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On March 09 2011 08:56 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 08:53 enigmaticcam wrote:The next time you think, "I could beat all the progamers if I just played as much as them". Think again. The question I ask in turn: How would you know without trying? Look at progammers. Most of them probably practice about the same amount.
And they have their answers. The question is, do you have yours?
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Yup, remember back when mario was actually kinda hard?
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i disagree about the last part if u did spend like 10 000 hours (if u a normal capable human being and dedicated) on one thing you will become close to perfection! you can become what you put ur mind to
No your missing the whole point. The point is that there is such a thing as talant. I don't have to play Starcraft every second of every day to know that even if I did I wouldn't be as good as Jaedong, Flash and the other Pro's. So many Korean kids have tried and only a few make it.
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The casual market = the noob market = the noob effect. It is all the same. If game companies want to make the big bucks, they target the casual gaming market, and thus have to noobify their games, which ALSO saves them money honestly. Cheap to make + larger market.
Trying to cater games to the Gamer market (hardcore gamers) is much more costly and takes longer. They demand higher quality gameplay and don't care as much about graphix and story lines and other things that movies and books are already better at. It just isn't as cost efficient to make good games, and companies are run by people that care about money.
There aren't any philanthropist game developers that don't worry about profit. I would say Blizzard and Valve have the best record for catering towards the hardcore gamers. Next in line would be Indi developers that spend their own cash on developing something that they want to play, and don't end up making much money because it is for gameplay and not for the mass market.
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On March 09 2011 02:31 TheBlueMeaner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 19:30 Axeinst wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 08 2011 19:03 TheBlueMeaner wrote:
People can keep holding on to the naive idea that practice will make you a pro, there is a reason why there are a few select players at the pro level out of the millions of players that comprise the player base... Just have fun, stop the competitive crap specially if you are diamond or below, just have fun and if you make it to masters league having fun so be it... Argh people like this attitude so make me mad. I am honest, it is fucking stupid to think like that because there is absolutely no reasoning or evidence. Your though process goes like this: There is few people at the top -> not everybody cannot become top because there is only few people at the top. The fact is, that to become top of starcraft you need only normal intelligence and body with no disabilities. There is no known natural born factors that makes those gsl-players apart from others. If you are going to claim that in order to become gsl material you need to have some special and natural things that others dont have, you need to have evidence for that. In basketball, there is clear evidence of those kind of factors, like tallness. Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 19:30 Axeinst wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 08 2011 19:03 TheBlueMeaner wrote:
People can keep holding on to the naive idea that practice will make you a pro, there is a reason why there are a few select players at the pro level out of the millions of players that comprise the player base... Just have fun, stop the competitive crap specially if you are diamond or below, just have fun and if you make it to masters league having fun so be it... Argh people like this attitude so make me mad. I am honest, it is fucking stupid to think like that because there is absolutely no reasoning or evidence. Your though process goes like this: There is few people at the top -> not everybody cannot become top because there is only few people at the top. The fact is, that to become top of starcraft you need only normal intelligence and body with no disabilities. There is no known natural born factors that makes those gsl-players apart from others. If you are going to claim that in order to become gsl material you need to have some special and natural things that others dont have, you need to have evidence for that. In basketball, there is clear evidence of those kind of factors, like tallness. Let me tell you something. I am an economist so my frame of thought might not meet yours but I'll try to explain my reasoning. If anyone could achieve greatness in starcraft with just hard work, everyone would do it. If we asume that practice time is an independent variable that has a positive correlation with skill, we must also assume the fact that practice time will have diminishing returns. If we asume this we also can asume that you will eventually peak and reach stability or equilibrium. If practice was the only variable we would not have different individuals with the same ammount of practice at different levels, clearly there must be other variables... There is no gosu secret or quantity of games you have to grind to become the best. Some people just have the reflexes and the dexterity to play with 400 apm while others dont. No matter how hard you practice you won't get to Flash level or Jaedong level. Korean progamers grind games with the same passion and discipline and not everyone gets to be a bonjwa, many just make it to b-team and stagnate, some become coaches... not everyone has it in them to become a professional. Blizzard does its best to hide this fact, they are removing the losses bar in the lower leagues, they make pretty icons, make you feel good because you are a "gold" player, when the truth is you are awful. Some people made it to diamond in the first day they played the game, some with rts experience, others without. Stop tricking yourself into thinking you will become a pro with practice if you are 6 months into the game and still cant hit diamond, sure there are no studies to prove there are especific factors that determine success in starcraft but just stare at the evidence. If everyone that wanted to be a pro could, then being a pro would not be special. All these guys at the top have tons of practice and a natural inclination to succeed in these types of tasks. You can practice all you want but the law of diminishing returns will slap you in the face and you will finally understand the impotence of your position. You could eventually hit pro level with enough practice even with diminishing returns, but since we dont have INFINITE time but limited time you will never practice enough, just have fun man, just play for fun...
Let me say this: you are assuming alot but havent prooved anything that you could backup your claims with.
There is no reason to beliveve anything else than that to get best of the best in starcraft you need only normal intelligence and no disabilities.
Why not everyone are at professional level? It is simply because not everyone has the right dedication and right practice quality and right mindset. And another reason is, that tournaments cannot pick up EVERY player in the earth that should have earned their place at the professional level. Current pro-skene, is just little sample of people who are capable to compete at highest level.
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Axeinst my friend you live in denial
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On March 09 2011 11:58 Axeinst wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 02:31 TheBlueMeaner wrote:On March 08 2011 19:30 Axeinst wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 08 2011 19:03 TheBlueMeaner wrote:
People can keep holding on to the naive idea that practice will make you a pro, there is a reason why there are a few select players at the pro level out of the millions of players that comprise the player base... Just have fun, stop the competitive crap specially if you are diamond or below, just have fun and if you make it to masters league having fun so be it... Argh people like this attitude so make me mad. I am honest, it is fucking stupid to think like that because there is absolutely no reasoning or evidence. Your though process goes like this: There is few people at the top -> not everybody cannot become top because there is only few people at the top. The fact is, that to become top of starcraft you need only normal intelligence and body with no disabilities. There is no known natural born factors that makes those gsl-players apart from others. If you are going to claim that in order to become gsl material you need to have some special and natural things that others dont have, you need to have evidence for that. In basketball, there is clear evidence of those kind of factors, like tallness. On March 08 2011 19:30 Axeinst wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 08 2011 19:03 TheBlueMeaner wrote:
People can keep holding on to the naive idea that practice will make you a pro, there is a reason why there are a few select players at the pro level out of the millions of players that comprise the player base... Just have fun, stop the competitive crap specially if you are diamond or below, just have fun and if you make it to masters league having fun so be it... Argh people like this attitude so make me mad. I am honest, it is fucking stupid to think like that because there is absolutely no reasoning or evidence. Your though process goes like this: There is few people at the top -> not everybody cannot become top because there is only few people at the top. The fact is, that to become top of starcraft you need only normal intelligence and body with no disabilities. There is no known natural born factors that makes those gsl-players apart from others. If you are going to claim that in order to become gsl material you need to have some special and natural things that others dont have, you need to have evidence for that. In basketball, there is clear evidence of those kind of factors, like tallness. Let me tell you something. I am an economist so my frame of thought might not meet yours but I'll try to explain my reasoning. If anyone could achieve greatness in starcraft with just hard work, everyone would do it. If we asume that practice time is an independent variable that has a positive correlation with skill, we must also assume the fact that practice time will have diminishing returns. If we asume this we also can asume that you will eventually peak and reach stability or equilibrium. If practice was the only variable we would not have different individuals with the same ammount of practice at different levels, clearly there must be other variables... There is no gosu secret or quantity of games you have to grind to become the best. Some people just have the reflexes and the dexterity to play with 400 apm while others dont. No matter how hard you practice you won't get to Flash level or Jaedong level. Korean progamers grind games with the same passion and discipline and not everyone gets to be a bonjwa, many just make it to b-team and stagnate, some become coaches... not everyone has it in them to become a professional. Blizzard does its best to hide this fact, they are removing the losses bar in the lower leagues, they make pretty icons, make you feel good because you are a "gold" player, when the truth is you are awful. Some people made it to diamond in the first day they played the game, some with rts experience, others without. Stop tricking yourself into thinking you will become a pro with practice if you are 6 months into the game and still cant hit diamond, sure there are no studies to prove there are especific factors that determine success in starcraft but just stare at the evidence. If everyone that wanted to be a pro could, then being a pro would not be special. All these guys at the top have tons of practice and a natural inclination to succeed in these types of tasks. You can practice all you want but the law of diminishing returns will slap you in the face and you will finally understand the impotence of your position. You could eventually hit pro level with enough practice even with diminishing returns, but since we dont have INFINITE time but limited time you will never practice enough, just have fun man, just play for fun... Let me say this: you are assuming alot but havent prooved anything that you could backup your claims with. There is no reason to beliveve anything else than that to get best of the best in starcraft you need only normal intelligence and no disabilities. Why not everyone are at professional level? It is simply because not everyone has the right dedication and right practice quality and right mindset. And another reason is, that tournaments cannot pick up EVERY player in the earth that should have earned their place at the professional level. Current pro-skene, is just little sample of people who are capable to compete at highest level.
Started to feel sorry for this guy, but I guess ignorance is bliss.
Relevant:
![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_D_Z-D2tzi14/S8TTPQCPA6I/AAAAAAAACwA/ZHZH-Bi8OmI/s1600/ALOT2.png)
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I don't care if I start having a 100% win ratio in all my match ups, I'll still call Mutalisks OP.
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I loled at the golden mouse refence at the end
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On March 09 2011 13:07 politik wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 11:58 Axeinst wrote:On March 09 2011 02:31 TheBlueMeaner wrote:On March 08 2011 19:30 Axeinst wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 08 2011 19:03 TheBlueMeaner wrote:
People can keep holding on to the naive idea that practice will make you a pro, there is a reason why there are a few select players at the pro level out of the millions of players that comprise the player base... Just have fun, stop the competitive crap specially if you are diamond or below, just have fun and if you make it to masters league having fun so be it... Argh people like this attitude so make me mad. I am honest, it is fucking stupid to think like that because there is absolutely no reasoning or evidence. Your though process goes like this: There is few people at the top -> not everybody cannot become top because there is only few people at the top. The fact is, that to become top of starcraft you need only normal intelligence and body with no disabilities. There is no known natural born factors that makes those gsl-players apart from others. If you are going to claim that in order to become gsl material you need to have some special and natural things that others dont have, you need to have evidence for that. In basketball, there is clear evidence of those kind of factors, like tallness. On March 08 2011 19:30 Axeinst wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 08 2011 19:03 TheBlueMeaner wrote:
People can keep holding on to the naive idea that practice will make you a pro, there is a reason why there are a few select players at the pro level out of the millions of players that comprise the player base... Just have fun, stop the competitive crap specially if you are diamond or below, just have fun and if you make it to masters league having fun so be it... Argh people like this attitude so make me mad. I am honest, it is fucking stupid to think like that because there is absolutely no reasoning or evidence. Your though process goes like this: There is few people at the top -> not everybody cannot become top because there is only few people at the top. The fact is, that to become top of starcraft you need only normal intelligence and body with no disabilities. There is no known natural born factors that makes those gsl-players apart from others. If you are going to claim that in order to become gsl material you need to have some special and natural things that others dont have, you need to have evidence for that. In basketball, there is clear evidence of those kind of factors, like tallness. Let me tell you something. I am an economist so my frame of thought might not meet yours but I'll try to explain my reasoning. If anyone could achieve greatness in starcraft with just hard work, everyone would do it. If we asume that practice time is an independent variable that has a positive correlation with skill, we must also assume the fact that practice time will have diminishing returns. If we asume this we also can asume that you will eventually peak and reach stability or equilibrium. If practice was the only variable we would not have different individuals with the same ammount of practice at different levels, clearly there must be other variables... There is no gosu secret or quantity of games you have to grind to become the best. Some people just have the reflexes and the dexterity to play with 400 apm while others dont. No matter how hard you practice you won't get to Flash level or Jaedong level. Korean progamers grind games with the same passion and discipline and not everyone gets to be a bonjwa, many just make it to b-team and stagnate, some become coaches... not everyone has it in them to become a professional. Blizzard does its best to hide this fact, they are removing the losses bar in the lower leagues, they make pretty icons, make you feel good because you are a "gold" player, when the truth is you are awful. Some people made it to diamond in the first day they played the game, some with rts experience, others without. Stop tricking yourself into thinking you will become a pro with practice if you are 6 months into the game and still cant hit diamond, sure there are no studies to prove there are especific factors that determine success in starcraft but just stare at the evidence. If everyone that wanted to be a pro could, then being a pro would not be special. All these guys at the top have tons of practice and a natural inclination to succeed in these types of tasks. You can practice all you want but the law of diminishing returns will slap you in the face and you will finally understand the impotence of your position. You could eventually hit pro level with enough practice even with diminishing returns, but since we dont have INFINITE time but limited time you will never practice enough, just have fun man, just play for fun... Let me say this: you are assuming alot but havent prooved anything that you could backup your claims with. There is no reason to beliveve anything else than that to get best of the best in starcraft you need only normal intelligence and no disabilities. Why not everyone are at professional level? It is simply because not everyone has the right dedication and right practice quality and right mindset. And another reason is, that tournaments cannot pick up EVERY player in the earth that should have earned their place at the professional level. Current pro-skene, is just little sample of people who are capable to compete at highest level. Started to feel sorry for this guy, but I guess ignorance is bliss. Relevant:
World would be better place without stupid people.
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Axeinst, sorry but there's no proof to believe in what you're saying either.
What, as a student psychologist, I know:
Mindset? Determined
Dedication? Determined
Attitude towards Practice? Determined
Gosh, Talent is not a god's gift, it's just that we're living in a deterministic world. The contingencies have shapped a Lim Yo Hwan, they have shapped a Lee Young Ho, and certainly had shapped a Lee Jae Dong to be better than people like Ma Jae Yoon, and obviously the entire TL community.
If you practice, is for a reason, if you aren't used to practice, you won't suddenly and magically be used to. You need a reason to, or better said, a cause to.
There's a lot of evidence suggesting that if you're pass 20 years old you won't be able to become a progamer, so...
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There is absolutely no evidence about that you cannot become progamer after 20 years.
People just assume alot and mess up with causes and outcomes and start to think totally wrong.
The difference between me, and you guys, is that I DONT ASSUME WITHOUT EVIDENCE. I just believe that there is NO REASON TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE WITHOUT EVIDENCE.
If you can provide me proof of being unable to become pro gamer after 20 years, then I can change my mind. But for now, there is no evidence.
It is just like with concept of god. There is no reason to believe that god exist because there is no evidence for it.
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On March 09 2011 14:13 zappa372 wrote:
There's a lot of evidence suggesting that if you're pass 20 years old you won't be able to become a progamer, so...
So I guess WhiteRa is a special case then. :Rollseyes:
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On March 09 2011 14:37 KoKoRo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 14:13 zappa372 wrote:
There's a lot of evidence suggesting that if you're pass 20 years old you won't be able to become a progamer, so...
So I guess WhiteRa is a special case then. :Rollseyes:
haha yeah
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On March 09 2011 14:29 Axeinst wrote:
There is absolutely no evidence about that you cannot become progamer after 20 years.
People just assume alot and mess up with causes and outcomes and start to think totally wrong.
The difference between me, and you guys, is that I DONT ASSUME WITHOUT EVIDENCE. I just believe that there is NO REASON TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE WITHOUT EVIDENCE.
If you can provide me proof of being unable to become pro gamer after 20 years, then I can change my mind. But for now, there is no evidence.
It is just like with concept of god. There is no reason to believe that god exist because there is no evidence for it.
I will give you evidence. ALL THE B-TEAMERS ON KOREAN PRO TEAMS.
Now, if you want examples from a larger sample size, sports athletes, not just e-sports athletes decline in skill as a group after mid-20s. Yes some do last a long time, but exceptions are exceptions.
And if you want to look at talent difference, everyone in and around baseball will tell you David Eckstein is the hardest worker bar none in the league, but for some reason, he just can't produce anything but the average major league players...I WONDER WHY.
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On March 09 2011 15:15 hmsrenown wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 14:29 Axeinst wrote:
There is absolutely no evidence about that you cannot become progamer after 20 years.
People just assume alot and mess up with causes and outcomes and start to think totally wrong.
The difference between me, and you guys, is that I DONT ASSUME WITHOUT EVIDENCE. I just believe that there is NO REASON TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE WITHOUT EVIDENCE.
If you can provide me proof of being unable to become pro gamer after 20 years, then I can change my mind. But for now, there is no evidence.
It is just like with concept of god. There is no reason to believe that god exist because there is no evidence for it. I will give you evidence. ALL THE B-TEAMERS ON KOREAN PRO TEAMS. Now, if you want examples from a larger sample size, sports athletes, not just e-sports athletes decline in skill as a group after mid-20s. Yes some do last a long time, but exceptions are exceptions. And if you want to look at talent difference, everyone in and around baseball will tell you David Eckstein is the hardest worker bar none in the league, but for some reason, he just can't produce anything but the average major league players...I WONDER WHY.
You are still using correlation as a causation which is incorrect logic.
Still; unless you bring evidence there is no reason to believe otherwise than everyone with normal intelligence are able to become top notch pro-gamer with right practise.
What you are trying to do, is trying to proove existence of something with absence of evidence against it.
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On March 09 2011 15:30 Axeinst wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 15:15 hmsrenown wrote:On March 09 2011 14:29 Axeinst wrote:
There is absolutely no evidence about that you cannot become progamer after 20 years.
People just assume alot and mess up with causes and outcomes and start to think totally wrong.
The difference between me, and you guys, is that I DONT ASSUME WITHOUT EVIDENCE. I just believe that there is NO REASON TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE WITHOUT EVIDENCE.
If you can provide me proof of being unable to become pro gamer after 20 years, then I can change my mind. But for now, there is no evidence.
It is just like with concept of god. There is no reason to believe that god exist because there is no evidence for it. I will give you evidence. ALL THE B-TEAMERS ON KOREAN PRO TEAMS. Now, if you want examples from a larger sample size, sports athletes, not just e-sports athletes decline in skill as a group after mid-20s. Yes some do last a long time, but exceptions are exceptions. And if you want to look at talent difference, everyone in and around baseball will tell you David Eckstein is the hardest worker bar none in the league, but for some reason, he just can't produce anything but the average major league players...I WONDER WHY. You are still using correlation as a causation which is incorrect logic. Still; unless you bring evidence there is no reason to believe otherwise than everyone with normal intelligence are able to become top notch pro-gamer with right practise.
Well at least statistically and by scientific method, it is reasonably certain that not everyone who put in those hours can be the absolute best. In which case, every single player would be near identical on skill level, always, if they are on similar training regimen. Therefore the hypothesis of players being equally as good if they have the same practice regimen is clearly false.
The primary evidence for "not all people can reach top-level pro" is the objective skill differential between the S-class players and B-teamers while all of them are on pro teams with similar practice regimen. Now I'd like to hear what evidence you have in the contrary.
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On March 09 2011 15:35 hmsrenown wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 15:30 Axeinst wrote:On March 09 2011 15:15 hmsrenown wrote:On March 09 2011 14:29 Axeinst wrote:
There is absolutely no evidence about that you cannot become progamer after 20 years.
People just assume alot and mess up with causes and outcomes and start to think totally wrong.
The difference between me, and you guys, is that I DONT ASSUME WITHOUT EVIDENCE. I just believe that there is NO REASON TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE WITHOUT EVIDENCE.
If you can provide me proof of being unable to become pro gamer after 20 years, then I can change my mind. But for now, there is no evidence.
It is just like with concept of god. There is no reason to believe that god exist because there is no evidence for it. I will give you evidence. ALL THE B-TEAMERS ON KOREAN PRO TEAMS. Now, if you want examples from a larger sample size, sports athletes, not just e-sports athletes decline in skill as a group after mid-20s. Yes some do last a long time, but exceptions are exceptions. And if you want to look at talent difference, everyone in and around baseball will tell you David Eckstein is the hardest worker bar none in the league, but for some reason, he just can't produce anything but the average major league players...I WONDER WHY. You are still using correlation as a causation which is incorrect logic. Still; unless you bring evidence there is no reason to believe otherwise than everyone with normal intelligence are able to become top notch pro-gamer with right practise. Well at least statistically and by scientific method, it is reasonably certain that not everyone who put in those hours can be the absolute best. In which case, every single player would be near identical on skill level, always, if they are on similar training regiment. Now tell me a better argument for the contrary, thank you.
People practice wrong/not style with suiting best for them
And there is one thing which affects alot: not everyone can be professional because teams cannot pick up everyone and there is always certain little percentage of player base that is took to compete as professional.
There is nothing else.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that there is any birth gift talent unless existence of that is prooved.
You guys are still ASSUMING, not prooving anything.
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Similar training method does not neccesarily provide identical results with everyone. Some people require different training methods than others.
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On March 09 2011 15:38 Axeinst wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 15:35 hmsrenown wrote:On March 09 2011 15:30 Axeinst wrote:On March 09 2011 15:15 hmsrenown wrote:On March 09 2011 14:29 Axeinst wrote:
There is absolutely no evidence about that you cannot become progamer after 20 years.
People just assume alot and mess up with causes and outcomes and start to think totally wrong.
The difference between me, and you guys, is that I DONT ASSUME WITHOUT EVIDENCE. I just believe that there is NO REASON TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE WITHOUT EVIDENCE.
If you can provide me proof of being unable to become pro gamer after 20 years, then I can change my mind. But for now, there is no evidence.
It is just like with concept of god. There is no reason to believe that god exist because there is no evidence for it. I will give you evidence. ALL THE B-TEAMERS ON KOREAN PRO TEAMS. Now, if you want examples from a larger sample size, sports athletes, not just e-sports athletes decline in skill as a group after mid-20s. Yes some do last a long time, but exceptions are exceptions. And if you want to look at talent difference, everyone in and around baseball will tell you David Eckstein is the hardest worker bar none in the league, but for some reason, he just can't produce anything but the average major league players...I WONDER WHY. You are still using correlation as a causation which is incorrect logic. Still; unless you bring evidence there is no reason to believe otherwise than everyone with normal intelligence are able to become top notch pro-gamer with right practise. Well at least statistically and by scientific method, it is reasonably certain that not everyone who put in those hours can be the absolute best. In which case, every single player would be near identical on skill level, always, if they are on similar training regiment. Now tell me a better argument for the contrary, thank you. People practice wrong/not style with suiting best for them And there is one thing which affects alot: not everyone can be professional because teams cannot pick up everyone and there is always certain little percentage of player base that is took to compete as professional. There is nothing else.
So you are acknowledging there are intangible difference between the players right? Let's expand this further.
I will use two top-level players and contrast them. Bisu and Stork (sorry sc2 this example is just really good) are both S-class protoss. However it is clear that Bisu is better at PvZ while Stork is a monster at PvT. They are both ace player on their respective teams (bisu do get challenged by fantasy but it's irrelevant to discussion). They have both enjoyed successes for extended periods, and are likely as dedicated as each other for the game. Now please explain, why after an extended period where both players have repeatedly acknowledged respective weakness in their game and practiced extensively for it, the stat-line for bisu still reads PvT being his worst match-up and for Stork PvZ?
Now your initial hypothesis is likely not valid.
If you don't know that B-teamers are actually pro, I will then use a sc2 example regarding the "be a pro is near impossible and only the best of the best are pros" argument. Look at ROOT.Destiny and ROOT.Minigun. Both players are on professional team, and both risen from stream, small tourneys and good laddering. If there is talent, and it is exposed, professional teams will POUNCE on new talent.
Edit: actually, the best example of all time is the rise of Flash. Please look up his bio. And tell me how he is equally as gifted as the b-teamers.
And please what do you expect as proof? Human genetic diversity is common knowledge among most biologically educated community. You do realize this is the best proof to "not everyone can achieve exactly the same result with exactly the same effort“ argument, right?
Edit 2: I did realize, ignorance is indeed a bliss.
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EPT
