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On March 13 2011 19:52 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 19:44 Satiini wrote:![[image loading]](http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/5580/split.jpg) Here we go, now you will survive the emp push easily, nomatter if emp takes up 500 mana or 100  If i wasn't too lazy i would of copy pasted your picture with terran units and said "Here we go, now you will survive the storm push easily"
LOL, that's what I think is funny as well, splitting HTs is so much harder considering their slow speed makes them clump so much easier, while splitting a Bio ball is the easiest thing ever, yet we BARELY ever see it, even at the highest level of play.
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storm push hmm, must be some new strategy I havent seen yet :D its the defensive warpin storm im more worried about than your infamous storm push :D
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On March 13 2011 19:52 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 19:44 Satiini wrote:Here we go, now you will survive the emp push easily, nomatter if emp takes up 500 mana or 100 If i wasn't too lazy i would of copy pasted your picture with terran units and said "Here we go, now you will survive the storm push easily"
What the fuck is a storm push?
It's more, "omg everytime I move out my shit goes straight to the red"
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On March 13 2011 19:32 Zorgaz wrote:
When i read the patch notes it seems to me that FG has been buffed.
Why are so many people complaining about a nerf?
Ghost nerf is okay if KA is removed i guess.
This has been said before, but i'll say it here again.
The FG changes are a nerf.
The spell is useful in controlling space, and delaying enemy forces. Laying down fungal growth also allows you to get better positioning and surrounds. Very loosely, it could be considered a sort of zerg forcefield.
The changes are such that the duration is halved. This means that is half as effective at delaying and you get half as long to position your roaches, or surround the enemy with zerglings. In return, the dps is doubled, but it does the same amount of damage overall (meaning it still wont kill anything on its own). One could say you're getting half the utility for a couple of extra roach shots in battle (though if you cast outside the battle, the terran will simply heal up before heading in anyway, and they're going to have medivacs up if you're rolling infestors).
Another thing this nerf does is stop infestors killing air units single handedly, as the infested terrans will be unlikely to get more than a shot or two off before the flier is out of range.
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I'm a Protoss player that offraces zerg, and I had played around with the Fungal projectile a bit on the old PTR. I actually didn't mind it being a projectile. It let the infestor 'lead' the shot a little bit (which meant I could cast it from a further distance from the bioball) and the infestors seemed to survive casting it more often than they used to (mind you, the extra HP might have helped on this too). No terrans I faced on the PTR were able to micro their units out - it moved pretty quick.
But my real issue is still the amulet change, and I'm sad now because Blizzard showing they'd revoked some changes, but NOT the amulet change, probably means it's final.
Someone pointed this out earlier in the thread, but it needs to be repeated - *when* can a Protoss now get HTs? The reason that you hardly ever see HTs warped in before amulet is done is not so much that Protoss are lazy and want instant energy HTs - we'd love a few ful energy HTs by the time all our research is done - it's actually that they can't RISK spending the gas on HTs until amulet is done - HTs are useless without storm energy and the Toss NEEDs to spend the gas AND the warpgate cooldowns on units that can defend right away. I'm sure every greedy Toss can remember a game where they decided to get some HTs out as soon as they could, and as a result were down a colossi and a few gateway units, and just flat out lost the game to a push before the HTs could make any difference. You learn that lesson. That's how it's going to be at any time until you've got 5+ bases now.
I honestly can't see myself making HTs ever in PvT now... it'll just be colossus each and every game, and it'll be solely determined by whether Terran builds enough vikings, and whether I can catch them with stalkers. I don't expect that to end favourably for me, since terrans will know that unless Toss is doing a 1base all in, almost their entire suite of tech paths (robo/star) can now be handled with vikings.
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On March 13 2011 19:54 Shooks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 19:52 sekritzzz wrote:On March 13 2011 19:44 Satiini wrote:Here we go, now you will survive the emp push easily, nomatter if emp takes up 500 mana or 100 If i wasn't too lazy i would of copy pasted your picture with terran units and said "Here we go, now you will survive the storm push easily" LOL, that's what I think is funny as well, splitting HTs is so much harder considering their slow speed makes them clump so much easier, while splitting a Bio ball is the easiest thing ever, yet we BARELY ever see it, even at the highest level of play.
Splitting HT's is hard? What? I mean most master level protoss players just have 1 huge ball of HT's, then they complain when they get EMPed - quite silly. And it's not hard to split them i mean come on...
And you never see splitting of a bio ball? Ever watched ANY high level TvP or TvZ? Marineking? MVP? Even the most average masters player splits his marines/marauders again banelings/storms. When is the last time you've watched a game where a Terran player just let his bioball get run over by banelings, or didnt move out of the storms?
It's been said before, but i think protoss "suffer" alot from a-move units like the colossi deathballs and such, which isnt their fault or anything, it's just how their units work - the templar was different though along with the phoenix. I'd like to see more casters and less deathball a-move units.
I dont mean to make this sound like terran players are better than protoss players, which they obviously arent. But i think that protoss players have been spoiled with the HT's insta warp in storm and therefore didnt really split HT's. If you warp in templars ahead of time, and dont have like 7 of them clumped up, you can still get tons of storms off. It just requires a little bit of a change in playstyle that's all.
Also, i bet 98% of people havent even tried to play with the new changes, they just say stuff based on theory. If the HT was nerfed too hard then blizzard will just buff it back again - blizzard actually does a good job at balancing, despite what many people think.
I think the ghost nerf was good, EMP was balanced before, but with the new HT change i think a nerf to EMP is good - although maybe it's not enough.
The stim research time change seems silly. It's really rare to see a game where Terran wins with a 3rax stim push (which i guess is the reason for the change..?). 2 rax is much better against zerg, and 3 rax is easily held off by every protoss build except like 1 gate FE. If they really wanted to make TvP early game less terran favored, then maybe nerfing conc shell would be a better choice. That being said i dont think the change will do anything, i've never actually needed stim faster, so i dont really care.
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On March 13 2011 19:26 Raymund wrote:
Toss strongers race allready but still all they get is buffes. Like who the fuck cares about HT nerf? u use em 1 of 100 games in TvP. Its the collases that rip though everything. But i guess the blizzards is to retarded to get what u have to do to get this game balanced. Already its almost impossibal to win a 200/200 army from toss as a terran. Why dont they just buff colasses so they start to one shotting everything. And yes im going to switch race after this patch. Protoss get 3 upgrades now instead of 2. But why not buff the shit out of one race and nerf the other races.
I hate to break it to you bud but toss has been Nerfed more then any other race, In every single patch since the beginning of the beta in fact. And I would watch where you make such absurd clams about balance I've seen people banned for allot less then that.
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On March 13 2011 21:20 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 19:26 Raymund wrote:
Toss strongers race allready but still all they get is buffes. Like who the fuck cares about HT nerf? u use em 1 of 100 games in TvP. Its the collases that rip though everything. But i guess the blizzards is to retarded to get what u have to do to get this game balanced. Already its almost impossibal to win a 200/200 army from toss as a terran. Why dont they just buff colasses so they start to one shotting everything. And yes im going to switch race after this patch. Protoss get 3 upgrades now instead of 2. But why not buff the shit out of one race and nerf the other races. I hate to break it to you bud but toss has been Nerfed more then any other race, In every single patch since the beginning of the beta in fact. And I would watch where you make such absurd clams about balance I've seen people banned for allot less then that.
let us for a moment imagine pre nerf every patch in beta, protoss today..
what a scary thought
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On March 13 2011 21:29 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 21:20 gosuMalicE wrote:On March 13 2011 19:26 Raymund wrote:
Toss strongers race allready but still all they get is buffes. Like who the fuck cares about HT nerf? u use em 1 of 100 games in TvP. Its the collases that rip though everything. But i guess the blizzards is to retarded to get what u have to do to get this game balanced. Already its almost impossibal to win a 200/200 army from toss as a terran. Why dont they just buff colasses so they start to one shotting everything. And yes im going to switch race after this patch. Protoss get 3 upgrades now instead of 2. But why not buff the shit out of one race and nerf the other races. I hate to break it to you bud but toss has been Nerfed more then any other race, In every single patch since the beginning of the beta in fact. And I would watch where you make such absurd clams about balance I've seen people banned for allot less then that. let us for a moment imagine pre nerf every patch in beta, protoss today.. what a scary thought
Yeah Protoss was obviously OP back then lol  I'm just correcting this guy saying that all protoss is getting is buffs.
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On March 13 2011 19:23 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 18:49 beef42 wrote:On March 13 2011 18:40 Durn wrote:On March 13 2011 18:36 xenaris wrote:On March 12 2011 22:10 Pulz wrote:
So Terran is even more vulnerable to HTs and Infestors still die with 2 Tank shots? I like the other changes though.. dude really.. no amulet? just drop everywhere and protoss will almost not be able to counter it. MMM every game :p if he goes HT you can just emp all of em like always. Oh no, Protoss has to defend drops like every other race... Except every other race has T1 units they either shoot up or run very quickly. Yeah because the stalkers are slow and don't shoot up.
Yes because everyone knows how well stalkers do vs a dropship of marauders
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On March 13 2011 21:01 Deadlyfish wrote:
Splitting HT's is hard? What? I mean most master level protoss players just have 1 huge ball of HT's, then they complain when they get EMPed - quite silly. And it's not hard to split them i mean come on...
Admittedly, it isn't hard to have your HTs spread out before they Storm, but you can't deny that it is a lot harder to micro HTs away from AoE than the bioball, simply because they are a lot slower, even without Stim.
It's been said before, but i think protoss "suffer" alot from a-move units like the colossi deathballs and such, which isnt their fault or anything, it's just how their units work - the templar was different though along with the phoenix. I'd like to see more casters and less deathball a-move units.
I agree that I'd love to see less a-move armies, but I think singling out Protoss alone for this is pure bias. Terran's main two army compositions (bio and mech) rely very little on micro in early-mid game, and mech doesn't even lategame, with the exception of Hellions. Bio only needs to have micro when harassing (Protoss can harass as well) and when there is AoE out (again, Protoss fears EMPS, Fungals etc). In addition, the Protoss deathball relies heavily on perfect army composition, whereas bio is just MMM - as many of each as you can get. Although that doesn't come directly under micro, it is exploitable USING micro and requires focus from Protoss, not micro-ing units but making the right quantities of each.
I dont mean to make this sound like terran players are better than protoss players, which they obviously arent. But i think that protoss players have been spoiled with the HT's insta warp in storm and therefore didnt really split HT's. If you warp in templars ahead of time, and dont have like 7 of them clumped up, you can still get tons of storms off. It just requires a little bit of a change in playstyle that's all.
Like a lot of play for Protoss, and indeed almost all the races, micro is too often an optional add-on that will make your play better, whereas in BW it was very necessary for almost everything. Again, I wouldn't single Protoss out for this.
Also, i bet 98% of people havent even tried to play with the new changes, they just say stuff based on theory. If the HT was nerfed too hard then blizzard will just buff it back again - blizzard actually does a good job at balancing, despite what many people think.
I actually agree, but that isn't an argument for the HT being balanced, in and of itself.
The stim research time change seems silly. It's really rare to see a game where Terran wins with a 3rax stim push (which i guess is the reason for the change..?). 2 rax is much better against zerg, and 3 rax is easily held off by every protoss build except like 1 gate FE. If they really wanted to make TvP early game less terran favored, then maybe nerfing conc shell would be a better choice. That being said i dont think the change will do anything, i've never actually needed stim faster, so i dont really care.
I don't ever really lose to an early stim push either, and I doubt high level players have problems with it either. I agree that perhaps Conc Shell nerf would be more practical, or even just a Marine DPS nerf in general.
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Here are some reasons why the Patch 1.3 PTR is completley garbage
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- It will be the third patch which ignores the Reaper again since Patch 1.1.2. The unit is practically dead cuz of 4 mayor changes such as the Supply Depot Requirement for the Barracks, the Factory Requirement for the Nitro packs Upgrade, the Roach range buff from 3 to 4 and the additionally 5 secs. to build from the Patch 1.1.0 and Blizzard doesn't even care to slightley buff the unit.
- We get another useless build time change for the Bunker. We had a 40 sec. build time at the start of the Beta, 30 sec. during Beta Patch 6 to the end, 35 sec. with the first mayor balance change in Patch 1.1.0 since release and now we will get 40 secs. again which probably won't change anything. Instead of looking on the "Salvage Ability" for bunkers which might be the problem cuz you always get your money back even when your bunker rush fails, Blizzard decides to leave that out and simply increase the build time again.
- Increasing Movement speed from 1.406 to 1.875 for Battlecruisers might be a good change but it's interesting to see that the Battlecruiser get so much attention compared to the Carrier. We had a slight dmg nerf on the Ground weapons during the Patch 1.1.0 and build time decreases for the BC and the Fusion Core during the Beta, fine. Do you actually remember when we had our last Carrier balance change ? Not ? Well the reason is easy. There was none since the start of the Beta. The Carrier is not underpowered but heavily underused and each patch without an effort to change that is a pain in the ass.
- The 3 different Protoss Tech trees will be kinda none existent in the higher level of play if the Khaydarin Amulet and Vortex change really appear in Patch 1.3. As a Protoss player myself I completley agree that Warp-In Storms are to strong but simply removing the upgrade for HT's is so damn silly and Blizzard doesn't even try to redesign those Energy Upgrades but that leads to a another fundamental problem. The whole Templar Tech turns into shit. HT's and DT's were already underused and this change makes it even worse. The Vortex Archon combination is dead. The Mothership has probably lost his best weapon and this unit was also heavily underused. It seems like every P involved Matchup will turn into a War of the Worls with pure Colossi domination and btw. the only thing which had the right to be removed was the Dark Shrine and nothing else.
- Redesigning Fungal Growth instead of Neural Parasite. If you ask a High Level Zerg player about these two abilitys you will always get the same answer. We saw Fungal Growth in the GSL, the ability has potential, it's not like the Spell is totally useless but where the fuck do I see NP in the GSL or high level games? The Spell is probably the worst in the game right now and Blizzard......yeah they buff Fungal Growth -_-
- Ignoring Hydras again and thats really dumb cuz every other change will help out Non-Hydra play. Infestors will take over the DPS role and PvZ turns into Colossi madness anyway so why should we play Hydras anymore ?
- EMP change will have no impact. It rather seems like a joke that EMP finally gets a nerf, after the HT's get nerfed into Oblivion.
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To summarize.....the patch is complete bullshit!
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On March 13 2011 21:01 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 19:54 Shooks wrote:On March 13 2011 19:52 sekritzzz wrote:On March 13 2011 19:44 Satiini wrote:Here we go, now you will survive the emp push easily, nomatter if emp takes up 500 mana or 100 If i wasn't too lazy i would of copy pasted your picture with terran units and said "Here we go, now you will survive the storm push easily" LOL, that's what I think is funny as well, splitting HTs is so much harder considering their slow speed makes them clump so much easier, while splitting a Bio ball is the easiest thing ever, yet we BARELY ever see it, even at the highest level of play. Splitting HT's is hard? What? I mean most master level protoss players just have 1 huge ball of HT's, then they complain when they get EMPed - quite silly. And it's not hard to split them i mean come on... And you never see splitting of a bio ball? Ever watched ANY high level TvP or TvZ? Marineking? MVP? Even the most average masters player splits his marines/marauders again banelings/storms. When is the last time you've watched a game where a Terran player just let his bioball get run over by banelings, or didnt move out of the storms? It's been said before, but i think protoss "suffer" alot from a-move units like the colossi deathballs and such, which isnt their fault or anything, it's just how their units work - the templar was different though along with the phoenix. I'd like to see more casters and less deathball a-move units. I dont mean to make this sound like terran players are better than protoss players, which they obviously arent. But i think that protoss players have been spoiled with the HT's insta warp in storm and therefore didnt really split HT's. If you warp in templars ahead of time, and dont have like 7 of them clumped up, you can still get tons of storms off. It just requires a little bit of a change in playstyle that's all. Also, i bet 98% of people havent even tried to play with the new changes, they just say stuff based on theory. If the HT was nerfed too hard then blizzard will just buff it back again - blizzard actually does a good job at balancing, despite what many people think. I think the ghost nerf was good, EMP was balanced before, but with the new HT change i think a nerf to EMP is good - although maybe it's not enough. The stim research time change seems silly. It's really rare to see a game where Terran wins with a 3rax stim push (which i guess is the reason for the change..?). 2 rax is much better against zerg, and 3 rax is easily held off by every protoss build except like 1 gate FE. If they really wanted to make TvP early game less terran favored, then maybe nerfing conc shell would be a better choice. That being said i dont think the change will do anything, i've never actually needed stim faster, so i dont really care.
Splitting your HTs while moving is ridiculously hard, while extremely easy to pre spread them before a fight, but most Terran's don't just stand there in a fight do they? They run and kite which makes the HTs group up almost instantly
Yes, I see all high level Terrans split against Banelings, but barely against Protoss, even SCfou vs San the other day, SC constantly got hit by storms in a big group, then the 1 battle he didn't, completely destroyed San.
Like I said so many times before, EMP is going to need a big nerf if they're going to go through with this patch, opening Colossi then tech switching into HTs will be fine, but going HTs into Colossi will be virtually impossible, once Terran get 8+ ghosts, the Protoss army usually just dies whether they split or not, and have to rely on the warp ins to just survive, if Terran players just learned not to stack EMPs and actually save them for the warp ins, there wouldn't be so much whinging
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On March 13 2011 22:03 Mentymion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Here are some reasons why the Patch 1.3 PTR is completley garbage
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- It will be the third patch which ignores the Reaper again since Patch 1.1.2. The unit is practically dead cuz of 4 mayor changes such as the Supply Depot Requirement for the Barracks, the Factory Requirement for the Nitro packs Upgrade, the Roach range buff from 3 to 4 and the additionally 5 secs. to build from the Patch 1.1.0 and Blizzard doesn't even care to slightley buff the unit.
- We get another useless build time change for the Bunker. We had a 40 sec. build time at the start of the Beta, 30 sec. during Beta Patch 6 to the end, 35 sec. with the first mayor balance change in Patch 1.1.0 since release and now we will get 40 secs. again which probably won't change anything. Instead of looking on the "Salvage Ability" for bunkers which might be the problem cuz you always get your money back even when your bunker rush fails, Blizzard decides to leave that out and simply increase the build time again.
- Increasing Movement speed from 1.406 to 1.875 for Battlecruisers might be a good change but it's interesting to see that the Battlecruiser get so much attention compared to the Carrier. We had a slight dmg nerf on the Ground weapons during the Patch 1.1.0 and build time decreases for the BC and the Fusion Core during the Beta, fine. Do you actually remember when we had our last Carrier balance change ? Not ? Well the reason is easy. There was none since the start of the Beta. The Carrier is not underpowered but heavily underused and each patch without an effort to change that is a pain in the ass.
- The 3 different Protoss Tech trees will be kinda none existent in the higher level of play if the Khaydarin Amulet and Vortex change really appear in Patch 1.3. As a Protoss player myself I completley agree that Warp-In Storms are to strong but simply removing the upgrade for HT's is so damn silly and Blizzard doesn't even try to redesign those Energy Upgrades but that leads to a another fundamental problem. The whole Templar Tech turns into shit. HT's and DT's were already underused and this change makes it even worse. The Vortex Archon combination is dead. The Mothership has probably lost his best weapon and this unit was also heavily underused. It seems like every P involved Matchup will turn into a War of the Worls with pure Colossi domination and btw. the only thing which had the right to be removed was the Dark Shrine and nothing else.
- Redesigning Fungal Growth instead of Neural Parasite. If you ask a High Level Zerg player about these two abilitys you will always get the same answer. We saw Fungal Growth in the GSL, the ability has potential, it's not like the Spell is totally useless but where the fuck do I see NP in the GSL or high level games? The Spell is probably the worst in the game right now and Blizzard......yeah they buff Fungal Growth -_-
- Ignoring Hydras again and thats really dumb cuz every other change will help out Non-Hydra play. Infestors will take over the DPS role and PvZ turns into Colossi madness anyway so why should we play Hydras anymore ?
- EMP change will have no impact. It rather seems like a joke that EMP finally gets a nerf, after the HT's get nerfed into Oblivion.
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To summarize.....the patch is complete bullshit!
Amen
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On March 13 2011 22:02 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +It's been said before, but i think protoss "suffer" alot from a-move units like the colossi deathballs and such, which isnt their fault or anything, it's just how their units work - the templar was different though along with the phoenix. I'd like to see more casters and less deathball a-move units. I agree that I'd love to see less a-move armies, but I think singling out Protoss alone for this is pure bias. Terran's main two army compositions (bio and mech) rely very little on micro in early-mid game, and mech doesn't even lategame, with the exception of Hellions. Bio only needs to have micro when harassing (Protoss can harass as well) and when there is AoE out (again, Protoss fears EMPS, Fungals etc). In addition, the Protoss deathball relies heavily on perfect army composition, whereas bio is just MMM - as many of each as you can get. Although that doesn't come directly under micro, it is exploitable USING micro and requires focus from Protoss, not micro-ing units but making the right quantities of each.
I dont mean to single out protoss either, i agree that in TvP terrans dont need alot of micro to do well, but i still feel protoss just sort of builds up a huge army and then attacks, whereas terrans drop alot and do other cute things. I hope that blizzard will change protoss to allow them to drop/harass more easily - like terran. (what i'm saying is that terran has an easy time doing this and protoss doesnt).
Take PvZ for example. It feels like a boring matchup when all protoss does is get like 150-200/200 army and then just attacks zerg, it doesnt feel very dynamic (if that's the right word ). I know that is a simplified version of how PvZ plays out, i'm just generalizing. In TvZ sure terran will move out with the usual tank/marine off of 2 base, but there is alot more going on. Drops, muta harass, back and forth marine/baneling action. I dont know if that''s just me being biased (i'm Terran, surprise!) but that's how it feels.
Now this has nothing to do with balance, but i'm just sad to see yet another caster nerfed that provided toss with some needed variety, even if it was needed (which i believe it was). I hope that in future expansions we'll see more complex units that allow for cute play and not just units like the colossi which to me are boring
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On March 13 2011 00:58 TeWy wrote:
Why are they obsessed about details when there basically are units in SC2 that you almost never see at the Master/semi-pro/pro level ?
It would be so better if they made the hydraliskoffcreep/archons/mothership/ultralisks/warp-prism/reapers/carriers/raven decent instead of nerfing every good units.
What will happen if even before the 2 expansions each race has 2-3 SC1 scout-like unit ???
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I disagree. I think you are MORE likely to see those units you listed at the Master/semi-pro/pro level than you are in the lower levels, except for maybe bronze. In bronze they build that stuff just because they can, and can't use them, but as you get up into gold and plat and diamond you are supposed to *know* that all of those are "bad" so you never use them; but then you start to see higher ranked players making pretty good use of them later on. (Although I'll agree with you on carriers, I can't remember the last time I saw a carrier).
They are obsessed with details because the devil is in the details for RTS games, especially if esports are in mind.
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Does the move speed change for BC's affect viking vs BC in TvT? Seems like it doesn't, but trying to figure out what blizz is trying to accomplish with that change.
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On March 13 2011 22:03 Mentymion wrote:
Here are some reasons why the Patch 1.3 PTR is completley garbage
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- It will be the third patch which ignores the Reaper again since Patch 1.1.2. The unit is practically dead cuz of 4 mayor changes such as the Supply Depot Requirement for the Barracks, the Factory Requirement for the Nitro packs Upgrade, the Roach range buff from 3 to 4 and the additionally 5 secs. to build from the Patch 1.1.0 and Blizzard doesn't even care to slightley buff the unit.
Or maybe people just haven't tried using them? Drewbie has been using them against Protoss and it seems like he has been having some success
- We get another useless build time change for the Bunker. We had a 40 sec. build time at the start of the Beta, 30 sec. during Beta Patch 6 to the end, 35 sec. with the first mayor balance change in Patch 1.1.0 since release and now we will get 40 secs. again which probably won't change anything. Instead of looking on the "Salvage Ability" for bunkers which might be the problem cuz you always get your money back even when your bunker rush fails, Blizzard decides to leave that out and simply increase the build time again.
Salvage or not, if the bunkers go down then it is pretty much game over for Zerg, this helps much more than a salvage nerf as it actually gives Zerg a better chance from being auto Gg'd by two bunkers going down on your ramp
- Increasing Movement speed from 1.406 to 1.875 for Battlecruisers might be a good change but it's interesting to see that the Battlecruiser get so much attention compared to the Carrier. We had a slight dmg nerf on the Ground weapons during the Patch 1.1.0 and build time decreases for the BC and the Fusion Core during the Beta, fine. Do you actually remember when we had our last Carrier balance change ? Not ? Well the reason is easy. There was none since the start of the Beta. The Carrier is not underpowered but heavily underused and each patch without an effort to change that is a pain in the ass.
They are heavily underused because a) Voidrays are so amazing in PvZ, usually you get them to supplement Carriers so Corruptors don't rape you, but when you have enough Voidrays to battle corruptors, most people just keep getting more of them instead of getting Carriers. This might change come next patch since Infestors will be able to kill Voidrays quite quickly, so you might need the Carriers range to try snipe any Infestors that over extend themselves.
and b) Not many Terran go Mech, bio is a lot easier than mech but virtually every game someone has gone mech I've had to go Carriers to finish the game
- Redesigning Fungal Growth instead of Neural Parasite. If you ask a High Level Zerg player about these two abilitys you will always get the same answer. We saw Fungal Growth in the GSL, the ability has potential, it's not like the Spell is totally useless but where the fuck do I see NP in the GSL or high level games? The Spell is probably the worst in the game right now and Blizzard......yeah they buff Fungal Growth -_-
Neural Parasite, although a bit underused, has it's place. It does exceptionally well at countering Battle Cruisers and Thors. It doesn't have a lot of uses against Protoss but there is not much you can do to change that without either changing Protoss or making the spell broken vs Terran
- Ignoring Hydras again and thats really dumb cuz every other change will help out Non-Hydra play. Infestors will take over the DPS role and PvZ turns into Colossi madness anyway so why should we play Hydras anymore ?
I have this crazy idea, what if you used both Infestors AND Hydras?
- EMP change will have no impact. It rather seems like a joke that EMP finally gets a nerf, after the HT's get nerfed into Oblivion.
Agree with the HT nerf but I think the EMP change is supposed to address early ghost pushes, when they usually hit most of your sentries are at full energy so if you spread and still get hit, it isn't devastating
I think you are being overly pessimistic about this patch
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I'm speaking as a protoss, and I'm fairly confident protoss players will overcome the loss of amulet.
Here is what I'm thinking this will evolve into. Instead of warping in templars on need, we will just have to pre-emptively warp in some templar reserves. For example, we may have to have 1-3 templars idling around in base, or near a cluster of bases, to defend versus drops. More than 1 and not standing in the same place so that it's not possible for enemy to take it or them out before you notice the drop/harrass. 1 templar is only 2 supply so having a few in reserve won't hurt any protoss.
If you want, you might have a warp prism nearby to transport the templars to front lines when enemy arrives and EMPs your first templars. Or, maybe you have some templars standing bit behind your army so that when you have to fall back, or when you need to bring more templars to the battle, instead of warping in they are already there. Then instead of warping in templars you warp in some other units to support your army, as your units die and you unmax.
I don't know if any of my ideas are actually valid. My point is, I as a protoss do not feel that my world is falling apart, we will adapt. But then again, I'm only diamond and I may be blind to the fine things people above me are seeing. And I say that in a very respectful tone.
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On March 13 2011 06:06 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 01:21 TeWy wrote:On March 13 2011 01:06 Grumbels wrote:On March 13 2011 00:58 TeWy wrote:
Why are they obsessed about details when there basically are units in SC2 that you almost never see at the Master/semi-pro/pro level ?
It would be so better if they made the hydraliskoffcreep/archons/mothership/ultralisks/warp-prism/reapers/carriers/raven decent instead of nerfing every good units.
What will happen if even before the 2 expansions each race has 2-3 SC1 scout-like unit ???
All these things are interconnected btw... Maybe if Warp-prism was really good, I mean having more than 140 HP an not being absolutely outrun by muta and stimmed-marines, Protoss could rely on multi-task instead of this gigantic stupid deathball of HT/Colossi, thus we wouldn't have to whine about an eventual Khaldarin amulet nerf...
Why is Blizzard obsessed with details? Because they tweaked a unit a little bit? They do that every patch, and it's the reason the balance is actually decent right now. What do you think will happen if they overhaul the game every single patch? Balance is not high because of Blizzard stupid tweaks, let me assure you of that. For playing the game since Beta, I know several nerfs/buffs that have been absolutely catastrophic and that weren't reverted for some reasons (HSM nerf for instance now you NEVER see it, pretty much same thing for reaper and now it will be the same for Mothership), some changes have been made and then have been reverted few months later, Zealot buildtime comes to mind but there are way more... People are getting better and are somehow balancing the game on their own because of the map-making and their sense of timing, that's it... What changes have been detrimental since Beta ? Warp-gate nerf, barrack nerf, stalker buff, roaches nerf, ultralisk buff, nexus HP buff, phoenix buff, on these ones everyone aggree... asides from that ? Probably tank nerf ... asides from that ? That's it. 7-8 good crucial changes out of more than 1 hundred in 1 year, what about the bad changes or the missing changes ? I'm pretty sure the number exceeds 7-8 by quite a lot. Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming I could necessarily do a better job, just that Blizzard balancing process has been very doubtful since Warcraft 3 and WoW. I'm not sure what you are arguing. I think you just disagree with Blizzard's changes and pretend that it is a philosophical issue about balancing styles or something. You can call them stupid tweaks, but how else are you going to balance a game if not constantly tweaking and adjusting things? Take the EMP change you were angry about. It makes EMP slightly weaker in some cases, requiring perhaps a few more ghosts per game, or forcing you to face a few more psi-storms or forcefields. That is the balancing part. The design part is the idea that getting one hit off with EMP shouldn't completely cripple all of your preperation, which I think is a good change for future balancing. Now, what is so bad about this change? It doesn't break the game and possibly improves its design.
First off, if anything, SC2 spells should be buffed since A-move strategies are far too strong in this game.
Nerfing both EMP and HT is a terrible decision in terms of gameplay, but also in terms of balance since it will indirectly buff the Zerg late-game which is already quite insane due to their macro mechanics.
Blizzard is once again showing its short-sightedness and proofing to the community that they only pretend to care about semi-pro/pro to make us feel better.
If their balance propositions weren't based on the results and intuitions of their low league internal balance team but rather on pro feedbacks, they wouldn't have had to read these kind of threads to figure out that the removal of khaldarim amulet might fucked-up TvP late-game balance (thus proposing an EMP nerf).
Another example, zealot, warpgate buildtimes were slightly changed throughout beta and early retail. Those timings for early units are important to get right as way to build future balance changes around, so it took some time to stabilize it, and now people are happy about it. Again, what is so bad about tweaking the game this way?
I listed the warp-gate as one of the few good change since the release of the Beta.
But if we want to get deep into it, I feel that this upgrade is a typical example of Blizzard inability to deal with complex balance issues.
The warp-gate technology is a vital upgrade in all 3 MU for Protoss. It costs pretty much nothing and it is available in a building that every single Protoss gets.
Thus the upgrade is redundant and stupid, since in every single game, Protoss chronoboosts it as soon as possible. There were plently of more elegant ways to balance this spell rather than to multiply by 3 its research time.
Now about Zealot warpgate timing in particular, when was the last time you saw a 2 gates zealot push against Zerg or Protoss ? Right, never again after that patch. As always, Blizzard over-nerfed a strategy which wasn't even that good in the first place.
And actually, the changes you mentioned as very detrimental aren't tweaks. The seeker missle change was pretty big.
Indeed, it was a pretty big blunder, nerfing into oblivion the most awesome spell of the game...
But it was done for good reasons, if I remember correctly, Blizzard was concerned that mass ravens strategies might be a little too powerful in 2v2.
You also claim blizzard shouldn't touch the game and just let the community and maps create balance. What did you think would happen if blizzard hadn't patched the reaper? That somehow the zergs would just get better defending it and then everything would be fine? Or we'd need to create maps without ramps to balance around the reaper's power?
Or a less extreme example: roaches with 3 range made it pretty hard to fight protoss as zerg, should that never have been changed?
Since medivacs are totally out-run by muta, one of the role that the new reaper could fulfilled is the one of a very fast and mobile unit.
If the reaper speed upgrade would be buffed to match zergling /w speed, the unit would definitely have its place in the game.
My problem is that Blizzard nerfed the unit 6 months ago, since then we haven't seen him at all (or maybe 1 at the beginning of some game) but for some reason Blizzard seems to be more concerned about viking flowers.
It's a bizarre claim in general. Blizzard constantly changed things throughout alpha, beta, even when initially thinking up the units. When should this stop, is there a set date or something where by retail you shouldn't patch the game anymore? You can not believe in imbalance as a personal preference, but blizzard isn't the community, they're the designers and should be very mindful of proper balance. You can get change-whiplash, where the game never becomes stable before something is changed yet again, but that just means you should be careful balancing, not that you should stop at all.
Furthermore, Brood War might have ended up balanced, but wasn't for large periods of time. I don't think it's right to have the game be imbalanced for like a year, and just hoping the community figures something out, because there are actual people playing this professionally, with leagues, sponsors, organizers all dependent on fun and exciting games. You can't just be stubborn with so much on the line, and in any case, the lost opportunity of the magic community insight to fix the match-up isn't really that big of a loss imo.
As a general rule I'm opposed to the new policy of Blizzard regarding patching. To me patchs have to be decisive and very rare. Right now they're not "careful" but indecisive and frequent.
I don't think there's any point in tweakening over and over certain units and upgrades when the race whom it belongs has at the very least 2-3 absolutely unused units/upgrades.
Maybe if these 2-3 units were changed to fulfill the race overall weaknesses, we would have a more stable and fun game to play.
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EPT
