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On February 27 2011 03:32 Creem wrote:
It's quite a big difference to dodge banelings and 2+ seconds into storm since you can see when it happens and you have a much bigger marginal to react.
Vs EMP you don't really have time to spread considering you don't see it coming (range 10 lol) and it does full (100%!!) damage instantly.
Hopefully you can see the (huge) difference.
There are two possible solutions to your problem. The first would be to see it coming - by map control, scouting, observers, whatever. The second solution would be to just never let your army stand as a ball, always spread out a little. That way, you're not "caught with your pants down" if you didn't see the ghost coming for whatever reason.
Honestly, if you leave all your templars in a big cloud in your army and they all get emp'd ... you deserve to lose.
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Poll: Amulet change - good or bad?Bad (148) 65% Good (81) 35% 229 total votes Your vote: Amulet change - good or bad? (Vote): Good
(Vote): Bad
Poll: Bunker nerf - good or bad?Good (142) 87% Bad (22) 13% 164 total votes Your vote: Bunker nerf - good or bad? (Vote): Good
(Vote): Bad
Poll: Stimpack nerf - good or bad?Good (134) 84% Bad (26) 16% 160 total votes Your vote: Stimpack nerf - good or bad? (Vote): Good
(Vote): Bad
Poll: Infestor changes - good or bad?Good (91) 54% Bad (76) 46% 167 total votes Your vote: Infestor changes - good or bad? (Vote): Good
(Vote): Bad
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I haven't even got to a point where I can test the new infestor cause like 2/3rds of my games have been cheese.
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On February 27 2011 03:56 Lurk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 03:32 Creem wrote:
It's quite a big difference to dodge banelings and 2+ seconds into storm since you can see when it happens and you have a much bigger marginal to react.
Vs EMP you don't really have time to spread considering you don't see it coming (range 10 lol) and it does full (100%!!) damage instantly.
Hopefully you can see the (huge) difference. There are two possible solutions to your problem. The first would be to see it coming - by map control, scouting, observers, whatever. The second solution would be to just never let your army stand as a ball, always spread out a little. That way, you're not "caught with your pants down" if you didn't see the ghost coming for whatever reason. Honestly, if you leave all your templars in a big cloud in your army and they all get emp'd ... you deserve to lose.
Like-wise with templar...
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Why did you lump all the infestor changes into one poll, there's three distinct, and not necessarily dependent on each other, changes, one that it lasts half the time but does damage twice as fast, the second that it's now a missile and third that the hp is increased. I mean polls are stupid to begin with but polls which lump together distinctly different options are even worse.
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They should be nerfing salvage and not bunker build time. 40 seconds? bunkers already take forever to build when I see an attack coming (this is on normal blizz ladder maps) Not all terrans use bunkers to bunker rush, make it more costly to bunker rush. Stop punishing terrans who just use bunkers to not die from things like 4 gate or 3 gate robo.
undecided about infestor changes yet
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On February 26 2011 21:28 ckukner wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 21:24 Thezzy wrote:On February 26 2011 21:16 vvJustice wrote:
Yea I'll just feedback your medivac while you drop a couple of blue flame hellions in my mineral line. Also yes Protoss lategame is still very powerful with all my colossus and chargelots while you can crank out 13 vikings to one shot my colossus. The HT's being used 99% of the time is also amusing. Are you serious or are you joking? I won't be mad I just have to know. 13 Vikings means the ground army is going to be a lot smaller and if the Terran is really going overboard with his Vikings, just tweak your unit composition accordingly. Whenever Bio was a significant portion of the army (and with Mech being terrible against P except for Hellions that is almost always the case) the Storms were never far away. And again, you can still use Storms! You just can't insta-warp them in anymore. You'll just have to bring HTs with your army and have them generate the needed energy along on the way. Storm is still fine and so were 75 energy HTs but warp-in 75 energy HTs were not. I would've been fine with if Blizz found another way to remove warp-in storms but keep HTs at 75 energy but as it stands I'm fine with it for now, we'll have to see how it goes. As for drops... So I can drop Blue Flame Hellions in your mineral line? What exactly is to prevent you from dropping Chargelots into mine? Lulz did you really compare BF Hellions with chargelot drops. First Medivac is a must have unit so you don't have to pay for the dropship. And 2 BF hellion can splash and kill like 20 probes in 10 seconds. How much damage do you think chargelots will do in 10 seconds
Well, I reckon zealots'll hit each fleeing SCV once before they run outta gas.
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I think the bad thing about Amulet nerf is the thing that after a big PvT battle when T wins the battle his "MM leftovers" can potentially snipe down a nexus/kill a lot of probes at a nearby expansion.
It's crucial to have HTs warping in a defensive measure (this role could be played by photon cannons, but seriously, how many can you plant). P isn't able to attack a repaired planetary fortess with his "leftovers" and an orbital can float away until the heat is over. In that matter HTs serve a role similar to defensive tanks, not letting small groups of units do incredible damage lategame.
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LF> HT with:Tassadar style passive attacking
HP Increase (because EMP is too devastating on shields)
Stalker Speed
JKJK, or that'd be interesting to see.. Really interesting.
I remember Idra and Artosis would like to see immortal / HT play from Protoss (discussed in Imbalanced!). That's probably never going to happen now. In regards to drop play, assuming amulet is removed, Terran MM drop would be far much stronger than it already cost efficient is. In one scenario on two base toss: They'll most likely have 5-6 gates and a Robo (as it is very overall a good composition). That means 5-6 are available to warp-in against a MM army. They'll get ripped to shreds and it'll become a base rush. Muta play is also going to be very powerful. I don't see Toss getting double robo anymore because they need more stalkers to counter air units. This is where mutas become very powerful. These are of course all scenarios what would probably happen. So that's why I hope amulet is not removed.
Overall warp-in storms is the problem correct? Templars would become a difficult investment with amulet removed. Pop in 150 gas, get unit with no use for a arguably a long time. Sentries have a ready to use forcefield and that's why they're very efficient.
Instead, I'd LOVE to see High Templars start with ~55 energy free of charge. That means spotting a drop ship gives Toss a chance to warp in some Templars by the time it arrives for a single feedback / storm. Similarly to Muta harass play.That means you have to warp a couple seconds ahead instead of clutch warping in Templars. There are so many interesting build/composition in line if HT was built this way. 150 gas is a lot to Toss, especially if it can't be ready to use and that would justify a built in "~55 free - passive" HT.
Any feedback would be great - adjustments - and maybe a implementation.
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Poll: Do you think Amulet removal REALLY means......HTs can never start with 75 mana (71) 91% ...HTs start with 75 mana (7) 9% 78 total votes Your vote: Do you think Amulet removal REALLY means... (Vote): ...HTs start with 75 mana
(Vote): ...HTs can never start with 75 mana
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Are they really taking out the Archon toilet?
Let's be honest, how many games out there actually reach a point where the Archon toilet can be effectively executed to the point that it impacts balance?
Archon toilet is the most entertaining strategy the community has produced in recent memory and Blizzard is ALREADY trying to kill it?
What if you cast a defensive Vortex and it's right next to your base? For 1.5 seconds, your enemies are invincible and will just flat out kill every structure in their surroundings.
If they are really conflicted about it, how about just take out the Mothership altogether and give us Arbiters? God knows we will never figure out a proper use for Mothership, ever, at this rate.
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On February 27 2011 03:28 Kazang wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 03:25 Erpy wrote:
I don't understand PTR? Some kind of test server? Public Test Realm, it's a term from WoW.
Thanks dude!
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Pointless patch is pointless.
User was warned for this post.
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On February 27 2011 04:06 dukethegold wrote:
Are they really taking out the Archon toilet?
Let's be honest, how many games out there actually reach a point where the Archon toilet can be effectively executed to the point that it impacts balance?
Archon toilet is the most entertaining strategy the community has produced in recent memory and Blizzard is ALREADY trying to kill it?
What if you cast a defensive Vortex and it's right next to your base? For 1.5 seconds, your enemies are invincible and will just flat out kill every structure in their surroundings.
If they are really conflicted about it, how about just take out the Mothership altogether and give us Arbiters? God knows we will never figure out a proper use for Mothership, ever, at this rate.
Ya this is a very bad change and really pointless. If your opponent is dumb enough to run his entire army in the vortex when he sees you have colossus/storm/archon then he should instantly lose his whole army. Its not like its hard to dodge a vortex
I'm torn on the amulet change, I think most terrans can agree that late game PvT feels very difficult, while early game is much easier. A big part of this is the warp in mechanic with HT having storm instantly. I think maybe a middle ground can be found, maybe no upgrade but HT start with 70 energy? or 65 60 idk. This feels like a little to much if HT only start with 50 and you have to wait 44 seconds for storm.
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so they nerf uneccesary protoss stuff yet dont fix pvp LOLOLOLOLOLOL
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On February 27 2011 04:06 dukethegold wrote:
Are they really taking out the Archon toilet?
Let's be honest, how many games out there actually reach a point where the Archon toilet can be effectively executed to the point that it impacts balance?
Archon toilet is the most entertaining strategy the community has produced in recent memory and Blizzard is ALREADY trying to kill it?
What if you cast a defensive Vortex and it's right next to your base? For 1.5 seconds, your enemies are invincible and will just flat out kill every structure in their surroundings.
If they are really conflicted about it, how about just take out the Mothership altogether and give us Arbiters? God knows we will never figure out a proper use for Mothership, ever, at this rate.
I have to agree with this. Archon toilet was by no means used to often and wasn't breaking the game. It is just an entertaining strat that is ultimately hard to pull off in 99% of games.
Blizz must not like fun...... 
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damnit, and i said i was going to wait till 1.3 to play again. Damn my zerg tears.
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On February 27 2011 04:20 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 04:06 dukethegold wrote:
Are they really taking out the Archon toilet?
Let's be honest, how many games out there actually reach a point where the Archon toilet can be effectively executed to the point that it impacts balance?
Archon toilet is the most entertaining strategy the community has produced in recent memory and Blizzard is ALREADY trying to kill it?
What if you cast a defensive Vortex and it's right next to your base? For 1.5 seconds, your enemies are invincible and will just flat out kill every structure in their surroundings.
If they are really conflicted about it, how about just take out the Mothership altogether and give us Arbiters? God knows we will never figure out a proper use for Mothership, ever, at this rate. I have to agree with this. Archon toilet was by no means used to often and wasn't breaking the game. It is just an entertaining strat that is ultimately hard to pull off in 99% of games. Blizz must not like fun......
Maybe in bronze it was hard to pull off and was fun, but in higher level games there is no fun when your 200 supply army being killed in 0.5 seconds. And yeah it's very hard to pull off, just make a mothership, few archons and press a button.
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On February 27 2011 03:28 The KY wrote:
Storm outranges EMP.
get your facts straight, the Range of HT Spells is Inferior in both Range & Radius to Ghost Spells.
if Terran gets feedbacked, blame yourself to not beeing able to micro properly.
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On February 27 2011 03:37 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 03:28 The KY wrote:On February 27 2011 03:15 Mikelius wrote:On February 27 2011 03:14 Existor wrote:On February 27 2011 03:07 Zuxo wrote:
Ghost:Spawns with emp and 50 energy and can upgrade moebius reactor(+25 energy when spawns). Emp outrange feedback. Can cloak, snipe and nuke.
Templar: Spawns with feedback and 50 energy. Can get storm(200/200) but not amulet(+25 energy) and therefor has to wait 44 sec to storm.
Ghost>Templar (as before but now even more).
Mass colossi begin! Ghost - 150/150 cost Templar - 50/150 cost, so you can drop one zealot with him EMP = up to half the life of a protoss army Snipe (2x) = dead Zealot or HT Ghost = faster than Zealot Ghost = can shoot and does not depend exclusively on energy. Storm = up to 100% of the life of a terran army. Storm outranges EMP. I'm not saying that this (test region) balance change is good. What I do know though is that when a protoss goes colossi I'm like 'ok cool I can deal with this'. But when I see HT's it's a little more 'oh FUCK I'm so fucking dead'. Do you try to kill Ghosts with Storms or...? I don't understand O_o
No I mean that unless you have a much better position (and tvp is, after all, a pretty positioning focused match up, 1 good arc can win the game) those storms are going down on your bio and EMP is damage limitation.
Show nested quote +Oh and you forgot
2 energyless HT's = Archon
Not saying archons are great, but at least be a little bit objective.
Zealot change is probably good but I already have a fair amount of trouble with mass chargelots and have never held that they were underpowered. Mostly because they DON'T DIE. Do you kite them at all?
To kite 30 zealots with upgrades you need a fucking airplane runway to get away from them. If you have enough medivacs it's fine, but it's more the aforementioned not dying thing. I've always thought of zealots as great units just because they force you to kite; if don't then they're going to do a lot of damage. In small numbers it's never an issue but I just have a little trouble against large numbers of them late game. Charge and FF; shudder. I like the change in a way, and I know I'm probably alone on this but I don't see it as necessary.
I remember that there was a PvT game that used BCs as a surprise tech.
I don't know what about TvZ but TvT has a use for BCs, haven't you seen them used in TvT?
They have a use for them but I wouldn't call them common. They appear in those horrible stand off games where everyone has too many tanks and vikings to ever move anywhere.
As for surprise tech...I don't like it.
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EPT
