EPTAnyone can be Flash and Jaedong, it depends on how badly you want it. Depending on your existing talent, you will face differing level of hardships/challenges along your journey. So many Korean kids "did not make it" because they can no longer take the punishment, as they also have other concerns or options other than competitive gaming. Why bust your ass trying to be pro-gamers when you can graduate and get a job and play games casually?
The n00b effect - Page 9
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Setev
Malaysia390 Posts
Anyone can be Flash and Jaedong, it depends on how badly you want it. Depending on your existing talent, you will face differing level of hardships/challenges along your journey. So many Korean kids "did not make it" because they can no longer take the punishment, as they also have other concerns or options other than competitive gaming. Why bust your ass trying to be pro-gamers when you can graduate and get a job and play games casually? | ||
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Axeinst
Belize281 Posts
On March 09 2011 15:47 hmsrenown wrote: So you are acknowledging there are intangible difference between the players right? Let's expand this further. I will use two top-level players and contrast them. Bisu and Stork (sorry sc2 this example is just really good) are both S-class protoss. However it is clear that Bisu is better at PvZ while Stork is a monster at PvT. They are both ace player on their respective teams (bisu do get challenged by fantasy but it's irrelevant to discussion). They have both enjoyed successes for extended periods, and are likely as dedicated as each other for the game. Now please explain, why after an extended period where both players have repeatedly acknowledged respective weakness in their game and practiced extensively for it, the stat-line for bisu still reads PvT being his worst match-up and for Stork PvZ? Now your initial hypothesis is likely not valid. If you don't know that B-teamers are actually pro, I will then use a sc2 example regarding the "be a pro is near impossible and only the best of the best are pros" argument. Look at ROOT.Destiny and ROOT.Minigun. Both players are on professional team, and both risen from stream, small tourneys and good laddering. If there is talent, and it is exposed, professional teams will POUNCE on new talent. Edit: actually, the best example of all time is the rise of Flash. Please look up his bio. And tell me how he is equally as gifted as the b-teamers. And please what do you expect as proof? Human genetic diversity is common knowledge among most biologically educated community. You do realize this is the best proof to "not everyone can achieve exactly the same result with exactly the same effort“ argument, right? Edit 2: I did realize, ignorance is indeed a bliss. None of what you said, prooves that there is mystical talent that gives some people ability to get higher than other without this mystical talent. Science does not work like that. If there is hypothese, then it needs to be evaluated and needs to stand after multipronged critisism. There is currently no evidence about this mystical birth gave talent. Only known variables are: amount of practise and quality of practising. Unless there is clear and believeable evidence about brain sections that work better than average people, that are also unarguably birth related, then only reason to believe why not everyone can not be Jaedong level, is just practice issues. Now, I am no longer interested in with arguing people that are just plain stupid. User was warned for this post | ||
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joshboy42
Australia116 Posts
On March 08 2011 15:20 Torte de Lini wrote: Cool, a video with a bright yellow backdrop and uses imagery to comedically display his fast-spoken narration and downplays all factors that makes a "good game". Cool, a topic that has no opinion but rather tells us to watch the 3 minute and 50 seconds of an opinion they needed to be developed in order to justify why other topics of balance and gameplay flood our forums. I'd voice an opinion but this guy has lead his opinion onto insulting me because we have different views of good gameplay and a good game. tl:dr The video attempts to tell us that no matter how much we practice we cannot be a pro-gamer or those who are on the competitive scene despite numerous professionals claiming otherwise by their own persoanl experience that the video-creator has none of. Through the insults and the attempt to be vastly witty while also side-stepping an actual point, the video lends itself to be redundantly bad with its sub-par attempt of analogies to today's pop culture and its references. To conclude, practice does make perfect and just because this guy has a laissez-faire attitude doesn't mean I will equally give up playing a game and striving to be better that goes in conjunction with the uber-gamers that enjoy a challenge. I think I may need to sit you down and explain what tl:dr actually means.. | ||
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Disastorm
United States922 Posts
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TUski
United States1258 Posts
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Supamang
United States2298 Posts
Besides that though, it seemed kinda like a guy who takes himself too seriously. I dont get whats wrong with wanting a good story to go with the game? Hes talking like its a zero sum game. Some games have excellent stories and excellent gameplay. I havent bought a game for the story in a long time, but back when I played a lot of RPGs I know I enjoyed them. | ||
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joshboy42
Australia116 Posts
On March 09 2011 18:03 Supamang wrote: Im a little confused about the video. What was the original intent? Was it just a rant? He kinda went from "Noobs are ruining game development" to "You are a noob and will always horrible". I mean, besides the self-satisfied condescension and the generally verbose rambling, I do agree with some points of the video. I think its really annoying when people have a need to make themselves feel better by telling themselves that they lost because "they arent nerds, and if they played more theyd be better". Besides that though, it seemed kinda like a guy who takes himself too seriously. I dont get whats wrong with wanting a good story to go with the game? Hes talking like its a zero sum game. Some games have excellent stories and excellent gameplay. I havent bought a game for the story in a long time, but back when I played a lot of RPGs I know I enjoyed them. I think the original intent of the video is a guy venting that the influx of 'casual gamers' has forced game devs to dumb down their games to require less skill, more of a nostalgic look on the old 8-bit days when games were hella tough. As for this thread, he's trying to use it to say anyone who complains about balance is a noob because all your problems are skill related. I say it's not so black and white. There is plenty of misplaced and ill-informed QQ, but the game isn't perfect either. | ||
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Supamang
United States2298 Posts
On March 09 2011 16:09 Axeinst wrote: None of what you said, prooves that there is mystical talent that gives some people ability to get higher than other without this mystical talent. Science does not work like that. If there is hypothese, then it needs to be evaluated and needs to stand after multipronged critisism. There is currently no evidence about this mystical birth gave talent. Only known variables are: amount of practise and quality of practising. Unless there is clear and believeable evidence about brain sections that work better than average people, that are also unarguably birth related, then only reason to believe why not everyone can not be Jaedong level, is just practice issues. Now, I am no longer interested in with arguing people that are just plain stupid. User was warned for this post No offense, but I think you should put more weight in common sense in this discussion instead of the scientific method. And even if we talk about science and statistics, many things are not 100% proven. They are proven beyond a reasonable doubt, so I dont know why you are demanding for this "proof". It is pretty clear that some people are born more talented than others (IQ tests, physical handicaps, mental handicaps are all "evidence" of that). Some people will always be better at certain things than others. I will never be as good as LeBron James in basketball. My genes do not allow me to be as tall as him, they dont allow me to be as strong or as big as him (trust me, I work out at least 3 times a week, but I am still smaller than some people who work out less). I will never be able to drive to the hoop as well as him no matter how hard I try. I think its ridiculous that you require such a high confidence level to believe that at least some of us here will never be able to be as good as Jaedong. The fact that there are so many people who want to be the next NBA star, the next MVP quarterback, the next top SC player, etc. coupled with the fact that the overwhelming majority of them fail despite how hard they try suggests that some people are naturally more talented. I know what youre going to say. "None of this is prooof! I need proof!" The burden of proof isn't on me. Im gonna say it again, the fact that superstar players and geniuses have been recognized throughout the history of mankind may not be absolute proof that some people are born more gifted, but each one of those geniuses DO serve as supporting evidence. The fact of the matter is, in the current state of things most people arent as good as Jaedong, or Lebron, or Payton Manning. Telling us that we need to supply YOU with proof and not the other way around is like those religious guys telling you to go prove that God DOESNT exist. Our evidence that some people are born more talented than others is the world as it exists today. How about you show us your evidence that everyone can be as talented as anyone? | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
On March 09 2011 18:34 joshboy42 wrote: I think the original intent of the video is a guy venting that the influx of 'casual gamers' has forced game devs to dumb down their games to require less skill, more of a nostalgic look on the old 8-bit days when games were hella tough. As for this thread, he's trying to use it to say anyone who complains about balance is a noob because all your problems are skill related. I say it's not so black and white. There is plenty of misplaced and ill-informed QQ, but the game isn't perfect either. The real problem is there is more misplaced and ill-informed QQ than there are balance problems. If lose you a PvT to mass Marauder and you complain that Marauders are imba you must be a noob, this is because anyone using deductive logic would find a reasonable way to defeat mass marauder with little trouble. Its easier to cry imbalance than it is to workout a solution to your problems. | ||
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Axeinst
Belize281 Posts
In sc2, there is no known things like that. | ||
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joshboy42
Australia116 Posts
On March 09 2011 19:00 Zombo Joe wrote: The real problem is there is more misplaced and ill-informed QQ than there are balance problems. If lose you a PvT to mass Marauder and you complain that Marauders are imba you must be a noob, this is because anyone using deductive logic would find a reasonable way to defeat mass marauder with little trouble. Its easier to cry imbalance than it is to workout a solution to your problems. You have a very good point. However there's the other side of the spectrum, where a pro gamer comes in with an observation on balance and ten thousand bronze noobs tell him why's he's wrong. | ||
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freestalker
469 Posts
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FakeDouble
Australia676 Posts
So appropriate posting this after yesterday's epic semifinals. | ||
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zappa372
Chile365 Posts
Sorry, think we were talking about korean bw progaming, I mean, people at the end of the curve of skills, not at the 70 or 80 percentile. Anyway, there's pretty much evidence for the fact that your brain wires at your first years of life, and progressively loses the capacity of re-wire as the time passes by. If you are a JD, and you're born in an enviroment that develops such talent during the most part of your life, there's a good probability that you would become a progamer, but if you lack of that combination of genetic material and rich enviroment, sorry, you'll never be a progamer (skill-wise, obviously). As we are talking about korean bw scene, which is the skill-cap of bw nowadays, you couldn't reach those levels of skill if you aren't born and raised in Korea (WCG domination anyone?), they have "talent" because they have every component to develop that talent, but, to note, not every korean progamer reaches that level. Edit: About that basketball argument. Basketball's skills are easier to relate to fenotypic characteristics that Starcraft ones. Have you watched the NatGeo documental on korean bw-scene? There was a neuroscientist interested on how much different were the EEGs of progamers and casual gamers while playing. The difference was abrupt, the brains of progamers were optimized to play the game at a high skill level. Those brains became what they are, there's just so much involved on the talent notion; as I said, it's not a gift or a reachable goal, it's determinism (or destiny if you don't understand the exquisite interaction of multiple variables) | ||
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Axeinst
Belize281 Posts
It has nothing to do with being korean, for an example Idra recently said that it is issue of proper teamhouse behavior and other things like that, it is not issue of genetics. About those EEGs, their brains have been shaped to that point, that they distinguish themselfs from average players brains. There is still no reason to believe that anything in this sense is gift in born. | ||
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zappa372
Chile365 Posts
On March 09 2011 21:21 Axeinst wrote: That has nothing to do with the fact, that every single humanbeing with normal intelligence are able to become top notch pro gamer. It is just matter of proper training and that training must be fitted perfectly for that persons needs. It has nothing to do with being korean, for an example Idra recently said that it is issue of proper teamhouse behavior and other things like that, it is not issue of genetics. About those EEGs, their brains have been shaped to that point, that they distinguish themselfs from average players brains. There is still no reason to believe that anything in this sense is gift in born. You really don't understand the relation about fenotype and genotype right? As an example, people sometimes are born with higher or lower amounts of neurotransmitters (dopamine, acetylcholine, etc) that determine some neural development. It appears that between us, is just me, without affirmating as a fact my point of view (but just providing some related evidence), the one who's not taking for granted the argument. You just made your argument a fact by just saying that is a fact. More interesting, Idra himself was on CJ house, did he became, with all that proper teamhouse behavior, an ace player? He just started too late his carreer as a progamer, Idra has some serious skill, don't misunderstand me, but he, in that time, started a race that he couldn't win. | ||
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Axeinst
Belize281 Posts
Oh, and i totally know things about fenotypes and genotypes dont come to teach me about them. But the thing is, that fenotype doesnt provide information about genotype even though fenotype can change when genotype changes but the quality or amount of mutations cannot be determined by looking at fenotype. | ||
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zappa372
Chile365 Posts
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Axeinst
Belize281 Posts
On March 09 2011 21:58 zappa372 wrote: Ok I think you just trolled me, I won't argue with you anymore, learn a bit and then start arguing, sir. Can some moderator ban people like this? | ||
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Axeinst
Belize281 Posts
While there is absolutely no evidence for claim that to be Jaedong you need to be genetically gifted, it is logical and reasonable to assume that you need only proper training. Just like with concept of god, it is only logical to assume that there is no god because there is no evidence for it. | ||
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