.
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On March 13 2011 12:29 Armsved wrote:
My thoughts on some of it and I think that some of these changes, while probably balancing the game are also very bad for the game.
Fungal growth probably needs a buff, but as Idra mentioned the change is kind of bad because it makes it more similar to storm. The characteristik thing about fungal has always been the root effect and how it synergizes with 4 range roaches, slow hydras, melee units and ofc. the baneling. Now they are turning it in to more of a damage spell similar to storm. So while the buff will probably good for balance its pretty damn bad for the game, making the races more similar. The same happens so HTs which are basicly having a buildtime added to them. Both changes are good for balance, but its a step in the wrong direction and balancing the game like that will have us playing nothing but mirrormatches with different skins after the last expansion is out.
The change to Stim is imo really bad. If they make good larger maps that itself should be big enough nerf to stim timing pushes. However bigger maps will not make protoss all ins less effective (you can always proxy that one techstructure where a terran really cant proxy 3 barracks). So what this change will end up doing is nerfing the ability for terran to hold protoss all ins and just overnerfing the ablility to do stim pushes which are already nerfed by changing the map pool.
I agree with this completely. Whilst I think the fungal growth change will be more useful vs Protoss (in particular the armoured damage increase), the main use for FG was not to do damage but to hold an army in place whilst you used banelings to kill the army.
And the stim timing thing is exactly what I and others have been saying. Stim timing pushes are counterable now, and on larger maps they will be even easier to hold. By increasing the stim research you're simply making it harder to deal with all-ins.
This guy is a genius. Everything I've seen him post has been 100% accurate. I'm guessing you're a high level player?
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Fungal growth probably needs a buff, but as Idra mentioned the change is kind of bad because it makes it more similar to storm. The characteristik thing about fungal has always been the root effect and how it synergizes with 4 range roaches, slow hydras, melee units and ofc. the baneling. Now they are turning it in to more of a damage spell similar to storm. So while the buff will probably good for balance its pretty damn bad for the game, making the races more similar. The same happens so HTs which are basicly having a buildtime added to them. Both changes are good for balance, but its a step in the wrong direction and balancing the game like that will have us playing nothing but mirrormatches with different skins after the last expansion is out.
Even if I were to accept that the change makes FG more like Psi Storm, I don't buy your logical wedge argument. Just because one thing becomes slightly more like some other thing doesn't mean that the game is evolving towards mirror matchups.
And I don't see how removing KA makes HTs more like other units. Yes, it gives them a "build time," but that doesn't change the fact that they can still be built anywhere at any time. Nor does it change the fact that they can still be converted into Archons. Or any of the other differences between HTs and other units. All it does is remove Psi Storm on demand.
The only other alternative to that is just junking Psi Storm entirely and replacing it with a new spell. Which quite frankly, I'd be in favor of. But Blizzard isn't willing to make major changes like that without an expansion. Also, for some reason, Blizzard considers some things to be unchangable, like Terrans having Siege Tanks or Protoss having Psi Storm.
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I like the ghost nerf, but still sad about HTs, now Protoss need a composition btwn gatesway units, HTs and colossus. HTs to feedback or storm the vikings only.
Anh BTW is ghost still drain all of the shield from protoss units or just the same amount of energies ?
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On March 13 2011 13:07 hitman133 wrote:
I like the ghost nerf, but still sad about HTs, now Protoss need a composition btwn gatesway units, HTs and colossus. HTs to feedback or storm the vikings only.
Anh BTW is ghost still drain all of the shield from protoss units or just the same amount of energies ?
EMP never drained all the energy from shields (a pretty common misconception from what I've seen), it removes, and always has removed, 100 from the Protoss shields.
The change is that now EMP only removes 100 energy instead of, potentially, all the targeted units' energy.
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On March 13 2011 12:49 NicolBolas wrote:
And I don't see how removing KA makes HTs more like other units. Yes, it gives them a "build time," but that doesn't change the fact that they can still be built anywhere at any time. Nor does it change the fact that they can still be converted into Archons. Or any of the other differences between HTs and other units. All it does is remove Psi Storm on demand.
Thing is, some of the inherent advantages of Protoss are being removed along with KA. Should anyone attempt to go HT (which i seriously doubt they will if the nerf goes through as is), why warp them in anywhere but back in a corner of your base where they'll be most protected? They are some of the squishiest units in the game, and coupled with their move speed/uselessness you lose near all incentive to warp them in wherever you want. I agree that archons are pretty good, but tbh they have pretty low range, very small splash radius, and the biggest problem of them all...they're not massive :\. The fact that they're not massive makes them nigh unusable against terran, as by the time they get into range to do much damage, they will have already exploded. Psi storm on demand is currently too powerful. Add a 10 second cooldown on warp-in/Decrease the energy gained from KA/etc etc where the templar doesnt have to be a sitting duck for 45 seconds building energy would be more than acceptable. And if people think "well you can just protect your templars better", you REALLY need to play with templars once.
Also, does no one understand that any decent player will not let his templars sit around gathering energy much past 75? It's such a waste of gas if you let them sit there gathering energy past a certain threshold. EMP nerf can't be meant to compensate for the HT nerf, it is most likely compensating for the fact that sentries currently are insta-rendered useless by an EMP, usually meaning that the protoss army is roflstomped.
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I actually wonder if they changed the emp for emp rush that they were talking about instead of to help ht's.
Where was this? Can you link please or say where? If it was that good of a rush then most likely it was xD
Why is everyone taking 175 energy as some kind of treshold? EMP removes 100 energy, not 175. So everything above 100 (!) energy will make a difference, not 175. Also, i dislike how nobody talks about sentries. They DO have a lot of energy very often.
Because if you're talking about whether a HT can storm or not, anything under 175 will not be different (at the exact time after the EMP).
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On March 13 2011 12:30 C5Five wrote:
Am I the only one to get the feeling that this infestor change will rip the spine out of the current balance -concretely, I mean- ? (I play zerg mind you).
vP: Holding off a 3 gate/4 gate will mean instant victory if you get 3 or 4 infestors (shorter duration = damage done quicker + buff vs armored = AOE spam vs stalkers. That's cool we don't even need these expensive hydras anymore :-/)
Can't say much about the other two match-ups, as I play mostly zerg and toss. However, the infestor definitely won't get out in time for 3gate/4gate push, so it shouldn't be too detrimental to the balance there. Personally I think the addition of the +30% damage to stalkers is going to be pretty annoying, but I think it'll be nice for zerg to have other options.
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On March 13 2011 12:49 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +Fungal growth probably needs a buff, but as Idra mentioned the change is kind of bad because it makes it more similar to storm. The characteristik thing about fungal has always been the root effect and how it synergizes with 4 range roaches, slow hydras, melee units and ofc. the baneling. Now they are turning it in to more of a damage spell similar to storm. So while the buff will probably good for balance its pretty damn bad for the game, making the races more similar. The same happens so HTs which are basicly having a buildtime added to them. Both changes are good for balance, but its a step in the wrong direction and balancing the game like that will have us playing nothing but mirrormatches with different skins after the last expansion is out. Even if I were to accept that the change makes FG more like Psi Storm, I don't buy your logical wedge argument. Just because one thing becomes slightly more like some other thing doesn't mean that the game is evolving towards mirror matchups. And I don't see how removing KA makes HTs more like other units. Yes, it gives them a "build time," but that doesn't change the fact that they can still be built anywhere at any time. Nor does it change the fact that they can still be converted into Archons. Or any of the other differences between HTs and other units. All it does is remove Psi Storm on demand. The only other alternative to that is just junking Psi Storm entirely and replacing it with a new spell. Which quite frankly, I'd be in favor of. But Blizzard isn't willing to make major changes like that without an expansion. Also, for some reason, Blizzard considers some things to be unchangable, like Terrans having Siege Tanks or Protoss having Psi Storm.
You are right that the changes wont make infestors, HTs and ghosts identical. However it will make them closer to identical.
The main characteristik of infestors is the root and the role of the infestor was to root the units so your main army could do damage. I dont know wether or not it will be the case, but if infestors are turned into pure damage dealers its pretty bad for the game.
The main characteristik of protoss gateway units has been the warpin. With the nerf to HTs they are basicly getting a build time. Yes you can still warp them in, but lets not fool ourself, they will pretty much be useless till storm is up.
Its all subjective, but in my opinion you should not be streamlining, remove their characteristik and make them take roles of other units. I would much rather have them remove the damage from fungal growth and have the duration increased to 16 sec or keeping KA and addressing protoss lategame in other ways.
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On March 13 2011 13:17 jaiiiii wrote:
Can't say much about the other two match-ups, as I play mostly zerg and toss. However, the infestor definitely won't get out in time for 3gate/4gate push, so it shouldn't be too detrimental to the balance there. Personally I think the addition of the +30% damage to stalkers is going to be pretty annoying, but I think it'll be nice for zerg to have other options.
it will encourage more infestors in the mix and you'll see a lot more chain fungals. People are already experimenting on ladder a lot with it. A few fungals with retreat micro can melt a death ball reasonably fast and very cost efficiently.
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Lol, if they're really going to go through with the HT nerf, their gonna have to nerf ghosts somehow. Simple as that, unless Blizzard really do only want Colossus openings.
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On March 12 2011 22:44 Bagi wrote:
Good changes. The infestor missile was bound to be too weak against people with excellent micro.
I don't mind the ghost change either, it makes sense to drain 100 shields and 100 energy. It might not help HT's that much, but sentries often have max energy in engagements.
Would rather it be a missile but be balanced with even stronger fungal. It would create a nice dynamic and make for more interesting games.
Although the infestor really should have 2 spells like the defiler. Dark Swarm slows down army progress, while plague does a ton of damage. Theres contention between both depending on the situation.
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On March 13 2011 13:28 Shooks wrote:
Lol, if they're really going to go through with the HT nerf, their gonna have to nerf ghosts somehow. Simple as that, unless Blizzard really do only want Colossus openings.
Did you miss the EMP nerf or are you trolling?
I really don't get the amount of players saying "The only valid Protoss opening is colossus now". What happened to stargate opening? Chargelots? Blink stalkers? DTs? Mass gateway units?
I feel like anyone saying that colossus are the only viable opening with the templar nerf are people who only go colossus now anyway.
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I can't get on the PTR for some reason. It's worked before in previous patches, but now I keep getting "SC2 Public Test server is not available right now." Ever since the 1.3 patch came up, I couldn't access it. Anyone know how to fix it?
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In most cases fungal was a damage spell already.
Ever took on a Protoss deathball with infestors? That fungal does not stop him from attacking. Actually it just encourages to stay there and attack you. Units can still attack while fungaled. So then the only thing fungal does, is damage.
Compare this to FF, which actually severely messes up your unit positions and puts you in a BAD spot so you just want to escape. Now that's a powerful root. Fungal hardly ever had this use (except vs air).
It's clearly a test-thingy to try something new. Zerg really needs a damage buff of some sort since deathballs are super easy to manage while they give every Zerg player a headache.
It really is time that the ball goes in the Protoss court. Let them break their heads how they should destroy the mighty zergball.. we haven't had one since release.
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On March 13 2011 13:37 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 13:28 Shooks wrote:
Lol, if they're really going to go through with the HT nerf, their gonna have to nerf ghosts somehow. Simple as that, unless Blizzard really do only want Colossus openings. Did you miss the EMP nerf or are you trolling? I really don't get the amount of players saying "The only valid Protoss opening is colossus now". What happened to stargate opening? Chargelots? Blink stalkers? DTs? Mass gateway units? I feel like anyone saying that colossus are the only viable opening with the templar nerf are people who only go colossus now anyway.
Exactly and this nerf will not affect the main reason as to why we arent seeing HT opening in the current state. We might go from seeing 2 base HTs 5% of the time to 0%. The main reason we rarely see HT openings is because:
1: It lags the ability to scout.
2: Its a huge and long investment which can easiliy be exploited by timing pushes by terran.
3: Its hard to build HTs and maintain a good unit composition of 4 geysers.
4: With collusus you can easily punish a terran who gets vikings too late and just kill him, but ghost tech is so easy to get that you dont have such a timing with a HT opener.
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The way people are bitching about high templar, you would think that every protoss in the world would get amulet before storm now because templar are completely useless without it.
Protoss has to learn to get preemptive high templar now, just like terran needs to build ghosts before pushes. It is totally conceivable to have more than 175 energy on your HT by the time you get into battle. My ghosts frequently have 200 by the time i engage because i get 2-3 early in my comp then stop making them.
I dont know if i like the nerf to ghosts, but i can see why, removing all energy from tightly clumped sentry and ht deathballs as well as shields won me so many games its crazy.
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from one point of view i can understand why warp in storms are considered too powerful and cost efficient but on the other hand using mostly t1 terran units vs t3 toss after 20 min mark seems wrong as well, if terrans mixed a bit more mech in their play than there wouldn't be as much QQ towards storm as it is now. Still think amulet should remain but with +15 or 20 instead of being completely removed.
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Oh yeah, another point of view as to why Amulet should be removed:
In SC1, HTs needed to be built, which of course, takes time. In SC2, we can just warp them in 10 or so seconds with 75 energy.
But let's say Amulet is gone. It will take time to gain 25 energy for the storm. But remember, we only have to Warp-In HTs in SC2. So if you add the time it takes to get 25 energy to the Warp-In time, it comes out to be about the same as if you were just building HTs in advance to get them ready for later.
One more thing: After waiting for HTs to get enough energy, which is similar to just having to build them in SC1, you will have enough energy to storm immediately, compared to the HT in SC1 where you needed to upgrade energy but still wait for 75 energy (energy upgrade had them start at 63 right?)
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On March 13 2011 14:03 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Oh yeah, another point of view as to why Amulet should be removed:
In SC1, HTs needed to be built, which of course, takes time. In SC2, we can just warp them in 10 or so seconds with 75 energy.
But let's say Amulet is gone. It will take time to gain 25 energy for the storm. But remember, we only have to Warp-In HTs in SC2. So if you add the time it takes to get 25 energy to the Warp-In time, it comes out to be about the same as if you were just building HTs in advance to get them ready for later.
This logic is just astoundingly silly. You realize that every other gateway unit is warped in too, right? And that gateways have cool-downs? You might as well say "oh man SC2 zealots are soooo much more powerful than SC1 zealots -- you can just warp them right in, you don't have to wait for them to build!"... Really?
How could it possibly be useful to compare the SC2 HT with the SC1 HT when you're actually trying to compare the SC2 HT with the upgraded SC2 HT?
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On March 13 2011 13:50 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Protoss has to learn to get preemptive high templar now, just like terran needs to build ghosts before pushes. It is totally conceivable to have more than 175 energy on your HT by the time you get into battle. My ghosts frequently have 200 by the time i engage because i get 2-3 early in my comp then stop making them.
The difference is, even if you warp in them before, and lets assume they have over 150 energy.
IF emp hits, and i can garantuee you, at the very highest lvl, terrans should be able to emp the protoss army before their ghost gets feedbacked, you may land 2-3 storms.
Thats fair, he dodges / kites back, the fight goes on.
YOU HAVE TO WIN that fight, 100% and clearly.
If you lose, he re-rallies you to death. If you warp-in new hts during the battle, they'll have to wait, are a useless 150 gas investment for the next ~1-2 minutes, while the terran starts to push you with constant zerg-like re-rallying.
Your gateway units wont be able to kill the remaining army. If medivacs are in the game, the smaller the armies get, the more terran benefits.
Hts will be only usefull for exactly ONE attack, if that fails, its basically game over.
Back and forth, constant exchange of battles, won't happen anymore in the later stages.
As of now, we already have this stagnat play when protoss is involved. If they lose one fight,
it's over until the game hits 4 bases.
Amulet hts were a buffer that could prevent that from happening, cause you could punch back with
cost efficient gateway units (stalker/ht/zealots) after a fight.
Won't be happening anymore :|.
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On March 12 2011 23:01 Hollis wrote:
FG back to instant cast is a huge deal, but I still feel the rest of the FG "Buff" is pretty ambiguous.
How often is FG used for the root effect vs how often for damage?
I dunno. I just feel like Zerg still needs something, especially for the early game.
A significant Spine Crawler build time reduction would help a lot, I think. 50 seconds is way too long.
Getting Hydra speed upgrade from BW back would also kick butt. Imagine Hydras speeding along at upgraded Roach speed. Zerg could finally be the scrappy, mobile, counter-attack playstyle it's supposed to be.
Even if Hydra's got speed, they're still glass cannons. Hydra's need a health or armor buff before they could even be considered part of the swarm. They're too expensive and too fragile to be implemented in the way Zerg is designed to be played. I'd be fine with them weakening the Hydra in damage, and strengthening its ability to survive. As is, Hydra's are only used as early air defense, and it's usually out of desperation. Also, with the Infestor buff, Hydras will really serve no purpose what so ever.
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Sometimes it feels like Blizzard is trying very hard to nerf any advantage any unit has over simply A-moving it. Casters are already weak in this game compared to BW. If anything, they need to buff the other casters to be like templars, not nerf templars. Now we'll see more colossus play, a boring A-move unit.
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I think the general theme with all the patches is that everyone complains about nerfs and nobody complains about buffs, even if they play another race. There really has never been a buff which people cried about so far...
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This logic is just astoundingly silly. You realize that every other gateway unit is warped in too, right? And that gateways have cool-downs? You might as well say "oh man SC2 zealots are soooo much more powerful than SC1 zealots -- you can just warp them right in, you don't have to wait for them to build!"... Really?
How could it possibly be useful to compare the SC2 HT with the SC1 HT when you're actually trying to compare the SC2 HT with the upgraded SC2 HT?
Well actually, Protoss is stronger in that idea that, if you constantly warp-in units, then, compared to SC1, you will have more units in SC2 because the units come out at the warp-in time rather than the end of the cooldown time. However, in SC2, High Templars not only come out before the cooldown time, thus allowing you to be much more reactive to things like drops, but also come out ready to storm with the energy upgrade rather than starting at 63 like in SC1.
I guess it's not very helpful to compare a unit across two different games, but I just want to point out to those that hate the idea of an HT starting at 50 energy and not being able to warp-in storm because they could start at 63 energy in SC1 -- that HTs are much more convenient in SC2 than in SC1.
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yay 90 hp infestors again, thanks blizzard love it /end sarcasm
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On March 13 2011 16:15 dignity wrote:
I think the general theme with all the patches is that everyone complains about nerfs and nobody complains about buffs, even if they play another race. There really has never been a buff which people cried about so far...
I highly disagree with this. When phoenix got buffed (both times) there was a huge uproar about it. When the terran infantry upgrades became cheaper many people complained.
The reason that it may seem like not many people complain about the buffs is because they usually don't seem to be as significant of a chance when compared to the nerfs (typically). I guarantee you if the next patch notes said "Force fields will now cost 25 energy" everyone would go insane.
On another note...
As for the EMP change, I don't think this will affect HTs at all, however this may help sentries a bit. I've seen quite a few games (you know... the ones where the terran actually gets ghosts against Protoss because they realize it's a good unit) where a terran EMPs all of the enemies sentries which have been gaining energy all game and are a main part of the protoss force. I am not saying Sentries should or should not be the main part of a P's army, but to all the people who are saying it won't make a difference... I disagree.
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To all the Protoss squealing about "high templar never have more than 100 energy":
The reason they never build up energy is because currently, you never have to worry about getting them ahead of time. You wouldn't ever see ghosts/infestors with energy either if you could warp them in, cast a spell and then morph them into a thor/ultralisk. Now that you actually have to think about getting them ahead of time, you'll naturally have them sitting around with higher energy.
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On March 13 2011 12:49 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +Fungal growth probably needs a buff, but as Idra mentioned the change is kind of bad because it makes it more similar to storm. The characteristik thing about fungal has always been the root effect and how it synergizes with 4 range roaches, slow hydras, melee units and ofc. the baneling. Now they are turning it in to more of a damage spell similar to storm. So while the buff will probably good for balance its pretty damn bad for the game, making the races more similar. The same happens so HTs which are basicly having a buildtime added to them. Both changes are good for balance, but its a step in the wrong direction and balancing the game like that will have us playing nothing but mirrormatches with different skins after the last expansion is out. Even if I were to accept that the change makes FG more like Psi Storm, I don't buy your logical wedge argument. Just because one thing becomes slightly more like some other thing doesn't mean that the game is evolving towards mirror matchups. And I don't see how removing KA makes HTs more like other units. Yes, it gives them a "build time," but that doesn't change the fact that they can still be built anywhere at any time. Nor does it change the fact that they can still be converted into Archons. Or any of the other differences between HTs and other units. All it does is remove Psi Storm on demand. The only other alternative to that is just junking Psi Storm entirely and replacing it with a new spell. Which quite frankly, I'd be in favor of. But Blizzard isn't willing to make major changes like that without an expansion. Also, for some reason, Blizzard considers some things to be unchangable, like Terrans having Siege Tanks or Protoss having Psi Storm.
It doesnt even give them a build time, it makes protoss players cry because they are unable to contemplate building something ahead of time(like in bw for example) its almost as funny as "lol you got a useless 150 gas for 2 minutes" isnt energy 1 per second? so 25 seconds you can storm. build them ahead of time?
its not a hard concept, protoss mostly just complaining they cant just instantly warp in HT to save their asses
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On March 12 2011 22:10 Pulz wrote:
So Terran is even more vulnerable to HTs and Infestors still die with 2 Tank shots? I like the other changes though..
On March 12 2011 22:10 CreepCrepe wrote:
Infestor still nerfed. Cool beans.
Are you guys serious? Infestor has double the DPS and +30% against armored. Ghost EMP change makes little to none difference but the amulett is still gone.
I hope the changes makes a more balanced game, but if not, the changes can always be reversed. But making statements that aren't true makes me sad =(
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On March 12 2011 22:10 Pulz wrote:
So Terran is even more vulnerable to HTs and Infestors still die with 2 Tank shots? I like the other changes though..
dude really.. no amulet? just drop everywhere and protoss will almost not be able to counter it. MMM every game :p if he goes HT you can just emp all of em like always.
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On March 13 2011 18:36 xenaris wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:10 Pulz wrote:
So Terran is even more vulnerable to HTs and Infestors still die with 2 Tank shots? I like the other changes though.. dude really.. no amulet? just drop everywhere and protoss will almost not be able to counter it. MMM every game :p if he goes HT you can just emp all of em like always.
Oh no, Protoss has to defend drops like every other race...
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On March 13 2011 18:40 Durn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 18:36 xenaris wrote:On March 12 2011 22:10 Pulz wrote:
So Terran is even more vulnerable to HTs and Infestors still die with 2 Tank shots? I like the other changes though.. dude really.. no amulet? just drop everywhere and protoss will almost not be able to counter it. MMM every game :p if he goes HT you can just emp all of em like always. Oh no, Protoss has to defend drops like every other race...
Except it's not that simple. In small engagements, Protoss units (zealot stalker sentry) that can be warped-in are weaker than the typical Terran units that are being dropped (marine marauder). In addition to that, the Protoss deathball is pretty immobile and in general has to travel as a cohesive group.
So yes, responding to drops does become considerably harder without warp-in storms.
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dude really.. no amulet? just drop everywhere and protoss will almost not be able to counter it. MMM every game if he goes HT you can just emp all of em like always.
So the deathball will probably be less effective, and toss will have to use stargate/mass gate strats a little more often.
It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out, I would have made EMP 75/75 myself, that's still almost as much as a psystorm in one hit. I think toss are going to need to conserve their templars more. They're so cost effective at the moment you can just throw them away. I'm continually surprised to see top end players let their HT's wander into the middle of a fight and die after one storm a piece, or they merge them into archons immediately, even if they're clearly winning- or losing the battle. If they microed them a touch better and retreated to safety immediately after storming, or used warp prisms to evacuate them after a lost fight, EMP would be less devastating, and protoss would get exponentially more powerful if they held the game to an even fight. Coming back in with 8-10 storms instead of 3-4 and a couple of archons is a huge deal.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On March 13 2011 14:17 andrewlt wrote:
Sometimes it feels like Blizzard is trying very hard to nerf any advantage any unit has over simply A-moving it. Casters are already weak in this game compared to BW. If anything, they need to buff the other casters to be like templars, not nerf templars. Now we'll see more colossus play, a boring A-move unit.
I cannot agree more
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On March 13 2011 18:40 Durn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 18:36 xenaris wrote:On March 12 2011 22:10 Pulz wrote:
So Terran is even more vulnerable to HTs and Infestors still die with 2 Tank shots? I like the other changes though.. dude really.. no amulet? just drop everywhere and protoss will almost not be able to counter it. MMM every game :p if he goes HT you can just emp all of em like always. Oh no, Protoss has to defend drops like every other race...
Except every other race has T1 units they either shoot up or run very quickly.
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+ Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
And this is why I never ever ever ever will play SC2 again. Why nerf storms? Storms are suppose to be Imba... Now they nerf it -_-" SC:BW ftw
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Split your sentries and you will have plenty of mana after emp if the terran emp rushes, very simple yet only few protosses do it...
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On March 13 2011 18:53 By.Fantasy wrote:
+ Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
And this is why I never ever ever ever will play SC2 again. Why nerf storms? Storms are suppose to be Imba... Now they nerf it -_-" SC:BW ftw
No one cares about you ... SC2 is still developing and there will be two expansions with new units so it will take some time to balance SC2
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Why they are nerfing infestors so hard is beyond me.
Oh yeah, and they should really add the BW khaydarin research at least. I think recent GSL games have shown that khaydarin isn't too strong.
Going pure bio vs. khaydarin HTs all game and losing by a hair doesn't sound balanced to me.
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On March 13 2011 18:19 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 12:49 NicolBolas wrote:Fungal growth probably needs a buff, but as Idra mentioned the change is kind of bad because it makes it more similar to storm. The characteristik thing about fungal has always been the root effect and how it synergizes with 4 range roaches, slow hydras, melee units and ofc. the baneling. Now they are turning it in to more of a damage spell similar to storm. So while the buff will probably good for balance its pretty damn bad for the game, making the races more similar. The same happens so HTs which are basicly having a buildtime added to them. Both changes are good for balance, but its a step in the wrong direction and balancing the game like that will have us playing nothing but mirrormatches with different skins after the last expansion is out. Even if I were to accept that the change makes FG more like Psi Storm, I don't buy your logical wedge argument. Just because one thing becomes slightly more like some other thing doesn't mean that the game is evolving towards mirror matchups. And I don't see how removing KA makes HTs more like other units. Yes, it gives them a "build time," but that doesn't change the fact that they can still be built anywhere at any time. Nor does it change the fact that they can still be converted into Archons. Or any of the other differences between HTs and other units. All it does is remove Psi Storm on demand. The only other alternative to that is just junking Psi Storm entirely and replacing it with a new spell. Which quite frankly, I'd be in favor of. But Blizzard isn't willing to make major changes like that without an expansion. Also, for some reason, Blizzard considers some things to be unchangable, like Terrans having Siege Tanks or Protoss having Psi Storm. It doesnt even give them a build time, it makes protoss players cry because they are unable to contemplate building something ahead of time(like in bw for example) its almost as funny as "lol you got a useless 150 gas for 2 minutes" isnt energy 1 per second? so 25 seconds you can storm. build them ahead of time? its not a hard concept, protoss mostly just complaining they cant just instantly warp in HT to save their asses
It takes longer than 25 seconds for a storm but whatever, i'm not gonna argue tht.
Any protoss tht isn't an idiot isn't complaining tht we can't just instantly warp in HT to save our asses. In fact, a good amount of us, me included don't believe u should be able to warp in HT and instantly storm.
However, I believe they way over-nerfing tht HT. The difference between the HT and the Ghost is tht the ghost is an extremely good unit tht with good EMPs can completely change the battle. The ghost is good and a decent investment, however it's not absolutely crucial for success. The HT is one of the two damage dealers we have. With a colossi-less army, say all most of your templars get EMP'd, u get one or two storms off tht do piss-poor damage to marauders tht have constant healing and they completely destroy your gateway army.
Whether it's bad game design or whatever, the fact is tht Protoss is about defending your colossi or getting a TON of good storms off becuz the DPS of gateway is so bad compared to MMM and the AoE damage dealers are ridiculously good. It's just impossible to not go Colossi anymore becuz it's too risky to have to rely completely on HT with the risk tht if they get EMP'd, u lose the game. The marauders can just A-move and click T to your base and win. HT will just be tht thing u get extremely late gate where u have so much money tht u may as well get it, but the mid-late game will be basically only Colossi, even more than it is now.
There needs to be a balance really. U can't just be able to continuously warp-in unlimited storms to save yourself but have to wait over 35 seconds for one storm on a ridiculously slow and weak HT is not reasonable, since it holds so much importance in the battle for Protoss in the battle. And if u get EMP'd, u get to wait another 40 seconds for new storms while all your army is dead and they're killing your base.
Sure, ghosts are a build time but they have an already researched EMP with an energy upgrade. But the main difference is MMM and gateway units. If MMM were as weak as gateway units, then it would be a reasonable argument. But the ghost is just a very good support unit, while HT is the most crucial part of stopping their marauders from absolutely tearing you. For those saying u often have max energy on your ghosts from just waiting around your base, it's completely different for Protoss. If a terran knows a protoss is going HT in the mid game (in patch 1.3), Terran can expand or do wateva it wants becuz they know the Protoss can't attack soon in fear of getting EMP'd. If u wait for over 175+ on all your templars, u're being extremely defensive and tht would be the only way to play HT in the mid--early-late game. Of course, then they would just EMP u twice and it dosen't matter.
+15 Energy upgrade is wat i think it pretty decent. You can't just warp-in and storm instantly, but it makes it somewat usable to go HT and be slightly aggressive, or it allows u to aggressively expand as well. I think the Protoss would be fine with it and Terran's wouldn't have to worry about the admittedly scary defence tht is HT. HT was never really tht bad offensively, it was the fact tht it had so much defensive use tht was the problem.
I'd also like to point out tht altho storm is extremely good against marines, against marauder compositions, they suck unless u have the billions of storms, and even then it can be close (san vs sc is 1 example). Storm is just so easily avoidable for marauders, and do virtually nothing. But the storm tht they stood in for 1 second, u had to wait 40 seconds for it.
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On March 13 2011 19:05 Buddhist wrote:
Why they are nerfing infestors so hard is beyond me.
Are you serious? They buffed FG. :/
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Protoss is a race very focused on tactics and army control. This even extends to their macro mechanics: select the units you want to add to your army and they will immediately appear there; no need to bother with build times, moving reinforcements. With the amulet this is true for spell casters as well. A caster isn't something you need to "nurture", to protect and let build up energy. Rather, it's a disposable unit that is fundamentally nothing more than the one-time use psionic storm. Place the high templar, cast storm, forget about it.
Maybe some more focus on preparation and strategy wouldn't be a bad thing for Blizzard to encourage for protoss? Assumption being removal of amulet encourages such type of play, without hopefully changing the high templar's popularity too much. I personally don't see how this change can not impact it heavily, but I don't think you can tell at this moment, so it'll just be wait and see.
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On March 13 2011 19:07 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 18:19 arb wrote:On March 13 2011 12:49 NicolBolas wrote:Fungal growth probably needs a buff, but as Idra mentioned the change is kind of bad because it makes it more similar to storm. The characteristik thing about fungal has always been the root effect and how it synergizes with 4 range roaches, slow hydras, melee units and ofc. the baneling. Now they are turning it in to more of a damage spell similar to storm. So while the buff will probably good for balance its pretty damn bad for the game, making the races more similar. The same happens so HTs which are basicly having a buildtime added to them. Both changes are good for balance, but its a step in the wrong direction and balancing the game like that will have us playing nothing but mirrormatches with different skins after the last expansion is out. Even if I were to accept that the change makes FG more like Psi Storm, I don't buy your logical wedge argument. Just because one thing becomes slightly more like some other thing doesn't mean that the game is evolving towards mirror matchups. And I don't see how removing KA makes HTs more like other units. Yes, it gives them a "build time," but that doesn't change the fact that they can still be built anywhere at any time. Nor does it change the fact that they can still be converted into Archons. Or any of the other differences between HTs and other units. All it does is remove Psi Storm on demand. The only other alternative to that is just junking Psi Storm entirely and replacing it with a new spell. Which quite frankly, I'd be in favor of. But Blizzard isn't willing to make major changes like that without an expansion. Also, for some reason, Blizzard considers some things to be unchangable, like Terrans having Siege Tanks or Protoss having Psi Storm. It doesnt even give them a build time, it makes protoss players cry because they are unable to contemplate building something ahead of time(like in bw for example) its almost as funny as "lol you got a useless 150 gas for 2 minutes" isnt energy 1 per second? so 25 seconds you can storm. build them ahead of time? its not a hard concept, protoss mostly just complaining they cant just instantly warp in HT to save their asses It takes longer than 25 seconds for a storm but whatever, i'm not gonna argue tht. Any protoss tht isn't an idiot isn't complaining tht we can't just instantly warp in HT to save our asses. In fact, a good amount of us, me included don't believe u should be able to warp in HT and instantly storm. However, I believe they way over-nerfing tht HT. The difference between the HT and the Ghost is tht the ghost is an extremely good unit tht with good EMPs can completely change the battle. The ghost is good and a decent investment, however it's not absolutely crucial for success. The HT is one of the two damage dealers we have. With a colossi-less army, say all most of your templars get EMP'd, u get one or two storms off tht do piss-poor damage to marauders tht have constant healing and they completely destroy your gateway army. Whether it's bad game design or whatever, the fact is tht Protoss is about defending your colossi or getting a TON of good storms off becuz the DPS of gateway is so bad compared to MMM and the AoE damage dealers are ridiculously good. It's just impossible to not go Colossi anymore becuz it's too risky to have to rely completely on HT with the risk tht if they get EMP'd, u lose the game. The marauders can just A-move and click T to your base and win. HT will just be tht thing u get extremely late gate where u have so much money tht u may as well get it, but the mid-late game will be basically only Colossi, even more than it is now. There needs to be a balance really. U can't just be able to continuously warp-in unlimited storms to save yourself but have to wait over 35 seconds for one storm on a ridiculously slow and weak HT is not reasonable, since it holds so much importance in the battle for Protoss in the battle. And if u get EMP'd, u get to wait another 40 seconds for new storms while all your army is dead and they're killing your base. Sure, ghosts are a build time but they have an already researched EMP with an energy upgrade. But the main difference is MMM and gateway units. If MMM were as weak as gateway units, then it would be a reasonable argument. But the ghost is just a very good support unit, while HT is the most crucial part of stopping their marauders from absolutely tearing you. For those saying u often have max energy on your ghosts from just waiting around your base, it's completely different for Protoss. If a terran knows a protoss is going HT in the mid game (in patch 1.3), Terran can expand or do wateva it wants becuz they know the Protoss can't attack soon in fear of getting EMP'd. If u wait for over 175+ on all your templars, u're being extremely defensive and tht would be the only way to play HT in the mid--early-late game. Of course, then they would just EMP u twice and it dosen't matter. +15 Energy upgrade is wat i think it pretty decent. You can't just warp-in and storm instantly, but it makes it somewat usable to go HT and be slightly aggressive, or it allows u to aggressively expand as well. I think the Protoss would be fine with it and Terran's wouldn't have to worry about the admittedly scary defence tht is HT. HT was never really tht bad offensively, it was the fact tht it had so much defensive use tht was the problem. I'd also like to point out tht altho storm is extremely good against marines, against marauder compositions, they suck unless u have the billions of storms, and even then it can be close (san vs sc is 1 example). Storm is just so easily avoidable for marauders, and do virtually nothing. But the storm tht they stood in for 1 second, u had to wait 40 seconds for it.
if youre not crying about being able to warp in storms(which i think is just dumb in the first place, then ill hope this post was to others, +13/15(what was it in bw?) to starting energy would be fine for me.
granted i play zerg but still
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On March 13 2011 18:59 Homeless666 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 18:53 By.Fantasy wrote:
+ Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
And this is why I never ever ever ever will play SC2 again. Why nerf storms? Storms are suppose to be Imba... Now they nerf it -_-" SC:BW ftw No one cares about you ... SC2 is still developing and there will be two expansions with new units so it will take some time to balance SC2
I was just saying whats on my mind when I first typed that.. I don't really know why I typed that at all >.<
IMO they should keep the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade but rather than +25 starting energy how bout +25 to more energy. Just saying.... I've been playing SC2 and its soo hard to kill terran army without storm...
If blizzard throughly removed Khaydarin Amulet I'll just =_=""
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On March 13 2011 18:49 beef42 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 18:40 Durn wrote:On March 13 2011 18:36 xenaris wrote:On March 12 2011 22:10 Pulz wrote:
So Terran is even more vulnerable to HTs and Infestors still die with 2 Tank shots? I like the other changes though.. dude really.. no amulet? just drop everywhere and protoss will almost not be able to counter it. MMM every game :p if he goes HT you can just emp all of em like always. Oh no, Protoss has to defend drops like every other race... Except every other race has T1 units they either shoot up or run very quickly.
Yeah because the stalkers are slow and don't shoot up.
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Toss strongers race allready but still all they get is buffes. Like who the fuck cares about HT nerf? u use em 1 of 100 games in TvP. Its the collases that rip though everything. But i guess the blizzards is to retarded to get what u have to do to get this game balanced. Already its almost impossibal to win a 200/200 army from toss as a terran. Why dont they just buff colasses so they start to one shotting everything. And yes im going to switch race after this patch. Protoss get 3 upgrades now instead of 2. But why not buff the shit out of one race and nerf the other races.
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I hate to see the amulet go like this. I think it would be much more fair just to come half-way and have the templar start are 62 energy or something like that. Starting at 50 energy and being forced to wait a long while to get a single storm is a pretty big investment. I see where Blizzard was trying to go with this I think (slightly nerf the templar tech path to encourage other play), but I think this went much too far.
At least if this goes through, hopefully we'll be seeing some protosses make use of super-late game Colossus/Carrier tech? :D (gogo squirtle)
Also, hating the archon toilet nerf, the most expensive unit in the game just became even worse than it already was. Looks like the only thing it'll be useful for now is the KiWiKaKi-esqe blink stalker/recall attacks and as a slow ball of stealth.
I don't really think the EMP nerf will change much except help early game protoss have a little better survivability against early ghost pushes, which could have already been thwarted by spreading out the sentries.
I like the fungal change, having it as a projectile was a bad idea in my opinion (at least as slow as it was). Hopefully this can be a decent answer to the 1-control-group protoss death ball.
Stim/Bunker nerf: I like the idea of the bunker build time nerf, as bunker rushes and the such are still extremely deadly while costing nearly nothing if you can salvage and get your units out safely. The stim nerf doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me as a protoss. I don't really find stim timing attacks a pain to deal with at the level I play at currently. However I don't completely know the zerg side of things and I also know that I used to despise stim timing pushes that would murder me every time in plat PvT.
Battlecruiser speed buff: I can only hope that one day, some pro will find it in himself to incorporate battlecruisers into a non-gimmicky build so we can start seeing even more diversties in the match-ups.
One change that I really want to see (and relatively soon), is some way of further diversifying PvP as a matchup. Right now, it really does come down to who can 4 gate faster or who has more colossus in most of the PvP's I play. I'd really like blizzard to even just attempt to try to nerf the 4 gate in at least the PvP matchup if not also the PvZ, while also adding something that will encourage protoss to go for stargate or twilight council tech earlier (or at all) in lieu of robotech.
But like I said, I can only hope.
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When i read the patch notes it seems to me that FG has been buffed.
Why are so many people complaining about a nerf?
Ghost nerf is okay if KA is removed i guess.
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o Ghost
+ EMP now drains up to 100 energy instead of all available energy. The effect on Protoss shields remains unchanged.
this doesn't really make sense to me. Why would they change the effect on energy? I understand that it's for sentries (sense HTs will not almost never get over 100 energy since no one will make em) but should they make it so it can cap out on shield damage instead? I would rather have 0 energy since you almost never get over 100 energy expect the first couple sentries you make. lets say 500 shield damage? it would prioritize over the center of the emp and spread as it does damage and stops at 500?
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On March 13 2011 19:33 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
o Ghost
+ EMP now drains up to 100 energy instead of all available energy. The effect on Protoss shields remains unchanged.
this doesn't really make sense to me. Why would they change the effect on energy? I understand that it's for sentries (sense HTs will not almost never get over 100 energy since no one will make em) but should they make it so it can cap out on shield damage instead? I would rather have 0 energy since you almost never get over 100 energy expect the first couple sentries you make. lets say 500 shield damage? it would prioritize over the center of the emp and spread as it does damage and stops at 500?
.... Sigh... Maybe Blizzard have something better that we can't understand and I dearly hope that the two expansion will make the game better but judging from this patches my faith on them begins to disappear.
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On March 13 2011 13:37 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 13:28 Shooks wrote:
Lol, if they're really going to go through with the HT nerf, their gonna have to nerf ghosts somehow. Simple as that, unless Blizzard really do only want Colossus openings. Did you miss the EMP nerf or are you trolling? I really don't get the amount of players saying "The only valid Protoss opening is colossus now". What happened to stargate opening? Chargelots? Blink stalkers? DTs? Mass gateway units? I feel like anyone saying that colossus are the only viable opening with the templar nerf are people who only go colossus now anyway.
They EMP nerf doesn't change anything, and judging by your posts, I'm guessing you're at a very low level. SG openings are either all in or you open either VR (And keep going VR on 2 base and do a timing, or go a few phoenix then transition into HTs/Colossi judging by what you see). All the rest of the things you mentioned is just a buff to the gateway units, which you can't solely rely on in the mid to lategame, that's where you need an AOE unit because MMM > Gateway units.
And no I've been going HTs openings for 4 months. They need to give HTs a mana regen buff at least to make it fair, if their really going to follow up with this patch
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![[image loading]](http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/5580/split.jpg)
Here we go, now you will survive the emp push easily, nomatter if emp takes up 500 mana or 100
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On March 13 2011 19:33 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
o Ghost
+ EMP now drains up to 100 energy instead of all available energy. The effect on Protoss shields remains unchanged.
this doesn't really make sense to me. Why would they change the effect on energy? I understand that it's for sentries (sense HTs will not almost never get over 100 energy since no one will make em) but should they make it so it can cap out on shield damage instead? I would rather have 0 energy since you almost never get over 100 energy expect the first couple sentries you make. lets say 500 shield damage? it would prioritize over the center of the emp and spread as it does damage and stops at 500?
It is already capped out at shield damage. EMP will never do more than 100 damage to shields per unit.
And if you mean that EMP should be capped at the total amount of shield drained - wouldn't that kind of defeat the purpose of an AoE spell in the first place ? Just learn to spread your units so one EMP doesn't hit all of your army.
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On March 13 2011 17:30 pirsq wrote:
To all the Protoss squealing about "high templar never have more than 100 energy":
The reason they never build up energy is because currently, you never have to worry about getting them ahead of time. You wouldn't ever see ghosts/infestors with energy either if you could warp them in, cast a spell and then morph them into a thor/ultralisk. Now that you actually have to think about getting them ahead of time, you'll naturally have them sitting around with higher energy.
You're comparing a Archon to a Ultra/thor? ROFL. EVERY good player warps them in before hand, what else would Protoss be doing with their gas if they open HTs? Why do people keep bringing this up, when every high level Protoss player already does?
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On March 13 2011 19:44 Satiini wrote:Here we go, now you will survive the emp push easily, nomatter if emp takes up 500 mana or 100
If i wasn't too lazy i would of copy pasted your picture with terran units and said
"Here we go, now you will survive the storm push easily"
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On March 13 2011 19:52 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 19:44 Satiini wrote:Here we go, now you will survive the emp push easily, nomatter if emp takes up 500 mana or 100 If i wasn't too lazy i would of copy pasted your picture with terran units and said "Here we go, now you will survive the storm push easily"
LOL, that's what I think is funny as well, splitting HTs is so much harder considering their slow speed makes them clump so much easier, while splitting a Bio ball is the easiest thing ever, yet we BARELY ever see it, even at the highest level of play.
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storm push hmm, must be some new strategy I havent seen yet :D its the defensive warpin storm im more worried about than your infamous storm push :D
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On March 13 2011 19:52 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 19:44 Satiini wrote:Here we go, now you will survive the emp push easily, nomatter if emp takes up 500 mana or 100 If i wasn't too lazy i would of copy pasted your picture with terran units and said "Here we go, now you will survive the storm push easily"
What the fuck is a storm push?
It's more, "omg everytime I move out my shit goes straight to the red"
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On March 13 2011 19:32 Zorgaz wrote:
When i read the patch notes it seems to me that FG has been buffed.
Why are so many people complaining about a nerf?
Ghost nerf is okay if KA is removed i guess.
This has been said before, but i'll say it here again.
The FG changes are a nerf.
The spell is useful in controlling space, and delaying enemy forces. Laying down fungal growth also allows you to get better positioning and surrounds. Very loosely, it could be considered a sort of zerg forcefield.
The changes are such that the duration is halved. This means that is half as effective at delaying and you get half as long to position your roaches, or surround the enemy with zerglings. In return, the dps is doubled, but it does the same amount of damage overall (meaning it still wont kill anything on its own). One could say you're getting half the utility for a couple of extra roach shots in battle (though if you cast outside the battle, the terran will simply heal up before heading in anyway, and they're going to have medivacs up if you're rolling infestors).
Another thing this nerf does is stop infestors killing air units single handedly, as the infested terrans will be unlikely to get more than a shot or two off before the flier is out of range.
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I'm a Protoss player that offraces zerg, and I had played around with the Fungal projectile a bit on the old PTR. I actually didn't mind it being a projectile. It let the infestor 'lead' the shot a little bit (which meant I could cast it from a further distance from the bioball) and the infestors seemed to survive casting it more often than they used to (mind you, the extra HP might have helped on this too). No terrans I faced on the PTR were able to micro their units out - it moved pretty quick.
But my real issue is still the amulet change, and I'm sad now because Blizzard showing they'd revoked some changes, but NOT the amulet change, probably means it's final.
Someone pointed this out earlier in the thread, but it needs to be repeated - *when* can a Protoss now get HTs? The reason that you hardly ever see HTs warped in before amulet is done is not so much that Protoss are lazy and want instant energy HTs - we'd love a few ful energy HTs by the time all our research is done - it's actually that they can't RISK spending the gas on HTs until amulet is done - HTs are useless without storm energy and the Toss NEEDs to spend the gas AND the warpgate cooldowns on units that can defend right away. I'm sure every greedy Toss can remember a game where they decided to get some HTs out as soon as they could, and as a result were down a colossi and a few gateway units, and just flat out lost the game to a push before the HTs could make any difference. You learn that lesson. That's how it's going to be at any time until you've got 5+ bases now.
I honestly can't see myself making HTs ever in PvT now... it'll just be colossus each and every game, and it'll be solely determined by whether Terran builds enough vikings, and whether I can catch them with stalkers. I don't expect that to end favourably for me, since terrans will know that unless Toss is doing a 1base all in, almost their entire suite of tech paths (robo/star) can now be handled with vikings.
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On March 13 2011 19:54 Shooks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 19:52 sekritzzz wrote:On March 13 2011 19:44 Satiini wrote:Here we go, now you will survive the emp push easily, nomatter if emp takes up 500 mana or 100 If i wasn't too lazy i would of copy pasted your picture with terran units and said "Here we go, now you will survive the storm push easily" LOL, that's what I think is funny as well, splitting HTs is so much harder considering their slow speed makes them clump so much easier, while splitting a Bio ball is the easiest thing ever, yet we BARELY ever see it, even at the highest level of play.
Splitting HT's is hard? What? I mean most master level protoss players just have 1 huge ball of HT's, then they complain when they get EMPed - quite silly. And it's not hard to split them i mean come on...
And you never see splitting of a bio ball? Ever watched ANY high level TvP or TvZ? Marineking? MVP? Even the most average masters player splits his marines/marauders again banelings/storms. When is the last time you've watched a game where a Terran player just let his bioball get run over by banelings, or didnt move out of the storms?
It's been said before, but i think protoss "suffer" alot from a-move units like the colossi deathballs and such, which isnt their fault or anything, it's just how their units work - the templar was different though along with the phoenix. I'd like to see more casters and less deathball a-move units.
I dont mean to make this sound like terran players are better than protoss players, which they obviously arent. But i think that protoss players have been spoiled with the HT's insta warp in storm and therefore didnt really split HT's. If you warp in templars ahead of time, and dont have like 7 of them clumped up, you can still get tons of storms off. It just requires a little bit of a change in playstyle that's all.
Also, i bet 98% of people havent even tried to play with the new changes, they just say stuff based on theory. If the HT was nerfed too hard then blizzard will just buff it back again - blizzard actually does a good job at balancing, despite what many people think.
I think the ghost nerf was good, EMP was balanced before, but with the new HT change i think a nerf to EMP is good - although maybe it's not enough.
The stim research time change seems silly. It's really rare to see a game where Terran wins with a 3rax stim push (which i guess is the reason for the change..?). 2 rax is much better against zerg, and 3 rax is easily held off by every protoss build except like 1 gate FE. If they really wanted to make TvP early game less terran favored, then maybe nerfing conc shell would be a better choice. That being said i dont think the change will do anything, i've never actually needed stim faster, so i dont really care.
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On March 13 2011 19:26 Raymund wrote:
Toss strongers race allready but still all they get is buffes. Like who the fuck cares about HT nerf? u use em 1 of 100 games in TvP. Its the collases that rip though everything. But i guess the blizzards is to retarded to get what u have to do to get this game balanced. Already its almost impossibal to win a 200/200 army from toss as a terran. Why dont they just buff colasses so they start to one shotting everything. And yes im going to switch race after this patch. Protoss get 3 upgrades now instead of 2. But why not buff the shit out of one race and nerf the other races.
I hate to break it to you bud but toss has been Nerfed more then any other race, In every single patch since the beginning of the beta in fact. And I would watch where you make such absurd clams about balance I've seen people banned for allot less then that.
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On March 13 2011 21:20 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 19:26 Raymund wrote:
Toss strongers race allready but still all they get is buffes. Like who the fuck cares about HT nerf? u use em 1 of 100 games in TvP. Its the collases that rip though everything. But i guess the blizzards is to retarded to get what u have to do to get this game balanced. Already its almost impossibal to win a 200/200 army from toss as a terran. Why dont they just buff colasses so they start to one shotting everything. And yes im going to switch race after this patch. Protoss get 3 upgrades now instead of 2. But why not buff the shit out of one race and nerf the other races. I hate to break it to you bud but toss has been Nerfed more then any other race, In every single patch since the beginning of the beta in fact. And I would watch where you make such absurd clams about balance I've seen people banned for allot less then that.
let us for a moment imagine pre nerf every patch in beta, protoss today..
what a scary thought
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On March 13 2011 21:29 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 21:20 gosuMalicE wrote:On March 13 2011 19:26 Raymund wrote:
Toss strongers race allready but still all they get is buffes. Like who the fuck cares about HT nerf? u use em 1 of 100 games in TvP. Its the collases that rip though everything. But i guess the blizzards is to retarded to get what u have to do to get this game balanced. Already its almost impossibal to win a 200/200 army from toss as a terran. Why dont they just buff colasses so they start to one shotting everything. And yes im going to switch race after this patch. Protoss get 3 upgrades now instead of 2. But why not buff the shit out of one race and nerf the other races. I hate to break it to you bud but toss has been Nerfed more then any other race, In every single patch since the beginning of the beta in fact. And I would watch where you make such absurd clams about balance I've seen people banned for allot less then that. let us for a moment imagine pre nerf every patch in beta, protoss today.. what a scary thought
Yeah Protoss was obviously OP back then lol I'm just correcting this guy saying that all protoss is getting is buffs.
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On March 13 2011 19:23 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 18:49 beef42 wrote:On March 13 2011 18:40 Durn wrote:On March 13 2011 18:36 xenaris wrote:On March 12 2011 22:10 Pulz wrote:
So Terran is even more vulnerable to HTs and Infestors still die with 2 Tank shots? I like the other changes though.. dude really.. no amulet? just drop everywhere and protoss will almost not be able to counter it. MMM every game :p if he goes HT you can just emp all of em like always. Oh no, Protoss has to defend drops like every other race... Except every other race has T1 units they either shoot up or run very quickly. Yeah because the stalkers are slow and don't shoot up.
Yes because everyone knows how well stalkers do vs a dropship of marauders
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On March 13 2011 21:01 Deadlyfish wrote:
Splitting HT's is hard? What? I mean most master level protoss players just have 1 huge ball of HT's, then they complain when they get EMPed - quite silly. And it's not hard to split them i mean come on...
Admittedly, it isn't hard to have your HTs spread out before they Storm, but you can't deny that it is a lot harder to micro HTs away from AoE than the bioball, simply because they are a lot slower, even without Stim.
It's been said before, but i think protoss "suffer" alot from a-move units like the colossi deathballs and such, which isnt their fault or anything, it's just how their units work - the templar was different though along with the phoenix. I'd like to see more casters and less deathball a-move units.
I agree that I'd love to see less a-move armies, but I think singling out Protoss alone for this is pure bias. Terran's main two army compositions (bio and mech) rely very little on micro in early-mid game, and mech doesn't even lategame, with the exception of Hellions. Bio only needs to have micro when harassing (Protoss can harass as well) and when there is AoE out (again, Protoss fears EMPS, Fungals etc). In addition, the Protoss deathball relies heavily on perfect army composition, whereas bio is just MMM - as many of each as you can get. Although that doesn't come directly under micro, it is exploitable USING micro and requires focus from Protoss, not micro-ing units but making the right quantities of each.
I dont mean to make this sound like terran players are better than protoss players, which they obviously arent. But i think that protoss players have been spoiled with the HT's insta warp in storm and therefore didnt really split HT's. If you warp in templars ahead of time, and dont have like 7 of them clumped up, you can still get tons of storms off. It just requires a little bit of a change in playstyle that's all.
Like a lot of play for Protoss, and indeed almost all the races, micro is too often an optional add-on that will make your play better, whereas in BW it was very necessary for almost everything. Again, I wouldn't single Protoss out for this.
Also, i bet 98% of people havent even tried to play with the new changes, they just say stuff based on theory. If the HT was nerfed too hard then blizzard will just buff it back again - blizzard actually does a good job at balancing, despite what many people think.
I actually agree, but that isn't an argument for the HT being balanced, in and of itself.
The stim research time change seems silly. It's really rare to see a game where Terran wins with a 3rax stim push (which i guess is the reason for the change..?). 2 rax is much better against zerg, and 3 rax is easily held off by every protoss build except like 1 gate FE. If they really wanted to make TvP early game less terran favored, then maybe nerfing conc shell would be a better choice. That being said i dont think the change will do anything, i've never actually needed stim faster, so i dont really care.
I don't ever really lose to an early stim push either, and I doubt high level players have problems with it either. I agree that perhaps Conc Shell nerf would be more practical, or even just a Marine DPS nerf in general.
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Here are some reasons why the Patch 1.3 PTR is completley garbage
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- It will be the third patch which ignores the Reaper again since Patch 1.1.2. The unit is practically dead cuz of 4 mayor changes such as the Supply Depot Requirement for the Barracks, the Factory Requirement for the Nitro packs Upgrade, the Roach range buff from 3 to 4 and the additionally 5 secs. to build from the Patch 1.1.0 and Blizzard doesn't even care to slightley buff the unit.
- We get another useless build time change for the Bunker. We had a 40 sec. build time at the start of the Beta, 30 sec. during Beta Patch 6 to the end, 35 sec. with the first mayor balance change in Patch 1.1.0 since release and now we will get 40 secs. again which probably won't change anything. Instead of looking on the "Salvage Ability" for bunkers which might be the problem cuz you always get your money back even when your bunker rush fails, Blizzard decides to leave that out and simply increase the build time again.
- Increasing Movement speed from 1.406 to 1.875 for Battlecruisers might be a good change but it's interesting to see that the Battlecruiser get so much attention compared to the Carrier. We had a slight dmg nerf on the Ground weapons during the Patch 1.1.0 and build time decreases for the BC and the Fusion Core during the Beta, fine. Do you actually remember when we had our last Carrier balance change ? Not ? Well the reason is easy. There was none since the start of the Beta. The Carrier is not underpowered but heavily underused and each patch without an effort to change that is a pain in the ass.
- The 3 different Protoss Tech trees will be kinda none existent in the higher level of play if the Khaydarin Amulet and Vortex change really appear in Patch 1.3. As a Protoss player myself I completley agree that Warp-In Storms are to strong but simply removing the upgrade for HT's is so damn silly and Blizzard doesn't even try to redesign those Energy Upgrades but that leads to a another fundamental problem. The whole Templar Tech turns into shit. HT's and DT's were already underused and this change makes it even worse. The Vortex Archon combination is dead. The Mothership has probably lost his best weapon and this unit was also heavily underused. It seems like every P involved Matchup will turn into a War of the Worls with pure Colossi domination and btw. the only thing which had the right to be removed was the Dark Shrine and nothing else.
- Redesigning Fungal Growth instead of Neural Parasite. If you ask a High Level Zerg player about these two abilitys you will always get the same answer. We saw Fungal Growth in the GSL, the ability has potential, it's not like the Spell is totally useless but where the fuck do I see NP in the GSL or high level games? The Spell is probably the worst in the game right now and Blizzard......yeah they buff Fungal Growth -_-
- Ignoring Hydras again and thats really dumb cuz every other change will help out Non-Hydra play. Infestors will take over the DPS role and PvZ turns into Colossi madness anyway so why should we play Hydras anymore ?
- EMP change will have no impact. It rather seems like a joke that EMP finally gets a nerf, after the HT's get nerfed into Oblivion.
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To summarize.....the patch is complete bullshit!
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On March 13 2011 21:01 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 19:54 Shooks wrote:On March 13 2011 19:52 sekritzzz wrote:On March 13 2011 19:44 Satiini wrote:Here we go, now you will survive the emp push easily, nomatter if emp takes up 500 mana or 100 If i wasn't too lazy i would of copy pasted your picture with terran units and said "Here we go, now you will survive the storm push easily" LOL, that's what I think is funny as well, splitting HTs is so much harder considering their slow speed makes them clump so much easier, while splitting a Bio ball is the easiest thing ever, yet we BARELY ever see it, even at the highest level of play. Splitting HT's is hard? What? I mean most master level protoss players just have 1 huge ball of HT's, then they complain when they get EMPed - quite silly. And it's not hard to split them i mean come on... And you never see splitting of a bio ball? Ever watched ANY high level TvP or TvZ? Marineking? MVP? Even the most average masters player splits his marines/marauders again banelings/storms. When is the last time you've watched a game where a Terran player just let his bioball get run over by banelings, or didnt move out of the storms? It's been said before, but i think protoss "suffer" alot from a-move units like the colossi deathballs and such, which isnt their fault or anything, it's just how their units work - the templar was different though along with the phoenix. I'd like to see more casters and less deathball a-move units. I dont mean to make this sound like terran players are better than protoss players, which they obviously arent. But i think that protoss players have been spoiled with the HT's insta warp in storm and therefore didnt really split HT's. If you warp in templars ahead of time, and dont have like 7 of them clumped up, you can still get tons of storms off. It just requires a little bit of a change in playstyle that's all. Also, i bet 98% of people havent even tried to play with the new changes, they just say stuff based on theory. If the HT was nerfed too hard then blizzard will just buff it back again - blizzard actually does a good job at balancing, despite what many people think. I think the ghost nerf was good, EMP was balanced before, but with the new HT change i think a nerf to EMP is good - although maybe it's not enough. The stim research time change seems silly. It's really rare to see a game where Terran wins with a 3rax stim push (which i guess is the reason for the change..?). 2 rax is much better against zerg, and 3 rax is easily held off by every protoss build except like 1 gate FE. If they really wanted to make TvP early game less terran favored, then maybe nerfing conc shell would be a better choice. That being said i dont think the change will do anything, i've never actually needed stim faster, so i dont really care.
Splitting your HTs while moving is ridiculously hard, while extremely easy to pre spread them before a fight, but most Terran's don't just stand there in a fight do they? They run and kite which makes the HTs group up almost instantly
Yes, I see all high level Terrans split against Banelings, but barely against Protoss, even SCfou vs San the other day, SC constantly got hit by storms in a big group, then the 1 battle he didn't, completely destroyed San.
Like I said so many times before, EMP is going to need a big nerf if they're going to go through with this patch, opening Colossi then tech switching into HTs will be fine, but going HTs into Colossi will be virtually impossible, once Terran get 8+ ghosts, the Protoss army usually just dies whether they split or not, and have to rely on the warp ins to just survive, if Terran players just learned not to stack EMPs and actually save them for the warp ins, there wouldn't be so much whinging
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On March 13 2011 22:03 Mentymion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Here are some reasons why the Patch 1.3 PTR is completley garbage
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- It will be the third patch which ignores the Reaper again since Patch 1.1.2. The unit is practically dead cuz of 4 mayor changes such as the Supply Depot Requirement for the Barracks, the Factory Requirement for the Nitro packs Upgrade, the Roach range buff from 3 to 4 and the additionally 5 secs. to build from the Patch 1.1.0 and Blizzard doesn't even care to slightley buff the unit.
- We get another useless build time change for the Bunker. We had a 40 sec. build time at the start of the Beta, 30 sec. during Beta Patch 6 to the end, 35 sec. with the first mayor balance change in Patch 1.1.0 since release and now we will get 40 secs. again which probably won't change anything. Instead of looking on the "Salvage Ability" for bunkers which might be the problem cuz you always get your money back even when your bunker rush fails, Blizzard decides to leave that out and simply increase the build time again.
- Increasing Movement speed from 1.406 to 1.875 for Battlecruisers might be a good change but it's interesting to see that the Battlecruiser get so much attention compared to the Carrier. We had a slight dmg nerf on the Ground weapons during the Patch 1.1.0 and build time decreases for the BC and the Fusion Core during the Beta, fine. Do you actually remember when we had our last Carrier balance change ? Not ? Well the reason is easy. There was none since the start of the Beta. The Carrier is not underpowered but heavily underused and each patch without an effort to change that is a pain in the ass.
- The 3 different Protoss Tech trees will be kinda none existent in the higher level of play if the Khaydarin Amulet and Vortex change really appear in Patch 1.3. As a Protoss player myself I completley agree that Warp-In Storms are to strong but simply removing the upgrade for HT's is so damn silly and Blizzard doesn't even try to redesign those Energy Upgrades but that leads to a another fundamental problem. The whole Templar Tech turns into shit. HT's and DT's were already underused and this change makes it even worse. The Vortex Archon combination is dead. The Mothership has probably lost his best weapon and this unit was also heavily underused. It seems like every P involved Matchup will turn into a War of the Worls with pure Colossi domination and btw. the only thing which had the right to be removed was the Dark Shrine and nothing else.
- Redesigning Fungal Growth instead of Neural Parasite. If you ask a High Level Zerg player about these two abilitys you will always get the same answer. We saw Fungal Growth in the GSL, the ability has potential, it's not like the Spell is totally useless but where the fuck do I see NP in the GSL or high level games? The Spell is probably the worst in the game right now and Blizzard......yeah they buff Fungal Growth -_-
- Ignoring Hydras again and thats really dumb cuz every other change will help out Non-Hydra play. Infestors will take over the DPS role and PvZ turns into Colossi madness anyway so why should we play Hydras anymore ?
- EMP change will have no impact. It rather seems like a joke that EMP finally gets a nerf, after the HT's get nerfed into Oblivion.
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To summarize.....the patch is complete bullshit!
Amen
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On March 13 2011 22:02 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +It's been said before, but i think protoss "suffer" alot from a-move units like the colossi deathballs and such, which isnt their fault or anything, it's just how their units work - the templar was different though along with the phoenix. I'd like to see more casters and less deathball a-move units. I agree that I'd love to see less a-move armies, but I think singling out Protoss alone for this is pure bias. Terran's main two army compositions (bio and mech) rely very little on micro in early-mid game, and mech doesn't even lategame, with the exception of Hellions. Bio only needs to have micro when harassing (Protoss can harass as well) and when there is AoE out (again, Protoss fears EMPS, Fungals etc). In addition, the Protoss deathball relies heavily on perfect army composition, whereas bio is just MMM - as many of each as you can get. Although that doesn't come directly under micro, it is exploitable USING micro and requires focus from Protoss, not micro-ing units but making the right quantities of each.
I dont mean to single out protoss either, i agree that in TvP terrans dont need alot of micro to do well, but i still feel protoss just sort of builds up a huge army and then attacks, whereas terrans drop alot and do other cute things. I hope that blizzard will change protoss to allow them to drop/harass more easily - like terran. (what i'm saying is that terran has an easy time doing this and protoss doesnt).
Take PvZ for example. It feels like a boring matchup when all protoss does is get like 150-200/200 army and then just attacks zerg, it doesnt feel very dynamic (if that's the right word ). I know that is a simplified version of how PvZ plays out, i'm just generalizing. In TvZ sure terran will move out with the usual tank/marine off of 2 base, but there is alot more going on. Drops, muta harass, back and forth marine/baneling action. I dont know if that''s just me being biased (i'm Terran, surprise!) but that's how it feels.
Now this has nothing to do with balance, but i'm just sad to see yet another caster nerfed that provided toss with some needed variety, even if it was needed (which i believe it was). I hope that in future expansions we'll see more complex units that allow for cute play and not just units like the colossi which to me are boring
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On March 13 2011 00:58 TeWy wrote:
Why are they obsessed about details when there basically are units in SC2 that you almost never see at the Master/semi-pro/pro level ?
It would be so better if they made the hydraliskoffcreep/archons/mothership/ultralisks/warp-prism/reapers/carriers/raven decent instead of nerfing every good units.
What will happen if even before the 2 expansions each race has 2-3 SC1 scout-like unit ???
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I disagree. I think you are MORE likely to see those units you listed at the Master/semi-pro/pro level than you are in the lower levels, except for maybe bronze. In bronze they build that stuff just because they can, and can't use them, but as you get up into gold and plat and diamond you are supposed to *know* that all of those are "bad" so you never use them; but then you start to see higher ranked players making pretty good use of them later on. (Although I'll agree with you on carriers, I can't remember the last time I saw a carrier).
They are obsessed with details because the devil is in the details for RTS games, especially if esports are in mind.
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Does the move speed change for BC's affect viking vs BC in TvT? Seems like it doesn't, but trying to figure out what blizz is trying to accomplish with that change.
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On March 13 2011 22:03 Mentymion wrote:
Here are some reasons why the Patch 1.3 PTR is completley garbage
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- It will be the third patch which ignores the Reaper again since Patch 1.1.2. The unit is practically dead cuz of 4 mayor changes such as the Supply Depot Requirement for the Barracks, the Factory Requirement for the Nitro packs Upgrade, the Roach range buff from 3 to 4 and the additionally 5 secs. to build from the Patch 1.1.0 and Blizzard doesn't even care to slightley buff the unit.
Or maybe people just haven't tried using them? Drewbie has been using them against Protoss and it seems like he has been having some success
- We get another useless build time change for the Bunker. We had a 40 sec. build time at the start of the Beta, 30 sec. during Beta Patch 6 to the end, 35 sec. with the first mayor balance change in Patch 1.1.0 since release and now we will get 40 secs. again which probably won't change anything. Instead of looking on the "Salvage Ability" for bunkers which might be the problem cuz you always get your money back even when your bunker rush fails, Blizzard decides to leave that out and simply increase the build time again.
Salvage or not, if the bunkers go down then it is pretty much game over for Zerg, this helps much more than a salvage nerf as it actually gives Zerg a better chance from being auto Gg'd by two bunkers going down on your ramp
- Increasing Movement speed from 1.406 to 1.875 for Battlecruisers might be a good change but it's interesting to see that the Battlecruiser get so much attention compared to the Carrier. We had a slight dmg nerf on the Ground weapons during the Patch 1.1.0 and build time decreases for the BC and the Fusion Core during the Beta, fine. Do you actually remember when we had our last Carrier balance change ? Not ? Well the reason is easy. There was none since the start of the Beta. The Carrier is not underpowered but heavily underused and each patch without an effort to change that is a pain in the ass.
They are heavily underused because a) Voidrays are so amazing in PvZ, usually you get them to supplement Carriers so Corruptors don't rape you, but when you have enough Voidrays to battle corruptors, most people just keep getting more of them instead of getting Carriers. This might change come next patch since Infestors will be able to kill Voidrays quite quickly, so you might need the Carriers range to try snipe any Infestors that over extend themselves.
and b) Not many Terran go Mech, bio is a lot easier than mech but virtually every game someone has gone mech I've had to go Carriers to finish the game
- Redesigning Fungal Growth instead of Neural Parasite. If you ask a High Level Zerg player about these two abilitys you will always get the same answer. We saw Fungal Growth in the GSL, the ability has potential, it's not like the Spell is totally useless but where the fuck do I see NP in the GSL or high level games? The Spell is probably the worst in the game right now and Blizzard......yeah they buff Fungal Growth -_-
Neural Parasite, although a bit underused, has it's place. It does exceptionally well at countering Battle Cruisers and Thors. It doesn't have a lot of uses against Protoss but there is not much you can do to change that without either changing Protoss or making the spell broken vs Terran
- Ignoring Hydras again and thats really dumb cuz every other change will help out Non-Hydra play. Infestors will take over the DPS role and PvZ turns into Colossi madness anyway so why should we play Hydras anymore ?
I have this crazy idea, what if you used both Infestors AND Hydras?
- EMP change will have no impact. It rather seems like a joke that EMP finally gets a nerf, after the HT's get nerfed into Oblivion.
Agree with the HT nerf but I think the EMP change is supposed to address early ghost pushes, when they usually hit most of your sentries are at full energy so if you spread and still get hit, it isn't devastating
I think you are being overly pessimistic about this patch
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I'm speaking as a protoss, and I'm fairly confident protoss players will overcome the loss of amulet.
Here is what I'm thinking this will evolve into. Instead of warping in templars on need, we will just have to pre-emptively warp in some templar reserves. For example, we may have to have 1-3 templars idling around in base, or near a cluster of bases, to defend versus drops. More than 1 and not standing in the same place so that it's not possible for enemy to take it or them out before you notice the drop/harrass. 1 templar is only 2 supply so having a few in reserve won't hurt any protoss.
If you want, you might have a warp prism nearby to transport the templars to front lines when enemy arrives and EMPs your first templars. Or, maybe you have some templars standing bit behind your army so that when you have to fall back, or when you need to bring more templars to the battle, instead of warping in they are already there. Then instead of warping in templars you warp in some other units to support your army, as your units die and you unmax.
I don't know if any of my ideas are actually valid. My point is, I as a protoss do not feel that my world is falling apart, we will adapt. But then again, I'm only diamond and I may be blind to the fine things people above me are seeing. And I say that in a very respectful tone.
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On March 13 2011 06:06 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 01:21 TeWy wrote:On March 13 2011 01:06 Grumbels wrote:On March 13 2011 00:58 TeWy wrote:
Why are they obsessed about details when there basically are units in SC2 that you almost never see at the Master/semi-pro/pro level ?
It would be so better if they made the hydraliskoffcreep/archons/mothership/ultralisks/warp-prism/reapers/carriers/raven decent instead of nerfing every good units.
What will happen if even before the 2 expansions each race has 2-3 SC1 scout-like unit ???
All these things are interconnected btw... Maybe if Warp-prism was really good, I mean having more than 140 HP an not being absolutely outrun by muta and stimmed-marines, Protoss could rely on multi-task instead of this gigantic stupid deathball of HT/Colossi, thus we wouldn't have to whine about an eventual Khaldarin amulet nerf...
Why is Blizzard obsessed with details? Because they tweaked a unit a little bit? They do that every patch, and it's the reason the balance is actually decent right now. What do you think will happen if they overhaul the game every single patch? Balance is not high because of Blizzard stupid tweaks, let me assure you of that. For playing the game since Beta, I know several nerfs/buffs that have been absolutely catastrophic and that weren't reverted for some reasons (HSM nerf for instance now you NEVER see it, pretty much same thing for reaper and now it will be the same for Mothership), some changes have been made and then have been reverted few months later, Zealot buildtime comes to mind but there are way more... People are getting better and are somehow balancing the game on their own because of the map-making and their sense of timing, that's it... What changes have been detrimental since Beta ? Warp-gate nerf, barrack nerf, stalker buff, roaches nerf, ultralisk buff, nexus HP buff, phoenix buff, on these ones everyone aggree... asides from that ? Probably tank nerf ... asides from that ? That's it. 7-8 good crucial changes out of more than 1 hundred in 1 year, what about the bad changes or the missing changes ? I'm pretty sure the number exceeds 7-8 by quite a lot. Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming I could necessarily do a better job, just that Blizzard balancing process has been very doubtful since Warcraft 3 and WoW. I'm not sure what you are arguing. I think you just disagree with Blizzard's changes and pretend that it is a philosophical issue about balancing styles or something. You can call them stupid tweaks, but how else are you going to balance a game if not constantly tweaking and adjusting things? Take the EMP change you were angry about. It makes EMP slightly weaker in some cases, requiring perhaps a few more ghosts per game, or forcing you to face a few more psi-storms or forcefields. That is the balancing part. The design part is the idea that getting one hit off with EMP shouldn't completely cripple all of your preperation, which I think is a good change for future balancing. Now, what is so bad about this change? It doesn't break the game and possibly improves its design.
First off, if anything, SC2 spells should be buffed since A-move strategies are far too strong in this game.
Nerfing both EMP and HT is a terrible decision in terms of gameplay, but also in terms of balance since it will indirectly buff the Zerg late-game which is already quite insane due to their macro mechanics.
Blizzard is once again showing its short-sightedness and proofing to the community that they only pretend to care about semi-pro/pro to make us feel better.
If their balance propositions weren't based on the results and intuitions of their low league internal balance team but rather on pro feedbacks, they wouldn't have had to read these kind of threads to figure out that the removal of khaldarim amulet might fucked-up TvP late-game balance (thus proposing an EMP nerf).
Another example, zealot, warpgate buildtimes were slightly changed throughout beta and early retail. Those timings for early units are important to get right as way to build future balance changes around, so it took some time to stabilize it, and now people are happy about it. Again, what is so bad about tweaking the game this way?
I listed the warp-gate as one of the few good change since the release of the Beta.
But if we want to get deep into it, I feel that this upgrade is a typical example of Blizzard inability to deal with complex balance issues.
The warp-gate technology is a vital upgrade in all 3 MU for Protoss. It costs pretty much nothing and it is available in a building that every single Protoss gets.
Thus the upgrade is redundant and stupid, since in every single game, Protoss chronoboosts it as soon as possible. There were plently of more elegant ways to balance this spell rather than to multiply by 3 its research time.
Now about Zealot warpgate timing in particular, when was the last time you saw a 2 gates zealot push against Zerg or Protoss ? Right, never again after that patch. As always, Blizzard over-nerfed a strategy which wasn't even that good in the first place.
And actually, the changes you mentioned as very detrimental aren't tweaks. The seeker missle change was pretty big.
Indeed, it was a pretty big blunder, nerfing into oblivion the most awesome spell of the game...
But it was done for good reasons, if I remember correctly, Blizzard was concerned that mass ravens strategies might be a little too powerful in 2v2.
You also claim blizzard shouldn't touch the game and just let the community and maps create balance. What did you think would happen if blizzard hadn't patched the reaper? That somehow the zergs would just get better defending it and then everything would be fine? Or we'd need to create maps without ramps to balance around the reaper's power?
Or a less extreme example: roaches with 3 range made it pretty hard to fight protoss as zerg, should that never have been changed?
Since medivacs are totally out-run by muta, one of the role that the new reaper could fulfilled is the one of a very fast and mobile unit.
If the reaper speed upgrade would be buffed to match zergling /w speed, the unit would definitely have its place in the game.
My problem is that Blizzard nerfed the unit 6 months ago, since then we haven't seen him at all (or maybe 1 at the beginning of some game) but for some reason Blizzard seems to be more concerned about viking flowers.
It's a bizarre claim in general. Blizzard constantly changed things throughout alpha, beta, even when initially thinking up the units. When should this stop, is there a set date or something where by retail you shouldn't patch the game anymore? You can not believe in imbalance as a personal preference, but blizzard isn't the community, they're the designers and should be very mindful of proper balance. You can get change-whiplash, where the game never becomes stable before something is changed yet again, but that just means you should be careful balancing, not that you should stop at all.
Furthermore, Brood War might have ended up balanced, but wasn't for large periods of time. I don't think it's right to have the game be imbalanced for like a year, and just hoping the community figures something out, because there are actual people playing this professionally, with leagues, sponsors, organizers all dependent on fun and exciting games. You can't just be stubborn with so much on the line, and in any case, the lost opportunity of the magic community insight to fix the match-up isn't really that big of a loss imo.
As a general rule I'm opposed to the new policy of Blizzard regarding patching. To me patchs have to be decisive and very rare. Right now they're not "careful" but indecisive and frequent.
I don't think there's any point in tweakening over and over certain units and upgrades when the race whom it belongs has at the very least 2-3 absolutely unused units/upgrades.
Maybe if these 2-3 units were changed to fulfill the race overall weaknesses, we would have a more stable and fun game to play.
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Blah I'm so dissapointed by this...
I'm fine with the amulet change as instant storm HT migh be a little too much but there should be a buff somewhere else to keep them viable... HT are just not really worth investing in if there is amulet..
HT are already useless in PvP and hardly used in PvZ and in PvT they are a flavor choice, some prefer HT some prefer colossi (into eventual HT).
I still guess HT will be used in lategame 3+ base games but rushing HT while skipping colossi is pretty much dead now. They are simply not good enough for that anymore.
Counternerf to ghosts is essentially a irrelevant nerf.. The unit only sees real play in PvT and HT rarely if ever have more then 150 energy.. If they really want to nerf the energy drain they should make it about 75-85 energy drained... Against infestors the nerf is mostly irrelevant as infestors will see less play in PvT probably with the change and snipe is better for killing infestors anyway.
About the infestor, I think the changes are alright. As a damage unit it will be quite fine now against stalker/colossus balls and basically better then hydra in that respect. Roach infestor corruptor will be a sweet unit combo in ZvP which will also enable hive tech much easier allowing for some more broodlord/ultra usage. In ZvZ the infestor also stays fine, it got better against roaches but weaker against muta so muta will be alot more viable in that matchup without becoming the de facto best strat.
Infestors in ZvT are nerfed imo. Their DPS is higher but shorter duration makes them much worse for stopping drops and keeping marines in place, muta's will be a neccesity even more to stop drops and I'm not sure infestors will be worth it then.
I think infestors still need a small buff to survive tank shots a bit longer, the buff that makes most sense is to simply change their armor type to light or biological. That way they survive 2 tank shots and a few more stalker shots but they stay unchanged against marines and in ZvZ..
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On March 13 2011 19:32 Zorgaz wrote:
When i read the patch notes it seems to me that FG has been buffed.
Why are so many people complaining about a nerf?
We don't fungal to deal damage, we fungal to lock units down and delay pushs, it now takes two fungals to do the job one used to be able to do. Opening infestors is already quite risky and hard to pull off, it's now going to be completely unviable which means more mutaling, which means -yawn-.
The nerf to HT means even more collossus and the nerf to infestors means more mutas, how exciting, ignoring all balance considerations what it's done is make the game even more rigid and removes options which imo lowers the fun.
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If i wasn't too lazy i would of copy pasted your picture with terran units and said
"Here we go, now you will survive the storm push easily"
But an EMP push comes early and is dangerous while there really is no such thing as a [early] Storm push; it will be too late and not strong enough.
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Splitting forces is hard for people who never forced themselves to before.
This patch, at long last, will throw back in the paper league every 1a-ing bioball terran and 1a-5 colossus protoss around.
I'm so happy about the FG change and seeing 99% of these noobs (y, noobs!) go down the drain I'd almost celebrate !
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I just wanted to address one thing... I'm not saying anything about the balance changes but...
Toss really need to stop bringing up this argument of: "spreading HT is not an answer to EMP" YES IT IS!!!!
do you see Terran players complaining about its hard to split marines from banelings? I guarantee you its A LOT harder to do with a MUCH MUCH costly consequences if not done correctly. Boo hoo your HT's can't cast storm, they can still make archons and soak up SOME damage.
Marines are just flat out gone and tanks get raped.
enough said. Please dont use the argument of "hard to spread HT" ever again please
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On March 14 2011 12:32 titan55 wrote:
I just wanted to address one thing... I'm not saying anything about the balance changes but...
Toss really need to stop bringing up this argument of: "spreading HT is not an answer to EMP" YES IT IS!!!!
do you see Terran players complaining about its hard to split marines from banelings? I guarantee you its A LOT harder to do with a MUCH MUCH costly consequences if not done correctly. Boo hoo your HT's can't cast storm, they can still make archons and soak up SOME damage.
Marines are just flat out gone and tanks get raped.
enough said. Please dont use the argument of "hard to spread HT" ever again please
yeah, running away and splitting with a unit that has a movespeed of around 4 against a unit that
runs towards you.
now compare that to a unit with a movespeed of like 1.75, that you need to move towards the enemy, because terran bio kites away from you.
And your opposing unit shoots an instant missile, with a casting range bigger than yours, that drains every energy from you and its basically over from that instant.
Makes sense to compare these 2 splits.....................................
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On March 13 2011 23:57 TheButtonmen wrote:
We don't fungal to deal damage,
Maybe now you're going to fungal to deal damage.
Killing half the push is a good way of delaying it, I'd say.
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On March 14 2011 12:32 titan55 wrote:
I just wanted to address one thing... I'm not saying anything about the balance changes but...
Toss really need to stop bringing up this argument of: "spreading HT is not an answer to EMP" YES IT IS!!!!
do you see Terran players complaining about its hard to split marines from banelings? I guarantee you its A LOT harder to do with a MUCH MUCH costly consequences if not done correctly. Boo hoo your HT's can't cast storm, they can still make archons and soak up SOME damage.
Marines are just flat out gone and tanks get raped.
enough said. Please dont use the argument of "hard to spread HT" ever again please
Can marines split from banelings if they don't have stim? Or that they have to wait a certain duration before using stim? Of course you can't directly compare these two abilities (amulet and stim), but the principle is the same.
I think you need to understand all of the races before you whine about another person whining about their race. A circle of whining is not what we need.
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I've already foreseen blizz in incapable of making balance changes - now and in the future - you can keep my master league account, blizz. Gg for me.
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Storm should ignore shield damage or something, or do more damage vs armored to deal with colossus/voidray in PvP. No templar tech = dull matchup. Stargate or Robo. TT
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I actually had an idea that would effect PvP alone: Feedback should do deplete shield.
Like a single shot (unnerfed) EMP. I dont know how broken that would be balance wise though. If they go VR/Collosus tech it could be a nice alternate tech path. If nothing else it would open up the option of going Blink Stalkers => Templar Tech in PvP, with your casters having the role of sniping the shield of other high tech units, rather than being the paper weight they currently are.
In all honesty, the only matchup it would break is PvP, which really, can't get too much worse off in most peoples opinion it seems.
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On March 14 2011 14:14 F00LY wrote:
I actually had an idea that would effect PvP alone: Feedback should do deplete shield.
Like a single shot (unnerfed) EMP. I dont know how broken that would be balance wise though. If they go VR/Collosus tech it could be a nice alternate tech path. If nothing else it would open up the option of going Blink Stalkers => Templar Tech in PvP, with your casters having the role of sniping the shield of other high tech units, rather than being the paper weight they currently are.
In all honesty, the only matchup it would break is PvP, which really, can't get too much worse off in most peoples opinion it seems.
why feedback when you can carpet storm?
that's senseless sorry
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On March 14 2011 14:14 F00LY wrote:
I actually had an idea that would effect PvP alone: Feedback should do deplete shield.
Like a single shot (unnerfed) EMP. I dont know how broken that would be balance wise though. If they go VR/Collosus tech it could be a nice alternate tech path. If nothing else it would open up the option of going Blink Stalkers => Templar Tech in PvP, with your casters having the role of sniping the shield of other high tech units, rather than being the paper weight they currently are.
In all honesty, the only matchup it would break is PvP, which really, can't get too much worse off in most peoples opinion it seems.
This might work if HTs came with, say, council. However, as it stands, most (if not all) protoss prefer to have an extra colo then get the archives, and it would really only be effective vs high tier units and immortals.
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On March 13 2011 12:23 DeltruS wrote:
I just realized... it only takes two fungals to kill an infestor.
This is gonna get messy.
guess what happens when people (re)discover feedback and/or stumble upon it on liquipedia once fungal becomes popular ![[image loading]](http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/images/smiles/ohnoessmiley.gif) ; 90 energy is easily obtained and feedback only costs 50 energy.
we might have the same discussion about templars warping-in-and-immediately-casting-stuff again soon. okokok it's not the same as with storm damaging 'everything' but still...
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If the problem is insta-storms then shouldn't Bliz just make the Amulet's effect only +20 or +15 starting?
Removing it is like removing a chunk of SC-lore.
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On March 14 2011 14:36 sk` wrote:
If the problem is insta-storms then shouldn't Bliz just make the Amulet's effect only +20 or +15 starting?
Removing it is like removing a chunk of SC-lore.
Then we have to consider that it's not instant Psi Storms they believe to be the problem. Thoughts on what might be?
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Zergs rush infestor now = Terran finding a timing attack right before infestors are out... gg
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Don't worry though the bunkers will be taking longer to build so that's 5 more seconds before infantry is immune to storm!
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On March 13 2011 22:03 Mentymion wrote:Here are some reasons why the Patch 1.3 PTR is completley garbage ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- + Show Spoiler +
- It will be the third patch which ignores the Reaper again since Patch 1.1.2. The unit is practically dead cuz of 4 mayor changes such as the Supply Depot Requirement for the Barracks, the Factory Requirement for the Nitro packs Upgrade, the Roach range buff from 3 to 4 and the additionally 5 secs. to build from the Patch 1.1.0 and Blizzard doesn't even care to slightley buff the unit.
- We get another useless build time change for the Bunker. We had a 40 sec. build time at the start of the Beta, 30 sec. during Beta Patch 6 to the end, 35 sec. with the first mayor balance change in Patch 1.1.0 since release and now we will get 40 secs. again which probably won't change anything. Instead of looking on the "Salvage Ability" for bunkers which might be the problem cuz you always get your money back even when your bunker rush fails, Blizzard decides to leave that out and simply increase the build time again.
- Increasing Movement speed from 1.406 to 1.875 for Battlecruisers might be a good change but it's interesting to see that the Battlecruiser get so much attention compared to the Carrier. We had a slight dmg nerf on the Ground weapons during the Patch 1.1.0 and build time decreases for the BC and the Fusion Core during the Beta, fine. Do you actually remember when we had our last Carrier balance change ? Not ? Well the reason is easy. There was none since the start of the Beta. The Carrier is not underpowered but heavily underused and each patch without an effort to change that is a pain in the ass.
- The 3 different Protoss Tech trees will be kinda none existent in the higher level of play if the Khaydarin Amulet and Vortex change really appear in Patch 1.3. As a Protoss player myself I completley agree that Warp-In Storms are to strong but simply removing the upgrade for HT's is so damn silly and Blizzard doesn't even try to redesign those Energy Upgrades but that leads to a another fundamental problem. The whole Templar Tech turns into shit. HT's and DT's were already underused and this change makes it even worse. The Vortex Archon combination is dead. The Mothership has probably lost his best weapon and this unit was also heavily underused. It seems like every P involved Matchup will turn into a War of the Worls with pure Colossi domination and btw. the only thing which had the right to be removed was the Dark Shrine and nothing else.
- Redesigning Fungal Growth instead of Neural Parasite. If you ask a High Level Zerg player about these two abilitys you will always get the same answer. We saw Fungal Growth in the GSL, the ability has potential, it's not like the Spell is totally useless but where the fuck do I see NP in the GSL or high level games? The Spell is probably the worst in the game right now and Blizzard......yeah they buff Fungal Growth -_-
- Ignoring Hydras again and thats really dumb cuz every other change will help out Non-Hydra play. Infestors will take over the DPS role and PvZ turns into Colossi madness anyway so why should we play Hydras anymore ?
- EMP change will have no impact. It rather seems like a joke that EMP finally gets a nerf, after the HT's get nerfed into Oblivion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To summarize.....the patch is complete bullshit!
Balancing the game is not about getting the most units working. Buffing Reaper will not balance the game. Buffer NP will not balance the game. Making Carriers better will not balance the game. Making Hydras better will not balance the game.
Balance patches are about balance. Buffing something has a very good chance of breaking the game, making balance worse. Making balance worse is the opposite of the purpose of a balance patch.
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On March 14 2011 14:40 dapierow wrote:
Zergs rush infestor now = Terran finding a timing attack right before infestors are out... gg
Yes, when Terrans hard counter your build blindly, it tends to be strong. Especially if you make a pool, lair, and infestation pit before making units.
On March 13 2011 23:57 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 19:32 Zorgaz wrote:
When i read the patch notes it seems to me that FG has been buffed.
Why are so many people complaining about a nerf?
We don't fungal to deal damage, we fungal to lock units down and delay pushs, it now takes two fungals to do the job one used to be able to do. Opening infestors is already quite risky and hard to pull off, it's now going to be completely unviable which means more mutaling, which means -yawn-. The nerf to HT means even more collossus and the nerf to infestors means more mutas, how exciting, ignoring all balance considerations what it's done is make the game even more rigid and removes options which imo lowers the fun.
Fungal now deals better DPS to Colossi that Corrupters, is AOE, and Infestors are still useful when Colossi are dead. An infestor with enough energy for two fungals (or two infestors), can now kill all the marines in a bioball in 5 game seconds if they have combat shields and didn't stim. If they don't have combat shields or used stim, you can kill all the marines in 4 seconds with one fungal. This means that if a Terran tries to do a slow push, and use marines to bait you into Siege Tank range (as we often see in the GSL), you can now go "LOL Fungal".
If a Protoss is going Colo/VR, you can hit the whole ball with one fungal and do hundreds of points of damage in less time than it takes Artosis to go "So many banelings!"
Yeah, it's less good at slowing down pushes. But it's much better at killing the shit out of pushes, making slowing the down kind of pointless.
The Fungal change is also a minor buff to Brood Lords in ZvT, because Vikings are armored. Fungal will now gigglestomp vikings. It takes 13 game seconds (4 consecutive fungals) to kill a clump of vikings. That's pretty goddamn fast. Indeed, if the Terran doesn't get a lot of Vikings, they'll die well before the Broods do.
If Zerg generally wasn't bad enough to need it, Infestors would be almost ludicrously OP now. It's no longer situational. It's kill the shit-uational.
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On March 14 2011 14:51 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 22:03 Mentymion wrote:Here are some reasons why the Patch 1.3 PTR is completley garbage ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- + Show Spoiler +
- It will be the third patch which ignores the Reaper again since Patch 1.1.2. The unit is practically dead cuz of 4 mayor changes such as the Supply Depot Requirement for the Barracks, the Factory Requirement for the Nitro packs Upgrade, the Roach range buff from 3 to 4 and the additionally 5 secs. to build from the Patch 1.1.0 and Blizzard doesn't even care to slightley buff the unit.
- We get another useless build time change for the Bunker. We had a 40 sec. build time at the start of the Beta, 30 sec. during Beta Patch 6 to the end, 35 sec. with the first mayor balance change in Patch 1.1.0 since release and now we will get 40 secs. again which probably won't change anything. Instead of looking on the "Salvage Ability" for bunkers which might be the problem cuz you always get your money back even when your bunker rush fails, Blizzard decides to leave that out and simply increase the build time again.
- Increasing Movement speed from 1.406 to 1.875 for Battlecruisers might be a good change but it's interesting to see that the Battlecruiser get so much attention compared to the Carrier. We had a slight dmg nerf on the Ground weapons during the Patch 1.1.0 and build time decreases for the BC and the Fusion Core during the Beta, fine. Do you actually remember when we had our last Carrier balance change ? Not ? Well the reason is easy. There was none since the start of the Beta. The Carrier is not underpowered but heavily underused and each patch without an effort to change that is a pain in the ass.
- The 3 different Protoss Tech trees will be kinda none existent in the higher level of play if the Khaydarin Amulet and Vortex change really appear in Patch 1.3. As a Protoss player myself I completley agree that Warp-In Storms are to strong but simply removing the upgrade for HT's is so damn silly and Blizzard doesn't even try to redesign those Energy Upgrades but that leads to a another fundamental problem. The whole Templar Tech turns into shit. HT's and DT's were already underused and this change makes it even worse. The Vortex Archon combination is dead. The Mothership has probably lost his best weapon and this unit was also heavily underused. It seems like every P involved Matchup will turn into a War of the Worls with pure Colossi domination and btw. the only thing which had the right to be removed was the Dark Shrine and nothing else.
- Redesigning Fungal Growth instead of Neural Parasite. If you ask a High Level Zerg player about these two abilitys you will always get the same answer. We saw Fungal Growth in the GSL, the ability has potential, it's not like the Spell is totally useless but where the fuck do I see NP in the GSL or high level games? The Spell is probably the worst in the game right now and Blizzard......yeah they buff Fungal Growth -_-
- Ignoring Hydras again and thats really dumb cuz every other change will help out Non-Hydra play. Infestors will take over the DPS role and PvZ turns into Colossi madness anyway so why should we play Hydras anymore ?
- EMP change will have no impact. It rather seems like a joke that EMP finally gets a nerf, after the HT's get nerfed into Oblivion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To summarize.....the patch is complete bullshit! Balancing the game is not about getting the most units working. Buffing Reaper will not balance the game. Buffer NP will not balance the game. Making Carriers better will not balance the game. Making Hydras better will not balance the game. Balance patches are about balance. Buffing something has a very good chance of breaking the game, making balance worse. Making balance worse is the opposite of the purpose of a balance patch.
There is more then one way to balance the game, look at how their predecessors balanced starcraft 1. No content was removed, only numbers were changed. This current theme that they have going on seems to be based on pure laziness. Instead of going through all that effort to get storms just right, in terms of damage, range, radius, the actual unit that uses it ect. they simply take the easy path and cut it from the game.
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On March 14 2011 14:39 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 14:36 sk` wrote:
If the problem is insta-storms then shouldn't Bliz just make the Amulet's effect only +20 or +15 starting?
Removing it is like removing a chunk of SC-lore. Then we have to consider that it's not instant Psi Storms they believe to be the problem. Thoughts on what might be? Well... if it is only instant storms then my solution is ideal; however... there are other ways to solve that too. ex. Templars can't be warped, etc.
Hard to say what their objective is on this.
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Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play.
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On March 14 2011 15:09 ToyotomiXD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 14:51 NicolBolas wrote:On March 13 2011 22:03 Mentymion wrote:Here are some reasons why the Patch 1.3 PTR is completley garbage ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- + Show Spoiler +
- It will be the third patch which ignores the Reaper again since Patch 1.1.2. The unit is practically dead cuz of 4 mayor changes such as the Supply Depot Requirement for the Barracks, the Factory Requirement for the Nitro packs Upgrade, the Roach range buff from 3 to 4 and the additionally 5 secs. to build from the Patch 1.1.0 and Blizzard doesn't even care to slightley buff the unit.
- We get another useless build time change for the Bunker. We had a 40 sec. build time at the start of the Beta, 30 sec. during Beta Patch 6 to the end, 35 sec. with the first mayor balance change in Patch 1.1.0 since release and now we will get 40 secs. again which probably won't change anything. Instead of looking on the "Salvage Ability" for bunkers which might be the problem cuz you always get your money back even when your bunker rush fails, Blizzard decides to leave that out and simply increase the build time again.
- Increasing Movement speed from 1.406 to 1.875 for Battlecruisers might be a good change but it's interesting to see that the Battlecruiser get so much attention compared to the Carrier. We had a slight dmg nerf on the Ground weapons during the Patch 1.1.0 and build time decreases for the BC and the Fusion Core during the Beta, fine. Do you actually remember when we had our last Carrier balance change ? Not ? Well the reason is easy. There was none since the start of the Beta. The Carrier is not underpowered but heavily underused and each patch without an effort to change that is a pain in the ass.
- The 3 different Protoss Tech trees will be kinda none existent in the higher level of play if the Khaydarin Amulet and Vortex change really appear in Patch 1.3. As a Protoss player myself I completley agree that Warp-In Storms are to strong but simply removing the upgrade for HT's is so damn silly and Blizzard doesn't even try to redesign those Energy Upgrades but that leads to a another fundamental problem. The whole Templar Tech turns into shit. HT's and DT's were already underused and this change makes it even worse. The Vortex Archon combination is dead. The Mothership has probably lost his best weapon and this unit was also heavily underused. It seems like every P involved Matchup will turn into a War of the Worls with pure Colossi domination and btw. the only thing which had the right to be removed was the Dark Shrine and nothing else.
- Redesigning Fungal Growth instead of Neural Parasite. If you ask a High Level Zerg player about these two abilitys you will always get the same answer. We saw Fungal Growth in the GSL, the ability has potential, it's not like the Spell is totally useless but where the fuck do I see NP in the GSL or high level games? The Spell is probably the worst in the game right now and Blizzard......yeah they buff Fungal Growth -_-
- Ignoring Hydras again and thats really dumb cuz every other change will help out Non-Hydra play. Infestors will take over the DPS role and PvZ turns into Colossi madness anyway so why should we play Hydras anymore ?
- EMP change will have no impact. It rather seems like a joke that EMP finally gets a nerf, after the HT's get nerfed into Oblivion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To summarize.....the patch is complete bullshit! Balancing the game is not about getting the most units working. Buffing Reaper will not balance the game. Buffer NP will not balance the game. Making Carriers better will not balance the game. Making Hydras better will not balance the game. Balance patches are about balance. Buffing something has a very good chance of breaking the game, making balance worse. Making balance worse is the opposite of the purpose of a balance patch. There is more then one way to balance the game, look at how their predecessors balanced starcraft 1. No content was removed, only numbers were changed. This current theme that they have going on seems to be based on pure laziness. Instead of going through all that effort to get storms just right, in terms of damage, range, radius, the actual unit that uses it ect. they simply take the easy path and cut it from the game.
... laziness? I hope you're kidding.
There was no effort put into getting storms "just right" in SC1. The range, radius, unit that uses it, etc, were the same from the day that SC1 shipped. The jewel upgrade never had its properties changed from the day SC1 shipped. The only things that ever changed about storm in SC1 were the damage and duration of effect.
Blizzard has put forth more time and effort in designing and balancing SC2 than they ever put into SC1.
Also, they did not cut Psi Storm from the game. They dropped the Amulet upgrade; that's a far cry from cutting Psi Storm from the game.
On March 14 2011 15:28 sk` wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 14:39 Blisse wrote:On March 14 2011 14:36 sk` wrote:
If the problem is insta-storms then shouldn't Bliz just make the Amulet's effect only +20 or +15 starting?
Removing it is like removing a chunk of SC-lore. Then we have to consider that it's not instant Psi Storms they believe to be the problem. Thoughts on what might be? Well... if it is only instant storms then my solution is ideal; however... there are other ways to solve that too. ex. Templars can't be warped, etc. Hard to say what their objective is on this.
Not being able to warp-in Templar also means not being able to do warp-in Feedbacks where required. That's a very heavy-handed approach to balancing. Also, having a Gateway unit that can't be warped-in is a big kludge. It'd be like having Vikings get upgraded like Factory units just because it has a ground form.
Blizzard's solution is exactly what it needs to be: targeted at the problem and solves exactly and only that. They felt that warp-in Storms were too good, that they were the main reason why TvP was imbalanced late-game. So they took it out.
Removing the upgrade is more likely to actually solve the problem than simply nerfing the upgrade a bit. After all, there isn't that much difference between instant storms and storms 5 seconds later. By forcing them to wait a full 25 energy units, it's much more capable of making everything work.
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I still wish they could have kept in the Amulet and just lowered the starting energy of the High Templar by 15 energy. I seem to remember someone saying a change like that isn't possible though for some reason. Either way ... I will learn to live with all the changes :D
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So now infesters can do more damage than a siege tank can, in the same time than it takes to siege a tank and for it to fire, to a larger area, and it can do this damage without having to stay on the spot, forces you to stay on the spot, AND can still burrow and move at the same time.
Why was the infester considered useless in the first place?
Anyway I'm not complaining, people need to stop raging on about it and trust that if this does make the number skew badly, blizzard will change it. If you honestly feel something is overpowered, then you do get the choice to pick your race at the start of every game...
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Well the mothership is back to normal, it actually had practical use for a while there
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On March 14 2011 16:15 LionsFist wrote:
So now infesters can do more damage than a siege tank can, in the same time than it takes to siege a tank and for it to fire, to a larger area, and it can do this damage without having to stay on the spot, forces you to stay on the spot, AND can still burrow and move at the same time.
Why was the infester considered useless in the first place?
Anyway I'm not complaining, people need to stop raging on about it and trust that if this does make the number skew badly, blizzard will change it. If you honestly feel something is overpowered, then you do get the choice to pick your race at the start of every game...
Well, Infestors have like half the range of Sieged Tanks and can only cast as many Fungal Growths as they have energy.. Terran still can [cloak] Ghosts and EMP/Snipe Infestors.
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EMP was too strong imo, good change. Amulet was too strong too but removing it and not adding anything back is too harsh. Lets just hope the EMP change is separate in Blizzard's eyes from Amulet change (e.g. if Amulet is brought back in any form the EMP change will not be reverted).
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On March 14 2011 15:41 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 15:09 ToyotomiXD wrote:On March 14 2011 14:51 NicolBolas wrote:On March 13 2011 22:03 Mentymion wrote:Here are some reasons why the Patch 1.3 PTR is completley garbage ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- + Show Spoiler +
- It will be the third patch which ignores the Reaper again since Patch 1.1.2. The unit is practically dead cuz of 4 mayor changes such as the Supply Depot Requirement for the Barracks, the Factory Requirement for the Nitro packs Upgrade, the Roach range buff from 3 to 4 and the additionally 5 secs. to build from the Patch 1.1.0 and Blizzard doesn't even care to slightley buff the unit.
- We get another useless build time change for the Bunker. We had a 40 sec. build time at the start of the Beta, 30 sec. during Beta Patch 6 to the end, 35 sec. with the first mayor balance change in Patch 1.1.0 since release and now we will get 40 secs. again which probably won't change anything. Instead of looking on the "Salvage Ability" for bunkers which might be the problem cuz you always get your money back even when your bunker rush fails, Blizzard decides to leave that out and simply increase the build time again.
- Increasing Movement speed from 1.406 to 1.875 for Battlecruisers might be a good change but it's interesting to see that the Battlecruiser get so much attention compared to the Carrier. We had a slight dmg nerf on the Ground weapons during the Patch 1.1.0 and build time decreases for the BC and the Fusion Core during the Beta, fine. Do you actually remember when we had our last Carrier balance change ? Not ? Well the reason is easy. There was none since the start of the Beta. The Carrier is not underpowered but heavily underused and each patch without an effort to change that is a pain in the ass.
- The 3 different Protoss Tech trees will be kinda none existent in the higher level of play if the Khaydarin Amulet and Vortex change really appear in Patch 1.3. As a Protoss player myself I completley agree that Warp-In Storms are to strong but simply removing the upgrade for HT's is so damn silly and Blizzard doesn't even try to redesign those Energy Upgrades but that leads to a another fundamental problem. The whole Templar Tech turns into shit. HT's and DT's were already underused and this change makes it even worse. The Vortex Archon combination is dead. The Mothership has probably lost his best weapon and this unit was also heavily underused. It seems like every P involved Matchup will turn into a War of the Worls with pure Colossi domination and btw. the only thing which had the right to be removed was the Dark Shrine and nothing else.
- Redesigning Fungal Growth instead of Neural Parasite. If you ask a High Level Zerg player about these two abilitys you will always get the same answer. We saw Fungal Growth in the GSL, the ability has potential, it's not like the Spell is totally useless but where the fuck do I see NP in the GSL or high level games? The Spell is probably the worst in the game right now and Blizzard......yeah they buff Fungal Growth -_-
- Ignoring Hydras again and thats really dumb cuz every other change will help out Non-Hydra play. Infestors will take over the DPS role and PvZ turns into Colossi madness anyway so why should we play Hydras anymore ?
- EMP change will have no impact. It rather seems like a joke that EMP finally gets a nerf, after the HT's get nerfed into Oblivion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To summarize.....the patch is complete bullshit! Balancing the game is not about getting the most units working. Buffing Reaper will not balance the game. Buffer NP will not balance the game. Making Carriers better will not balance the game. Making Hydras better will not balance the game. Balance patches are about balance. Buffing something has a very good chance of breaking the game, making balance worse. Making balance worse is the opposite of the purpose of a balance patch. There is more then one way to balance the game, look at how their predecessors balanced starcraft 1. No content was removed, only numbers were changed. This current theme that they have going on seems to be based on pure laziness. Instead of going through all that effort to get storms just right, in terms of damage, range, radius, the actual unit that uses it ect. they simply take the easy path and cut it from the game. ... laziness? I hope you're kidding. There was no effort put into getting storms "just right" in SC1. The range, radius, unit that uses it, etc, were the same from the day that SC1 shipped. The jewel upgrade never had its properties changed from the day SC1 shipped. The only things that ever changed about storm in SC1 were the damage and duration of effect. Blizzard has put forth more time and effort in designing and balancing SC2 than they ever put into SC1. Also, they did not cut Psi Storm from the game. They dropped the Amulet upgrade; that's a far cry from cutting Psi Storm from the game. Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 15:28 sk` wrote:On March 14 2011 14:39 Blisse wrote:On March 14 2011 14:36 sk` wrote:
If the problem is insta-storms then shouldn't Bliz just make the Amulet's effect only +20 or +15 starting?
Removing it is like removing a chunk of SC-lore. Then we have to consider that it's not instant Psi Storms they believe to be the problem. Thoughts on what might be? Well... if it is only instant storms then my solution is ideal; however... there are other ways to solve that too. ex. Templars can't be warped, etc. Hard to say what their objective is on this. Not being able to warp-in Templar also means not being able to do warp-in Feedbacks where required. That's a very heavy-handed approach to balancing. Also, having a Gateway unit that can't be warped-in is a big kludge. It'd be like having Vikings get upgraded like Factory units just because it has a ground form. Blizzard's solution is exactly what it needs to be: targeted at the problem and solves exactly and only that. They felt that warp-in Storms were too good, that they were the main reason why TvP was imbalanced late-game. So they took it out. Removing the upgrade is more likely to actually solve the problem than simply nerfing the upgrade a bit. After all, there isn't that much difference between instant storms and storms 5 seconds later. By forcing them to wait a full 25 energy units, it's much more capable of making everything work.
Actually, there's a huge difference between instant storms and storms 5 seconds later. And who's to say that they can't nerf KA to make storm 10 seconds later instead of 5 seconds later? That too would solve the problem of warp-in storms yet provide a nice bonus to HT energy that's worth being researched. I too feel that cutting out content such as upgrades is the wrong way to go, and it's really annoying to see stuff getting taken out constantly, especially since blizzard seemed to hint that they wouldn't really be adding new multiplayer units in the expansions. So far, Protoss has lost 2 upgrades now (VR speed, KA), and if the trend of REMOVING stuff in balance patches continues, who knows how many more upgrades for any race will be removed (yeah, slipperly slope, blah blah, and I'll gladly eat my words if Blizzard actually adds in a NEW upgrade in a balance patch, but I doubt it). All you get from REMOVING upgrades is simplifying the game, which is terrible.
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On March 14 2011 16:24 Chicken Chaser wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 16:15 LionsFist wrote:
So now infesters can do more damage than a siege tank can, in the same time than it takes to siege a tank and for it to fire, to a larger area, and it can do this damage without having to stay on the spot, forces you to stay on the spot, AND can still burrow and move at the same time.
Why was the infester considered useless in the first place?
Anyway I'm not complaining, people need to stop raging on about it and trust that if this does make the number skew badly, blizzard will change it. If you honestly feel something is overpowered, then you do get the choice to pick your race at the start of every game... Well, Infestors have like half the range of Sieged Tanks and can only cast as many Fungal Growths as they have energy.. Terran still can [cloak] Ghosts and EMP/Snipe Infestors.
Well now Ghosts will only remove up to 100 energy so if you build up enough you'll still get the fungal off. Plus Ghosts really eat into the teching of a Terran player; they're either going to sacrifice medivacs or tanks to get enough of them to preempt infestors, especially if you're talking upgrading cloak. It will be interesting to watch the matchup shift after this change.
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The ghost change seems reasonable given the removable of the HT energy upgrade. Still, I'm pretty displeased with it overall, it would be nice if they at least lowered the cost of ghosts slightly. Forcing twice as many emps on high templars which keeping the cost requirement the same seems strenuous.
Hopefully this change is for the best.
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I am so sick of these updates and nerfs to terran and protoss! Blizzard needs to stop worrying about protoss and terran and buff zerg. Nerfing just makes it worse, they should face the problem head on by dealing with zerg, not trying to make terran and protoss worse to bring them on the level of zerg.
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I agree with posters like HolyArrow - removing upgrades or erring on nerfs makes the game more simplistic and less enjoyable. Blizzard needs more lateral thinking when it's trying to address balance. They have the PTR implemented, they should use it to it's full ability to explore solutions.
An idea. Instead of removing the KA, how about prevent production of HTs from Warp Gates (with Warp-In) and rather can only be produced from Gateways (old style). This is substantial and should be accompanied with a reversion of Immortals built back at the Gateway (w/ Twilight Council), and likewise cannot be Warped-In. For those who complain about Protoss macro being easy, this should add a little extra complexity (forcing a mix of Gateways and Warp Gates), while keeping KA. The Immortal move (reversion) allows Toss the flexibility to respond to early mass Roaches and Marauders.
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On March 14 2011 15:09 ToyotomiXD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 14:51 NicolBolas wrote:On March 13 2011 22:03 Mentymion wrote:Here are some reasons why the Patch 1.3 PTR is completley garbage ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- + Show Spoiler +
- It will be the third patch which ignores the Reaper again since Patch 1.1.2. The unit is practically dead cuz of 4 mayor changes such as the Supply Depot Requirement for the Barracks, the Factory Requirement for the Nitro packs Upgrade, the Roach range buff from 3 to 4 and the additionally 5 secs. to build from the Patch 1.1.0 and Blizzard doesn't even care to slightley buff the unit.
- We get another useless build time change for the Bunker. We had a 40 sec. build time at the start of the Beta, 30 sec. during Beta Patch 6 to the end, 35 sec. with the first mayor balance change in Patch 1.1.0 since release and now we will get 40 secs. again which probably won't change anything. Instead of looking on the "Salvage Ability" for bunkers which might be the problem cuz you always get your money back even when your bunker rush fails, Blizzard decides to leave that out and simply increase the build time again.
- Increasing Movement speed from 1.406 to 1.875 for Battlecruisers might be a good change but it's interesting to see that the Battlecruiser get so much attention compared to the Carrier. We had a slight dmg nerf on the Ground weapons during the Patch 1.1.0 and build time decreases for the BC and the Fusion Core during the Beta, fine. Do you actually remember when we had our last Carrier balance change ? Not ? Well the reason is easy. There was none since the start of the Beta. The Carrier is not underpowered but heavily underused and each patch without an effort to change that is a pain in the ass.
- The 3 different Protoss Tech trees will be kinda none existent in the higher level of play if the Khaydarin Amulet and Vortex change really appear in Patch 1.3. As a Protoss player myself I completley agree that Warp-In Storms are to strong but simply removing the upgrade for HT's is so damn silly and Blizzard doesn't even try to redesign those Energy Upgrades but that leads to a another fundamental problem. The whole Templar Tech turns into shit. HT's and DT's were already underused and this change makes it even worse. The Vortex Archon combination is dead. The Mothership has probably lost his best weapon and this unit was also heavily underused. It seems like every P involved Matchup will turn into a War of the Worls with pure Colossi domination and btw. the only thing which had the right to be removed was the Dark Shrine and nothing else.
- Redesigning Fungal Growth instead of Neural Parasite. If you ask a High Level Zerg player about these two abilitys you will always get the same answer. We saw Fungal Growth in the GSL, the ability has potential, it's not like the Spell is totally useless but where the fuck do I see NP in the GSL or high level games? The Spell is probably the worst in the game right now and Blizzard......yeah they buff Fungal Growth -_-
- Ignoring Hydras again and thats really dumb cuz every other change will help out Non-Hydra play. Infestors will take over the DPS role and PvZ turns into Colossi madness anyway so why should we play Hydras anymore ?
- EMP change will have no impact. It rather seems like a joke that EMP finally gets a nerf, after the HT's get nerfed into Oblivion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To summarize.....the patch is complete bullshit! Balancing the game is not about getting the most units working. Buffing Reaper will not balance the game. Buffer NP will not balance the game. Making Carriers better will not balance the game. Making Hydras better will not balance the game. Balance patches are about balance. Buffing something has a very good chance of breaking the game, making balance worse. Making balance worse is the opposite of the purpose of a balance patch. There is more then one way to balance the game, look at how their predecessors balanced starcraft 1. No content was removed, only numbers were changed. This current theme that they have going on seems to be based on pure laziness. Instead of going through all that effort to get storms just right, in terms of damage, range, radius, the actual unit that uses it ect. they simply take the easy path and cut it from the game.
Broodwar didnt need to remove anything because it wasnt as volatile as SC2 is. Perfect unit movement AI and unlimited unit selection allowed for some units to be "overkill" and still not ruining the game. If you had Dark Swarm in SC2 it would completely break the game, but in BW it was merely "really hard". The volatility of SC2 comes from "improvements" which cant be quantified like the ones I mentioned above and the new macro mechanics.
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On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play.
To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios:
1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons."
2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..."
Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well:
"Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most."
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On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most."
Your completely neglecting the fact that feedback is one unit and emp is an aoe that knocks out shields and energy.. Emp does so much more damage its not even funny.
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On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most."
EMP also Takes out 100 shields and is an AOE. Feedback can hit one unit and only one unit, and said unit needs mana, AND enough mana to actually kill it.
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On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most."
Do you (and everyone who thinks like you) understand that rendering a unit useless (reduce enough energy such that it can't cast) is effectively equivalent to killing it?
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On March 15 2011 05:48 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 15:41 NicolBolas wrote:On March 14 2011 15:09 ToyotomiXD wrote:On March 14 2011 14:51 NicolBolas wrote:On March 13 2011 22:03 Mentymion wrote:Here are some reasons why the Patch 1.3 PTR is completley garbage ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- + Show Spoiler +
- It will be the third patch which ignores the Reaper again since Patch 1.1.2. The unit is practically dead cuz of 4 mayor changes such as the Supply Depot Requirement for the Barracks, the Factory Requirement for the Nitro packs Upgrade, the Roach range buff from 3 to 4 and the additionally 5 secs. to build from the Patch 1.1.0 and Blizzard doesn't even care to slightley buff the unit.
- We get another useless build time change for the Bunker. We had a 40 sec. build time at the start of the Beta, 30 sec. during Beta Patch 6 to the end, 35 sec. with the first mayor balance change in Patch 1.1.0 since release and now we will get 40 secs. again which probably won't change anything. Instead of looking on the "Salvage Ability" for bunkers which might be the problem cuz you always get your money back even when your bunker rush fails, Blizzard decides to leave that out and simply increase the build time again.
- Increasing Movement speed from 1.406 to 1.875 for Battlecruisers might be a good change but it's interesting to see that the Battlecruiser get so much attention compared to the Carrier. We had a slight dmg nerf on the Ground weapons during the Patch 1.1.0 and build time decreases for the BC and the Fusion Core during the Beta, fine. Do you actually remember when we had our last Carrier balance change ? Not ? Well the reason is easy. There was none since the start of the Beta. The Carrier is not underpowered but heavily underused and each patch without an effort to change that is a pain in the ass.
- The 3 different Protoss Tech trees will be kinda none existent in the higher level of play if the Khaydarin Amulet and Vortex change really appear in Patch 1.3. As a Protoss player myself I completley agree that Warp-In Storms are to strong but simply removing the upgrade for HT's is so damn silly and Blizzard doesn't even try to redesign those Energy Upgrades but that leads to a another fundamental problem. The whole Templar Tech turns into shit. HT's and DT's were already underused and this change makes it even worse. The Vortex Archon combination is dead. The Mothership has probably lost his best weapon and this unit was also heavily underused. It seems like every P involved Matchup will turn into a War of the Worls with pure Colossi domination and btw. the only thing which had the right to be removed was the Dark Shrine and nothing else.
- Redesigning Fungal Growth instead of Neural Parasite. If you ask a High Level Zerg player about these two abilitys you will always get the same answer. We saw Fungal Growth in the GSL, the ability has potential, it's not like the Spell is totally useless but where the fuck do I see NP in the GSL or high level games? The Spell is probably the worst in the game right now and Blizzard......yeah they buff Fungal Growth -_-
- Ignoring Hydras again and thats really dumb cuz every other change will help out Non-Hydra play. Infestors will take over the DPS role and PvZ turns into Colossi madness anyway so why should we play Hydras anymore ?
- EMP change will have no impact. It rather seems like a joke that EMP finally gets a nerf, after the HT's get nerfed into Oblivion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To summarize.....the patch is complete bullshit! Balancing the game is not about getting the most units working. Buffing Reaper will not balance the game. Buffer NP will not balance the game. Making Carriers better will not balance the game. Making Hydras better will not balance the game. Balance patches are about balance. Buffing something has a very good chance of breaking the game, making balance worse. Making balance worse is the opposite of the purpose of a balance patch. There is more then one way to balance the game, look at how their predecessors balanced starcraft 1. No content was removed, only numbers were changed. This current theme that they have going on seems to be based on pure laziness. Instead of going through all that effort to get storms just right, in terms of damage, range, radius, the actual unit that uses it ect. they simply take the easy path and cut it from the game. ... laziness? I hope you're kidding. There was no effort put into getting storms "just right" in SC1. The range, radius, unit that uses it, etc, were the same from the day that SC1 shipped. The jewel upgrade never had its properties changed from the day SC1 shipped. The only things that ever changed about storm in SC1 were the damage and duration of effect. Blizzard has put forth more time and effort in designing and balancing SC2 than they ever put into SC1. Also, they did not cut Psi Storm from the game. They dropped the Amulet upgrade; that's a far cry from cutting Psi Storm from the game. On March 14 2011 15:28 sk` wrote:On March 14 2011 14:39 Blisse wrote:On March 14 2011 14:36 sk` wrote:
If the problem is insta-storms then shouldn't Bliz just make the Amulet's effect only +20 or +15 starting?
Removing it is like removing a chunk of SC-lore. Then we have to consider that it's not instant Psi Storms they believe to be the problem. Thoughts on what might be? Well... if it is only instant storms then my solution is ideal; however... there are other ways to solve that too. ex. Templars can't be warped, etc. Hard to say what their objective is on this. Not being able to warp-in Templar also means not being able to do warp-in Feedbacks where required. That's a very heavy-handed approach to balancing. Also, having a Gateway unit that can't be warped-in is a big kludge. It'd be like having Vikings get upgraded like Factory units just because it has a ground form. Blizzard's solution is exactly what it needs to be: targeted at the problem and solves exactly and only that. They felt that warp-in Storms were too good, that they were the main reason why TvP was imbalanced late-game. So they took it out. Removing the upgrade is more likely to actually solve the problem than simply nerfing the upgrade a bit. After all, there isn't that much difference between instant storms and storms 5 seconds later. By forcing them to wait a full 25 energy units, it's much more capable of making everything work. Actually, there's a huge difference between instant storms and storms 5 seconds later. And who's to say that they can't nerf KA to make storm 10 seconds later instead of 5 seconds later? That too would solve the problem of warp-in storms yet provide a nice bonus to HT energy that's worth being researched. I too feel that cutting out content such as upgrades is the wrong way to go, and it's really annoying to see stuff getting taken out constantly, especially since blizzard seemed to hint that they wouldn't really be adding new multiplayer units in the expansions. So far, Protoss has lost 2 upgrades now (VR speed, KA), and if the trend of REMOVING stuff in balance patches continues, who knows how many more upgrades for any race will be removed (yeah, slipperly slope, blah blah, and I'll gladly eat my words if Blizzard actually adds in a NEW upgrade in a balance patch, but I doubt it). All you get from REMOVING upgrades is simplifying the game, which is terrible.
That's utter nonsense. Removing stuff does not mean only simplifying the game. And it doesn't even mean that.
Removing an overpowered upgrade does exactly and only that: it removes an overpowered upgrade. Whether this makes the game simpler or not depends on what that upgrade did and how players play with it gone.
Take the KA removal under discussion. Removing it makes it harder to use HTs. You can't just warp-in storms anymore; you have to plan ahead. If you want to use storms defensively, you now must have built the HT ahead of time. This created added complexity for the Protoss to deal with.
In turn, it creates complexity for other races. EMP is now a useful weapon against HTs, whereas before, it couldn't really be used to stop them once KA hit the field. They could always warp-in storms. Now they can't. Zerg no longer have to fear warp-in storms; if they drop you somewhere and an HT isn't already built, then that drop is more likely to succeed.
The only way you can call that simplification is if you think that HTs will simply be abandoned wholesale because of this change.
Also, Blizzard didn't "seemed to hint" any such thing. Saying that they won't "just" be adding new units directly implies that they will be adding new units. The inability of some people to read the word "just" does not change this fact.
Protoss may have lost Flux Vanes, but they also gained a stronger and more useful Void Ray overall. That's a win in my book; if removing an upgrade allows them to make a unit better, so be it.
On March 16 2011 15:29 Fwiffo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most." Do you (and everyone who thinks like you) understand that rendering a unit useless (reduce enough energy such that it can't cast) is effectively equivalent to killing it?
But it's not equivalent to killing it.
If I kill your HT, you will have lost that HT, certainly. But you will also have gained 2 food with which to build other things. Yes, that's not much of a tradeoff, which is why people prefer that their units live. However, you still gain something out of it.
If I drain a HT's energy, that HT is now almost entirely useless. But it also is still taking up 2 food. So in some ways, it's worse than being dead; you lose the unit, but you still don't have the food back. Yes, if you wait for it to gain its energy back (assuming your opponent allows it, which they shouldn't), then it's better.
But overall, particularly in the late game where money is (relatively) cheaper than time (the time to regen energy), the meager cost of an HT is worth far less than having 2 food attached to a useful unit. That's why Protoss merge HTs into Archons when they're empty rather than having them sit around being useless.
Ghosts with zero energy can still shoot something. They can even call down a nuke. The most you can do with an HT is build an Archon.
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Just a quick thing to point out. Ghosts do have snipe which can in fact kill an HT pretty effectively. It's not always optimal at times, but it is there. And no, it's not as glorious as Feedback, but don't make it sound like the Ghost is defenseless against Feedback.
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One question: if a High Templar is in a Warp Prism, and the Prism is EMP'd, does the HT lose its energy? I don't think so, but I haven't tried it. If so, that might be a good way to shepherd HTs around.
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they should make teching to templar a lot easier/quicker so that you can get them out earlier to conserve energy. maybe reduce build time of templar archives or reduce the amount of minerals it takes to build / research storm
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I recall hearing about how corruptors were gaining bonus against armored as trade off for losing bonus against massives.
Anyone know where that is if it even exists at all?
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fungle is going to be more deadlier than psionic storms.
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On March 16 2011 16:29 ktimekiller wrote:
I recall hearing about how corruptors were gaining bonus against armored as trade off for losing bonus against massives.
Anyone know where that is if it even exists at all?
It was in the "rumored changes that are being thought about by Blizzard" list that came out some time before the real 1.3 PTR deal. One of the few items on that list that didn't make it for the PTR. So, it probably won't happen.
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On March 16 2011 16:33 dde wrote:
fungle is going to be more deadlier than psionic storms.
"More deadlier"? Perhaps. FG dishes out damage to a 77% greater area than Storm (radius of 2 vs 1.5). More deadly, indeed.
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On March 16 2011 15:39 NicolBolas wrote:
One question: if a High Templar is in a Warp Prism, and the Prism is EMP'd, does the HT lose its energy? I don't think so, but I haven't tried it. If so, that might be a good way to shepherd HTs around.
didnt work that way in bw, so im assuming it doesnt in this either
infact it was quite common to put templar in shuttles vs terran, just to make sure roaming vultures didnt rape them or vessels emp them
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On March 16 2011 15:16 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most." Your completely neglecting the fact that feedback is one unit and emp is an aoe that knocks out shields and energy.. Emp does so much more damage its not even funny.
EMP never ever killed a unit; Feedback already has. The point is that a Ghost is pretty useless without energy and half-dead after a Feedback anyways while two Templars can still merge into an Archon and be useful after a few seconds.
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As a protoss player it feels like looking at the end of "the Return of the Jedi". Luke watches as the ghost of Anakin joins the ghosts of Yoda and Obi-wan, before going back to the party with the living. (just insert colossus, HT, mothership and carrier for the roles...) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S2auEHR4rg&NR=1).
I dont care to talk about the racial balance now. But balancing of units really makes me sad. The game would be so much better, if all the units would be a realistic choice. The easy way out to balance will eventyally lead to each race having one unit - easy to balance, boring as hell. I'm sure it wont get that bad, but P late game is more than half-way there allready. This patch has some good things also, but overall I'd prefer no new patch at all to thisone. How hard can it be to give a little buff to all the units we never ever see?
Get ready to see colossus in every single PvAnybody game that goes long.
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I think some change to the templar was necessary but the complete removal of the amulet? Many people have suggested changes such as giving storm a cool down upon warp in, reducing the amount KA gives you, or making KA make templar regenerate energy faster.
But what about since KA is gone undoing one of the previous nerfs to storm that occurred in alpha. I'm sure instant storms were a problem then too. Which was part of the reason for nerf in storm.
On a side note please stop saying the ghost nerf was supposed to help the HT. The ghost nerf most likely had the sentry in mind. It does help HT even if it is uncommon for them to have 150+ energy. That one time you happen to engage the terran with a ghost with very high energy it could be battle changing meaning the difference between you losing the battle or not.
Also what about this Say you have 2-3 templar with 200 energy and like 6 at ~75. Use the 200 energy ones for feed back because they can still eliminate 2 ghosts from the battle.
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The problem lies with warpgates more than KA. I wish they never put warpgates in the game.
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I've always wondered that it seems like it would be easy to balance.. if the problem lies within the warpgates themselves. (and help out PvP at the same time.)
Make the warpgate have a maximum range. As it stands right now you build your first couple of gates at your ramp or you natural choke after that you put them wherever it would be convenient to have a 3x3 building you can even spread them out to your other bases so the enemy never has a chance to kill them all simultaneously. I mean it doesn't matter where they are you can train the units wherever you want.
No other research from any other race is as essential as warpgate in every one of there MUs. Not even stim and zergling speed because it is possible to play without those upgrades
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Ahem, hold on there Dr. Phil, my suggestion was to restrict HTs to build only from Gateways (and not Warp Gates) to remove Warp-In Storms and keep KA, NOT to remove Warp Gates. WGs are a great step forward from BW. To suggest their removal is like asking to remove Larva Inject and Reactors.
Plus (as I already posted) I'd like to see a reversion of Immortals being built back at the Gateway (w/ Twilight Council and no Warp-In either) to compensate for early mass armored enemy builds while at the same time increase the complexity of Toss macro by requiring to mix up Gateways and Warp Gates.
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What's the status of PTR right now? I haven't been able to log on in a while (EU). Is it just me?
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On March 16 2011 15:29 Fwiffo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most." Do you (and everyone who thinks like you) understand that rendering a unit useless (reduce enough energy such that it can't cast) is effectively equivalent to killing it?
This is quite dumb of you to say, feedback a ghost, it is dead or useless, emp a HT, makes an archon. If hts have full energy and they get hit with emp, they can still storm, if sentries have full energy (which they generaly do if they have sentry expands) and you emp them, they still have half of their forcefields, and thats only the ones you hit, which still leaves a ridiculous amount of ffs which changes the game dramatically. I wish they would actually do something helpful without nerfing the exact same subject again basically neutralizing the entire thing.
Also dde is right, fungals are going to be outrageously good now, the zergs will never attack and just use fg to kill every marine in 4-8 seconds as terran tries to push.
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On March 18 2011 02:46 bLuR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 15:29 Fwiffo wrote:On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most." Do you (and everyone who thinks like you) understand that rendering a unit useless (reduce enough energy such that it can't cast) is effectively equivalent to killing it? This is quite dumb of you to say, feedback a ghost, it is dead or useless, emp a HT, makes an archon. If hts have full energy and they get hit with emp, they can still storm, if sentries have full energy (which they generaly do if they have sentry expands) and you emp them, they still have half of their forcefields, and thats only the ones you hit, which still leaves a ridiculous amount of ffs which changes the game dramatically. I wish they would actually do something helpful without nerfing the exact same subject again basically neutralizing the entire thing. Also dde is right, fungals are going to be outrageously good now, the zergs will never attack and just use fg to kill every marine in 4-8 seconds as terran tries to push.
What are you talking about? Ghosts w/o energy are still useful. They do ridiculous damage vs light (= zealots). HTs w/o energy can morph into an archon, which gets kited by MM aaaaaaall daaaaaay looooooong, without doing any damage.
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On March 18 2011 02:46 bLuR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 15:29 Fwiffo wrote:On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most." Do you (and everyone who thinks like you) understand that rendering a unit useless (reduce enough energy such that it can't cast) is effectively equivalent to killing it? This is quite dumb of you to say, feedback a ghost, it is dead or useless, emp a HT, makes an archon. If hts have full energy and they get hit with emp, they can still storm, if sentries have full energy (which they generaly do if they have sentry expands) and you emp them, they still have half of their forcefields, and thats only the ones you hit, which still leaves a ridiculous amount of ffs which changes the game dramatically. I wish they would actually do something helpful without nerfing the exact same subject again basically neutralizing the entire thing. Also dde is right, fungals are going to be outrageously good now, the zergs will never attack and just use fg to kill every marine in 4-8 seconds as terran tries to push.
You could argue queuing two snipes onto a HT is basically the same as the Ghost being able to use Feedback on the unit. Though I tend to agree that this seems like a myopic (hehe) decision by Blizzard and a band-aid fix.
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On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most."
lol. why even bother having this discussion when people like this are involved.
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On March 18 2011 02:56 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most." lol. why even bother having this discussion when people like this are involved.
If you're not going to have a discussion you might as well not post.
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Stinks that every thread about this patch on TL is about the KA nerf. My only gripe is that I love to see spell casters used at the highest levels of play. One example I can think of that was legendary was when (I think it was SlayerSBoxer) was in a tight position getting owned by carriers with like 5 obs to detect his cloaked wraiths. SlayerSBoxer went around the carriers with a drop ship, dropped off medics, scanned and blinded every single observer of the Protoss and came in with cloaked wraiths for the win. Spellcasters make epic micro battles and should actually be able to turn the tide of a game with perfect Micro.
The whole Viking flower is only different when using patrol now? I'm guessing this isn't going to effect stacking air units by spam clicking 1 spot like with a muta-ball. Just wanted to see a picture of how things fly now when you try to patrol a viking flower.
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We may still see HT play in PvZ for feedback because of how powerful FG is going to be against an armored Colossus/Anything ball. They will surely become more rare in PvT which is sad because the back and forth between getting snipes/EMP off VS getting storms/feedback off made for some interesting back and forth games.
I like the idea of amulet increasing HT energy generation, it will delay the time HT can get storms off following a warp in (intention of the nerf) but it won't be nearly as severe and will reward players who are able to keep their HTs alive for more storms/feedback.
For Colossus, it SHOULD be a powerful tech path, but it should not completely outshine everthing else the protoss has late game. I would love to see HTs and carriers brought up to snuff so that hey, protoss can go for his Colossus death ball play, OR HT play OR carrier play... would make XvP SO much more dynamic.
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So now ghosts are countered even harder by feedback, but it doesn't matter because HT are practically worthless?
Makes sense...
Edit: I don't understand why blizzard is fucking with the casters so much. As far as I'm concerned the casters had a great dynamic before patch 1.3, with each having a technique of dealing with the other (except infestors who were basically at the mercy of EMP/feedback).
On the other hand, colossi and tanks (more colossi than tanks) allow players waaaaay overpowered strategies that can be abused very easily on a lot of the terrain in the map pool. But they don't get touched?
I'll be honest, I don't even see Ghosts/Infestors used at a high level, and HT only situationally. Why NERF them if they are already underused? Seems pointless IMO.
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On March 18 2011 03:10 Demonace34 wrote:
Stinks that every thread about this patch on TL is about the KA nerf. My only gripe is that I love to see spell casters used at the highest levels of play. One example I can think of that was legendary was when (I think it was SlayerSBoxer) was in a tight position getting owned by carriers with like 5 obs to detect his cloaked wraiths. SlayerSBoxer went around the carriers with a drop ship, dropped off medics, scanned and blinded every single observer of the Protoss and came in with cloaked wraiths for the win. Spellcasters make epic micro battles and should actually be able to turn the tide of a game with perfect Micro.
The whole Viking flower is only different when using patrol now? I'm guessing this isn't going to effect stacking air units by spam clicking 1 spot like with a muta-ball. Just wanted to see a picture of how things fly now when you try to patrol a viking flower.
you can still set them to patrol, you just can't set units to patrol directly where they are already standing. sadly this also means no more dancing probes
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Russian Federation396 Posts
so the archon toilet is just completely gone now...
that was probably the best use of the mothership in the first place
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So is the PTR down? (Can people stop arguing already? Does the winner of a forum argument ever win anything?)
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I've said since the start the problem with this game is the multiplyers.. The WG tech, the larva inject and the reactors.. It makes units worth far less than the resources they cost because they can be recovered and massed up again so quickly. Imagine how little 4 gates would be used if you had to rally? it would eliminate the ridiculous build's effectiveness completely. (I'm a toss player btw).
If units where not so easily replaced it would make for more careful use during battles.
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On March 18 2011 04:02 JitnikoVi wrote:so the archon toilet is just completely gone now... that was probably the best use of the mothership in the first place
"Guys, there's more then one mothership build"
"Kill the better one"
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Wouldn't it be a better fix to make Ghost EMP a late game upgrade and make the toss shields count as both Light and Armored so their shields take maximum punch like in starcraft brood war?
Maybe even nerf the marauder a little bit? Basically i just think it's dumb how many shots it takes a Siege Tank to kill a Zlot in SC2. Mechs not impossible vs Toss but the onus is still on the Terran to be the better player compared to toss Zlot immortal+random support 1a.
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Changes summarized:
HT possible tech-path instead of Colossus? Nerf it, only colossus should be allowed!
Ghosts effective? NERF! We only allow marines and marauders from terran!
Infestor effective as zerg? NO! Only roach/ling/muta is allowed!
They seem to be trying to only make one tech-path viable ;_;
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On March 18 2011 04:02 JitnikoVi wrote:so the archon toilet is just completely gone now... that was probably the best use of the mothership in the first place
you can still use it as an "oh shit" recall if you're doing something with blink stalkers and a counterattack comes.
But other than that yeah it now seems quite useless. I guess you can use still split armies with vortex + FF or get part of an army and then retreat. but its much less effective.
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If I'm going to be forced into robo tech every single game from now on, I really hope they just rework protoss from scratch in the expansion and scrap the colossus. Such an uninteresting unit..
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On March 18 2011 04:15 roflcopter420 wrote:
Changes summarized:
HT possible tech-path instead of Colossus? Nerf it, only colossus should be allowed!
Ghosts effective? NERF! We only allow marines and marauders from terran!
Infestor effective as zerg? NO! Only roach/ling/muta is allowed!
They seem to be trying to only make one tech-path viable ;_;
I'd disagree that the Infestor change is a nerf - they essentially gave it DPS in exchange for stun time. To be fair, killing all micro for 8 seconds is a bit overkill. Now, it can be used against the Protoss deathball.
Likewise, I don't think that the Ghost nerf is going to make them useless against Protoss. I think even dealing the shield damage is a worthy use of EMP.
I'd comment on the HT change, but I think it's far more overkill than the others. I'm also biased, though, as I play Protoss.
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On March 18 2011 03:02 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 02:56 Alejandrisha wrote:On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most." lol. why even bother having this discussion when people like this are involved. If you're not going to have a discussion you might as well not post.
That is his point.
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I don't think this change will get rid of the HT. Instead, HTs will supplement colossi in the late game. Getting 8 colossi isn't that much better than getting 5 colossi, since they start bumping into each other, and they can't all fire at the same time. Might as well build HTs for storm and feedback. HTs are actually very useful at killing vikings as well, because vikings are slow and tend to stack.
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Has Blizzard commented at all lately on what they've found by having the KA nerf on PTR?
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On March 18 2011 05:03 ColonelSeitan wrote:
Has Blizzard commented at all lately on what they've found by having the KA nerf on PTR?
You'll find out what Blizzard thinks of it when you wake up one morning and find the famous KA nerf patch downloading on your computer.
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On March 18 2011 04:04 RogerChillingworth wrote:
So is the PTR down? (Can people stop arguing already? Does the winner of a forum argument ever win anything?)
Yes. It's a shame everyone in here wants to argue about things they could (but decide not to) test.
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On March 18 2011 03:53 SugarBear wrote:
I'll be honest, I don't even see Ghosts/Infestors used at a high level, and HT only situationally. Why NERF them if they are already underused? Seems pointless IMO.
Uhhh. I don't know where you get this from. Theres been a lot of ghost play recently. Pretty much every TvP we've seen in GSL has included some kind of ghost play (if the game gets past 10 or so minutes). I think it was one of  San's games on Scrap Station there was some pretty epic back and forths between ghosts and HT's feed-backing and sniping each other.
As for infestors, they are pretty vital in ZvT, in dealing with mass Marine/Marauder balls. We've even seen  July use infestors to do some pretty cool fungal harass on Xel'naga. Not to mention that trying to beat mech would be near impossible without neural parasite.
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I don't agree with the emp nerf it makes no sense because there are obviously other units out there that you can emp that are no the ht. Like the BC, RAVEN < maybe blizzard is trying to lead terran TVT to a path of total awesomeness... I wish they would just give terran lock down again and give the HT back their silly KA so we can have a lock down battle vs storm crazy awesomeness
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On March 18 2011 04:24 hifriend wrote:
If I'm going to be forced into robo tech every single game from now on, I really hope they just rework protoss from scratch in the expansion and scrap the colossus. Such an uninteresting unit..
Agree, scrapping the collossus would be the best thing for protoss.
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On March 18 2011 06:51 CampinSam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 04:24 hifriend wrote:
If I'm going to be forced into robo tech every single game from now on, I really hope they just rework protoss from scratch in the expansion and scrap the colossus. Such an uninteresting unit.. Agree, scrapping the collossus would be the best thing for protoss.
That's not likely to happen... The entire Protoss race is balanced around the Colossi right now... maybe with changes in playing style over time, accompanied with some minor nerfs/buffs where appropriate (BUFF IMMORTAL RANGE), Protoss play will move away from Colossi and alternatives will appear. Or maybe changes in the air superiority balance will happen with HotS; for instance, it's ridiculous that there is no Zerg air caster unit (and no, Corruptors are not a real caster unit - they don't even have energy).
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I've actually been wondering, would it be a better idea to change Khaydarin Amulet to only give a 25 energy bonus to High Templar that are NOT warped in? This would allow protoss to get their High Templar with enough energy to storm by building them from a Gateway, it might give some incentive to switch between Gateway and Warp Gate at some points in the game, and at the same time fixes the problem of High Templars storming directly when they are warped in.
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It's stupid because then I'll just warp Ht in base and wait for thème to get 75 energy - ie. Wait 44s - ie. The build time of a HT. So after 45 s i have a Ht rdy to storm in my base. What's the point of your upgrade?
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On March 18 2011 09:15 Barty wrote:
It's stupid because then I'll just warp Ht in base and wait for thème to get 75 energy - ie. Wait 44s - ie. The build time of a HT. So after 45 s i have a Ht rdy to storm in my base. What's the point of your upgrade?
Build time of high templar could be reduced. Right now the build time is irrelevant anyway as they are only being warped in.
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Okay so I didn't have time to read all 20+ pages of this, but from what I did read, a lot of people are missing the point of the HT nerf in my opinion.
To me, the issue with taking away the amulet is that HTs will be losing mobility. My lategame usually involves cutting Colossus production entirely and switching into a very Chargelot/HT -centric force. I abuse the mobility of the amulet warp-in storms as well as small Zealot harasses all over the place. Without the amulet, I can no longer do that, and will have to go back to the big death ball style (which I kind of hate a lot) and rely on Colossi to deal with the nearly-comparable strength of an MMM Viking ball without being able to match their mobility.
To me, HTs are probably the least mobile unit in the Protoss arsenal until you get the amulet, at which point they become highly mobile units, and I try to abuse that mobility in my lategame. If you ask me, the HT nerf is way worse than anything else they could have done. I'd even prefer them just straight up nerfing the Storm damage (although to be frank, I feel like in PvT the answer is for the Terran player to maybe try making not only marines) so that I can at least keep my Templar mobile...
My fear is that Protoss mobility is getting slowly nerfed, bit by bit, and we're becoming limited ever further into the "I have a 200/200 army and I hope it doesn't die" play style. Blink Stalkers can be great; Phoenixes can be great; unfortunately, all of that can be dealt with fairly easily it seems. Protoss tier 3 has basically no mobility to it without amulet, and that makes me worried for the future of Protoss lategame tactics.
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On March 18 2011 09:07 DizzyDrone wrote:
I've actually been wondering, would it be a better idea to change Khaydarin Amulet to only give a 25 energy bonus to High Templar that are NOT warped in? This would allow protoss to get their High Templar with enough energy to storm by building them from a Gateway, it might give some incentive to switch between Gateway and Warp Gate at some points in the game, and at the same time fixes the problem of High Templars storming directly when they are warped in.
who exactly has the ability to constantly switch between warpgates and gateways? that is absurd. regardless, even with a +25 energy bonus for gateways only, it would still be faster to warp in a high templar and wait for it to get 75 energy than it would be to build it. for example, if you warp it in and wait 20 secs (or whatever it is), you will have 75 energy for a total of like 20-25 secs; whereas if you build it from scratch, it will take 45-50 secs (i dont know exact numbers). so basically you are saying they should put in an upgrade that no reasonable person would ever get.
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I like the new changes in the op. Good job blizz ;D
I'd like it if they made hallucinated obs have detection. It would allow protoss to get away from colossus and actually open into stargate tech or templar.
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how about removing warpgate? won't this solve 4gate and KA complaints?
Poll: Remove Warpgate?No (78) 53% Yes (70) 47% 148 total votes Your vote: Remove Warpgate? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
i know its a huge change and probably will never happen but just wondering if others might see this as a solution.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 19 2011 08:40 jinorazi wrote:how about removing warpgate? won't this solve 4gate and KA complaints? Poll: Remove Warpgate?No (78) 53% Yes (70) 47% 148 total votes Your vote: Remove Warpgate? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
i know its a huge change and probably will never happen but just wondering if others might see this as a solution.
remove the most interesting thing about the protoss race for a balance fix? this is a no vote.
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On March 19 2011 08:42 dAPhREAk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 19 2011 08:40 jinorazi wrote:how about removing warpgate? won't this solve 4gate and KA complaints? Poll: Remove Warpgate?No (78) 53% Yes (70) 47% 148 total votes Your vote: Remove Warpgate? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
i know its a huge change and probably will never happen but just wondering if others might see this as a solution. remove the most interesting thing about the protoss race for a balance fix? this is a no vote.
i think it's be cool if it allowed them to warp units in immediately after they were made from gateways, IE: you research warp gates and if you rally point to pylon power it warps the unit there when it's done from a gateway. just removing the warp gate building but not the upgrade. this would also allow someone who has control of the area around gateways to control the flow of units, as they would be vulnerable at both ends of the warp.
and sigh at then removing the projectile ( the minor aspect of the fungal nerf ) and kept the ubernerfed duration. not much you can do in 2.2 seconds real time.
EDIT:
still want a +25 energy upgrade for sentries though. Protoss deserves that, and it would make guardian shield a lot more used if you could warp in +2 armor vs ranged for your units/drops
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@jinorazi, i'm guessing you don't play protoss, do you? i'm sorry, but this is a bad idea on SOO many levels. the only way to keep toss competitive in the early game without warpgate would be to buff gateway units beyond belief, and zergs already complain about the protoss deathball enough...
just... no.
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On March 19 2011 08:40 jinorazi wrote:how about removing warpgate? won't this solve 4gate and KA complaints? Poll: Remove Warpgate?No (78) 53% Yes (70) 47% 148 total votes Your vote: Remove Warpgate? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
i know its a huge change and probably will never happen but just wondering if others might see this as a solution.
I don't really know how to respond to this. It's just such a bad idea for so many different reasons.
For one, it would remove lots of mechanics that makes Protoss unique. It would also destroy just about the entire Protoss arsenal of strong tactics. It would make Warp Prisms almost useless. It would destroy the entire strength of mobility that Protoss possesses. I could go on and on. Just... no.
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as a protoss player I don't like that emp only removes 100 energy...it made it cool when a ht and a ghost had feedback and emp battles
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On March 19 2011 08:55 VarpuliS wrote:
@jinorazi, i'm guessing you don't play protoss, do you? i'm sorry, but this is a bad idea on SOO many levels. the only way to keep toss competitive in the early game without warpgate would be to buff gateway units beyond belief, and zergs already complain about the protoss deathball enough...
just... no.
only issue i see is mobility, or rather, fast reinforcements where there is power.
as for the units, why would it be different? if the the production time is the same as warp-cooldown+warp-in i dont see other problems.
warp prism and what not is a separate issue. the warp field could easily replaced by shield battery, which i wouldn't mind.
i know this won't happen because warpgate is "so cool" but other than not being able to warp units anywhere, there's no other issue i can think of. perhaps you can share some of your thoughts on how it can ruin the game.
this is just a "what if" i threw out, nothing serious because i know it'll never happen.
and protoss is my best race...what does this have to do anything lol
it is a huge change, a unique feature of protoss for sc2. i think it can solve some balance issues if removed.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 16 2011 14:52 Fwiffo wrote:
I agree with posters like HolyArrow - removing upgrades or erring on nerfs makes the game more simplistic and less enjoyable. Blizzard needs more lateral thinking when it's trying to address balance. They have the PTR implemented, they should use it to it's full ability to explore solutions.
An idea. Instead of removing the KA, how about prevent production of HTs from Warp Gates (with Warp-In) and rather can only be produced from Gateways (old style). This is substantial and should be accompanied with a reversion of Immortals built back at the Gateway (w/ Twilight Council), and likewise cannot be Warped-In. For those who complain about Protoss macro being easy, this should add a little extra complexity (forcing a mix of Gateways and Warp Gates), while keeping KA. The Immortal move (reversion) allows Toss the flexibility to respond to early mass Roaches and Marauders.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 17 2011 07:36 Fwiffo wrote:
Ahem, hold on there Dr. Phil, my suggestion was to restrict HTs to build only from Gateways (and not Warp Gates) to remove Warp-In Storms and keep KA, NOT to remove Warp Gates. WGs are a great step forward from BW. To suggest their removal is like asking to remove Larva Inject and Reactors.
Plus (as I already posted) I'd like to see a reversion of Immortals being built back at the Gateway (w/ Twilight Council and no Warp-In either) to compensate for early mass armored enemy builds while at the same time increase the complexity of Toss macro by requiring to mix up Gateways and Warp Gates.
@jinorazi et al (and others) it'd be nice if you guys would quote or reference my original post/suggestion rather than co-opt it to suggest a major nerf. Warp Gates have become so integral to the Protoss strategy/tactics and balance, to remove them now, even IF it was warranted, would represent such a fundamental change it would revert this game to PRE-Alpha! That you got as many respondents as you did in support of this is quite honestly shocking. And although I love to Theory-Craft, this latest example makes it blatantly clear the wisdom of why it's frowned upon.
But I can't help myself. So, in defense of my original suggestion, restricting the HTs to be built only at Gateways (and not Warp Gates) would not represent too drastic a change. I've consigned myself that Blizzard will remove KA to prevent Warp-In Storms, so I present this as more of a 'tweak' to achieve the same thing while keeping KA. To go from this to suggesting to take out Warp Gates is mind boggling and lays bare that many people have no care for balance or fairness in the game.
The idea of moving the Immortal BACK to Gateways (and not Warp Gates for no Warp-Ins as well) also isn't major since that's how it was for much of Beta (and therefore tested). The reason why this was changed was b/c Dustin Browder felt that the Gateway/Warp Gate Tree had too many units it. It had nothing to do with balance. I'm suggesting a reversion to address Protoss difficulties in handling mass Marauder and Roach plays without upsetting things too much. Other benefits of doing so would be to indirectly discourage Colossi builds by encouraging Twilight Council and Immortal builds at the Gateway (instead of the Robotics Facility). Further, by mixing up Gateways and Warpgates, you're increasing the complexity of Protoss macro a bit to add a little more depth to the game, as I see it.
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GSL Spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +MC said he wanted to show Protoss was still strong even though it's being nerfed with the next patch, but MC didn't really use anything that's being nerfed if the OP is correct. All the talk about the Khaydarin Amulet I've heard seems to indicate it may have been overpowered, but it was underused anyways in favor of Collosus. So I don't really get MC's comments as he never used high templars.
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On March 19 2011 18:34 BlackMagister wrote:GSL Spoiler + Show Spoiler +MC said he wanted to show Protoss was still strong even though it's being nerfed with the next patch, but MC didn't really use anything that's being nerfed if the OP is correct. All the talk about the Khaydarin Amulet I've heard seems to indicate it may have been overpowered, but it was underused anyways in favor of Collosus. So I don't really get MC's comments as he never used high templars.
GSL Spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +
I think MC's point was that the thing being nerfed isn't even needed for Protoss to roll face. Thus, if you don't use the thing being nerfed to win games convincingly, the nerf is completely irrelevant, and Protoss is still strong.
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On March 19 2011 18:37 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 18:34 BlackMagister wrote:GSL Spoiler + Show Spoiler +MC said he wanted to show Protoss was still strong even though it's being nerfed with the next patch, but MC didn't really use anything that's being nerfed if the OP is correct. All the talk about the Khaydarin Amulet I've heard seems to indicate it may have been overpowered, but it was underused anyways in favor of Collosus. So I don't really get MC's comments as he never used high templars. GSL Spoiler + Show Spoiler +
I think MC's point was that the thing being nerfed isn't even needed for Protoss to roll face. Thus, if you don't use the thing being nerfed to win games convincingly, the nerf is completely irrelevant, and Protoss is still strong.
+ Show Spoiler +I think his point was that he's so fucking awesome, he doesn't even NEED to use units considered imba
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On March 19 2011 18:34 BlackMagister wrote:GSL Spoiler + Show Spoiler +MC said he wanted to show Protoss was still strong even though it's being nerfed with the next patch, but MC didn't really use anything that's being nerfed if the OP is correct. All the talk about the Khaydarin Amulet I've heard seems to indicate it may have been overpowered, but it was underused anyways in favor of Collosus. So I don't really get MC's comments as he never used high templars.
You answered your own question in your post.
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On March 19 2011 18:34 BlackMagister wrote:GSL Spoiler + Show Spoiler +MC said he wanted to show Protoss was still strong even though it's being nerfed with the next patch, but MC didn't really use anything that's being nerfed if the OP is correct. All the talk about the Khaydarin Amulet I've heard seems to indicate it may have been overpowered, but it was underused anyways in favor of Collosus. So I don't really get MC's comments as he never used high templars.
I think he was talking about the vortex nerf...no more toilet
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(3900 Masters T)
I was just thinking about the Ghost EMP nerf
This totally changes the HT/Ghost wars
Say you have 1 HT vs 1 Ghost, both at 200 energy. HT has the potential to remove energy and kill the ghost (feedback does damage), whereas EMP can only remove 100 HT energy, and the HT still can feedback the ghost (or even storm). So the only viable option is to either have two ghosts use two emps on ONE HT (waste of energy), or have two Ghosts snipe the HT simultaneously (if you only have 1 ghost, the delay is enough for the HT to feedback). So this means that in Ghost/HT wars, you will need at least two ghosts for every HT (at least in the first engagement). Hope Blizzard took that into account!!!
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On March 20 2011 00:25 Moki.tv wrote:
(3900 Masters T)
I was just thinking about the Ghost EMP nerf
This totally changes the HT/Ghost wars
Say you have 1 HT vs 1 Ghost, both at 200 energy. HT has the potential to remove energy and kill the ghost (feedback does damage), whereas EMP can only remove 100 HT energy, and the HT still can feedback the ghost (or even storm). So the only viable option is to either have two ghosts use two emps on ONE HT (waste of energy), or have two Ghosts snipe the HT simultaneously (if you only have 1 ghost, the delay is enough for the HT to feedback). So this means that in Ghost/HT wars, you will need at least two ghosts for every HT (at least in the first engagement). Hope Blizzard took that into account!!!
Really? Templars will receive a major nerf, and ghosts a minor one. And you are worried that this will make HTs too powerfull? Is that what you are saying?
Really?
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On March 20 2011 00:25 Moki.tv wrote:
(3900 Masters T)
I was just thinking about the Ghost EMP nerf
This totally changes the HT/Ghost wars
Say you have 1 HT vs 1 Ghost, both at 200 energy. HT has the potential to remove energy and kill the ghost (feedback does damage), whereas EMP can only remove 100 HT energy, and the HT still can feedback the ghost (or even storm). So the only viable option is to either have two ghosts use two emps on ONE HT (waste of energy), or have two Ghosts snipe the HT simultaneously (if you only have 1 ghost, the delay is enough for the HT to feedback). So this means that in Ghost/HT wars, you will need at least two ghosts for every HT (at least in the first engagement). Hope Blizzard took that into account!!!
Oh no it looks like there's a chance a 200 energy HT might be able to storm in an engagement. Clearly something is wrong with this.
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On March 19 2011 08:40 jinorazi wrote:how about removing warpgate? won't this solve 4gate and KA complaints? Poll: Remove Warpgate?No (78) 53% Yes (70) 47% 148 total votes Your vote: Remove Warpgate? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
i know its a huge change and probably will never happen but just wondering if others might see this as a solution.
It would require some major tweaking but the warp gate is definitely a terrible mechanic. Protoss would be a much better (as in gameplay-wise) race without it.
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If they removed warpgate then they could remove the mega-retarded high-ground-vision advantage and go back to the BW 50% hit advantage.
Jus' sayin.
(Don't really agree with removing them overall btw...)
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For the people on the PTR, have you seen a decline in templar play? Are protoss players being more colossus centric (as expected) or is it just really hard to gauge?
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On March 20 2011 00:25 Moki.tv wrote:
(3900 Masters T)
I was just thinking about the Ghost EMP nerf
This totally changes the HT/Ghost wars
Say you have 1 HT vs 1 Ghost, both at 200 energy. HT has the potential to remove energy and kill the ghost (feedback does damage), whereas EMP can only remove 100 HT energy, and the HT still can feedback the ghost (or even storm). So the only viable option is to either have two ghosts use two emps on ONE HT (waste of energy), or have two Ghosts snipe the HT simultaneously (if you only have 1 ghost, the delay is enough for the HT to feedback). So this means that in Ghost/HT wars, you will need at least two ghosts for every HT (at least in the first engagement). Hope Blizzard took that into account!!!
How high are you?
User was warned for this post
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On March 20 2011 01:48 junemermaid wrote:
For the people on the PTR, have you seen a decline in templar play? Are protoss players being more colossus centric (as expected) or is it just really hard to gauge?
Well obviously it is going to be Colossus Centric. The double forge Templar build relied heavily on warp-in Templar, let alone Templars that have to wait 40seconds to Storm, even then sometimes you were living on the edge of things. This might kill DT opening builds too since those builds relied switching to Templar tech after doing some harass.
They will get used in someway, but there will be a lot less of them. With warp-in templar builds you survived off Zealot/Templar, it wasn't uncommon to warp-in a good 30+ Templars in one game, but you were more careless with them however, you will never see that again though.
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On March 19 2011 08:40 jinorazi wrote:how about removing warpgate? won't this solve 4gate and KA complaints? Poll: Remove Warpgate?No (78) 53% Yes (70) 47% 148 total votes Your vote: Remove Warpgate? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
i know its a huge change and probably will never happen but just wondering if others might see this as a solution.
What do you think people are gonna vote after watching the gsl final, really?
Terrible poll
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On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it".
the emp can still do 1000 damage instantly and it "only" draws 100 energy.. you need to save up energy a lot to have at least 1 forcefield left when you get emped. compared to the storm nerf this is a very small change.
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I mentioned this in a previous thread, but I think warpgates should have a greater cooldown the farther the unit is warped from the warpgate
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Funny thing about protoss is, that we haven't really gotten any significant buffs since SC2 was released. Except hallucinate and phoenix things, it has been one nerf after another (unless I remember wrong).
What changed? Maps.
Somehow, some way, the bigger map sizes apparently favors protoss. That, or protoss players are just ahead in the current metagame. This is one of the reasons why I personally was not in favor of community-made maps. They change game balance in ways people can't predict. IF the new maps are protoss favoured and it's not the metagame thing.
Things like warpgates and forcefields haven't really changed since release. Scratch that, warp gates have been nerfed at least once. Now they are taking the templar amulets away. And people want to remove warp gates and forcefields?
How about you take the warpgates, forcefields, templars, colossus, void rays, dark templars and all other imbalanced stuff from protoss and maybe then game will finally be balanced when we can no longer abuse you.
Well, since protoss didn't recieve any significant buffs since release (I mean, phoenix and hallucinate buffs haven't exacly been game breakers), all I can deduce is that either maps broke balance or protoss players finally learned to play.
The last option seems very ironic considering that the general opinion has been that protoss is "the easiest race to learn/play".
Either way, you guys are getting the protoss nerfs you seem to want, the amulet is being removed. How about we all just sit back and see how things go before suggesting new nerfs to things like warp gates or forcefields.
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On March 20 2011 02:03 Moki.tv wrote:
I mentioned this in a previous thread, but I think warpgates should have a greater cooldown the farther the unit is warped from the warpgate
hard to implement and bad lategame.
said it often will say it agai:
normal warpgate research now only allows pylon warpins in X radius around a nexus(~sensor tower range). warp prisms work normal.
a later additional warpgate tech allows full map pylon warpins like we have now.
weakens cheesy/allin builds evryone hates to see and play against. doesnt affect warpgates production and defensive power at all.rushdistance now matters for P too making mapdesign way easier and removing a lot of randomness in the game.
imho the perfect solution. rushdistance SHOULD matter for P like evryone else. all the rush builds are still possible on close positions just way weaker on far away positions like it should be. nothing changes for the P when defending/just macroing.
/edit@greentellon
infact P players did learn how to play very late. when you look at the early days of gsl like evry P is trying to do a random one base allin(and often very unrefined ones). that was the P playstyle back then.
now P players not only have way more refined one base plays,they also finally know how to expand safely in all matchups and finally recognized their mid/lategame power.
the P play evolved worlds in the last ~3-4 months and is finally exploring more and more of their full strength.
also ofc the big maps take out quite some of the positional randomness and overall are great for a P . XvP on a big map the P has all options since they can mostly ignore the rushdistance while the other races are semi gambling to not get a build order loss(P expands, cant be punished cause of rushdistance. X expands, P can do his usual allin to break it like on any other map).
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On March 20 2011 00:40 Gigaudas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 08:40 jinorazi wrote:how about removing warpgate? won't this solve 4gate and KA complaints? Poll: Remove Warpgate?No (78) 53% Yes (70) 47% 148 total votes Your vote: Remove Warpgate? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
i know its a huge change and probably will never happen but just wondering if others might see this as a solution. It would require some major tweaking but the warp gate is definitely a terrible mechanic. Protoss would be a much better (as in gameplay-wise) race without it.
Its because there is no reason not to warp gate that there is a problem I don't seee why there isn't a choice involved. Gateways should have lower cooldown or an upgrade to lower the cooldowns and an upgrade for warpgate that keeps higher cooldowns but allows warps accross the map so that there is actually a choice in the game a player would have to make solves all problems couldn't reload your 4-6 gate so fast if you went warpgate and if you went low cooldown upgraded gateways you have to rally up them all so travel time makes it fairer.
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On March 20 2011 02:25 Greentellon wrote:
Well, since protoss didn't recieve any significant buffs since release (I mean, phoenix and hallucinate buffs haven't exacly been game breakers), all I can deduce is that either maps broke balance or protoss players finally learned to play.
If we assume that the changes to maps are genuinely behind the protoss surge, then I think you could look at this the other way. Rather than saying that maps broke balance, perhaps maps merely revealed imbalance that already existed, but went unnoticed because pro-level games did't reach the lategame often enough for us to notice.
Rather than opposing the use of larger community-made maps, I think we should be grateful that we now have them, so that the game can be balanced, over time, with them in mind.
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On March 19 2011 08:40 jinorazi wrote:how about removing warpgate? won't this solve 4gate and KA complaints? Poll: Remove Warpgate?No (78) 53% Yes (70) 47% 148 total votes Your vote: Remove Warpgate? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
i know its a huge change and probably will never happen but just wondering if others might see this as a solution.
Rofl they should never remove warpgates -- but -- they should change warpgates so that they can only warp-in things in an circular area with a radius similar to the sensor tower. Warp prisms would still be able to warp in everywhere, but their price would increase.
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On March 20 2011 02:03 Moki.tv wrote:
I mentioned this in a previous thread, but I think warpgates should have a greater cooldown the farther the unit is warped from the warpgate
I'm sure there are a few ideas out there to fix this. Personally I think if gateways produced faster then warpgates more people would produce out of gateways rather then just warp gates. Warpgate would still be a great tool to reinforce in engagements, but gateways will give a sense of a defensive advantage, allowing you to build up units faster. Would add another dimension to Protoss, gateway units could use a buff.
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If they made warp-in time proximity based on the pylons position to a Nexus that would reduce the effectiveness of the reinforcement of forward pylons but not remove the possibility.
The further away you are from the nexi the longer a warpin will take. Basically you could calculate it to be compared to how long it would take to run from a nexus (closest to warpin position) to the actual pylon your warping in on.
This makes the the Warpgate a great defensive tool still and also increases productionrate of good macro players, but it will reduce the strength of the reinforcement potential during rushes.
You could even use the Warp-prism to have a much smaller warp-in area but leave it as it is (time to warp in that is), thus making the harassment tool still viable, but you can't warp in a whole army and you need the tech to actually use it.
Thoughts?
*Edit* just read others have similar suggestions. I think using the nexus as the proximity based structure is better for the sake of the defensive capabilities. There should still be some reason to get the upgrade besides using warp-prism (using my example..)
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Protoss is mathematically stronger Late game
say you have both T and P has 200/200 armies.
P can instantly reinforce, T must train the units => P will always be 1 production cycle ahead
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yeah so what P has to do to win against is simple, just get a stalemate fight - everyone's dead - then you rebuild instantly and you win. So P wins every single late game PvZ simply because he has warpgates.
/irony..
Come talk about it after your "production cycle" gets owned by cost effecient marauders/roaches
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On March 20 2011 04:00 Kyuki wrote:
If they made warp-in time proximity based on the pylons position to a Nexus that would reduce the effectiveness of the reinforcement of forward pylons but not remove the possibility.
The further away you are from the nexi the longer a warpin will take. Basically you could calculate it to be compared to how long it would take to run from a nexus (closest to warpin position) to the actual pylon your warping in on.
This makes the the Warpgate a great defensive tool still and also increases productionrate of good macro players, but it will reduce the strength of the reinforcement potential during rushes.
You could even use the Warp-prism to have a much smaller warp-in area but leave it as it is (time to warp in that is), thus making the harassment tool still viable, but you can't warp in a whole army and you need the tech to actually use it.
Thoughts?
*Edit* just read others have similar suggestions. I think using the nexus as the proximity based structure is better for the sake of the defensive capabilities. There should still be some reason to get the upgrade besides using warp-prism (using my example..)
I like the way you think but protoss is already very strong defensively due to warpgate mechanics and chrono boost. I like your idea but I feel as if their defensive capabilities would be too strong and yes it would be a nice change to make warp prisms more viable.. I personally think warp prisms need a slight shield boost while not landed
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On March 20 2011 04:00 Kyuki wrote:
If they made warp-in time proximity based on the pylons position to a Nexus that would reduce the effectiveness of the reinforcement of forward pylons but not remove the possibility.
The further away you are from the nexi the longer a warpin will take. Basically you could calculate it to be compared to how long it would take to run from a nexus (closest to warpin position) to the actual pylon your warping in on.
This makes the the Warpgate a great defensive tool still and also increases productionrate of good macro players, but it will reduce the strength of the reinforcement potential during rushes.
You could even use the Warp-prism to have a much smaller warp-in area but leave it as it is (time to warp in that is), thus making the harassment tool still viable, but you can't warp in a whole army and you need the tech to actually use it.
Thoughts?
*Edit* just read others have similar suggestions. I think using the nexus as the proximity based structure is better for the sake of the defensive capabilities. There should still be some reason to get the upgrade besides using warp-prism (using my example..)
Yea I've been thinking about this idea for a while.
Blizzard should give it a shot imo.
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On March 13 2011 00:52 JohnQPublic wrote:
Zergs have been complaining about balance for the last 6 months and nothing has been done to give zergs even a little bit of hope.
Just quit this game now, seriously. Tired of all this Zerg QQ.
TANKS receieved a significant nerf, huge HUGE buff for TvZ against Zerg.
ROACHES recieved 1 extra range, MASSIVE buff.
AMULET is getting removed. Not gamechanging PvZ but still a nice buff.
ZEALOTS have a 5 second increased build time so P can't rush Z as easily, nice buff to Z
REAPERS were nerfed out of existance, you no longer have to worry about them, period.
PROXY RAX were nerfed out of existance, you no longer have to worry about as many T openings
INFESTOR is getting double damage against armored.
Are we done with the whining yet? This isn't taking into effect that Zerg has still been doing just fine the whole time (GSL wins 1 and 2, Idra having great results on the foreign scene regardless). If you STILL have a problem with the state of the game through blizzards balancing after these INSANE Zerg buffs throughout these 6 months of SC2, either switch races or quit, you have no idea the state of Zerg when the game was first released.
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Cool I think this is a good fix for the various changes.
Hope this goes live soon.
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On March 21 2011 01:22 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 00:52 JohnQPublic wrote:
Zergs have been complaining about balance for the last 6 months and nothing has been done to give zergs even a little bit of hope.
Just quit this game now, seriously. Tired of all this Zerg QQ. TANKS receieved a significant nerf, huge HUGE buff for TvZ against Zerg. ROACHES recieved 1 extra range, MASSIVE buff. AMULET is getting removed. Not gamechanging PvZ but still a nice buff. ZEALOTS have a 5 second increased build time so P can't rush Z as easily, nice buff to Z REAPERS were nerfed out of existance, you no longer have to worry about them, period. PROXY RAX were nerfed out of existance, you no longer have to worry about as many T openings INFESTOR is getting double damage against armored. Are we done with the whining yet? This isn't taking into effect that Zerg has still been doing just fine the whole time (GSL wins 1 and 2, Idra having great results on the foreign scene regardless). If you STILL have a problem with the state of the game through blizzards balancing after these INSANE Zerg buffs throughout these 6 months of SC2, either switch races or quit, you have no idea the state of Zerg when the game was first released.
Don't forget the HP buff to zerg structures that makes the hatchery just as durable as a CC and the spire had its health almost doubled, making it much harder to snipe.
Also, note the pros that switched to zerg (TLO, morrow, etc., even boxer said he may switch to zerg)
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On March 21 2011 01:22 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 00:52 JohnQPublic wrote:
Zergs have been complaining about balance for the last 6 months and nothing has been done to give zergs even a little bit of hope.
Just quit this game now, seriously. Tired of all this Zerg QQ. TANKS receieved a significant nerf, huge HUGE buff for TvZ against Zerg. ROACHES recieved 1 extra range, MASSIVE buff. AMULET is getting removed. Not gamechanging PvZ but still a nice buff. ZEALOTS have a 5 second increased build time so P can't rush Z as easily, nice buff to Z REAPERS were nerfed out of existance, you no longer have to worry about them, period. PROXY RAX were nerfed out of existance, you no longer have to worry about as many T openings INFESTOR is getting double damage against armored. Are we done with the whining yet? This isn't taking into effect that Zerg has still been doing just fine the whole time (GSL wins 1 and 2, Idra having great results on the foreign scene regardless). If you STILL have a problem with the state of the game through blizzards balancing after these INSANE Zerg buffs throughout these 6 months of SC2, either switch races or quit, you have no idea the state of Zerg when the game was first released.
I agree with this guy 100%. I'm sick of the zerg QQ. Things to add:
CREEP from the overlords is much bigger now. Always nice.
MAPS are much bigger now. This is awesome for zerg. Even lost temple is fixed...
STIM nerfed with this patch (30 seconds is huge!)
BUNKER nerfed with this patch
MEDIVACS nerfed (-Acceleration reduced from 2.315 to 2.25. -Speed reduced from 2.75 to 2.5.)
BATTLECRUISER nerfed Ground damage decreased from 10 to 8.
ZERG BUILDINGS buffed: they got much more health now!
Zergs will always whine, whatever blizzard does for them. I laugh when I read that morrow his best matchup is ZvT and that he somethimes thinks zerg is too strong in the matchup (read: imbalanced). Souce: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202936
Morrow: But then again my Zerg vs Terran is very confident right now. some parts of me thinks it's imbalanced as well on these bigger macro maps too xD.
Morrow switched from terran to zerg, with success. Can you please give me 1 zerg who switched to terran, with success?
I'm not complaining about the zerg race, I'm complaining about the never ending zerg QQ. Yes, TvZ was imbalanced....5 months ago. Move on!
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well if the templar are going to nerfed into ablivion and especially on these current big maps in the pool i really want to see a few changes that blizzard has made in the past undone.
namely
1... zealot build time decreased out of gateways (i think originally it was increased by 5 seconds)-
(mainly because the map distances are so far apart, has anyone noticed the overly unusual number of zergs going for a 6 pool on these large 4 player maps and hoping they guess where you are? and you are lucky to scout the base by the time the zerglings are at your own base)?
2 i want thors to have energy back- if i go templar tech and he goes thors if i can't insta storm i should at least be able to feed back the thor
3... when my templar actually get energy to storm i want the radius and damage increased back the way it used to before it was nerfed sometime in beta
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On March 21 2011 05:54 Allred wrote:
well if the templar are going to nerfed into ablivion and especially on these current big maps in the pool i really want to see a few changes that blizzard has made in the past undone.
namely
1... zealot build time decreased out of gateways (i think originally it was increased by 5 seconds)-
(mainly because the map distances are so far apart, has anyone noticed the overly unusual number of zergs going for a 6 pool on these large 4 player maps and hoping they guess where you are? and you are lucky to scout the base by the time the zerglings are at your own base)?
2 i want thors to have energy back- if i go templar tech and he goes thors if i can't insta storm i should at least be able to feed back the thor
3... when my templar actually get energy to storm i want the radius and damage increased back the way it used to before it was nerfed sometime in beta
And there is 0 you will get from this. Why not? Because protoss is VERY strong lategame atm.
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On March 20 2011 04:01 Moki.tv wrote:
Protoss is mathematically stronger Late game
say you have both T and P has 200/200 armies.
P can instantly reinforce, T must train the units => P will always be 1 production cycle ahead
I see this as a very big problem. SC2 games shouldn't ever be only about one clash. Because if protoss wins one big battle its also gonna win the game because of instant reinforcements while terran is waiting for units to build.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 21 2011 01:22 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 00:52 JohnQPublic wrote:
Zergs have been complaining about balance for the last 6 months and nothing has been done to give zergs even a little bit of hope.
Just quit this game now, seriously. Tired of all this Zerg QQ. TANKS receieved a significant nerf, huge HUGE buff for TvZ against Zerg. ROACHES recieved 1 extra range, MASSIVE buff. AMULET is getting removed. Not gamechanging PvZ but still a nice buff. ZEALOTS have a 5 second increased build time so P can't rush Z as easily, nice buff to Z REAPERS were nerfed out of existance, you no longer have to worry about them, period. PROXY RAX were nerfed out of existance, you no longer have to worry about as many T openings INFESTOR is getting double damage against armored. Are we done with the whining yet? This isn't taking into effect that Zerg has still been doing just fine the whole time (GSL wins 1 and 2, Idra having great results on the foreign scene regardless). If you STILL have a problem with the state of the game through blizzards balancing after these INSANE Zerg buffs throughout these 6 months of SC2, either switch races or quit, you have no idea the state of Zerg when the game was first released.
TANKS receieved a significant nerf, huge HUGE buff for TvZ against Zerg.
True. Even though these are still the most powerful mid tier ground unit in the game (arguably the most powerful mid tier unit and late game ground unit). The change to the tank helped a lot.
ROACHES recieved 1 extra range, MASSIVE buff.
True. +1 range on roaches made them playable instead of useless. But these units are still really bad against Terran.
AMULET is getting removed. Not gamechanging PvZ but still a nice buff.
This is mainly a buff to T, it changes things slightly for Z but ht weren't the prob, Colo are and htis promotes colossi play.
ZEALOTS have a 5 second increased build time so P can't rush Z as easily, nice buff to Z
Zealot build time was originally 28/38 secs and they changed it to 23/33 for a short time. It didn't do what it was supposed to do so it was reverted, I would hardly call this a buff... more like a reversion
REAPERS were nerfed out of existance, you no longer have to worry about them, period.
It sucks what happened to reapers, the unit was awesome and still has a chance to be awesome but the words too good came to mind. I would like to see this unit helped out.
PROXY RAX were nerfed out of existance, you no longer have to worry about as many T openings
I think the general feeling for this game is that zerg (and protoss slightly) feel undeveloped compared to terran, removing proxy rax from the game is not something that I would cry, it was a good change.
INFESTOR is getting double damage against armored.
30% is not double, it does double dps to all units and more than double dps to armored but the stun duration is cut in half. I can't wait to use infestors but I would not call this change a huge buff yet.
In general the loudest voices are going to prevail, which is a shame. Zerg does need changes but I almost feel it is more of a flaw in design than something that is easily overcome. In addition to the loudest voices being the ones that win we also have the people like me who aren't qualified to judge balance. I too am tired of Zerg QQ, especially when biased z's call for things that would make Z overpowered instead of in line with p/t.
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I agree with this guy 100%. I'm sick of the zerg QQ. Things to add: CREEP from the overlords is much bigger now. Always nice. MAPS are much bigger now. This is awesome for zerg. Even lost temple is fixed... STIM nerfed with this patch (30 seconds is huge!) BUNKER nerfed with this patch MEDIVACS nerfed (-Acceleration reduced from 2.315 to 2.25. -Speed reduced from 2.75 to 2.5.) BATTLECRUISER nerfed Ground damage decreased from 10 to 8. ZERG BUILDINGS buffed: they got much more health now! Zergs will always whine, whatever blizzard does for them. I laugh when I read that morrow his best matchup is ZvT and that he somethimes thinks zerg is too strong in the matchup (read: imbalanced). Souce: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202936Morrow: But then again my Zerg vs Terran is very confident right now. some parts of me thinks it's imbalanced as well on these bigger macro maps too xD.Morrow switched from terran to zerg, with success. Can you please give me 1 zerg who switched to terran, with success? I'm not complaining about the zerg race, I'm complaining about the never ending zerg QQ. Yes, TvZ was imbalanced....5 months ago. Move on!
Zerg is not exclusively the only race that was helped, and not the only reason why Blizzard cracked down hard. Can you at least understand why they nerfed/buffed things?
You also act like Z players are the sole/main source of QQ. Do not be hypocritical. Do you remember after the roach buff, the Zs quieted down and P and T players let out a onslaught of QQ? How about the T players QQing about how they never won a GSL and how Z was broken? How you could never stop a 14 hatch and since they couldn't, T auto loses? Yes, zergies do QQ, but don't pretend other races do not, and somehow, that you can say a race QQs more.
Start regarding QQrs as PEOPLE, rather than what RACE they play.
P.S Morrow switched to Zerg because of what Idra said about him.... It's not so far-fetched that he says ZvT is easy because of this.
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On March 21 2011 01:41 101toss wrote:
Don't forget the HP buff to zerg structures that makes the hatchery just as durable as a CC and the spire had its health almost doubled, making it much harder to snipe.
Also, note the pros that switched to zerg (TLO, morrow, etc., even boxer said he may switch to zerg)
Not only is your information on the structures incorrect (spire almost doubled...)
Hatchery life increased from 1250 to 1500.
Lair life increased from 1800 to 2000.
Spawning Pool life increased from 750 to 1000.
Spire life increased from 600 to 850.
Ultralisk Cavern life increased from 600 to 850.
but also you are including TLO who is still random (I think the general consensus is that his T is his best) and Boxer is still T... Morrow is the exception and With 1 person switching to zerg doesn't mean anything, it was highly publicised though.
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On March 21 2011 01:22 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 00:52 JohnQPublic wrote:
Zergs have been complaining about balance for the last 6 months and nothing has been done to give zergs even a little bit of hope.
Just quit this game now, seriously. Tired of all this Zerg QQ. TANKS receieved a significant nerf, huge HUGE buff for TvZ against Zerg. ROACHES recieved 1 extra range, MASSIVE buff. AMULET is getting removed. Not gamechanging PvZ but still a nice buff. ZEALOTS have a 5 second increased build time so P can't rush Z as easily, nice buff to Z REAPERS were nerfed out of existance, you no longer have to worry about them, period. PROXY RAX were nerfed out of existance, you no longer have to worry about as many T openings INFESTOR is getting double damage against armored. Are we done with the whining yet? This isn't taking into effect that Zerg has still been doing just fine the whole time (GSL wins 1 and 2, Idra having great results on the foreign scene regardless). If you STILL have a problem with the state of the game through blizzards balancing after these INSANE Zerg buffs throughout these 6 months of SC2, either switch races or quit, you have no idea the state of Zerg when the game was first released.
The problem isnt that FruitDealer can win GSL, or Nestea. The problem isnt that Idra can do fine in GSL and foreign tournaments. The problem is that there is so LITTLE of zergs. Look how many zergs you have in top 20 in EACH REGION. Look on tournaments. How many zergs are in RO8/16/32. Look at that, and then comeback.
Zergs arent complaining about that u CAN'T pull off a win. Cuz thats a lie, of course u can win. The problem is that u can't be solid with zerg, u are always at back foot.
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On March 21 2011 01:53 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 01:22 Figgy wrote:On March 13 2011 00:52 JohnQPublic wrote:
Zergs have been complaining about balance for the last 6 months and nothing has been done to give zergs even a little bit of hope.
Just quit this game now, seriously. Tired of all this Zerg QQ. TANKS receieved a significant nerf, huge HUGE buff for TvZ against Zerg. ROACHES recieved 1 extra range, MASSIVE buff. AMULET is getting removed. Not gamechanging PvZ but still a nice buff. ZEALOTS have a 5 second increased build time so P can't rush Z as easily, nice buff to Z REAPERS were nerfed out of existance, you no longer have to worry about them, period. PROXY RAX were nerfed out of existance, you no longer have to worry about as many T openings INFESTOR is getting double damage against armored. Are we done with the whining yet? This isn't taking into effect that Zerg has still been doing just fine the whole time (GSL wins 1 and 2, Idra having great results on the foreign scene regardless). If you STILL have a problem with the state of the game through blizzards balancing after these INSANE Zerg buffs throughout these 6 months of SC2, either switch races or quit, you have no idea the state of Zerg when the game was first released. I agree with this guy 100%. I'm sick of the zerg QQ. Things to add: CREEP from the overlords is much bigger now. Always nice. MAPS are much bigger now. This is awesome for zerg. Even lost temple is fixed... STIM nerfed with this patch (30 seconds is huge!) BUNKER nerfed with this patch MEDIVACS nerfed (-Acceleration reduced from 2.315 to 2.25. -Speed reduced from 2.75 to 2.5.) BATTLECRUISER nerfed Ground damage decreased from 10 to 8. ZERG BUILDINGS buffed: they got much more health now! Zergs will always whine, whatever blizzard does for them. I laugh when I read that morrow his best matchup is ZvT and that he somethimes thinks zerg is too strong in the matchup (read: imbalanced). Souce: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202936Morrow: But then again my Zerg vs Terran is very confident right now. some parts of me thinks it's imbalanced as well on these bigger macro maps too xD.Morrow switched from terran to zerg, with success. Can you please give me 1 zerg who switched to terran, with success? I'm not complaining about the zerg race, I'm complaining about the never ending zerg QQ. Yes, TvZ was imbalanced....5 months ago. Move on!
Don't think anyone is really arguing that Zerg is under-powered against Terran. It's more Z v P that seems a little unbalanced atm.
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A change for PvP: Make overlapping pylon fields nullify each other. You cant warp in when the opponents power field overlaps with yours.
Would be hilarious to see some offensive pylons lol.
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669 Posts
On March 20 2011 00:25 Moki.tv wrote:
(3900 Masters T)
I was just thinking about the Ghost EMP nerf
This totally changes the HT/Ghost wars
Say you have 1 HT vs 1 Ghost, both at 200 energy. HT has the potential to remove energy and kill the ghost (feedback does damage), whereas EMP can only remove 100 HT energy, and the HT still can feedback the ghost (or even storm). So the only viable option is to either have two ghosts use two emps on ONE HT (waste of energy), or have two Ghosts snipe the HT simultaneously (if you only have 1 ghost, the delay is enough for the HT to feedback). So this means that in Ghost/HT wars, you will need at least two ghosts for every HT (at least in the first engagement). Hope Blizzard took that into account!!!
On March 20 2011 04:01 Moki.tv wrote:
Protoss is mathematically stronger Late game
say you have both T and P has 200/200 armies.
P can instantly reinforce, T must train the units => P will always be 1 production cycle ahead
Good God , Moki , no offence but you really are bad at math & logic
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On March 21 2011 07:10 Tiax;mous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 00:25 Moki.tv wrote:
(3900 Masters T)
I was just thinking about the Ghost EMP nerf
This totally changes the HT/Ghost wars
Say you have 1 HT vs 1 Ghost, both at 200 energy. HT has the potential to remove energy and kill the ghost (feedback does damage), whereas EMP can only remove 100 HT energy, and the HT still can feedback the ghost (or even storm). So the only viable option is to either have two ghosts use two emps on ONE HT (waste of energy), or have two Ghosts snipe the HT simultaneously (if you only have 1 ghost, the delay is enough for the HT to feedback). So this means that in Ghost/HT wars, you will need at least two ghosts for every HT (at least in the first engagement). Hope Blizzard took that into account!!! Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 04:01 Moki.tv wrote:
Protoss is mathematically stronger Late game
say you have both T and P has 200/200 armies.
P can instantly reinforce, T must train the units => P will always be 1 production cycle ahead Good God , Moki , no offence but you really are bad at math & logic
What math and logic are so bad? He's right in terms of gateway units.
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On March 21 2011 07:10 Tiax;mous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 00:25 Moki.tv wrote:
(3900 Masters T)
I was just thinking about the Ghost EMP nerf
This totally changes the HT/Ghost wars
Say you have 1 HT vs 1 Ghost, both at 200 energy. HT has the potential to remove energy and kill the ghost (feedback does damage), whereas EMP can only remove 100 HT energy, and the HT still can feedback the ghost (or even storm). So the only viable option is to either have two ghosts use two emps on ONE HT (waste of energy), or have two Ghosts snipe the HT simultaneously (if you only have 1 ghost, the delay is enough for the HT to feedback). So this means that in Ghost/HT wars, you will need at least two ghosts for every HT (at least in the first engagement). Hope Blizzard took that into account!!! Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 04:01 Moki.tv wrote:
Protoss is mathematically stronger Late game
say you have both T and P has 200/200 armies.
P can instantly reinforce, T must train the units => P will always be 1 production cycle ahead Good God , Moki , no offence but you really are bad at math & logic
If you dont explain WHY he is bad at those things you are just making a useless post.
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669 Posts
On March 21 2011 07:18 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:10 Tiax;mous wrote:On March 20 2011 00:25 Moki.tv wrote:
(3900 Masters T)
I was just thinking about the Ghost EMP nerf
This totally changes the HT/Ghost wars
Say you have 1 HT vs 1 Ghost, both at 200 energy. HT has the potential to remove energy and kill the ghost (feedback does damage), whereas EMP can only remove 100 HT energy, and the HT still can feedback the ghost (or even storm). So the only viable option is to either have two ghosts use two emps on ONE HT (waste of energy), or have two Ghosts snipe the HT simultaneously (if you only have 1 ghost, the delay is enough for the HT to feedback). So this means that in Ghost/HT wars, you will need at least two ghosts for every HT (at least in the first engagement). Hope Blizzard took that into account!!! On March 20 2011 04:01 Moki.tv wrote:
Protoss is mathematically stronger Late game
say you have both T and P has 200/200 armies.
P can instantly reinforce, T must train the units => P will always be 1 production cycle ahead Good God , Moki , no offence but you really are bad at math & logic What math and logic are so bad? He's right in terms of gateway units.
He's right about +1 cycles , but that doesn't mean anything as toss & terran cycles takes different times and doesn't takes reactors in account and +1 cycle is only true for gateway units and lots of other thing.
So all in all , toss may be stronger in late game but those things doesnt show that Protoss is mathematically stronger late game really
Rabiator - I'm really sorry , I thought I don't need to explain why his "2 Ghosts for 1 HT" logic is wrong. My apologies...
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toss is mathematically stronger late game because of the splash damage from their units. Tanks are similar but marines are a lot weaker to splash than stalkers.
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On March 20 2011 16:32 HyAjO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 04:00 Kyuki wrote:
If they made warp-in time proximity based on the pylons position to a Nexus that would reduce the effectiveness of the reinforcement of forward pylons but not remove the possibility.
The further away you are from the nexi the longer a warpin will take. Basically you could calculate it to be compared to how long it would take to run from a nexus (closest to warpin position) to the actual pylon your warping in on.
This makes the the Warpgate a great defensive tool still and also increases productionrate of good macro players, but it will reduce the strength of the reinforcement potential during rushes.
You could even use the Warp-prism to have a much smaller warp-in area but leave it as it is (time to warp in that is), thus making the harassment tool still viable, but you can't warp in a whole army and you need the tech to actually use it.
Thoughts?
*Edit* just read others have similar suggestions. I think using the nexus as the proximity based structure is better for the sake of the defensive capabilities. There should still be some reason to get the upgrade besides using warp-prism (using my example..) I like the way you think but protoss is already very strong defensively due to warpgate mechanics and chrono boost. I like your idea but I feel as if their defensive capabilities would be too strong and yes it would be a nice change to make warp prisms more viable.. I personally think warp prisms need a slight shield boost while not landed
I think you missunderstood me abit. This wouldnt change anything on how the warp-in would work defensively to how it works right now (as in it wouldnt decrease warp-in time) it would just increase it if you're warp-in location is further away.
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On March 21 2011 07:29 ixi.genocide wrote:
toss is mathematically stronger late game because of the splash damage from their units. Tanks are similar but marines are a lot weaker to splash than stalkers.
Marines also cost less and use less supply. Also Marines do more DPS. I'd like to think that a Unit that Costs alot more is a little better.
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On March 21 2011 07:35 Hobokinz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:29 ixi.genocide wrote:
toss is mathematically stronger late game because of the splash damage from their units. Tanks are similar but marines are a lot weaker to splash than stalkers. Marines also cost less and use less supply. Also Marines do more DPS. I'd like to think that a Unit that Costs alot more is a little better.
I know the marine is extremely powerful, I was saying that Protoss is very good lategame because its aoe damage has more of an effect on marines than tanks have on the protoss units (which is still very effective).
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[Don't think anyone is really arguing that Zerg is under-powered against Terran. It's more Z v P that seems a little unbalanced atm.[/QUOTE]
i think the state of z v p is horrible right now, toss can only win (unless the zerg player horribly screws up) if he
A. 4 gates which just comes down to zerg scouting in time to stop it
B. if he can get a deathball with collosi and void rays
personally i think it is a really boring matchup- at least it terran for the time being you can choose between collosi and templar and but templar vs zerg is a pretty bad choice and you will lose in an even match. i play toss and i still think collosi need to be Nerfed in someway but the gateway units of toss need to be better (but not to much better because then it would screw up 4 gating and make it easier.
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i think the state of z v p is horrible right now, toss can only win (unless the zerg player horribly screws up) if he
A. 4 gates which just comes down to zerg scouting in time to stop it
B. if he can get a deathball with collosi and void rays
personally i think it is a really boring matchup- at least it terran for the time being you can choose between collosi and templar and but templar vs zerg is a pretty bad choice and you will lose in an even match. i play toss and i still think collosi need to be Nerfed in someway but the gateway units of toss need to be better (but not to much better because then it would screw up 4 gating and make it easier.
I don't think you should be allowed to comment on the state of the game if you've never watched pro matches or played above the diamond level.
EDIT: Just in case you don't understand what I mean, I'm implying you should probably go watch some pro matches.The GSL finals would be a good place to start.
EDIT 2: Just in case you don't feel like watching pro matches but insist on posting anyways, MC didn't make a single colossus, only 4gated once, and murdered July 4-1. The one game he made a void ray was the game he lost to a hydra drop timing.
EDIT 3: Just in case you don't feel like applying the above information and using it to modify your understanding of PvZ, it means that gateway units are not underpowered (if ANYTHING, it might be that sentries end up being a bit overpowered, but the jury is still out), templar are not bad versus zerg, and Protoss doesn't need a death ball or 4gate to win.
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Can anyone who's on the PTR client tell me whether Blizz is sticking to their guns with the "no losses shown below masters league" deal?
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Damn, no more Viking Flowers, I was really starting to use them properly, especially in TvT it was so useful to do.
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K so i just read through the first 8 pages of this thread...
Does anyone with experience during the patching of SC:BW have anything to say about blizzard's balancing abilities? I mean obviously it turned out amazing (one of the most well balanced RTS games out there) but how much of that was players adjusting (metagame shifts) and how much of that was blizzard? Because seriously most all these comments seem to be arguing over the EMP vs. Amulet and resulting in bashing on blizzard.
Not even gonna touch balance issues. No room for debate among the millions of strategical geniuses we have here on TL because everyone's own opinion is right and they'll defend it to the grave.
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On March 21 2011 08:34 humanimal wrote:
K so i just read through the first 8 pages of this thread...
Does anyone with experience during the patching of SC:BW have anything to say about blizzard's balancing abilities? I mean obviously it turned out amazing (one of the most well balanced RTS games out there) but how much of that was players adjusting (metagame shifts) and how much of that was blizzard? Because seriously most all these comments seem to be arguing over the EMP vs. Amulet and resulting in bashing on blizzard.
Not even gonna touch balance issues. No room for debate among the millions of strategical geniuses we have here on TL because everyone's own opinion is right and they'll defend it to the grave.
Well, there weren´t that much balancing in SC:BW, at least after the first few patches. The only big change I can think of is what came with Brood War and the buff to Zealots, 60/100 instead of 80/80 that they had earlier.
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I think the EMP nerf was to allow for use of HT in PvT, as Ghosts are now still effective vs protoss but templar and sentries are not affected by them as much later on in the game. Earlier on, EMP would have more of an impact due to units having less energy.
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They really didn't shift much around very often even when it was being patched. They appeared to just let people play and use the tools given to the them to work out the balance, either that or they just didn't care after BW was out for a while. The Blizzard maps sucked. If current Blizzard was patching BW today i'd wager they would change a lot of things, for new players Protoss is certainly easier and they would change it somehow i bet. It's good it wasn't really intentionally balanced for everyone, people thought Terran was weak for ages but eventually strategies were worked out.
However... i don't believe just leaving players to their own devices will work out for SC2. So many people are coming from a BW background armed with many many years of strategies, adapting fast expands, harassment, and new ideas along with re-configurations of old ideas. Strategies are worked out so quickly because there's immediately been some gamers playing 10 hours a day from the beginning, and they spread to everyone else quickly now as well. The metagame shifts rapidly, and i think because of easier mechanics people are gonna work out every possibility (especially for early game) very quickly. So the balance will be easier to tell.
In BW, the reason the metagame kept shifting for many years, even to today infact, is because the skill requirement was so high on things like defilers, arbiters etc. that people knew they would theoretically be useful, but they required so much multitasking it took a long time before people could even use them effectively. In SC2 i'd say not many if any strategies are outside of players reach mechanically, so the game will evolve quicker. Anyway that's why i think SC2 will need to be balanced with a more hands-on approach than BW. The situation is very different now, and BW was very lucky anyway.
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Is it confirmed that the stun duration change of funal also changed the duration of the damage effect?
Also, if they actually remove the amulet I think they should make storm research a bit quicker and maybe make the whole tech path a bit cheaper and more viable
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It's confirmed in SEA. This is the new patch.
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i like that the viking flower or hiding units in general cant happan as easily, but does this mean i cant stack my mutas any more? if so its going to make hunting turrets/cannons much more costly than before. Thors will Lose their effectiveness if they cant splash aoe dmg on a stack of flying units. i feel that this change, effects more than just air units. it changes the way mutas work together. i have not tested this, so if some one has please let me know if you have; thru PM or something if you are still able to stack air units thru regular means not a patrol marker. thanks
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On March 22 2011 06:27 hugman wrote:
Is it confirmed that the stun duration change of funal also changed the duration of the damage effect?
Also, if they actually remove the amulet I think they should make storm research a bit quicker and maybe make the whole tech path a bit cheaper and more viable
naaah
less versatile HTs = make ghosts / infestors / raven more viable = make colossus noob a-move deathball's of death less viable = make HTs more viable.
btw yes, the dps potential of fungal is effectively double, x2.5 versus armoured.
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On March 22 2011 07:41 jdreamer wrote:
It's confirmed in SEA. This is the new patch.
I dont think anyone was arguing that it wasent lol
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On March 22 2011 07:44 Nazarid wrote:
i like that the viking flower or hiding units in general cant happan as easily, but does this mean i cant stack my mutas any more? if so its going to make hunting turrets/cannons much more costly than before. Thors will Lose their effectiveness if they cant splash aoe dmg on a stack of flying units. i feel that this change, effects more than just air units. it changes the way mutas work together. i have not tested this, so if some one has please let me know if you have; thru PM or something if you are still able to stack air units thru regular means not a patrol marker. thanks
it doesn't change anything to do with how they fly together as a group, just preventing the stacking on 1 exact spot using patrol.
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I still don't understand why they keep on trying with the bunkers build time etc. Having them salvaged for free will remain imbalanced towards the other races, it's the main reason it's use might be called abuse and it'll remain so no matter if they add more build time or not
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Well we are going to see much less HT's and a lot more collosi.
I'm sure everyone is stoked about that.
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On March 22 2011 08:01 SirGlinG wrote:
I still don't understand why they keep on trying with the bunkers build time etc. Having them salvaged for free will remain imbalanced towards the other races, it's the main reason it's use might be called abuse and it'll remain so no matter if they add more build time or not
Instead of increasing the build time they should have increased the salvage time, I don't agree that it will never be balanced, but honestly you can salvage it when it's under direct fire in the early game and get away with it.
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Or have it require an SCV to salvage it. So many solutions, but build time hardly seems to matter with the new maps.
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Am I the only one hanging in PTR cuz I don't want to drop out of masters before ladder lock?
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On March 22 2011 11:36 ChThoniC wrote:
Am I the only one hanging in PTR cuz I don't want to drop out of masters before ladder lock?
You'll drop out of masters after the ladder lock if you play during the ladder lock, apparently MMR isn't going to be locked, and you'll get promoted/demoted appropriately when you do your placement match.
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On March 22 2011 11:42 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 11:36 ChThoniC wrote:
Am I the only one hanging in PTR cuz I don't want to drop out of masters before ladder lock? You'll drop out of masters after the ladder lock if you play during the ladder lock, apparently MMR isn't going to be locked, and you'll get promoted/demoted appropriately when you do your placement match.
I just mean for this season.
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On March 22 2011 08:01 SirGlinG wrote:
I still don't understand why they keep on trying with the bunkers build time etc. Having them salvaged for free will remain imbalanced towards the other races, it's the main reason it's use might be called abuse and it'll remain so no matter if they add more build time or not
I think the main reason why they Change(d) the build time, is to nerf bunker rushes in the early game
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On March 22 2011 09:48 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 08:01 SirGlinG wrote:
I still don't understand why they keep on trying with the bunkers build time etc. Having them salvaged for free will remain imbalanced towards the other races, it's the main reason it's use might be called abuse and it'll remain so no matter if they add more build time or not Instead of increasing the build time they should have increased the salvage time, I don't agree that it will never be balanced, but honestly you can salvage it when it's under direct fire in the early game and get away with it.
Yeah, i couldn't agree more. Build time is partly the issue. A bit. But moreso than anything the biggest frustration is the ease of salvaging which makes those attacks almost free.
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On March 22 2011 13:07 gulden wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 08:01 SirGlinG wrote:
I still don't understand why they keep on trying with the bunkers build time etc. Having them salvaged for free will remain imbalanced towards the other races, it's the main reason it's use might be called abuse and it'll remain so no matter if they add more build time or not I think the main reason why they Change(d) the build time, is to nerf bunker rushes in the early game
It's fairly obvious that he knows that. His point is that its not much of a deterent compared to other possible ideas. Most terrans make the bunker away from the hatch so they can leapfrog, and half the time its not spotted either way, so adding the extra time doesnt really change much. Making the bunker cost 100 to lose would however slightly change the thought process behind bunkering especially when you need to make 2 or more.
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Is anyone else getting white and orange boxes instead of fire from terran buildings and their thrusters? Some sort of indie developers stamp on patch 1.3?
Also, I thought it was going to be an added damage with fungal creep to all units as well as more for armored, or did i misread earlier. Too bad they revoked the health buff, they should at least make infestors look cooler when they inevitably die.
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On March 23 2011 01:00 eCakes wrote:
Is anyone else getting white and orange boxes instead of fire from terran buildings and their thrusters? Some sort of indie developers stamp on patch 1.3?
Also, I thought it was going to be an added damage with fungal creep to all units as well as more for armored, or did i misread earlier. Too bad they revoked the health buff, they should at least make infestors look cooler when they inevitably die.
Damage is the same vs light/normal units
DPS is doubled vs light/normal units
Damage is increased 30% vs armored units
DPS is +130% vs armored units
That's the way it's been all along so maybe you misread it =/.
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I think that Collosi should go to Tier 3 (litlle bit more expensive with more shields or HP) and HT to tier 2 and it will be okay.. or maybe? Or we can wait for expansions aahh these patches! ))
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On March 12 2011 22:10 CreepCrepe wrote:
Infestor still nerfed. Cool beans.
fuckin ban this fag lol. i cannot understand how it could possibly be a nerf. its insta cast and it does more dps. isnt that a buff?
On March 22 2011 09:48 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 08:01 SirGlinG wrote:
I still don't understand why they keep on trying with the bunkers build time etc. Having them salvaged for free will remain imbalanced towards the other races, it's the main reason it's use might be called abuse and it'll remain so no matter if they add more build time or not Instead of increasing the build time they should have increased the salvage time, I don't agree that it will never be balanced, but honestly you can salvage it when it's under direct fire in the early game and get away with it.
this is exactly it. it doesnt really matter how long it takes for a bunker to go up if it salvages in 10 seconds and therefor is rarely ever a real investment for the terran. personally, i think salavage should take nearly as long as construction. that would make sense, especially for the 100 dollar you get back.
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ladder and profiles no longer display loses? that's kinda lame.
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On March 23 2011 01:27 BlazedHydra wrote:fuckin ban this fag lol. i cannot understand how it could possibly be a nerf. its insta cast and it does more dps. isnt that a buff?
The loss of stun time is what alot of people are upset about. Most of the time it was why we would use FG, but now it's some weird mix of ensnare and plague. IDK if it's a nerff, butI also dunno if it's a buff.
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Its really buff these 4 seconds are enough to deal with everything + faster dmg.
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can anyone tell me if the observer changes been fixed? (made the new spectators features not take up whole screen)
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Hey Guys,
I have a big problem, i tried to update my SC2 and get this error:
The patch "bnet\Battle.net\i18n\enUS\String\CLIENT_AUTHENTICATION.xml" could not be applied. (MD5 mismatch: expected 0x29D267D6814B83A6B974FA66CCCC84F4, actual 0x6969B8670A5174FF978FD5C16EA668A9.)(PTCApply_BSDiff failed.) If this problem persists, you may be able to solve it by uninstalling and then reinstalling the game. If you are unable to correct this problem, please contact Blizzard Technical Support. (BNUpdate:TCApply)
Has anyone a idea how i can solve that shit?
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On March 23 2011 03:13 DeVo wrote:Hey Guys, I have a big problem, i tried to update my SC2 and get this error: The patch "bnet\Battle.net\i18n\enUS\String\CLIENT_AUTHENTICATION.xml" could not be applied. (MD5 mismatch: expected 0x29D267D6814B83A6B974FA66CCCC84F4, actual 0x6969B8670A5174FF978FD5C16EA668A9.)(PTCApply_BSDiff failed.) If this problem persists, you may be able to solve it by uninstalling and then reinstalling the game. If you are unable to correct this problem, please contact Blizzard Technical Support. (BNUpdate: TCApply) Has anyone a idea how i can solve that shit?
i have the exact same error :c
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Could anyone please tell me exactly which folders of the sc2 client get affected when you update this patch?
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repair fixed the error but now my game loads then shows a dark login and crashes without showing any error message :c
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On March 23 2011 01:27 BlazedHydra wrote:
fuckin ban this fag lol.
Shouldn't we ban you for using such a tough-guy word? Still don't know why so many in our community think it's cool to throw that word around.
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I feel extreme satisfaction with the well-deserved HT nerf and removal of Archon Toilet.
I've also seen a rise in the use of battlecruisers by terrans. Wonder if it's worth trying.
Ironically, one of my lost placement matches in 1v1 featured battlecruisers getting butchered by HT. Now less energy for HT, more speed for BC, wonder what would've happened.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/n4ifk.jpg)
