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On March 13 2011 11:42 thesauceishot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:35 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 11:31 benefluence wrote:On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Fungal now does the same total damage, but lasts half the time, i.e. its DPS has been doubled, ignoring the 30% boost to armored. The notes are ambiguous, but ask people who have played on the PTR. Oh cool. Carry on everyone. Apparently you = very far from a genius
No need to be a dick about it.
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On March 13 2011 11:43 King of Blades wrote:
haven't played the PTR at all.
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On March 13 2011 11:43 King of Blades wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:29 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 11:28 blooblooblahblah wrote:On March 13 2011 11:25 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 11:24 chenchen wrote:On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Last four seconds instead of eight . . . and does twice the dps. Keep your insults and your ignorance to yourself. It does 30% increased to armoured units. Marines aren't armoured. ..i'm not sure you understand. Yes it does 30% more to armoured. And yes marines aren't armoured. Tht's completely unrelated. The DPS has doubled for unarmoured units and it's even better for armoured units now. Show me where it says this in the patch notes. It doesn't. Besides, you're not understanding. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1 damage every second for 8 seconds. So I hit you for 8 damage with my fungal growth. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1.3 damage for 4 seconds. So I damage you for 5.2 damage with my fungal growth. !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! You're either an idiot or you haven't played the PTR at all. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1 damage every second for 8 seconds. So I hit you for 8 damage with my fungal growth. This is correct prepatch. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 1.3 damage for 4 seconds. So I damage you for 5.2 damage with my fungal growth. This is wrong. Oh hello marine. I'm going to fungal growth you for 2 damage every second for 4 seconds. So I hit you for 8 damage with my fungal growth. This is postpatch. Oh hello siege tank. I'm going to fungal growth you for 2.6 damage for 4 seconds. So I damage you for 10.4 damage with my fungal growth. Postpatch armored.
But Fungal Growth does 36 damage (excluding +30% vs armoured in future patch). Am I missing something here? I understand all the double DPS arguments, I just don't get where you're getting your numbers from.
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On March 13 2011 11:28 Weasel- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:26 PartyBiscuit wrote:On March 13 2011 11:22 Weasel- wrote:
Ghosts still magically cause the pulse to appear at the target location and also are still able to EMP without requiring an upgrade. Blizzard's proposed EMP change will rarely make a difference (although it will allow 150+ energy templar to always get a feedback on ghosts, which will rarely matter because the EMP will also knock the ghost's energy down).
EDIT: Guy above me, they doubled the dps of fungal growth and halved the duration causing the damage to be the same. Do you really think they would just slash the total damage caused by fungal in half? Ghost have 50 energy out of the gate, they need Moebius to get the +25 before they can EMP immediately. I meant that it doesn't have to be researched at the ghost academy first, like psi storm, hallucination, etc.
feedback doesn't need to be researched and is available right at 50 energy, it also drains ALL energy and does equal damage to the amount of energy drained. I see no problem other than HT are still very good against infestors and zerg still has no real response to HT other than mass roach.
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Feedback hits a single target. A ghost's EMP can strip energy from all of the casters at once, AND does about 500 damage to their supporting army on average. I'm not sure how you can make that comparison. And mass roach is a pretty damn good response to HTs.
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On March 13 2011 11:47 Belisarius wrote:
Feedback hits a single target. A ghost's EMP can strip energy from all of the casters at once, AND does about 500 damage to their supporting army on average. I'm not sure how you can make that comparison. And mass roach is a pretty damn good response to HTs.
Feedback can kill something, EMP can't. In fact EMP doesn't do any real damage depending on how you look at it.
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I'm fairly sure 500 shields is 500 less points of damage the army can take. That's real damage.
And are we really arguing that feedback is OP? It's a useful ability, sure, it's saved my bacon a couple of times, but I don't think it's in the same league as EMP and storm.
Also ghosts have snipe, which can actually kill HTs just like feedback kills ghosts.
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from a design perspective its is wise to remove amulet. amulet removes any concept of energy management. It's a boring upgrade that made the full upgrade path for HT's insanely expensive and time consuming, as well. Remove it, then find a way to balance around it not existing.
things that would go a long way in putting HT's in the right place after amulet removal:
1. improve HT mobility
2. fix archon mobility issues
3. storm research baseline/cheaper/faster
4. any buff in the tech path, dt's included
honestly with how easily archon's mobility issues are abused gotta say HT's have better mobility, even for how slow they move.
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On March 13 2011 11:53 Belisarius wrote:
I'm fairly sure 500 shields is 500 less points of damage the army can take. That's real damage.
And are we really arguing that feedback is OP? It's a useful ability, sure, it's saved my bacon a couple of times, but I don't think it's in the same league as EMP and storm.
here is the difference. You can spread out your units and take less than you would from EMP. If it takes two EMPs to effectively remove your energy thats 150 energy. If it takes two feedbacks to remove two ghosts, that's 100 energy, no amulet required. I guess the hard part is having to click the ghost but that doesn't seem to be a problem at the highest levels of play.
your snipe argument is valid.
I'm not really trying to compare HT and Ghosts here, I'm just pointing out that infestors although they gained a buff against terran from ghosts, they still get sufficiently owned by HT feedback.
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On March 13 2011 11:53 Belisarius wrote:
I'm fairly sure 500 shields is 500 less points of damage the army can take. That's real damage.
And are we really arguing that feedback is OP? It's a useful ability, sure, it's saved my bacon a couple of times, but I don't think it's comparable to EMP.
I said "depending on how you look at it" because, in an optimal situation for the Protoss they can simply retreat and regenerate shields.
I wasn't saying that Feedback is OP, it's just the way you phrased your original post that I quoted made it sound like you thought it's a useless ability.
All I wanted to say that was an EMP will never, ever, ever kill a unit. Ever. One EMP will not kill something, it needs to be supported. One feedback can kill a ghost, raven, medivac or banshee instantly, as well as doing a fair amount of damage to a battlecruiser. You can recover from an EMP by retreating, you can't recover from a properly done feedback because it'll kill whatever's targeted.
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On March 13 2011 11:56 emc wrote:
here is the difference. You can spread out your units and take less than you would from EMP. If it takes two EMPs to effectively remove your energy thats 150 energy. If it takes two feedbacks to remove two ghosts, that's 100 energy, no amulet required. I guess the hard part is having to click the ghost but that doesn't seem to be a problem at the highest levels of play.
your snipe argument is valid.
I'm not really trying to compare HT and Ghosts here, I'm just pointing out that infestors although they gained a buff against terran from ghosts, they still get sufficiently owned by HT feedback.
They do, you're right, but unless the HTs are maxed or in the narrow energy window between 125 and 150, each feedback costs me a storm. Yes, doing it costs you a fungal as well, but to me that's a reasonably fair trade off.
The infestor HP buff did make them harder to feedback down, but in a PvZ deathball situation the fungal changes are a definite buff, so you're still better off than you were pre-patch.
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On March 13 2011 11:25 CreepCrepe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:24 chenchen wrote:On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Last four seconds instead of eight . . . and does twice the dps. Keep your insults and your ignorance to yourself. It does 30% increased to armoured units. Marines aren't armoured. It doesn't take a genius to understand that if fungal growth lasts for half the time, half the damage is going to be dealt? 30% does not equal double, in fact it's so far from it when we are dealing with numbers below ten.
creep......the changes say duration not damage... it deals the SAME damage in a shorter time. If the damaged was nerfed it would say specifficaly (sp?) that the damage was changed not just the duration.
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All I wanted to say that was an EMP will never, ever, ever kill a unit. Ever. One EMP will not kill something, it needs to be supported. One feedback can kill a ghost, raven, medivac or banshee instantly, as well as doing a fair amount of damage to a battlecruiser. You can recover from an EMP by retreating, you can't recover from a properly done feedback because it'll kill whatever's targeted.
Do people just completely forget about snipe? Not to mention that the ghost can actually attack? If you're thinking like this then why don't you just snipe things so you can actually kill them?
Is it really that much worse than feedback? You can kill regardless of opponent's energy and you can hit more units.
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These are some of my thoughts on this patch that i don't think have been mentioned yet. 1. the stim Nerf will not just slow down stim timing pushes, imagine if a terran player goes for a 3 rax build- 2 tech labs 1 reactor- this will take longer to research stim, shell, and shield upgrade. this will allow for faster expansions from the Protoss player. (Especially with the larger maps in the the map pool except for close positions slag pits). If the Protoss player is going for templar before collosi (which is my favorite strategy at the moment) getting a fast 2nd expansion and building mainly immortals, zealots and sentries on 2 bases allows for a really quick 3rd if the terran lets me get a fast 2nd.- i guess the nerf will no longer allow 2 base templar which is not that good anyways. Once on 3 bases and getting templar tech even without the amulet, while not as strong as with the amulet is quite balanced. (i am a toss 3300 diamond with about a 70% win rate vs Terran if not higher, if i could just figure out how to win vs zerg lol- i guess mutas are going to be a bitch as well now) so overall in the ghost vs templar it will be about balanced as it will be easier for protoss to get a good economy to support an army while waiting for templar to gain energy.
i also think zergs may have an easier time with the stim push delay but i don't play zerg so i can not comment.
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On March 13 2011 12:05 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +All I wanted to say that was an EMP will never, ever, ever kill a unit. Ever. One EMP will not kill something, it needs to be supported. One feedback can kill a ghost, raven, medivac or banshee instantly, as well as doing a fair amount of damage to a battlecruiser. You can recover from an EMP by retreating, you can't recover from a properly done feedback because it'll kill whatever's targeted. Do people just completely forget about snipe? Not to mention that the ghost can actually attack? If you're thinking like this then why don't you just snipe things so you can actually kill them? Is it really that much worse than feedback? You can kill regardless of opponent's energy and you can hit more units.
hey, don't get me wrong, I didn't forget about snipe!
The problem is, please correct me if I'm wrong, but due to the delay inbetween snipes (around half a second I believe?) if a single templar is going to try and feedback your single ghost it's impossible to snipe it twice (as you need two snipes to kill them) before they can get a feedback off. It's better to simply EMP the templar as you know that, as long as you do it right, you can EMP them before they can feedback.
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On March 13 2011 11:56 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:53 Belisarius wrote:
I'm fairly sure 500 shields is 500 less points of damage the army can take. That's real damage.
And are we really arguing that feedback is OP? It's a useful ability, sure, it's saved my bacon a couple of times, but I don't think it's in the same league as EMP and storm. here is the difference. You can spread out your units and take less than you would from EMP. If it takes two EMPs to effectively remove your energy thats 150 energy. If it takes two feedbacks to remove two ghosts, that's 100 energy, no amulet required. I guess the hard part is having to click the ghost but that doesn't seem to be a problem at the highest levels of play. your snipe argument is valid. I'm not really trying to compare HT and Ghosts here, I'm just pointing out that infestors although they gained a buff against terran from ghosts, they still get sufficiently owned by HT feedback.
not here to argue apples to oranges, but just to comment:
spreading units for EMP is not the practical way to go about things. we have 3, maybe 4 hotkeys available for our army, which typically include sentries in one group and HT's in another. because of having two spell casters in our army this is a necessity, but it forces manual splitting of the army vs EMP which is a lot of work for a long range, relatively fast moving, medium radius, point-and-shoot AOE ability. Even having ghosts in range of your army whether you can split your army fast or not is still a huge liability. The correct response is to use HT's to ward off the ghosts.
pre-splitting your army is all well and good but come on..you are going to be spending all your time re-adjusting your armies positioning and re-spreading everything out just to avoid 1 cast from 1 unit that will INSTANTLY take away ~50% of your armies HP and ~50%+ energy. Storm is harder to dodge but its much easier avoiding at least some of its damage after it's been laid down.
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On March 13 2011 11:57 Jimmeh wrote:
I said "depending on how you look at it" because, in an optimal situation for the Protoss they can simply retreat and regenerate shields.
I wasn't saying that Feedback is OP, it's just the way you phrased your original post that I quoted made it sound like you thought it's a useless ability.
All I wanted to say that was an EMP will never, ever, ever kill a unit. Ever. One EMP will not kill something, it needs to be supported. One feedback can kill a ghost, raven, medivac or banshee instantly, as well as doing a fair amount of damage to a battlecruiser. You can recover from an EMP by retreating, you can't recover from a properly done feedback because it'll kill whatever's targeted.
I want to make this really clear, because you said this twice and it's flat out not true most of the time.
It's insanely hard to retreat from a terran ball that's just EMP'd you properly. It's not at all a case of "oh, that was a nice emp, I'd better not engage right now." I have no choice if it's done well.
A lot of my units will have no shields, so damage I take retreating goes straight to hp and is permanent. I've lost a lot of my sentries, so an FF wall is either not possible or will cost me all the energy I have left. The terran army under stim is faster than everything I have on the ground, and the marauders' concussive is a death sentence for whatever it hits. Add to this the fact that my most valuable units, my HTs, are the slowest things I own and will fall behind as I pull back, and I'm committed by the time your first unit starts shooting at mine.
One or two ghosts, ahead of an army, EMPing in advance, yes, I can retreat. But if the Terran stims in army to army throwing EMP's, I have to stand and fight.
Also, for a HT to go from 0 energy back to storm is several minutes. There's no way you'll leave me alone for that time.
In spite of this rant, I personally don't think the matchup is too bad, and I agree that warp-in storm is fairly stupid, but you need to understand how much power and flexibility your speed + emp gives you, and that we don't have the same options.
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On March 13 2011 11:44 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:42 thesauceishot wrote:On March 13 2011 11:35 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 11:31 benefluence wrote:On March 13 2011 11:19 CreepCrepe wrote:On March 13 2011 09:25 Sv1 wrote:
People who say that any changes to the infestor are nerfs in some way or another are bonkers. This completely gives zerg an edge in marine/bio play, almost to a point which terran may have to build ghosts to counter them.
It means that terran will certainly need a Raven to limit creep spread because an instant cast fungal when an opposing army of marines is approaching is going to be dead meat if they don't stay spread out. I'm happy to see the change so dummy zergs can stop going mutaling every game, there's no reason that they shouldn't have been using infestors more and now they will and I'm happy to see it. ..... Have you had a stroke recently? The infestor changes do NOT affect bio-balls at all, apart from making it easier for Terran SEEING AS THOUGH FUNGAL GROWTH NOW LASTS FOUR SECONDS INSTEAD OF EIGHT. THAT IS HALF THE DAMAGE DEALT. Fungal now does the same total damage, but lasts half the time, i.e. its DPS has been doubled, ignoring the 30% boost to armored. The notes are ambiguous, but ask people who have played on the PTR. Oh cool. Carry on everyone. Apparently you = very far from a genius No need to be a dick about it.
My remark looks timid in comparison to his.
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The EMP change may also be directed towards other units with energy. Like BCs and other units with lots of energy like the mothership which hasn't seen much use in PvT. This may allow it to be used effectively especially with HTs there too and no vikings on the field.
Also, Fungal growth will be doing 9 dps for 4 seconds instead of 4.5 dps for 8 seconds. That's not even counting vs armored. That means you can effectively out DPS the healing of medivacs with FG and lings alone and not need so many banelings. The reduction on the root is the only downside, but zerg should always get a few mutas to handle drop harass vs T and P.
Overall, the uniqueness each race has is awesome. Which allows for a huge dynamic of play in this wonderful strategy game. You have to strategically and tactically work around the other race's/player's strengths while accommodating your own.
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On March 13 2011 12:15 xseverityx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:56 emc wrote:On March 13 2011 11:53 Belisarius wrote:
I'm fairly sure 500 shields is 500 less points of damage the army can take. That's real damage.
And are we really arguing that feedback is OP? It's a useful ability, sure, it's saved my bacon a couple of times, but I don't think it's in the same league as EMP and storm. here is the difference. You can spread out your units and take less than you would from EMP. If it takes two EMPs to effectively remove your energy thats 150 energy. If it takes two feedbacks to remove two ghosts, that's 100 energy, no amulet required. I guess the hard part is having to click the ghost but that doesn't seem to be a problem at the highest levels of play. your snipe argument is valid. I'm not really trying to compare HT and Ghosts here, I'm just pointing out that infestors although they gained a buff against terran from ghosts, they still get sufficiently owned by HT feedback. not here to argue apples to oranges, but just to comment: spreading units for EMP is not the practical way to go about things. we have 3, maybe 4 hotkeys available for our army, which typically include sentries in one group and HT's in another. because of having two spell casters in our army this is a necessity, but it forces manual splitting of the army vs EMP which is a lot of work for a long range, relatively fast moving, medium radius, point-and-shoot AOE ability. Even having ghosts in range of your army whether you can split your army fast or not is still a huge liability. The correct response is to use HT's to ward off the ghosts. pre-splitting your army is all well and good but come on..you are going to be spending all your time re-adjusting your armies positioning and re-spreading everything out just to avoid 1 cast from 1 unit that will INSTANTLY take away ~50% of your armies HP and ~50%+ energy. Storm is harder to dodge but its much easier avoiding at least some of its damage after it's been laid down.
This kind of post is the completely wrong way to approach balancing things.
Basically, you assume that "because it's hard to do, it's not a viable option so it should be changed". Essentially, posts like this are saying "Blizzard, please balance SC2 for lower level players" which is completely the wrong way to go about it.
Starcraft 2 should be balanced for, almost, perfect play.
"We have 3, maybe 4, hotkeys available for our army"- No, you have 10. If your arguments are either I need to hotkey buildings or I can't physically use all available control groups (or something similar) then you're low level and the game shouldn't be balanced around you.
"Splitting units for EMP is not practical" - No, it is practical. Ever see Terrans splitting bio vs banelings? 99% of that is done without hotkeys.
"[If you are] pre-splitting your army... you are going to be spending all your time re-adjusting your armies positioning..." - No. If you're a high level player, you'll be able to do this in a second.
On March 13 2011 12:16 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:57 Jimmeh wrote:
I said "depending on how you look at it" because, in an optimal situation for the Protoss they can simply retreat and regenerate shields.
I wasn't saying that Feedback is OP, it's just the way you phrased your original post that I quoted made it sound like you thought it's a useless ability.
All I wanted to say that was an EMP will never, ever, ever kill a unit. Ever. One EMP will not kill something, it needs to be supported. One feedback can kill a ghost, raven, medivac or banshee instantly, as well as doing a fair amount of damage to a battlecruiser. You can recover from an EMP by retreating, you can't recover from a properly done feedback because it'll kill whatever's targeted. I want to make this really clear, because you said this twice and it's flat out not true most of the time. It's insanely hard to retreat from a terran ball that's just EMP'd you properly. It's not at all a case of "oh, that was a nice emp, I'd better not engage right now." I have no choice if it's done well. A lot of my units will have no shields, so damage I take retreating goes straight to hp and is permanent. I've lost a lot of my sentries, so an FF wall is either not possible or will cost me all the energy I have left. The terran army under stim is faster than everything I have on the ground, and the marauders' concussive is a death sentence for whatever it hits. Add to this the fact that my most valuable units, my HTs, are the slowest things I own and will fall behind as I pull back, and I'm committed by the time your first unit starts shooting at mine. One or two ghosts, ahead of an army, EMPing in advance, yes, I can retreat. But if the Terran stims in army to army throwing EMP's, I have to stand and fight. Also, for a HT to go from 0 energy back to storm is several minutes. There's no way you'll leave me alone for that time. In spite of this rant, I personally don't think the matchup is too bad, and I agree that warp-in storm is fairly stupid, but you need to understand how much power and flexibility your speed + emp gives you, and that we don't have the same options.
Don't worry man, I know what you mean and agree with you. I just wanted to play devil's advocate to get some decent gameplay discussion going instead of, what I viewed the thread as, "lol no one's going to use templar anymore" or "lol ghosts are still op".
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EPT
