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Hollis
United States505 Posts
On March 13 2011 03:36 reneg wrote: I disagree. I think that would wreck zvz, and it'd boil it down to 7 pool spine crawler rushing Oh yeah, I always forget that zergs can vs other zergs. Nevertheless, I still think zerg needs something to help in the early game vs T and P, and perhaps more than that as well. | ||
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kNightLite
United States408 Posts
On March 13 2011 06:20 Hollis wrote: Oh yeah, I always forget that zergs can vs other zergs. Nevertheless, I still think zerg needs something to help in the early game vs T and P, and perhaps more than that as well. Hmm what about some of these changes? Overlord armor increased from 0 to 1 Spawning Pool build time decreased from 65 to 60 Queen ground attack damage increased from 4(x2) to 5(x2) Inactive creep tumor armor increased from 0 to 10 (active tumors unchanged) Inactive creep tumor HP decreased from 50 to 25 (active tumors unchanged) Baneling Nest cost changed from 100/50 to 150/0 Roach Warren build time increased from 55 to 60 Spine crawler build time decreased from 50 to 40 Spore crawler now detects even while uprooted Root duration decreased from 12 to 8 Pneumatized carapace no longer requires Lair Upgrade to Lair cost decreased from 150/100 to 100/100 Overseer armor increased from 1 to 2 Zerg units now only receive creep speed bonuses if they are on their teams creep Creep is now color coded by team You can no longer create buildings on your opponents creep (fyi this also prevents offensive tumors) Protoss and Terran players can now create buildings on their team's creep in 2v2 3v3 and 4v4 | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On March 13 2011 06:07 caradoc wrote: You might've hit the nail on the head here. The change increases the viability of siege tanks vs. infestors, reduces the viability of ghosts vs. infestors. Having infestors stronger vs. siege tanks (i.e. with 110 health) and simultaneously nerfing emp vs casters may make infestor play relatively too strong in some situations vs. terran. of course we're assuming omniscience on the part of the balance team. It could be just a gut feeling shot from the hip on their part too. But really, 100 energy is still all (more than all?) the energy the HT will ever ever have. so its just a sentry buff vs ghosts in PvT. That's hyperbole, really. If you have a high templar that isn't fighting for about a minute after being warped in (without amulet, even) you will have more than 100 energy. This happens pretty often, so in all those occasions it will be a buff for high templars. I have to say that upon further consideration I'm not really fond of the EMP change though. If I was a terran player and I'd EMP an infestor, I would want to be sure they couldn't use fungals anymore, without checking all of them for energy (might add beneficial mechanical requirements though?). It's more of a transparency issue in this case, because as a player it seems like it would just be so frustrating if you get a nice EMP off on all of his infestors, and then he has a clutch fungal growth to destroy your army anyway. If you had known he had the energy, you wouldn't have engaged, but you did and you lost the game. I still do think the EMP change is mostly right. It is a problem that spellcasters can be so totally and completely shutdown by one well-aimed cast. I don't think there is any spell in the game that can be this strong while also being this hard to prevent or mitigate. And in my opinion it's bad for the game to have ghosts as hard-counters for other casters. It's not good design, because casters are skill-intensive, audience-favourite, fun units that you want your players to have to make. A ghost should be able to prevent some damage, but still leave casters cost-effective. Actually, ghost vs infestor , ghost vs high templar are fun and tactical mini-games, because the first two can both cloak, but also essentially destroy the other unit if they so desire, so it's a very amusing "mission-style" type of gameplay, more inspiring than just finding the right concave as far as tactics go. | ||
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Blizzard_torments_me
Romania199 Posts
On March 13 2011 04:28 ToyotomiXD wrote: Correction: removing all TERRAN timing is not good, eh, eh. But seriously, this is the easiest way to fix this problem. The stim push is the hardest timming attack to stop, if they go ahead with the nerf then terrans will just have to adapt. Dw about it, if anyone can find a way to flip this nerf, you can. Stim timing push?Are you guys even diamond? Who the hell does that anymore :O ? This seems like another nerf to satisfy the lower leagues. Way to go blizzard. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On March 13 2011 06:38 Blizzard_torments_me wrote: Stim timing push?Are you guys even diamond? Who the hell does that anymore :O ? This seems like another nerf to satisfy the lower leagues. Way to go blizzard. Stim and a hellion? That's not exactly a low league timing attack. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
What I woulda liked: everything the same in PTR except the following: Amulet brought back in and gives +15 energy EMP remains the same infestor gains health buff and missile is 2x or maybe even 3x faster | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
Why don't they skip the middle hand and just remove bio units from TvZ? | ||
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Reason.SC2
Canada1047 Posts
On March 13 2011 07:02 VanGarde wrote: Wait, so what they did was they made fungal undodgeable again, they keep it at the higher dps so that two fungals kills marines and you can't outheal it, and they nerfed emp so that you can't actually emp fully energized infestors.. Why don't they skip the middle hand and just remove bio units from TvZ? Baseless wine ftw. "Oh no the tier 3 unit that is mean to counter my tier 1 units is now very effective at countering them" Wahhhh what do I do? | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
On March 12 2011 22:13 Alpina wrote: Very sad about infestor missile reverted  Missile gives nice micro to the game - muta/phoenix/hellion micro would be really cool vs. FG. And I can't believe they reverted infestors hp - I mean what's the point? Yeah. Also don't like the ghost change. Would prefer something like 100% energy 50 shields. | ||
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Zidane
United States1689 Posts
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JerKy
Korea (South)3013 Posts
On March 12 2011 22:10 CreepCrepe wrote: Infestor still nerfed. Cool beans. I'm pretty sure this isn't a nerf Fungal growth does the same amount of damage in half the time, and because of insta-cast, dodging it is the same as it was before. | ||
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Turbo.Tactics
Germany675 Posts
On March 13 2011 07:02 VanGarde wrote: Wait, so what they did was they made fungal undodgeable again, they keep it at the higher dps so that two fungals kills marines and you can't outheal it, and they nerfed emp so that you can't actually emp fully energized infestors.. Why don't they skip the middle hand and just remove bio units from TvZ? Well... you wouldn't need them to be entirely honest. Infestors will never end a game but the dps change will make them cost effective if the terran decides to transition into mech. I played my fair share of ZvT's with Infestors and haven't seen as much Ghosts as to say this change is necessary but the feel of having my infestors emp'd (which you basically can't prevent as soon as cloak is up) with loss of full energy is kinda redicoulus since Ultras are useless against Bio or Mech with bio support as long as you don't have fungal. | ||
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Morphs
Netherlands645 Posts
Hmm what about some of these changes? [.. interesting changes..] There are some very nice subtle buffs in that list for zerg. | ||
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GhoSt[shield]
Canada2131 Posts
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
On March 13 2011 06:20 Hollis wrote: Oh yeah, I always forget that zergs can vs other zergs. Nevertheless, I still think zerg needs something to help in the early game vs T and P, and perhaps more than that as well. Give zerg colonies like before. You make them first then transform into spore or sunken, in this case spine crawler. This way no 7pool crawler rush because it takes the same 50s in total but now you can put colonies a lot cheaper in advance and transform them quickly when you see units coming. So it would be a good middle ground. Something like half the price for colony that takes 30s to build and another half to transform into spine with 20s build time. | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
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Strut
United States182 Posts
The whole amulet and ghost EMP changes i'm more skeptical about. I don't think it's terrible but I'm worried they're nerfing too much. I would prefer buffing rather than nerfing for this game. | ||
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GooseBoy
United States66 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
Honestly I dont think the Terran changes are going to make things easier for Zerg. 5 extra secs on bunkers is not going to stop bunker rushes, and adding 30 sec to stim means that T is going to hit Zerg with an extra 2 rounds of marines instead. Sure you get an extra round of larvae inject but thats not going to make or break defending vs the larger terran push. Uhm, in bunker rush situations (and pretty much all situations that involve the defensive structures) every second counts. I disagree with 5 seconds not being a big deal. I've easily lost by 5 seconds with spinecrawlers several times. | ||
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On March 12 2011 22:58 Klonere wrote: As a Zerg scrub, I feel that the missle change was actually ok. I would have liked it to be a lot faster if it were to be implemented. I feel it would lead to more emphasis on micro tricks at a a high level. Watching players predict and dodge fungals would be extremely exciting. The removal of the Viking Flower and Archon Toilet is pretty dumb still. A lot of BW micro was based around "breaking" the game and making units do things they were never designed to in the first place (Muta stacking being the big example). Both the Viking Flower and Archon Toilet are really neat little tricks that players can incorporate into their play. They are not imbalanced or game breaking at all. It just seems to be taking away interesting techniques from SCII for no reason Yea i agree from a spectators point of view i think the missile change would have made infestor based play really exciting to watch, the missile even looks cool when its shot, ah well nice change for zerg would have been cool though even if they made it a bit faster so it was almost instant and only the most micro intensive players would beable to dodge it by a bit. | ||
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