EPTPatch 1.3 PTR Notes (12/3/2011 update) - Page 16
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vojnik
Macedonia923 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
In SC1, HTs needed to be built, which of course, takes time. In SC2, we can just warp them in 10 or so seconds with 75 energy. But let's say Amulet is gone. It will take time to gain 25 energy for the storm. But remember, we only have to Warp-In HTs in SC2. So if you add the time it takes to get 25 energy to the Warp-In time, it comes out to be about the same as if you were just building HTs in advance to get them ready for later. One more thing: After waiting for HTs to get enough energy, which is similar to just having to build them in SC1, you will have enough energy to storm immediately, compared to the HT in SC1 where you needed to upgrade energy but still wait for 75 energy (energy upgrade had them start at 63 right?) | ||
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Iranon
United States983 Posts
On March 13 2011 14:03 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Oh yeah, another point of view as to why Amulet should be removed: In SC1, HTs needed to be built, which of course, takes time. In SC2, we can just warp them in 10 or so seconds with 75 energy. But let's say Amulet is gone. It will take time to gain 25 energy for the storm. But remember, we only have to Warp-In HTs in SC2. So if you add the time it takes to get 25 energy to the Warp-In time, it comes out to be about the same as if you were just building HTs in advance to get them ready for later. This logic is just astoundingly silly. You realize that every other gateway unit is warped in too, right? And that gateways have cool-downs? You might as well say "oh man SC2 zealots are soooo much more powerful than SC1 zealots -- you can just warp them right in, you don't have to wait for them to build!"... Really? How could it possibly be useful to compare the SC2 HT with the SC1 HT when you're actually trying to compare the SC2 HT with the upgraded SC2 HT? | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On March 13 2011 13:50 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: Protoss has to learn to get preemptive high templar now, just like terran needs to build ghosts before pushes. It is totally conceivable to have more than 175 energy on your HT by the time you get into battle. My ghosts frequently have 200 by the time i engage because i get 2-3 early in my comp then stop making them. The difference is, even if you warp in them before, and lets assume they have over 150 energy. IF emp hits, and i can garantuee you, at the very highest lvl, terrans should be able to emp the protoss army before their ghost gets feedbacked, you may land 2-3 storms. Thats fair, he dodges / kites back, the fight goes on. YOU HAVE TO WIN that fight, 100% and clearly. If you lose, he re-rallies you to death. If you warp-in new hts during the battle, they'll have to wait, are a useless 150 gas investment for the next ~1-2 minutes, while the terran starts to push you with constant zerg-like re-rallying. Your gateway units wont be able to kill the remaining army. If medivacs are in the game, the smaller the armies get, the more terran benefits. Hts will be only usefull for exactly ONE attack, if that fails, its basically game over. Back and forth, constant exchange of battles, won't happen anymore in the later stages. As of now, we already have this stagnat play when protoss is involved. If they lose one fight, it's over until the game hits 4 bases. Amulet hts were a buffer that could prevent that from happening, cause you could punch back with cost efficient gateway units (stalker/ht/zealots) after a fight. Won't be happening anymore :|. | ||
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reptile
United States210 Posts
On March 12 2011 23:01 Hollis wrote: FG back to instant cast is a huge deal, but I still feel the rest of the FG "Buff" is pretty ambiguous. How often is FG used for the root effect vs how often for damage? I dunno. I just feel like Zerg still needs something, especially for the early game. A significant Spine Crawler build time reduction would help a lot, I think. 50 seconds is way too long. Getting Hydra speed upgrade from BW back would also kick butt. Imagine Hydras speeding along at upgraded Roach speed. Zerg could finally be the scrappy, mobile, counter-attack playstyle it's supposed to be. Even if Hydra's got speed, they're still glass cannons. Hydra's need a health or armor buff before they could even be considered part of the swarm. They're too expensive and too fragile to be implemented in the way Zerg is designed to be played. I'd be fine with them weakening the Hydra in damage, and strengthening its ability to survive. As is, Hydra's are only used as early air defense, and it's usually out of desperation. Also, with the Infestor buff, Hydras will really serve no purpose what so ever. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
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dignity
Canada908 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
This logic is just astoundingly silly. You realize that every other gateway unit is warped in too, right? And that gateways have cool-downs? You might as well say "oh man SC2 zealots are soooo much more powerful than SC1 zealots -- you can just warp them right in, you don't have to wait for them to build!"... Really? How could it possibly be useful to compare the SC2 HT with the SC1 HT when you're actually trying to compare the SC2 HT with the upgraded SC2 HT? Well actually, Protoss is stronger in that idea that, if you constantly warp-in units, then, compared to SC1, you will have more units in SC2 because the units come out at the warp-in time rather than the end of the cooldown time. However, in SC2, High Templars not only come out before the cooldown time, thus allowing you to be much more reactive to things like drops, but also come out ready to storm with the energy upgrade rather than starting at 63 like in SC1. I guess it's not very helpful to compare a unit across two different games, but I just want to point out to those that hate the idea of an HT starting at 50 energy and not being able to warp-in storm because they could start at 63 energy in SC1 -- that HTs are much more convenient in SC2 than in SC1. | ||
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Raagruk
Canada66 Posts
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Chicane
United States7875 Posts
On March 13 2011 16:15 dignity wrote: I think the general theme with all the patches is that everyone complains about nerfs and nobody complains about buffs, even if they play another race. There really has never been a buff which people cried about so far... I highly disagree with this. When phoenix got buffed (both times) there was a huge uproar about it. When the terran infantry upgrades became cheaper many people complained. The reason that it may seem like not many people complain about the buffs is because they usually don't seem to be as significant of a chance when compared to the nerfs (typically). I guarantee you if the next patch notes said "Force fields will now cost 25 energy" everyone would go insane. On another note... As for the EMP change, I don't think this will affect HTs at all, however this may help sentries a bit. I've seen quite a few games (you know... the ones where the terran actually gets ghosts against Protoss because they realize it's a good unit) where a terran EMPs all of the enemies sentries which have been gaining energy all game and are a main part of the protoss force. I am not saying Sentries should or should not be the main part of a P's army, but to all the people who are saying it won't make a difference... I disagree. | ||
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pirsq
Australia145 Posts
The reason they never build up energy is because currently, you never have to worry about getting them ahead of time. You wouldn't ever see ghosts/infestors with energy either if you could warp them in, cast a spell and then morph them into a thor/ultralisk. Now that you actually have to think about getting them ahead of time, you'll naturally have them sitting around with higher energy. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On March 13 2011 12:49 NicolBolas wrote: Even if I were to accept that the change makes FG more like Psi Storm, I don't buy your logical wedge argument. Just because one thing becomes slightly more like some other thing doesn't mean that the game is evolving towards mirror matchups. And I don't see how removing KA makes HTs more like other units. Yes, it gives them a "build time," but that doesn't change the fact that they can still be built anywhere at any time. Nor does it change the fact that they can still be converted into Archons. Or any of the other differences between HTs and other units. All it does is remove Psi Storm on demand. The only other alternative to that is just junking Psi Storm entirely and replacing it with a new spell. Which quite frankly, I'd be in favor of. But Blizzard isn't willing to make major changes like that without an expansion. Also, for some reason, Blizzard considers some things to be unchangable, like Terrans having Siege Tanks or Protoss having Psi Storm. It doesnt even give them a build time, it makes protoss players cry because they are unable to contemplate building something ahead of time(like in bw for example) its almost as funny as "lol you got a useless 150 gas for 2 minutes" isnt energy 1 per second? so 25 seconds you can storm. build them ahead of time? its not a hard concept, protoss mostly just complaining they cant just instantly warp in HT to save their asses | ||
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OminouS
Sweden1343 Posts
On March 12 2011 22:10 Pulz wrote: So Terran is even more vulnerable to HTs and Infestors still die with 2 Tank shots? I like the other changes though.. On March 12 2011 22:10 CreepCrepe wrote: Infestor still nerfed. Cool beans. Are you guys serious? Infestor has double the DPS and +30% against armored. Ghost EMP change makes little to none difference but the amulett is still gone. I hope the changes makes a more balanced game, but if not, the changes can always be reversed. But making statements that aren't true makes me sad =( | ||
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xenaris
Belgium34 Posts
On March 12 2011 22:10 Pulz wrote: So Terran is even more vulnerable to HTs and Infestors still die with 2 Tank shots? I like the other changes though.. dude really.. no amulet? just drop everywhere and protoss will almost not be able to counter it. MMM every game :p if he goes HT you can just emp all of em like always. | ||
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Durn
Canada360 Posts
On March 13 2011 18:36 xenaris wrote: dude really.. no amulet? just drop everywhere and protoss will almost not be able to counter it. MMM every game :p if he goes HT you can just emp all of em like always. Oh no, Protoss has to defend drops like every other race... | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On March 13 2011 18:40 Durn wrote: Oh no, Protoss has to defend drops like every other race... Except it's not that simple. In small engagements, Protoss units (zealot stalker sentry) that can be warped-in are weaker than the typical Terran units that are being dropped (marine marauder). In addition to that, the Protoss deathball is pretty immobile and in general has to travel as a cohesive group. So yes, responding to drops does become considerably harder without warp-in storms. | ||
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
dude really.. no amulet? just drop everywhere and protoss will almost not be able to counter it. MMM every game if he goes HT you can just emp all of em like always. So the deathball will probably be less effective, and toss will have to use stargate/mass gate strats a little more often. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out, I would have made EMP 75/75 myself, that's still almost as much as a psystorm in one hit. I think toss are going to need to conserve their templars more. They're so cost effective at the moment you can just throw them away. I'm continually surprised to see top end players let their HT's wander into the middle of a fight and die after one storm a piece, or they merge them into archons immediately, even if they're clearly winning- or losing the battle. If they microed them a touch better and retreated to safety immediately after storming, or used warp prisms to evacuate them after a lost fight, EMP would be less devastating, and protoss would get exponentially more powerful if they held the game to an even fight. Coming back in with 8-10 storms instead of 3-4 and a couple of archons is a huge deal. | ||
Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On March 13 2011 14:17 andrewlt wrote: Sometimes it feels like Blizzard is trying very hard to nerf any advantage any unit has over simply A-moving it. Casters are already weak in this game compared to BW. If anything, they need to buff the other casters to be like templars, not nerf templars. Now we'll see more colossus play, a boring A-move unit. I cannot agree more  | ||
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beef42
Denmark1037 Posts
On March 13 2011 18:40 Durn wrote: Oh no, Protoss has to defend drops like every other race... Except every other race has T1 units they either shoot up or run very quickly. | ||
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By.Fantasy
Thailand123 Posts
And this is why I never ever ever ever will play SC2 again. Why nerf storms? Storms are suppose to be Imba... Now they nerf it -_-" SC:BW ftw | ||
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