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On March 13 2011 11:57 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
hon can pretty much. not saying their system would work for other games cause i dont know that. but they did a awesome job to prevent cheating.
Doesn't apply. It technically could since HoN has to (numerically) keep up with a lot more shit but they function as stand-alone servers and hence can handle the payload of data. When a server of HoN goes dark you can just hop onto another of the 100's around. When Bnet goes dark, you go dark with it.
Then there's the problem of bandwidth. An hour of intensive HoN play sucks up about 25 Mb. SC2 takes around 12 Mb and has to handle a player base that is EASILY (I like hon too but let's be honest) a thousand times bigger and handle server bandwidth as well for all these fancy tabs and rankings.
Not even Cogent or Level3 could sustain such an enormous output of data for very long without completely crippling their infrastructure.
:-(
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Heartfelt apologies and confessions AFTER you've been busted are always hilarious.
Fuckoff hackers, we really don't give a shit about your apologies.
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On March 13 2011 11:56 C5Five wrote:Common hacking (map/prod/etc) isn't the biggest problem of SC2 in terms of cheating. The Warden system doesn't check files for CRC. The same OGC-like model-modifying features are appearing (It's easy enough to find videos of them on most streaming websites). Guy fires up his hack and SHAZAM the minimap lights up with the type of unit you're making. The most ironic part of this whole mess being that most of the maphacks currently existing weren't even made from scratch and usual memory exploration but copied most of their routines from the galaxy editor. Blizz made it kind of... "too deep". Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 09:49 JBrown08 wrote:
It is possible because everything that you see in a replay is avalible on your computer while playing the game. It isn't server side, so that means all you have to do is hack your own computer to get the info. This is how all of these hacks work, and why the only thing blizzard can do is monitor the programs you use and ban you later (they can never stop the hacks if it is available on your computer they can only ban offenders and make the hackers create work arounds). Something like that wouldn't be happening if Blizzard, instead of trying to perpetuate their already-failed-in-wow warden system, simply put random 3-way CRC/Hash checks during games. I mean what the hell really... Cheating Death did it in freakin' FPS 10 years ago and it was player-created... It's just sad 
I don't understand. What are you planning to do CRC checks of? Portions of memory? Cause a maphack doesn't need to modify memory to work, only read not write. You're talking about something modifying game files to achieve this right? If that is the method it's certainly not the only method. CRC can't stop this.
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On March 13 2011 12:28 infinity2k9 wrote:
I don't understand. What are you planning to do CRC checks of? Portions of memory? Cause a maphack doesn't need to modify memory to work, only read not write. You're talking about something modifying game files to achieve this right? If that is the method it's certainly not the only method. CRC can't stop this.
In some instances, yes, it can "just" read memory but that's mostly for solo games. Most maphacks however 'bridge' themselves with a game using a dll hook to pass their modifications 'under the rug'.
After reading your message, just out of curiosity I fired up SC2 and softice to see just what the hell's going on in there and I can honestly tell you, no hacker will ever be found nor banned using that system unless they want to.
Warden does a number of VERY visible checks during the game and doesn't even try to hide itself.
Example of checks: (intentionally removed the signatures, go away script kiddies)
+ Show Spoiler +0x00000000 0x09 0 9514FD3E4C299E405F1XXXXXXXXXXXX 6C326XXX
0x00000010 0x12 0 45627AF3559D352EE986122XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 2BC58XXX
Basically what it does is take 2 or 3 huge ass queries at different locations in the memory, makes a hash out of it and compares its length with a second one. If they're matching (Ie: you're maphacking and a value is static like *no fog of war plz*), you get flagged.
The problem with this strategy is that all any competent hacker (or even cracker really, it's no different than removing a nag screen in a shareware) has to do is make these calls jump straight trough the code they inject.
What I meant to say was that they could do a full blown integrity check by comparing players "memory screenshots".
In a 1v1 situation for instance: Server periodically sends ALL information to both players (basically allowing for a "read only" maphack to work like 1 second), games generate a global hash out of that, send it back to the server that compares them. If after 2 or 3 sweeps the hash of one player changes (from game to game), it means they are cheating since they don't return carbon copies of the opponents "memory dump".
I might be going off the cliff with theory here but using such a method would allow to detect cheaters a LOT faster. The downsides would just be consuming a microscopic amount of additional bandwidth and CPU.
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On March 13 2011 05:42 PainUser wrote:
IGware entered into a local LAN tournament at Berkeley in the San Francisco Bay Area. Proceeded to knock me and Axslav out in the first and second rounds of the tournament. The tournament organizers let him play from his dorm room if I'm not mistaken because he was a Berkeley student and there "weren't enough computers"? Several "friends" of his messaged me saying that Sorcery was infact playing on his account from another location and that he had been cheating the entire time. Really low stuff it's funny to see this thread after the fact.
I feel I need to clarify some things. I was one of the tournament organizers for this event. I allowed igware to compete from his home on the condition that he attends in person for the semi-finals (eventually, he did not comply with this condition). He told me that he lives quite a distance away from Berkeley and had some business that he needed to take care of during the time of our tournament. I did not think too much about it and permitted it under the promise that he would show up in person eventually to our event. I was not aware that he allowed Sorcery to play on his account, nor was I aware of Sorcery's history of hacking...
I am relatively new to the Starcraft community and want to be a positive contribution to the community. However, my lack of experience with setting up these events has allowed this to happen and I am very upset that this kind of affair is now associated with one of my first event =/
I promise that future events will have more strict regulations with players to prevent these kind of things happening again...
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also, on the topic of CSL matches....
On March 12 2011 12:46 SniXSniPe wrote:
I've said this before... I'll say it again because he's being accused.
iGware played CSL matches even though he already graduated from Berkeley--- they were caught and are forfeited those matches pretty much, and now are out of the playoffs.
That's cheating a system, and now he's being accused of maphacking makes me disappointed and more against him...
BUT, I have yet to watch the replays. Innocent until proven guilty? >_<
my co-coordinator put up my explanation on the other igware thread
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=200155¤tpage=4
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Didn't think much of it at the time, but here's a 2s vs Sorcery and DxT. Replay is self explanatory. He times his SCV perfectly, and then 'jokingly' says he hacks. Might have been luck. But since everyone is on him about hacking, I'll let you guys be the judge.
http://replayfu.com/r/tJWgrp
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On March 13 2011 11:57 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:50 eveo wrote:On March 12 2011 11:56 Looky wrote:
why is blizzard so bad and creating anti hack. even iccup stopped most of it. You cannot prevent cheating, simply put. hon can pretty much. not saying their system would work for other games cause i dont know that. but they did a awesome job to prevent cheating.
You don't understand the in's and out's of hacking, you cannot prevent it. You can prevent it to a degree but you will never prevent cheating 100%.
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On March 13 2011 14:33 Fase wrote:Didn't think much of it at the time, but here's a 2s vs Sorcery and DxT. Replay is self explanatory. He times his SCV perfectly, and then 'jokingly' says he hacks. Might have been luck. But since everyone is on him about hacking, I'll let you guys be the judge. http://replayfu.com/r/tJWgrp
Speaking of DxT and Sorcery, Gretorp and LGShew actually played them 2s earlier today on Gretorp's stream.
Gretorp and LGShew did win though.
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Although I'm not one of the people who are playing on the stream, this should be his stream, from which he said he's going to stream all his games I believe...
http://www.justin.tv/SorceryOwns
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I didn't read the entire thread, but since there is no LAN in SC2 and because NASL is not an in-person event until the RO16, what is the procedure and policy going to be towards cheating? With a 400,000$ purse I hope they are taking every pre-caution to ensure legitimate matches. If you want to kill E-sports cheating in one of the bigger attempts at it will definitely kill it off, so I hope you guys have something in mind to prevent that from occuring as much as can be.
^^ Sorry about being sorta OT.
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On March 13 2011 13:58 RandomRice wrote:also, on the topic of CSL matches.... Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 12:46 SniXSniPe wrote:
I've said this before... I'll say it again because he's being accused.
iGware played CSL matches even though he already graduated from Berkeley--- they were caught and are forfeited those matches pretty much, and now are out of the playoffs.
That's cheating a system, and now he's being accused of maphacking makes me disappointed and more against him...
BUT, I have yet to watch the replays. Innocent until proven guilty? >_< my co-coordinator put up my explanation on the other igware thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=200155¤tpage=4
i appreciate you organizing this tournament, but knowing that igware is willing to break the rules in the csl, why would you even believe this guy? my friend couldve won if he didnt play against him.
On March 13 2011 13:33 RandomRice wrote:
I promise that future events will have more strict regulations with players to prevent these kind of things happening again...
i hope that this is the last time something fishy happens involving cal and igware
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Protech has to be the most annoying poster i've ever read in my entire life, even if he's right
Epic drama thread ftw
edit: i loved the heartfelt confessions after the fact, and then trying to redeem himself saying that the sorcery account is "pure."
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On March 13 2011 17:45 wilsonusopen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 13:58 RandomRice wrote:also, on the topic of CSL matches.... On March 12 2011 12:46 SniXSniPe wrote:
I've said this before... I'll say it again because he's being accused.
iGware played CSL matches even though he already graduated from Berkeley--- they were caught and are forfeited those matches pretty much, and now are out of the playoffs.
That's cheating a system, and now he's being accused of maphacking makes me disappointed and more against him...
BUT, I have yet to watch the replays. Innocent until proven guilty? >_< my co-coordinator put up my explanation on the other igware thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=200155¤tpage=4 i appreciate you organizing this tournament, but knowing that igware is willing to break the rules in the csl, why would you even believe this guy? my friend couldve won if he didnt play against him. Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 13:33 RandomRice wrote:
I promise that future events will have more strict regulations with players to prevent these kind of things happening again...
i hope that this is the last time something fishy happens involving cal and igware
We, or at the very least I did not know iGware's history. I myself was not liking the fact that he wasn't in person, and was too lax on it. A LAN is a LAN for a reason. In the future the rules are going to be very strict on attendance and smurf accounts. Attendance will be mandatory and smurfing with an account that is not your own will result in a permanent ban from out tournaments. For our next event, there will 100% be countermeasure to make sure that people like iGware do not ruin our tournaments.
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How TommyLove made it to 23 posts before he got banned (and how that ban wasn't permanent) will never be known to me.
Semi-on topic: Shouldn't we bring these arguments to a new thread? This thread has gone on 10 more pages after the hackers admitted that they hack and now most of the posts aren't even about Sorcery or iGware.
More on-topic: Shame on iGware/Sorcery. It's people like them that resemble the cheaters in physical sports, except theres so many more hackers.
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On March 13 2011 17:45 wilsonusopen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 13:58 RandomRice wrote:also, on the topic of CSL matches.... On March 12 2011 12:46 SniXSniPe wrote:
I've said this before... I'll say it again because he's being accused.
iGware played CSL matches even though he already graduated from Berkeley--- they were caught and are forfeited those matches pretty much, and now are out of the playoffs.
That's cheating a system, and now he's being accused of maphacking makes me disappointed and more against him...
BUT, I have yet to watch the replays. Innocent until proven guilty? >_< my co-coordinator put up my explanation on the other igware thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=200155¤tpage=4 i appreciate you organizing this tournament, but knowing that igware is willing to break the rules in the csl, why would you even believe this guy? my friend couldve won if he didnt play against him. Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 13:33 RandomRice wrote:
I promise that future events will have more strict regulations with players to prevent these kind of things happening again...
i hope that this is the last time something fishy happens involving cal and igware
cal disqualification happened AFTER the lan
please don't assume these type of things.
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Hmm... this is super disappointing. I remember when SC2 first came out i lost to absolutely blatant maphackers a few times.
There's something so demoralizing about playing a game (ESPECIALLY an rts) and knowing your opponent could be cheating. Seems so wrong.
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On March 13 2011 11:18 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:15 Skyze wrote:On March 13 2011 11:07 Jimmeh wrote:On March 13 2011 11:00 ftwpker wrote:On March 13 2011 10:57 Jimmeh wrote:On March 13 2011 10:51 ftwpker wrote:On March 13 2011 10:41 Phayze wrote:On March 13 2011 10:38 ftwpker wrote:
Can anyone give me history of hacking/cheating in Starcraft and Starcraft 2 or link me to a site with info?
Im just really curious on this kind of stuff and want to know the in and outs of the topic. You mean you want to download them and use them yourself... Google's not hard, takes anyone with a widget of computer knowledge 30 seconds to find them. People here dont like hackers, sure you might dominate your platinum division on the ladder until you are eventually caught (blizzard detected every single hack in wow that was put onto a public website, this aint a 10 year old game any more and they are quite serious). Yes, just because I'm curious about the HISTORY of hacking in starcraft, I'm automatically a future hacker who goes on the ladder to reach the top rank when I'm not increasing my skill at all. I only posted in here because i wanted to know about topic in the broodwar scene and how they were caught and any current sc2 hackers, but sadly google did not have any good sites. Not exactly a history, but you can read some information about hackers getting caught in BW here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=69911Even includes details of how TT1 was caught as being a hacker (although he has been clean ever since). Another extremely interesting read (hacking - an analysis): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=154717 Thanks M8! I was trying to find TT1 on google but nothing starcraft related except a starcraft 2 player who i don't think is the one from broodwar...or is he? Nope, it's the same one. he's since been forgiven by the community, as he was actually someone who contributed a lot, and has been clean ever since. Even more famous players have been known hackers/cheaters in the past, two obvious ones I can think of: haypro - caught using Oblivion hack whilst spectacting, admitted to it but said it was only for observing. Not too sure what happened in the end. DIMAGA - cheated TSL to increase rank (gave himself two free wins I believe). Not hacking obviously, but not exactly the image that you expect of him when you think of him today. In fact, quite a few of the current SC2 pros who used to play BW cheated at some point, whether through actual hacking or by cheating to try and get into the TSL. correct me if im wrong.. wasnt Testie was caught hacking many times back in the old old days. Like, the x17 days, before he joined Nal or ToT or MYM or any of those other teams.. (when he was DS-Testie) since then, he was arguably the best North American SC player for years when he was in ToT and MYM, and now is one of the top players in HoN. So when I thnk of players rebounding from hacking, he is #1 in my mind, then TT1 and Haypro Yup you're right. he was caught hacking, and I believe he confessed. Since then I don't believe he's hacked again. I chose to not mention him since I don't believe he's been playing much (any?) SC2. Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 11:18 Peas wrote:
TT1 and haypro used to hack... wtf? Can someone elaborate on these cases...im rather curious, espcially considering both are embraced in todays SC2 community. I linked a thread detailing TT1's previous hacking experience a few posts up (seriously, how lazy are you). Regarding haypro, I'm honestly not too sure but from what I remember there was proof he was using the Oblivion hack (map hack, mineral hack, auto split, drop hack, MBS... can't think of what else it contained but, essentially, it was an all-in-one hack) whilst spectating a game. he admitted to it when confronted. If I remember correctly, his clan mates stuck up for him and insisted he never cheated whilst playing and, again if I remember correctly, people let it go. EDIT: Regarding haypro. From Liquipedia: "# Was caught using Oblivion hack in the spring 2008. Claimed it was unintentional but was kicked out of the Swedish National team and ToT for a year before he got back into both. "
if i actually remember correctly(im prob wrong though) he used it to obs games, and then forgot to cut it off in a real game, and then immediatly noticed the auto split but continued playing the game vs strelok anyway
On topic, Ban this hacking fuck
disgusting.
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This is even better than day's of our lives. I love the heartfelt apology after getting caught though.
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On March 13 2011 13:33 RandomRice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 05:42 PainUser wrote:
IGware entered into a local LAN tournament at Berkeley in the San Francisco Bay Area. Proceeded to knock me and Axslav out in the first and second rounds of the tournament. The tournament organizers let him play from his dorm room if I'm not mistaken because he was a Berkeley student and there "weren't enough computers"? Several "friends" of his messaged me saying that Sorcery was infact playing on his account from another location and that he had been cheating the entire time. Really low stuff it's funny to see this thread after the fact. I feel I need to clarify some things. I was one of the tournament organizers for this event. I allowed igware to compete from his home on the condition that he attends in person for the semi-finals (eventually, he did not comply with this condition). He told me that he lives quite a distance away from Berkeley and had some business that he needed to take care of during the time of our tournament. I did not think too much about it and permitted it under the promise that he would show up in person eventually to our event. I was not aware that he allowed Sorcery to play on his account, nor was I aware of Sorcery's history of hacking... I am relatively new to the Starcraft community and want to be a positive contribution to the community. However, my lack of experience with setting up these events has allowed this to happen and I am very upset that this kind of affair is now associated with one of my first event =/ I promise that future events will have more strict regulations with players to prevent these kind of things happening again...
I think it's a good thing you clarified this. No one can do anything perfect from the start when they first do something, like organizing a tournament. This happening, shows you learned from it. And you're honest about it. That's awesome in my opinion. Hackers/cheaters exist, and that's a fact. It's a shame that they knocked out people from a tournament in the past, but you're making the gesture that you don't want stuff like that to happen again in the future. I wish everyone could be as constructive as this.
I feel the thread served its purpose, and it sucks to see people saying "once a cheater, always a cheater" kind of stuff. Cheaters only fool themselves in the end. TT1 is the living proof of the fact that stealing once doesn't make you a thief for life.
Having a certain feeling for justice myself, it gives me a first feeling David Zhu and Josh Price should be banned for ever, or whatever punishment others have brought up in this thread. But really, give them a chance. Because that first feeling is a load of crap that doesn't ever help anything get better as a whole. The fact that cheating in this game isn't going to work out doesn't mean they are bad players for the rest of their lives. But they very well could be on the other hand. Who knows? Time will tell. If they fail at SC2, no one will notice anyway, and they will move on to another game, be it cheating or not. If they succeed at SC2, people will be proven wrong.
So where's that crystal sphere again that allows me to see the actual future, instead of mindlessly filling it in in my brain?
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EPT
