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Before you post, read the title of this thread slowly and out loud. |
On February 23 2011 19:22 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 19:02 Buddhist wrote:On February 23 2011 19:01 Defacer wrote:
Since when did "Live" = good, anyway?
King of the Beta wasn't live, had a shitload of hiccups, aired at like 3 in the morning for no good damn reason, but was still fun to watch because of the casters and the players.
There's a ton of factors that determine whether something is high quality or worthwhile. Sheesh. Give these guys a chance.
Maybe if NASL promised Day9, people would care less. Gretorp and InControl aren't horrible, but they are no Tastosis :/ no offense to them. Point is, Day9 on a good day, or Tastosis in general, can turn paint drying into a fun experience (because they are comedians). Hey, work in progress right? InControl and Gretorp will improve, and they already mentioned they'll have guest casters. The stream quality is mint. The prize pool will draw great players. It's a good start, considering they're beginning from scratch.
Yes, the stream quality and prize pool are impressive. InControl and Gretorp will do a more than satisfactory job. We're merely giving our concerns on some other issues. The NASL in general will be a huge success, I have no doubt.
On February 23 2011 19:22 Xeris wrote:
I've explained this already for about 10 pages in this thread. Now, nobody is confused :p
I'm pretty sure more than 95% of people who want information on NASL from TL are going to open this thread, read the OP, and nothing more than that.
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On February 23 2011 19:15 karpo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 23 2011 19:09 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 19:02 m3rciless wrote:
The stance on koreans participating is somewhat worrying to me. By not allowing koreans in, or making it difficult for them to participate, I think there will increasingly be the sense that NASL is the AHL to GSL's NHL. Even if the foreigners are competitive with the best koreans, which im sure some will be, without head to head confrontation this reputation will be hard to shake. Is this something the league has considered or sees a legitimate concern? The GSL makes it very difficult for foreigners to compete in it, I don't really see the difference. And why would we just assume that the GSL is synonymous to the NHL? Again, if we actually look at neutral tournaments that have had Koreans & Foreigners playing in it, we've seen that: a) Koreans are not invincible b) Foreigners might actually be as good or better than MOST Koreans. - Koreans were beaten by foreigners at Blizzcon - Koreans couldn't even make top 3 at Dreamhack - Idra & Jinro repeatedly beat Koreans in the GSL (the only foreigners in Code S have been successful repeatedly). Again. People misrepresent the strength of Koreans. They don't realize that it's really difficult for a foreigner to just be immediately successful in Korea. Starcraft isn't a game where you can just play on a whim at a high level. If you just moved to Korea from your home and have to adjust quickly to a completely different way of life, there's no way you're going to compete well against players who live & practice in a Korean environment. Was Jinro successful in GSL 1 and 2? Nope... he wasn't used to Korea yet. How about IdrA? He did nothing for 1 year in Korea as he was getting used to the lifestyle. Once Jinro had a few months to acclimate himself to the lifestyle, he's consistently a top 5 player in Korea. IdrA is also one of the top players in Korea. So: 2 of the 2 foreigners who have been in Korea for an extended period of time have been hugely successful in GSL. That's a 100% success rate. Give any top foreigner 3-4 months and I can guarantee they will be in Code S and successful. Just watch how Ret and HuK will perform in the next GSL (this season they probably won't do so well, but I can almost guarantee they will dominate next season). This reeks of reverse fanboyism. Sure some foreigners are doing good, but the whole post kinda overexaggerates how well foreigners are doing vs koreans.
I quite agree, we have no idea. Neither if koreans are better nor if it is foreigners.
But, sorry to repeat myself, it is very important to know if people who don't speak english can be selected. Not only for korean players but also for many EU, chinese and south american players.
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On February 23 2011 19:28 Bubulefou wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 19:15 karpo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 23 2011 19:09 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 19:02 m3rciless wrote:
The stance on koreans participating is somewhat worrying to me. By not allowing koreans in, or making it difficult for them to participate, I think there will increasingly be the sense that NASL is the AHL to GSL's NHL. Even if the foreigners are competitive with the best koreans, which im sure some will be, without head to head confrontation this reputation will be hard to shake. Is this something the league has considered or sees a legitimate concern? The GSL makes it very difficult for foreigners to compete in it, I don't really see the difference. And why would we just assume that the GSL is synonymous to the NHL? Again, if we actually look at neutral tournaments that have had Koreans & Foreigners playing in it, we've seen that: a) Koreans are not invincible b) Foreigners might actually be as good or better than MOST Koreans. - Koreans were beaten by foreigners at Blizzcon - Koreans couldn't even make top 3 at Dreamhack - Idra & Jinro repeatedly beat Koreans in the GSL (the only foreigners in Code S have been successful repeatedly). Again. People misrepresent the strength of Koreans. They don't realize that it's really difficult for a foreigner to just be immediately successful in Korea. Starcraft isn't a game where you can just play on a whim at a high level. If you just moved to Korea from your home and have to adjust quickly to a completely different way of life, there's no way you're going to compete well against players who live & practice in a Korean environment. Was Jinro successful in GSL 1 and 2? Nope... he wasn't used to Korea yet. How about IdrA? He did nothing for 1 year in Korea as he was getting used to the lifestyle. Once Jinro had a few months to acclimate himself to the lifestyle, he's consistently a top 5 player in Korea. IdrA is also one of the top players in Korea. So: 2 of the 2 foreigners who have been in Korea for an extended period of time have been hugely successful in GSL. That's a 100% success rate. Give any top foreigner 3-4 months and I can guarantee they will be in Code S and successful. Just watch how Ret and HuK will perform in the next GSL (this season they probably won't do so well, but I can almost guarantee they will dominate next season). This reeks of reverse fanboyism. Sure some foreigners are doing good, but the whole post kinda overexaggerates how well foreigners are doing vs koreans. I quite agree, we have no idea. Neither if koreans are better nor if it is foreigners. But, sorry to repeat myself, it is very important to know if people who don't speak english can be selected. Not only for korean players but also for many EU, chinese and south american players.
Yes, it should be possible for non English speakers to be in the league.
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From the OP:
On February 23 2011 08:08 doihy wrote:
1) Will the games be casted from replays? Or will the players be playing LIVE?
Reply:
1) Games cast LIVE!
If the reply was "The Games will be cast LIVE but will be broadcast later after post production." so that it was entirely clear that there was a difference, I could forgive the misuse of terminology. Cast != Commentate, but if you insist on using the term, at least make it ABUNDANTLY clear that broadcast is different to stop confusion. Take my advice or leave it, just don't wonder why people are confused.
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On February 23 2011 19:37 Xeris wrote:
fixed for ya.
Thank you. I understand you believe the distinction is silly and that it was perfectly clear anyway. I appreciate that you did this anyway.
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On February 23 2011 19:09 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 19:02 m3rciless wrote:
The stance on koreans participating is somewhat worrying to me. By not allowing koreans in, or making it difficult for them to participate, I think there will increasingly be the sense that NASL is the AHL to GSL's NHL. Even if the foreigners are competitive with the best koreans, which im sure some will be, without head to head confrontation this reputation will be hard to shake. Is this something the league has considered or sees a legitimate concern? The GSL makes it very difficult for foreigners to compete in it, I don't really see the difference. And why would we just assume that the GSL is synonymous to the NHL? Again, if we actually look at neutral tournaments that have had Koreans & Foreigners playing in it, we've seen that: a) Koreans are not invincible b) Foreigners might actually be as good or better than MOST Koreans. - Koreans were beaten by foreigners at Blizzcon - Koreans couldn't even make top 3 at Dreamhack - Idra & Jinro repeatedly beat Koreans in the GSL (the only foreigners in Code S have been successful repeatedly). Again. People misrepresent the strength of Koreans. They don't realize that it's really difficult for a foreigner to just be immediately successful in Korea. Starcraft isn't a game where you can just play on a whim at a high level. If you just moved to Korea from your home and have to adjust quickly to a completely different way of life, there's no way you're going to compete well against players who live & practice in a Korean environment. Was Jinro successful in GSL 1 and 2? Nope... he wasn't used to Korea yet. How about IdrA? He did nothing for 1 year in Korea as he was getting used to the lifestyle. Once Jinro had a few months to acclimate himself to the lifestyle, he's consistently a top 5 player in Korea. IdrA is also one of the top players in Korea. So: 2 of the 2 foreigners who have been in Korea for an extended period of time have been hugely successful in GSL. That's a 100% success rate. Give any top foreigner 3-4 months and I can guarantee they will be in Code S and successful. Just watch how Ret and HuK will perform in the next GSL (this season they probably won't do so well, but I can almost guarantee they will dominate next season).
With all due respect Xeris.
"The GSL makes it very difficult for foreigners to compete in it, I don't really see the difference"
and having a hard "korean cap" is not the same thing.
But just having the stance "korean cap" is evidence enough that the organizers knows that if they don't have the cap the koreans will actually have the dedication and participate in NASL and probably roflstomp most of the field.
The koreans doesn't have a cap for foreigners do they? They have the tournament in a studio which is the format they choose. And you choose a different format, thats fine. But even though you have an online part of the tournament you have the "korean cap" which is nothing short of you admitting that GSL is the crown jewel and you want to limit the S-players participation in favor of giving some "weaker" players in westerrn a chance to have their own leauge.
I am completely fine with that also, giving other players the chance other than the top korean players.
What I am not fine with is:
1. Having a korean cap
2. And at the same time you and others arguing that "no, the GSL s-class players, mostly koreans, aren't the best. We just want a different e-sports league and thats why we make a cap, not because we think our players would get roflstomped".
Why me and lot of others want "the no cap" format is because we want to see the best of the best duke out whether this be in Korea, US, Australia or somewhere in Africa. It's not because we have some crush on koreans.
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There is no Korean cap... I've already said that.
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On February 23 2011 19:42 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 19:09 Xeris wrote:On February 23 2011 19:02 m3rciless wrote:
The stance on koreans participating is somewhat worrying to me. By not allowing koreans in, or making it difficult for them to participate, I think there will increasingly be the sense that NASL is the AHL to GSL's NHL. Even if the foreigners are competitive with the best koreans, which im sure some will be, without head to head confrontation this reputation will be hard to shake. Is this something the league has considered or sees a legitimate concern? The GSL makes it very difficult for foreigners to compete in it, I don't really see the difference. And why would we just assume that the GSL is synonymous to the NHL? Again, if we actually look at neutral tournaments that have had Koreans & Foreigners playing in it, we've seen that: a) Koreans are not invincible b) Foreigners might actually be as good or better than MOST Koreans. - Koreans were beaten by foreigners at Blizzcon - Koreans couldn't even make top 3 at Dreamhack - Idra & Jinro repeatedly beat Koreans in the GSL (the only foreigners in Code S have been successful repeatedly). Again. People misrepresent the strength of Koreans. They don't realize that it's really difficult for a foreigner to just be immediately successful in Korea. Starcraft isn't a game where you can just play on a whim at a high level. If you just moved to Korea from your home and have to adjust quickly to a completely different way of life, there's no way you're going to compete well against players who live & practice in a Korean environment. Was Jinro successful in GSL 1 and 2? Nope... he wasn't used to Korea yet. How about IdrA? He did nothing for 1 year in Korea as he was getting used to the lifestyle. Once Jinro had a few months to acclimate himself to the lifestyle, he's consistently a top 5 player in Korea. IdrA is also one of the top players in Korea. So: 2 of the 2 foreigners who have been in Korea for an extended period of time have been hugely successful in GSL. That's a 100% success rate. Give any top foreigner 3-4 months and I can guarantee they will be in Code S and successful. Just watch how Ret and HuK will perform in the next GSL (this season they probably won't do so well, but I can almost guarantee they will dominate next season). With all due respect Xeris. "The GSL makes it very difficult for foreigners to compete in it, I don't really see the difference"and having a hard "korean cap" is not the same thing. But just having the stance "korean cap" is evidence enough that the organizers knows that if they don't have the cap the koreans will actually have the dedication and participate in NASL and probably roflstomp most of the field. The koreans doesn't have a cap for foreigners do they? They have the tournament in a studio which is the format they choose. And you choose a different format, thats fine. But even though you have an online part of the tournament you have the "korean cap" which is nothing short of you admitting that GSL is the crown jewel and you want to limit the S-players participation in favor of giving some "weaker" players in westerrn a chance to have their own leauge. I am completely fine with that also, giving other players the chance other than the top korean players. What I am not fine with is: 1. Having a korean cap 2. And at the same time you and others arguing that "no, the GSL s-class players, mostly koreans, aren't the best. We just want a different e-sports league and thats why we make a cap, not because we think our players would get roflstomped". Why me and lot of others want "the no cap" format is because we want to see the best of the best duke out whether this be in Korea, US, Australia or somewhere in Africa. It's not because we have some crush on koreans.
I agree with the above post. I think the best way to handle this would be the way the GSL handles it. GSL creates opportunities for foreigners to play in GSL, NASL should create opportunities for koreans to play in NASL. GSL has hired multiple english speakers to facilitate things for foreign players, provided a teamhouse purely for foreigners and most importantly given 4 slots in code A automatically.
I wasn't saying that I think koreans are better, I was saying that without direct confrontation, it will be difficult to tell, and as the only foreigners that are really competitive with top koreans (basically only teamliquid and idra, afaik) are generally training in korea, the suspicion that NASL is just worse will always be present.
You can easily avoid this by providing similar institutions to the GSL foreigner house, 4 free slots to code A, etc.
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On February 23 2011 19:48 Xeris wrote:
There is no Korean cap... I've already said that.
Hate to be a broken record.
OP states:
Koreans: We're not GSL. Bringing in all the Koreans will just make this event the GSL. We are focusing on the growth of Western ESPORTS, by providing players and storylines that are more relatable to our audience.
Along with the mention of a Korean cap in the initial announcement, if there really is no cap, then you might want to include that in the OP also to retract the statement. As nice as it would be, I highly doubt anyone will read this entire thread.
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I don't see how GSL makes it hard for foreigners to compete other than the fact that it's in Korea. That may have been your only point, but GSL has actually taken many measures to make it as easy as possible for foreigners to participate as possible. Foreigners don't have to be top 172 or w/e in korean ladder, 4 of them get free spots in A, etc.
I'm not really saying anything about what NASL's policy should be, I'm just sayin'.
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It is not some genetic trait that makes people think that the Koreans are better at Starcraft.
It is the environment over there. They have team houses, constant practise day in day out, structured practise, coaches, team captains, all of that. We don't have that here. Hell, people like iNcontroL spend a ton of time coaching random people, not practising with their team.
Unless your argument is that Koreans have some sort of genetic pre-disposition to Starcraft 2, quoting the success of Jinro and IdrA is not relevant to a discussion about foreigners vs Koreans in SC2, because for the purposes of that discussion, Jinro and IdrA ARE Koreans, they are products of that environment.
This is the same thing that happened in Brood War. For the first few years of the scene, foreigners could compete effectively using natural talent and their own practise regimen, but eventually the structure and regimen of the Korean pro-gaming teams just became too much to be handled, and now we see the dominance of Korea to the exclusion of all else.
The same thing is going to happen in SC2. Perhaps not immediately, but regardless of what you do, regardless of what you try to do, sooner or later Korea will be the dominant force in SC2 because they have an environment there that improves them faster than the Western players without such an environment can keep up.
Western gaming teams are more like clans. A bunch of guys who kind of hang out together online, play games together, and hang out in the same Ventrilo with shared tags. This is a far cry from the true TEAMS that are in Korea, and given only a year or two, there will be no competing with them.
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It'd be nice to get a full clarification of the Korean issue from iNc/Russ if it's all you can say about the matter. We want the league to be a major success for Western esports, but I don't think anyone wants favoritism or affirmative action to prevent competition from reaching the highest level possible.
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On February 23 2011 19:53 Enzyme wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 19:48 Xeris wrote:
There is no Korean cap... I've already said that. Hate to be a broken record. OP states: Koreans: We're not GSL. Bringing in all the Koreans will just make this event the GSL. We are focusing on the growth of Western ESPORTS, by providing players and storylines that are more relatable to our audience. Along with the mention of a Korean cap in the initial announcement, if there really is no cap, then you might want to include that in the OP also to retract the statement. As nice as it would be, I highly doubt anyone will read this entire thread.
Just because we aren't catering to Koreans doesn't mean we have a Korean cap. There is no Korean cap, I will re-state. We probably won't have 50 Koreans, but theoretically there is no limit on the number of Koreans we'll take in.
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On February 23 2011 19:54 Buddhist wrote:
I don't see how GSL makes it hard for foreigners to compete other than the fact that it's in Korea. That may have been your only point, but GSL has actually taken many measures to make it as easy as possible for foreigners to participate as possible. Foreigners don't have to be top 172 or w/e in korean ladder, 4 of them get free spots in A, etc.
I'm not really saying anything about what NASL's policy should be, I'm just sayin'.
GOM sees foreigners as a business opportunity. SC2 is developed enough that Koreans don't mind seeing foreigners, and then they have the huge foreign base that turns up to watch foreigners play (and pay for the stream). There are huge benefits for GOM to support non-koreans entering the GSL.
NASL is trying to establish ESPORTS in the west, this will not happen with western audiences if everyone is Korean and can't speak English. The purpose of the back stories in NASL is to build rapport with the players and the audience in order to build up esports in the eyes of western audiences. At this point in time it actually hurts NASL's goals to allow it to become filled with Koreans even if they are technically the best players. Yes, this sounds racist and unfair, but if western audiences wanted to see Koreans play then the OSL would have been broadcast in America already.
I'm sure there are many other factors such as regions, timezones and differentiating their product from the GSL, however I think for esports to really get a foothold in the west they do need a strong non-korean player base.
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i understood since the first time, games are played live online and brodcasted live! that information is everywhere!
That's why it's difficult for europeans and koreans and they have to insure those guys will be there on time because it's not hard for a american to play at 8 pm but that time it will be 4 or 5 am in europe and like 12pm on korea or something..
Man i tought SC community would really come together for this but all i see is players that think they are worthy complaning that they won't go in even tho all the details are not out and random people complaning about casting, players, 5 teams, production
FFS!! give them time and let them explain all the rules and for that they need time!
For all you wannabee top players! Excuse me but if you don't win money tournaments you suck and you don't deserve a spot! Beating top players online is crap because they use it for practice and test their skills in tournaments so if you want to be famous, have fans and win money spend you days on tournaments and not on ladder!!
See cruncher for instance.. he was unknown and then he won a TSL qualifier and will be in TSL playoffs so he is now famous and deserves a spot over any guy that has high ranking on ladder..
And yes 5 guys is more then enought.. what fun would it be if guys throw games or have team kills left and right..
About the castins you have what they give you.. accept or shut the hell up.. COME ON!! HUSKY? whaaaaaaaat? Husky is fun and all but it's not like he is better then incontrol... atleast for me..
Day9 of course is one of the best with tastosis but the guy is busy and he can't do it.. they allready talked about it!! And please don't bitch about being on the same dates of day9 show because A) you can watch nasl later just pay for the vods or watch day9 later because it's FREE?
I will stop seeing NASL threads because i'm going crazy with all the bitching from guys that do nothing or from guys that think they deserve to know more then others..
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On February 23 2011 19:54 Buddhist wrote:
I don't see how GSL makes it hard for foreigners to compete other than the fact that it's in Korea. That may have been your only point, but GSL has actually taken many measures to make it as easy as possible for foreigners to participate as possible. Foreigners don't have to be top 172 or w/e in korean ladder, 4 of them get free spots in A, etc.
I'm not really saying anything about what NASL's policy should be, I'm just sayin'.
Really? There are such insanely high barriers to entry into the GSL (I'm talking about Code S). First, if you're not one of the 4 lucky foreigners to be directly seeded into Code A you have to:
- Go through 1 month at least to even get the chance to qualify for Code A, then another 1-2 months in Code A to get to Code S. It takes a minimum of a quarter of a year for a foreigner to get into Code S.
On top of this, there's at least a 1-2 month adjustment period where you're adjusting to life in Korea and practicing. So really, you're looking at a 6 month minimum commitment of being in Korea to have a realistic shot at getting to Code S. This means: you need to pay for the flights and 6 months of living expense.
This is such an INSANELY high barrier to entry, nobody outside of Liquid really can do this. Why have no other teams (even those with huge sponsors such as EG or Mouz) made the investment in Korea? Because it's unrealistic for foreigners to compete in this league, simple fact.
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Here's a message from Duncan, one of the owners of NASL, that should clarify the broadcast issue:
"There are many technical issues with a live broadcast related to stream quality.
When we stream a game live with in-studio footage, we must choose between the quality of production and the smoothness of the show all according to a budget that allows for such a prize pool.
If we were to do the show completely live, we would have to cut a lot of our transitional effects which give us the "wow" factor.
Additionally, a live broadcast does not allow smooth in-game camera cuts. Due to the level of our stream quality, which can be watched on a 72" widescreen TV, in-game camera cuts leave a "residue" of the previous shot.
Furthermore, a delayed broadcast allows us to involve Europeans without having them stay up until 5 in the morning to play their matches.
So overall, we felt that a pre-record of the show gave an overall quality level that was worth the loss of immediacy.
We never even thought we were being misleading. It is standard practice for film to state that a show is filmed live if it is performed as it is being filmed. Typically, "Live" means that they perform it with minimal retakes or with multi-camera work. We are sorry if you thought we were being deceptive; that was never our intention.
Let me say that the feedback is great, even if a little heated at times.
If after all this info, you still think that doing the broadcast 100% live is worth it, let us know. Then we will know what you value more and we can adjust accordingly."
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Personally I think 100% live would be preferable, but depending on setup and logistical stuff, whichever works best is the way to go. Either way I'll definitely be watching 
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If we were to do the show completely live, we would have to cut a lot of our transitional effects which give us the "wow" factor. Transitional effects? Like the things in GSL?
Additionally, a live broadcast does not allow smooth in-game camera cuts. Due to the level of our stream quality, which can be watched on a 72" widescreen TV
The screen size is irrelevant, all that matters is resolution. The stream quality advertised is extremely good, no need to dumb it down. , in-game camera cuts leave a "residue" of the previous shot. These are called artifacts, and are caused because of keyframe frequency. The more frequent there are keyframes, the less artifacting you'll have in quick screen movements. You can see this is NOT a problem in high quality streams with good settings on, say, JustinTV. I'm pretty sure Destiny (not 100% sure about him) has virtually no artifacting, and that's first person perspective, with tons of rapid screen movements.
Edit: Just went and watched skysen (whoever that is) and he has no artifacting in first person. Day9 also has no artifacting when switching from his camera into screen capturing.
GSL does, and it's because of poor key frame settings.
Furthermore, a delayed broadcast allows us to involve Europeans without having them stay up until 5 in the morning to play their matches.
I thought it was already said that the games will rebroadcasted so that Europeans can watch it at a reasonable time... which is not something requiring a lack of live broadcasting.
Edit: Nvm, I misread
I want to say that live broadcasting is not an absolute necessity, that I'd definitely watch either way, but I'm not actually sure that I would  . Tons of people would though either way.
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EPT
