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On February 26 2011 08:45 Chill wrote:Everyone complains so much. I'm happy to play on new maps for a little bit, even if it was the ideal choice 
For me personally the biggest problem with these is not that they're bad, but that Blizzard discourages top players from laddering, as a LOT of tournaments started to use GSL maps. Blizzard really needs to put them in the map pool, I don't even care anymore whether or not other maps will be good.
But still, it's probably a step somewhat in the right direction.
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I think Blizz is getting sort of lazy regarding new maps. I would like to see some unique features of maps other than just adding rocks all over the place. Neutral buildings could be one. They could add the ruins of a base as an expansion with a couple towers but instead of building a new building there you can just use a worker to repair it. Also things from WC3 like warp gates to allow quick access to other places of the map or mercenary camps might be interesting but maybe far-fetched.
Shattered Temple seems to be the only decent one. All of the maps have spread out thirds which make it difficult to go into late game.
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(4)Shakuras Plateau
This map we decided to remove for a different reason. There isn't a huge problem with this map, but we felt there aren't enough interesting features of this map. The natural expansion is easy to take and defend; there are only two possible attack paths only one of which is generally used, and main bases aren't easy to harass. For a change, we wanted to replace this relatively plain map with something new.
The fact that is one of the reason to substract Shakuras Plateau make me sick.
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This is really huge. They got rid of all the smallish maps. I think the new maps are quite good.
Only thing that still sucks is Delta (when not cross) and Metalopolis cross.
They should exchange Delta for Shakuras or remove close spawn positions from Delta. Also removing the close ground spawns in Meta would be great.
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On February 26 2011 19:53 Bashrai wrote:Show nested quote +(4)Shakuras Plateau
This map we decided to remove for a different reason. There isn't a huge problem with this map, but we felt there aren't enough interesting features of this map. The natural expansion is easy to take and defend; there are only two possible attack paths only one of which is generally used, and main bases aren't easy to harass. For a change, we wanted to replace this relatively plain map with something new. The fact that is one of the reason to substract Shakuras Plateau make me sick.
That seems like such a fickle reason. Yea it's plain, but the map played well, and people liked it. How do they possibly think they are doing us a favor by removing it? Honestly who was complaining? It was highly regarded as one of Blizzard's best maps next to Xel'naga, but I guess there wasn't enough glitter and flashing lights on it to keep people interested? I really don't understand.
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On February 26 2011 19:46 barth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 08:45 Chill wrote:Everyone complains so much. I'm happy to play on new maps for a little bit, even if it was the ideal choice For me personally the biggest problem with these is not that they're bad, but that Blizzard discourages top players from laddering, as a LOT of tournaments started to use GSL maps. Blizzard really needs to put them in the map pool, I don't even care anymore whether or not other maps will be good. But still, it's probably a step somewhat in the right direction.
You cant expect blizzard to let their maps be dictated by some tournament. They will always make their own maps. Imo at least the smaller online tournaments should take the new blizzard maps in their map pool, and remove the blizzard maps that were removed from ladder.
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On February 26 2011 19:46 barth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 08:45 Chill wrote:Everyone complains so much. I'm happy to play on new maps for a little bit, even if it was the ideal choice For me personally the biggest problem with these is not that they're bad, but that Blizzard discourages top players from laddering, as a LOT of tournaments started to use GSL maps. Blizzard really needs to put them in the map pool, I don't even care anymore whether or not other maps will be good. But still, it's probably a step somewhat in the right direction.
You have to realize that this isn't blizzard's main concern, what maps are being played in leagues or not. They will update the map pool with what they feel is best for everyone in general and not what other tournaments feel is best or top players feel are best. If people are really concerned about the difference in map pool it is the responsibility of the tournaments to change their map pool to make them similar to ladder, not Blizzard's. Blizzard is a huge company and they have a much bigger user base to take into consideration then just the top players.
Stop kidding yourself that Blizzard is going to add maps to the ladder pool and make balance changes to the game just based on top players. We should have all learned by now that they balance the game for everyone.
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Do the people who decide on the map pool even play this game?
Most of these maps seem ridiculously bad.
Slag pits close position is almost the same as steppes and you have to build a ridiculously long simcity just to protect your natural if you're in pvz. All zerg needs to do is make 20 lings or handful of roach and make you waste every single ounce of energy your sentries have to hold it off.
Not to mention taking a third is wtf hard. Why is there even rocks at the gold? WTF?!
Haven't played typhon yet but it looks like another "lol good luck defending your natural, you only need 20+ forcefields to do it" situation.
Backwater Gulch seems like a step up from blistering but why even bother adding rocks to the expo? Why can't there just be 1 ramp?
The only new map that seems like it could be decent is the new LT.
But what is with the rock fetish? And why aren't the new GSL maps here yet? Terminus is 'jizz-in-my-pants' good.
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On February 26 2011 19:53 Bashrai wrote:Show nested quote +(4)Shakuras Plateau
This map we decided to remove for a different reason. There isn't a huge problem with this map, but we felt there aren't enough interesting features of this map. The natural expansion is easy to take and defend; there are only two possible attack paths only one of which is generally used, and main bases aren't easy to harass. For a change, we wanted to replace this relatively plain map with something new. The fact that is one of the reason to substract Shakuras Plateau make me sick.
Do you have a source for this?
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On February 26 2011 20:03 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 19:53 Bashrai wrote:(4)Shakuras Plateau
This map we decided to remove for a different reason. There isn't a huge problem with this map, but we felt there aren't enough interesting features of this map. The natural expansion is easy to take and defend; there are only two possible attack paths only one of which is generally used, and main bases aren't easy to harass. For a change, we wanted to replace this relatively plain map with something new. The fact that is one of the reason to substract Shakuras Plateau make me sick. Do you have a source for this?
http://www.shacknews.com/article/67645/starcraft-2-adds-and-removes
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On February 26 2011 20:00 Kappa09 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 19:46 barth wrote:On February 26 2011 08:45 Chill wrote:Everyone complains so much. I'm happy to play on new maps for a little bit, even if it was the ideal choice For me personally the biggest problem with these is not that they're bad, but that Blizzard discourages top players from laddering, as a LOT of tournaments started to use GSL maps. Blizzard really needs to put them in the map pool, I don't even care anymore whether or not other maps will be good. But still, it's probably a step somewhat in the right direction. You have to realize that this isn't blizzard's main concern, what maps are being played in leagues or not. They will update the map pool with what they feel is best for everyone in general and not what other tournaments feel is best or top players feel are best. If people are really concerned about the difference in map pool it is the responsibility of the tournaments to change their map pool to make them similar to ladder, not Blizzard's. Blizzard is a huge company and they have a much bigger user base to take into consideration then just the top players. Stop kidding yourself that Blizzard is going to add maps to the ladder pool and make balance changes to the game just based on top players. We should have all learned by now that they balance the game for everyone.
Don't YOU want to play top players? Because myself and probably 90% of other people definitely do. I'm not talking about making it better for them. They will play custom games and stop laddering completely, like some already did. The "big user base" will suffer from the change.
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Btw at the people complaining about the new maps after having played like 2 games or even no games at all:
I very well remember how people were hating on Xel'Naga caverns after its release, even more than they are now on the new maps. "Impossible for zerg, undefendable natural" and so on. And a month later everyone was like "most balanced map in the map pool!" and it was suddenly the most played map in tournaments.
And so far the new ladder maps deifinitely look like a step forward to me.
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So they removed Shakuras. Wait what? I don't want blinking lights and 10 destructible rocks, I want solid, balanced maps.
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When I first tested slag pits I was like "wtf is this even realz?". It's so frigging hard to expand in this map that I'm already predicting it will be vetoed like by 99% of competive players. Even taking your natural is a joke.
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Rocks dont rock. Just sayin'.
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On February 26 2011 20:07 barth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 20:00 Kappa09 wrote:On February 26 2011 19:46 barth wrote:On February 26 2011 08:45 Chill wrote:Everyone complains so much. I'm happy to play on new maps for a little bit, even if it was the ideal choice For me personally the biggest problem with these is not that they're bad, but that Blizzard discourages top players from laddering, as a LOT of tournaments started to use GSL maps. Blizzard really needs to put them in the map pool, I don't even care anymore whether or not other maps will be good. But still, it's probably a step somewhat in the right direction. You have to realize that this isn't blizzard's main concern, what maps are being played in leagues or not. They will update the map pool with what they feel is best for everyone in general and not what other tournaments feel is best or top players feel are best. If people are really concerned about the difference in map pool it is the responsibility of the tournaments to change their map pool to make them similar to ladder, not Blizzard's. Blizzard is a huge company and they have a much bigger user base to take into consideration then just the top players. Stop kidding yourself that Blizzard is going to add maps to the ladder pool and make balance changes to the game just based on top players. We should have all learned by now that they balance the game for everyone. Don't YOU want to play top players? Because myself and probably 90% of other people definitely do. I'm not talking about making it better for them. They will play custom games and stop laddering completely, like some already did. The "big user base" will suffer from the change.
Sure I would love to see top players stick around and ladder, so we could run into them once in a while.
However, it doesn't matter what I want or what you want. This is Blizzard's game and they aren't going to be influenced by tournaments to make game/map decisions, no matter the size of the tournament. Really it is their reputation that is on the line and not the tournaments. If they were to put GSL maps and all the lower leagues could not cope with such maps and got frustrated with the game, then they would maybe quit and never play again and Blizzard would not be able to sell them copies of the expansion for example. They are first and foremost a business and they have to make decisions that are for the better of the entire community, not just the e-sports enthusiasts and pro gamers.
I also think the community is to quick to bash on the new maps just because they aren't the GSL maps (the maps they wanted to see in the pool). Sure not all of the new maps are perfect, but some of them look like they have potential. It is to early to tell, so let's just wait it out and see and who knows maybe in a little while, all the tournaments will be using these new maps.
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Shakura turned out to be a poor map once people figured out how to abuse the structure. ZvP on it is very difficult as P can get very easy 3 bases and can't really be harassed and ZvT tunnel spawns was even worse. Actually the tunnel was very bad ZvP as well.
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None of these maps you can take a safe natural anymore. Gonna start having to learn one base all ins, or just not ladder.
On February 26 2011 20:19 Kappa09 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 20:07 barth wrote:On February 26 2011 20:00 Kappa09 wrote:On February 26 2011 19:46 barth wrote:On February 26 2011 08:45 Chill wrote:Everyone complains so much. I'm happy to play on new maps for a little bit, even if it was the ideal choice For me personally the biggest problem with these is not that they're bad, but that Blizzard discourages top players from laddering, as a LOT of tournaments started to use GSL maps. Blizzard really needs to put them in the map pool, I don't even care anymore whether or not other maps will be good. But still, it's probably a step somewhat in the right direction. You have to realize that this isn't blizzard's main concern, what maps are being played in leagues or not. They will update the map pool with what they feel is best for everyone in general and not what other tournaments feel is best or top players feel are best. If people are really concerned about the difference in map pool it is the responsibility of the tournaments to change their map pool to make them similar to ladder, not Blizzard's. Blizzard is a huge company and they have a much bigger user base to take into consideration then just the top players. Stop kidding yourself that Blizzard is going to add maps to the ladder pool and make balance changes to the game just based on top players. We should have all learned by now that they balance the game for everyone. Don't YOU want to play top players? Because myself and probably 90% of other people definitely do. I'm not talking about making it better for them. They will play custom games and stop laddering completely, like some already did. The "big user base" will suffer from the change. Sure I would love to see top players stick around and ladder, so we could run into them once in a while. However, it doesn't matter what I want or what you want. This is Blizzard's game and they aren't going to be influenced by tournaments to make game/map decisions, no matter the size of the tournament. Really it is their reputation that is on the line and not the tournaments. If they were to put GSL maps and all the lower leagues could not cope with such maps and got frustrated with the game, then they would maybe quit and never play again and Blizzard would not be able to sell them copies of the expansion for example. They are first and foremost a business and they have to make decisions that are for the better of the entire community, not just the e-sports enthusiasts and pro gamers. I also think the community is to quick to bash on the new maps just because they aren't the GSL maps (the maps they wanted to see in the pool). Sure not all of the new maps are perfect, but some of them look like they have potential. It is to early to tell, so let's just wait it out and see and who knows maybe in a little while, all the tournaments will be using these new maps.
The new maps are extremely complicated, 3 routes of attack at the natural, map abuse potential and impossible to defend on, I really don't understand why new people would like playing on these maps.
Good players who have played a ton of games know the rules of making a good map, e.g Games should not be won on map abuse. When a map breaks these rules you know that the games are going to turn out really frustrating. Its even worse for new players who have no idea how to defend tanks on a cliff, etc.
On February 26 2011 20:13 Redox wrote:
Btw at the people complaining about the new maps after having played like 2 games or even no games at all:
I very well remember how people were hating on Xel'Naga caverns after its release, even more than they are now on the new maps. "Impossible for zerg, undefendable natural" and so on. And a month later everyone was like "most balanced map in the map pool!" and it was suddenly the most played map in tournaments.
And so far the new ladder maps deifinitely look like a step forward to me.
Xel Naga Caverns is still really bad. The thing is, most of the other maps are way worse.
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"(4) Slag Pits
Metalopolis was one of two favorite maps across the different skill levels of players. We decided to introduce a very similar map, but slightly more macro heavy. We took out Shakuras Plateau, which was a very plain macro map, and added this map instead. Some of the key features of this map are the low ground high yield expansions, the 2 lines of shrub area that can be used to position units, as well as the low ground watch tower that watches over all of the low ground center."
WTF BLIZZARD ARE YOU EVEN LISTENING TO YOURSELF? SLAG PITS IS THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF A MACRO MAP!!!!!!! GARRR RAGE!
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There are 4 maps that have awful naturals and really difficult third bases. I don't understand why they would fix Lost Temple so well, yet manage to leave all the glaring imbalances in Delta Quadrant. I'm still up in the air about Typhon, but it's the only one of the 4 I haven't banned because I've so far experienced that the open area allows for better surrounds, while the others are just terrible.
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So when can we start our own ladder. Fuck you Blizzard, your holding the game back, im so annoyed.
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EPT
