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On March 13 2011 07:19 JerKy wrote:I'm pretty sure this isn't a nerf Fungal growth does the same amount of damage in half the time, and because of insta-cast, dodging it is the same as it was before.
I agree with that. Plus,Zergs have to start using the fact that they can move while burrowed. I dont think the hp increase was even necessary. I guess it takes a little more micro but whatever, it`s an advantage that Terran takes all the time with their ghosts (they cloack them).It`s better to try and find solutions instead of waiting for changes to come.
Plus,all the tank shots talk is funny because, Terran are very lazy with their detection, they rarely make Ravens, and they use their comsat energy for Mules instead of Scans.
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On March 13 2011 07:05 Reason.SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 07:02 VanGarde wrote:
Wait, so what they did was they made fungal undodgeable again, they keep it at the higher dps so that two fungals kills marines and you can't outheal it, and they nerfed emp so that you can't actually emp fully energized infestors..
Why don't they skip the middle hand and just remove bio units from TvZ? Baseless wine ftw. "Oh no the tier 3 unit that is mean to counter my tier 1 units is now very effective at countering them" Wahhhh what do I do?
Toss have been saying that along time now. Seems like zerg now get how ridiculous this complain about bio t1 being destroyed by t3 is.
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Zerg still needs a way to scout terran early game. Overlord saccing is easily denied by having marines at the edge while you keep your tech buildings in the center. It can also be denied by pure luck if the overlord is sent in at the opposite side of the tech buildings, leaving terran with more than enough time to snipe it down before it sees anything.
Considering how gamebreaking a helion/banshee push is and how hard it is for zerg to react, something needs to be changed to allow zerg to atleast have a decent chance to scout their enemies. Also, proper AA at tier1 is required due to the insane efficiency of banshees and how easy they kill queens which are zerg's only mobile AA at tier 1. A helion into banshee harass is currently brutally effective as you're forced to put resources into the helion push leaving you defenseless vs banshees that are coming a minute later.
This patch is definitely a step in the right direction but sadly it does absolutely nothing to alleviate the issues with zergs weakness to early harass. It's a problem which has become increasingly frustrating as of late, with more and more terrans taking advantage of the limitations of zerg scouting.
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On March 13 2011 07:02 VanGarde wrote:
Wait, so what they did was they made fungal useful again, they keep it at the higher dps so that two fungals kills marines and you can't just ignore Zerg's choice of lair tech because you have medivacs, and they nerfed emp so that you have to emp twice fully energized infestors..
Why don't they skip the middle hand and just make it so I have to give the tiniest of fucks what Zerg is making?
Few spelling mistakes there I caught for you 
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Honestly I don't see the point of a major balance patch before HotS, it's not like the game is completely broken right now. The only changes that make sense are the increase to bunker build time (although removing salvage would be infinitely better) and fixing charge. A Khaydarin Amulet nerf to make it give even 20 instead of 25 energy would be sensible too, since toss could still defend drops with warp storms as long as they scouted them, but removing it is confusingly bad.
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On March 13 2011 08:22 Creem wrote:
This patch is definitely a step in the right direction but sadly it does absolutely nothing to alleviate the issues with zergs weakness to early harass. It's a problem which has become increasingly frustrating as of late, with more and more terrans taking advantage of the limitations of zerg scouting.
It also completely sidesteps the issue of collosus balls which, from what I've read here, seems to be the biggest issue people have with the game right now.
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On March 13 2011 07:02 VanGarde wrote:
Wait, so what they did was they made fungal undodgeable again, they keep it at the higher dps so that two fungals kills marines and you can't outheal it, and they nerfed emp so that you can't actually emp fully energized infestors..
Why don't they skip the middle hand and just remove bio units from TvZ?
rofl this sounds awfully familiar.
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On March 13 2011 07:02 VanGarde wrote:
Wait, so what they did was they made fungal undodgeable again, they keep it at the higher dps so that two fungals kills marines and you can't outheal it, and they nerfed emp so that you can't actually emp fully energized infestors..
Why don't they skip the middle hand and just remove bio units from TvZ?
I know right, why dont they just remove bio units from zerg too since siege tanks own them all OH WAIT EVERY ZERG UNIT BIO
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On March 13 2011 08:29 jalstar wrote:
Honestly I don't see the point of a major balance patch before HotS, it's not like the game is completely broken right now. The only changes that make sense are the increase to bunker build time (although removing salvage would be infinitely better) and fixing charge. A Khaydarin Amulet nerf to make it give even 20 instead of 25 energy would be sensible too, since toss could still defend drops with warp storms as long as they scouted them, but removing it is confusingly bad.
Fucking this. No insta-storm. Removing the Amulet altogether instead of doing this is just dumb.
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I wonder how viable templar will be vs. muta-ling -> ultra 300 food pushes now.
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On March 13 2011 08:46 caradoc wrote:
I wonder how viable templar will be vs. muta-ling -> ultra 300 food pushes now.
why wouldnt it be viable?
spawn a couple in your base pre-emptively
zerg doesnt have EMP so youll always have the energy
except you wont be throwing around emps like nothing
which will add more skill to end game ZvP
because lets be honest.
4+ base Toss late game those warp in storms are MAD cheap and outrageously cost effective
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yeah, I dunno, 45 seconds is a long time on xnc vs. a swarm of speedlings when you've lost the bulk of your army.
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Bio will still be viable. It's just that pure bio will not be as effective, but no one goes pure bio anymore. It's harder to play and riskier. This will make Tank positioning more crucial in warding off infestors, and Ghost micro crucial in pushing out with marines.
People are overrating both Amulet and EMP. Removal of Amulet won't change much, except the usage of disposable Templars where you fire and forget. It was never a good design, in my opinion. EMP is still good. 100 energy will still drastically cut the number of storms and forcefields a Protoss army has.
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On March 12 2011 23:51 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 23:17 Grummler wrote:On March 12 2011 23:10 Dommk wrote:On March 12 2011 23:05 Grummler wrote:On March 12 2011 22:58 WickedBit wrote:On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". Most protosses recognize that amulet is way OP. It definitely need the nerf but just doing away with it is too much. It is sort of like saying that stimmed marines are too good...so lets remove stim! This is not a good way to balance. They should try to nerf overpowered abilities first and then remove it if and only if the said ability is impossible to balance in any form. Well, i dont disagree. I only want people to recognize that the emp got a significant nerf, not a weird kind of buff. I never said that removing the amulet was the best way to balance the ht. On a side note: Removing the amulet doesnt equal removing stim, because hts can storm afterall... Its more like delaying storm for every individual ht. I think his analogy holds quite well. The entire sense of "if something is too powerful, then lets remove it!" If High Templars started off with 0 energy then the entire tech tree is about as useless as an un-stimmed marine late game.. and I completely disagree with you saying that emp nerf was "significant", how was it significant? High Templars need 175 energy to Storm after an EMP now, that is still such a stupidly high number, especially if there are multiple ghosts. Why is everyone taking 175 energy as some kind of treshold? EMP removes 100 energy, not 175. So everything above 100 (!) energy will make a difference, not 175. Also, i dislike how nobody talks about sentries. They DO have a lot of energy very often. Also you cant just emp multiple times. Emp needs energy as well. Every emp needed more to get rid of a ht is one emp less hitting somewhere else. This is right. People are saying as if emp doesn't require energy, Terran has to create ghosts before battles, and they are way more expensive than HTs. Yes, we all know that ghosts can shoot, but how often you see ghost's dps affect the battle? Most of the time they sacrifice themselves to get the emp off. And it's not like HTs don't have skill that remove energy anyway. Ghost remove 100 energy and shield aoe target, HTs remove all the energy and deal direct damage with less energy but single target. It's just a battle of who is sneakier. Of course each of us like one over another, but that adds the variety in sc2. imo, what HTs need is a speed buff, so that they can be worth warping in from the beginning, right now they are just too slow to be a mobile unit, most of the time they are nothing but static defense.
I'm going to stop you right there. You cant honestly tell me that "100 minerals = way more expensive" For starters the HT tech costs a lot more, the Ghost has a (powerful) basic attack for when it runs out of energy, as well as an extremely inexpensive secondary ability *cough snipe cough*. Don't forget that ghosts move at the same speed as the rest of you army an can be upgraded with cloak. If you don't think all of that is worth 100 minerals you are insane.
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On March 13 2011 09:00 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 23:51 canikizu wrote:On March 12 2011 23:17 Grummler wrote:On March 12 2011 23:10 Dommk wrote:On March 12 2011 23:05 Grummler wrote:On March 12 2011 22:58 WickedBit wrote:On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it". Most protosses recognize that amulet is way OP. It definitely need the nerf but just doing away with it is too much. It is sort of like saying that stimmed marines are too good...so lets remove stim! This is not a good way to balance. They should try to nerf overpowered abilities first and then remove it if and only if the said ability is impossible to balance in any form. Well, i dont disagree. I only want people to recognize that the emp got a significant nerf, not a weird kind of buff. I never said that removing the amulet was the best way to balance the ht. On a side note: Removing the amulet doesnt equal removing stim, because hts can storm afterall... Its more like delaying storm for every individual ht. I think his analogy holds quite well. The entire sense of "if something is too powerful, then lets remove it!" If High Templars started off with 0 energy then the entire tech tree is about as useless as an un-stimmed marine late game.. and I completely disagree with you saying that emp nerf was "significant", how was it significant? High Templars need 175 energy to Storm after an EMP now, that is still such a stupidly high number, especially if there are multiple ghosts. Why is everyone taking 175 energy as some kind of treshold? EMP removes 100 energy, not 175. So everything above 100 (!) energy will make a difference, not 175. Also, i dislike how nobody talks about sentries. They DO have a lot of energy very often. Also you cant just emp multiple times. Emp needs energy as well. Every emp needed more to get rid of a ht is one emp less hitting somewhere else. This is right. People are saying as if emp doesn't require energy, Terran has to create ghosts before battles, and they are way more expensive than HTs. Yes, we all know that ghosts can shoot, but how often you see ghost's dps affect the battle? Most of the time they sacrifice themselves to get the emp off. And it's not like HTs don't have skill that remove energy anyway. Ghost remove 100 energy and shield aoe target, HTs remove all the energy and deal direct damage with less energy but single target. It's just a battle of who is sneakier. Of course each of us like one over another, but that adds the variety in sc2. imo, what HTs need is a speed buff, so that they can be worth warping in from the beginning, right now they are just too slow to be a mobile unit, most of the time they are nothing but static defense. I'm going to stop you right there. You cant honestly tell me that "100 minerals = way more expensive" For starters the HT tech costs a lot more, the Ghost has a (powerful) basic attack for when it runs out of energy, as well as an extremely inexpensive secondary ability *cough snipe cough*. Don't forget that ghosts move at the same speed as the rest of you army an can be upgraded with cloak. If you don't think all of that is worth 100 minerals you are insane.
It's funny when people talk about the Ghost EMP nerf as if it changes things. 100 energy is still A LOT of energy. If all the PTR changes go through, the only way a Ghost's EMP won't render a HT useless (ie no more storms) is if the HT has 175+ energy, which requires the HT to have over 200 seconds of sitting, waiting, building up energy, and in general being useless.
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lol EMP nerf doesnt do SHIT. now if a templar SOMEHOW has 175+ energy, the terran has to emp them twice(zomg that takes waaay too much skill)
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I think I see a trend here, whoever gets his race nerfed whines just enough for blizzard to screw with the other race. If my race gets nerfed I will complain to blizzard, and since blizzard is fair and partial they will equally nerf your race.
I hate this but I think for HTs, protoss will have to build warp prism to carry them along with the protoss deathball. Similar to how shuttles were used in BW.
What I am hating about SC2 is the amount of units you need to actually have an army. Long are gone the days were three to four units were enough for an army.
I mean the toss deathball consists of, stalkers, zealots, sentries, colossus, hts sometimes immortals other times phoenix or voidrays. That's a lot of units. From a spectator stand point that's going to get boring quickly.
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I have to side with some people that the change to EMP is sort of, non-factor. If anything it looks like a knee-jerk reaction to appease protoss players for saying EMP is too strong as well as thinking that with this nerf to amulet they'll be truly helpless to ever win games beyond divine intervention.
EMP might have seemed strong when amulet was researched and an HT would be warped in only to not fight for another minute or two, THEN did a ghost that was just build with moebius reactor seem strong. Though with amulet being removed maybe numbers won't be as high now. But is it EMPs fault that a player keeps all his templar or an entire army grouped? At higher levels you don't see this but I have a feeling a good number of the "emp is op" crowd at guilty of this charge.
Oddly however, feedback still exists to such a strength where even with the movement change to BCs, I'm still not inclined to say they still will be seldom seen in TvP, especially now since more ghosts will be needed!
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it.
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still want to remove amulet? sigh i don't want HTs anymore
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EPT
