EPTThis is gonna get messy.
Patch 1.3 PTR Notes (12/3/2011 update) - Page 15
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DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
This is gonna get messy. | ||
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Armsved
Denmark642 Posts
Fungal growth probably needs a buff, but as Idra mentioned the change is kind of bad because it makes it more similar to storm. The characteristik thing about fungal has always been the root effect and how it synergizes with 4 range roaches, slow hydras, melee units and ofc. the baneling. Now they are turning it in to more of a damage spell similar to storm. So while the buff will probably good for balance its pretty damn bad for the game, making the races more similar. The same happens so HTs which are basicly having a buildtime added to them. Both changes are good for balance, but its a step in the wrong direction and balancing the game like that will have us playing nothing but mirrormatches with different skins after the last expansion is out. The change to Stim is imo really bad. If they make good larger maps that itself should be big enough nerf to stim timing pushes. However bigger maps will not make protoss all ins less effective (you can always proxy that one techstructure where a terran really cant proxy 3 barracks). So what this change will end up doing is nerfing the ability for terran to hold protoss all ins and just overnerfing the ablility to do stim pushes which are already nerfed by changing the map pool. | ||
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C5Five
England53 Posts
vP: Holding off a 3 gate/4 gate will mean instant victory if you get 3 or 4 infestors (shorter duration = damage done quicker + buff vs armored = AOE spam vs stalkers. That's cool we don't even need these expensive hydras anymore :-/) vZ: Pretty much means whoever gets infestor first can stall the game for as long as he wants. 90% of the zerg arsenal already dying to 2 or 3 fungals, vs armored bonus will only make it degenerate even deeper into 200 roach vs 200 roach 1a "wish for the best" plays. vT: Not quite sure about that one. I almost see it as a possibly imbalanced situation. Again, +armor damage/faster damage output means that you'll just have to fungal the front marauders 1 or 2 times then 1a banelings with zero hope for the terran to heal up or avoid getting steamrolled. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
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Jimmeh
United Kingdom908 Posts
On March 13 2011 12:29 Armsved wrote: My thoughts on some of it and I think that some of these changes, while probably balancing the game are also very bad for the game. Fungal growth probably needs a buff, but as Idra mentioned the change is kind of bad because it makes it more similar to storm. The characteristik thing about fungal has always been the root effect and how it synergizes with 4 range roaches, slow hydras, melee units and ofc. the baneling. Now they are turning it in to more of a damage spell similar to storm. So while the buff will probably good for balance its pretty damn bad for the game, making the races more similar. The same happens so HTs which are basicly having a buildtime added to them. Both changes are good for balance, but its a step in the wrong direction and balancing the game like that will have us playing nothing but mirrormatches with different skins after the last expansion is out. The change to Stim is imo really bad. If they make good larger maps that itself should be big enough nerf to stim timing pushes. However bigger maps will not make protoss all ins less effective (you can always proxy that one techstructure where a terran really cant proxy 3 barracks). So what this change will end up doing is nerfing the ability for terran to hold protoss all ins and just overnerfing the ablility to do stim pushes which are already nerfed by changing the map pool. I agree with this completely. Whilst I think the fungal growth change will be more useful vs Protoss (in particular the armoured damage increase), the main use for FG was not to do damage but to hold an army in place whilst you used banelings to kill the army. And the stim timing thing is exactly what I and others have been saying. Stim timing pushes are counterable now, and on larger maps they will be even easier to hold. By increasing the stim research you're simply making it harder to deal with all-ins. This guy is a genius. Everything I've seen him post has been 100% accurate. I'm guessing you're a high level player? | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
Fungal growth probably needs a buff, but as Idra mentioned the change is kind of bad because it makes it more similar to storm. The characteristik thing about fungal has always been the root effect and how it synergizes with 4 range roaches, slow hydras, melee units and ofc. the baneling. Now they are turning it in to more of a damage spell similar to storm. So while the buff will probably good for balance its pretty damn bad for the game, making the races more similar. The same happens so HTs which are basicly having a buildtime added to them. Both changes are good for balance, but its a step in the wrong direction and balancing the game like that will have us playing nothing but mirrormatches with different skins after the last expansion is out. Even if I were to accept that the change makes FG more like Psi Storm, I don't buy your logical wedge argument. Just because one thing becomes slightly more like some other thing doesn't mean that the game is evolving towards mirror matchups. And I don't see how removing KA makes HTs more like other units. Yes, it gives them a "build time," but that doesn't change the fact that they can still be built anywhere at any time. Nor does it change the fact that they can still be converted into Archons. Or any of the other differences between HTs and other units. All it does is remove Psi Storm on demand. The only other alternative to that is just junking Psi Storm entirely and replacing it with a new spell. Which quite frankly, I'd be in favor of. But Blizzard isn't willing to make major changes like that without an expansion. Also, for some reason, Blizzard considers some things to be unchangable, like Terrans having Siege Tanks or Protoss having Psi Storm. | ||
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hitman133
United States1425 Posts
Anh BTW is ghost still drain all of the shield from protoss units or just the same amount of energies ? | ||
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Jimmeh
United Kingdom908 Posts
On March 13 2011 13:07 hitman133 wrote: I like the ghost nerf, but still sad about HTs, now Protoss need a composition btwn gatesway units, HTs and colossus. HTs to feedback or storm the vikings only. Anh BTW is ghost still drain all of the shield from protoss units or just the same amount of energies ? EMP never drained all the energy from shields (a pretty common misconception from what I've seen), it removes, and always has removed, 100 from the Protoss shields. The change is that now EMP only removes 100 energy instead of, potentially, all the targeted units' energy. | ||
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jaiiiii
United States72 Posts
On March 13 2011 12:49 NicolBolas wrote: And I don't see how removing KA makes HTs more like other units. Yes, it gives them a "build time," but that doesn't change the fact that they can still be built anywhere at any time. Nor does it change the fact that they can still be converted into Archons. Or any of the other differences between HTs and other units. All it does is remove Psi Storm on demand. Thing is, some of the inherent advantages of Protoss are being removed along with KA. Should anyone attempt to go HT (which i seriously doubt they will if the nerf goes through as is), why warp them in anywhere but back in a corner of your base where they'll be most protected? They are some of the squishiest units in the game, and coupled with their move speed/uselessness you lose near all incentive to warp them in wherever you want. I agree that archons are pretty good, but tbh they have pretty low range, very small splash radius, and the biggest problem of them all...they're not massive :\. The fact that they're not massive makes them nigh unusable against terran, as by the time they get into range to do much damage, they will have already exploded. Psi storm on demand is currently too powerful. Add a 10 second cooldown on warp-in/Decrease the energy gained from KA/etc etc where the templar doesnt have to be a sitting duck for 45 seconds building energy would be more than acceptable. And if people think "well you can just protect your templars better", you REALLY need to play with templars once. Also, does no one understand that any decent player will not let his templars sit around gathering energy much past 75? It's such a waste of gas if you let them sit there gathering energy past a certain threshold. EMP nerf can't be meant to compensate for the HT nerf, it is most likely compensating for the fact that sentries currently are insta-rendered useless by an EMP, usually meaning that the protoss army is roflstomped. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10376 Posts
I actually wonder if they changed the emp for emp rush that they were talking about instead of to help ht's. Where was this? Can you link please or say where? If it was that good of a rush then most likely it was xD Why is everyone taking 175 energy as some kind of treshold? EMP removes 100 energy, not 175. So everything above 100 (!) energy will make a difference, not 175. Also, i dislike how nobody talks about sentries. They DO have a lot of energy very often. Because if you're talking about whether a HT can storm or not, anything under 175 will not be different (at the exact time after the EMP). | ||
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jaiiiii
United States72 Posts
On March 13 2011 12:30 C5Five wrote: Am I the only one to get the feeling that this infestor change will rip the spine out of the current balance -concretely, I mean- ? (I play zerg mind you). vP: Holding off a 3 gate/4 gate will mean instant victory if you get 3 or 4 infestors (shorter duration = damage done quicker + buff vs armored = AOE spam vs stalkers. That's cool we don't even need these expensive hydras anymore :-/) Can't say much about the other two match-ups, as I play mostly zerg and toss. However, the infestor definitely won't get out in time for 3gate/4gate push, so it shouldn't be too detrimental to the balance there. Personally I think the addition of the +30% damage to stalkers is going to be pretty annoying, but I think it'll be nice for zerg to have other options. | ||
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Armsved
Denmark642 Posts
On March 13 2011 12:49 NicolBolas wrote: Even if I were to accept that the change makes FG more like Psi Storm, I don't buy your logical wedge argument. Just because one thing becomes slightly more like some other thing doesn't mean that the game is evolving towards mirror matchups. And I don't see how removing KA makes HTs more like other units. Yes, it gives them a "build time," but that doesn't change the fact that they can still be built anywhere at any time. Nor does it change the fact that they can still be converted into Archons. Or any of the other differences between HTs and other units. All it does is remove Psi Storm on demand. The only other alternative to that is just junking Psi Storm entirely and replacing it with a new spell. Which quite frankly, I'd be in favor of. But Blizzard isn't willing to make major changes like that without an expansion. Also, for some reason, Blizzard considers some things to be unchangable, like Terrans having Siege Tanks or Protoss having Psi Storm. You are right that the changes wont make infestors, HTs and ghosts identical. However it will make them closer to identical. The main characteristik of infestors is the root and the role of the infestor was to root the units so your main army could do damage. I dont know wether or not it will be the case, but if infestors are turned into pure damage dealers its pretty bad for the game. The main characteristik of protoss gateway units has been the warpin. With the nerf to HTs they are basicly getting a build time. Yes you can still warp them in, but lets not fool ourself, they will pretty much be useless till storm is up. Its all subjective, but in my opinion you should not be streamlining, remove their characteristik and make them take roles of other units. I would much rather have them remove the damage from fungal growth and have the duration increased to 16 sec or keeping KA and addressing protoss lategame in other ways. | ||
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
On March 13 2011 13:17 jaiiiii wrote: Can't say much about the other two match-ups, as I play mostly zerg and toss. However, the infestor definitely won't get out in time for 3gate/4gate push, so it shouldn't be too detrimental to the balance there. Personally I think the addition of the +30% damage to stalkers is going to be pretty annoying, but I think it'll be nice for zerg to have other options. it will encourage more infestors in the mix and you'll see a lot more chain fungals. People are already experimenting on ladder a lot with it. A few fungals with retreat micro can melt a death ball reasonably fast and very cost efficiently. | ||
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Shooks
Australia256 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On March 12 2011 22:44 Bagi wrote: Good changes. The infestor missile was bound to be too weak against people with excellent micro. I don't mind the ghost change either, it makes sense to drain 100 shields and 100 energy. It might not help HT's that much, but sentries often have max energy in engagements. Would rather it be a missile but be balanced with even stronger fungal. It would create a nice dynamic and make for more interesting games. Although the infestor really should have 2 spells like the defiler. Dark Swarm slows down army progress, while plague does a ton of damage. Theres contention between both depending on the situation. | ||
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Jimmeh
United Kingdom908 Posts
On March 13 2011 13:28 Shooks wrote: Lol, if they're really going to go through with the HT nerf, their gonna have to nerf ghosts somehow. Simple as that, unless Blizzard really do only want Colossus openings. Did you miss the EMP nerf or are you trolling? I really don't get the amount of players saying "The only valid Protoss opening is colossus now". What happened to stargate opening? Chargelots? Blink stalkers? DTs? Mass gateway units? I feel like anyone saying that colossus are the only viable opening with the templar nerf are people who only go colossus now anyway. | ||
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allowicious
United States972 Posts
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Morphs
Netherlands645 Posts
Ever took on a Protoss deathball with infestors? That fungal does not stop him from attacking. Actually it just encourages to stay there and attack you. Units can still attack while fungaled. So then the only thing fungal does, is damage. Compare this to FF, which actually severely messes up your unit positions and puts you in a BAD spot so you just want to escape. Now that's a powerful root. Fungal hardly ever had this use (except vs air). It's clearly a test-thingy to try something new. Zerg really needs a damage buff of some sort since deathballs are super easy to manage while they give every Zerg player a headache. It really is time that the ball goes in the Protoss court. Let them break their heads how they should destroy the mighty zergball.. we haven't had one since release. | ||
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Armsved
Denmark642 Posts
On March 13 2011 13:37 Jimmeh wrote: Did you miss the EMP nerf or are you trolling? I really don't get the amount of players saying "The only valid Protoss opening is colossus now". What happened to stargate opening? Chargelots? Blink stalkers? DTs? Mass gateway units? I feel like anyone saying that colossus are the only viable opening with the templar nerf are people who only go colossus now anyway. Exactly and this nerf will not affect the main reason as to why we arent seeing HT opening in the current state. We might go from seeing 2 base HTs 5% of the time to 0%. The main reason we rarely see HT openings is because: 1: It lags the ability to scout. 2: Its a huge and long investment which can easiliy be exploited by timing pushes by terran. 3: Its hard to build HTs and maintain a good unit composition of 4 geysers. 4: With collusus you can easily punish a terran who gets vikings too late and just kill him, but ghost tech is so easy to get that you dont have such a timing with a HT opener. | ||
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Doomblaze
United States1292 Posts
Protoss has to learn to get preemptive high templar now, just like terran needs to build ghosts before pushes. It is totally conceivable to have more than 175 energy on your HT by the time you get into battle. My ghosts frequently have 200 by the time i engage because i get 2-3 early in my comp then stop making them. I dont know if i like the nerf to ghosts, but i can see why, removing all energy from tightly clumped sentry and ht deathballs as well as shields won me so many games its crazy. | ||
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