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On March 11 2011 09:46 SDream wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 09:30 Happy Frog wrote:
So GM League will be completely static within a season, aside from a mad scramble during the first two weeks? I imagined it would be dynamic ala the weekly top 200 lists, and simply reflect that information in the Bnet UI.
This seems to be really counter intutitive towards creating a competitive environment at the top of the ladder. If I'm reading this correctly you could place in GM, then lose every single game for the rest of the season and not lose your spot as long as you remain active.
Unless I'm way off base, this seems like a really problematic implementation and I'm surprised there hasn't been a stink kicked up over it.
No, it will be dynamic, even more than any other league. What they are trying to say is that, not only can you get demoted by having a low MMR than you should (as in other leagues), in aditional to that you can also be demoted at anytime also by points criteria (bonus pool inflation). 
But that directly contradicts my above bolded quote, which is taken directly from the PTR GM info tab.
Has anyone on the PTR been demoted from GM? The only way to test it would be have a PTR GM attempt to tank their rating.
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PTR barely has 200 players in total lol 
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On March 11 2011 10:16 SDream wrote:PTR barely has 200 players in total lol
brb buying 199 smurf accounts
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United States12270 Posts
That's pretty hard to read so I'll transcribe it:
"The Grandmaster League is a special league where the top StarCraft II players in each region can compete against each other to test their mettle.
Unlike other leagues, Grandmaster has a limited number of open slots making it the most exclusive league for StarCraft II players. Qualification for this league is determined after the first two weeks in a new season. Once the first two weeks of a season have finished, potential candidates must play one more match in order to receive their promotion.
In order to stay in the Grandmaster League, players must remain active. If a Grandmaster player becomes inactive and accumulates too much bonus pool, the player will be automatically kicked and a more active combatant will fill the empty slot.
Congratulations to all those qualified in the Grandmaster League and good luck!"
The PTR notes certainly make it sound like you can become a permanent member as long as you remain active (and remember that activity requires that you spend bonus pool which means you must win games). All we need to do to confirm that is to note the remaining bonus pools of each GM player to find what the threshold is. If the threshold is not consistent, then we'll know players are wedging their way into Grandmaster League through superior points/MMR/moving avg/whatever the chief criteria is and that it's not solely the activity threshold that determines GM status.
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Excalibur_Z I was wondering if you could explain a little more where the information about "League Inflation" (leagues requiring more skill as bronze players leave) comes from?
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United States12270 Posts
On March 12 2011 02:49 Archerofaiur wrote:
Excalibur_Z I was wondering if you could explain a little more where the information about "League Inflation" (leagues requiring more skill as bronze players leave) comes from?
It's self-evident, so there is no source to cite there. If all the bad players quit, and the good players remain, then the people you fight at the bottom won't be bad players, they'll just be the worst of the good players.
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On March 12 2011 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 02:49 Archerofaiur wrote:
Excalibur_Z I was wondering if you could explain a little more where the information about "League Inflation" (leagues requiring more skill as bronze players leave) comes from? It's self-evident, so there is no source to cite there. If all the bad players quit, and the good players remain, then the people you fight at the bottom won't be bad players, they'll just be the worst of the good players.
Why wouldnt they remain in the higher leagues and the inactive players sink to the bottom? In other words why would there MMR (or points) go down?
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On March 12 2011 03:59 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:On March 12 2011 02:49 Archerofaiur wrote:
Excalibur_Z I was wondering if you could explain a little more where the information about "League Inflation" (leagues requiring more skill as bronze players leave) comes from? It's self-evident, so there is no source to cite there. If all the bad players quit, and the good players remain, then the people you fight at the bottom won't be bad players, they'll just be the worst of the good players. Why wouldnt they remain in the higher leagues and the inactive players sink to the bottom?
Because the percentages that each league encompasses is only of active players, not all players.
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On March 12 2011 04:02 MechaCthulhu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 03:59 Archerofaiur wrote:On March 12 2011 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:On March 12 2011 02:49 Archerofaiur wrote:
Excalibur_Z I was wondering if you could explain a little more where the information about "League Inflation" (leagues requiring more skill as bronze players leave) comes from? It's self-evident, so there is no source to cite there. If all the bad players quit, and the good players remain, then the people you fight at the bottom won't be bad players, they'll just be the worst of the good players. Why wouldnt they remain in the higher leagues and the inactive players sink to the bottom? Because the percentages that each league encompasses is only of active players, not all players.
Ya I guess thats what im asking. How do we know that? Where is that info coming from?
And if the MMR value for say gold league is constant, and players play at the constant MMR value, than how would population drop out of lower leagues result in that gold player dropping?
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United States12270 Posts
On March 12 2011 03:59 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:On March 12 2011 02:49 Archerofaiur wrote:
Excalibur_Z I was wondering if you could explain a little more where the information about "League Inflation" (leagues requiring more skill as bronze players leave) comes from? It's self-evident, so there is no source to cite there. If all the bad players quit, and the good players remain, then the people you fight at the bottom won't be bad players, they'll just be the worst of the good players. Why wouldnt they remain in the higher leagues and the inactive players sink to the bottom? In other words why would there MMR (or points) go down?
Because MMR doesn't decay. Silver players are Silver because they beat Bronze players and lose to Gold players. If Bronze players quit (as we've seen over time), Silver players no longer have Bronze players to beat which pushes their MMR down as they play more games, because their games will be against Gold players who are better than they are.
This all assumes that the Silver player in question remains active. If he goes inactive then of course he'll stay in Silver, but that will have no meaning because his MMR won't change even as the skill defining that MMR changes around him.
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On March 12 2011 04:05 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 03:59 Archerofaiur wrote:On March 12 2011 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:On March 12 2011 02:49 Archerofaiur wrote:
Excalibur_Z I was wondering if you could explain a little more where the information about "League Inflation" (leagues requiring more skill as bronze players leave) comes from? It's self-evident, so there is no source to cite there. If all the bad players quit, and the good players remain, then the people you fight at the bottom won't be bad players, they'll just be the worst of the good players. Why wouldnt they remain in the higher leagues and the inactive players sink to the bottom? In other words why would there MMR (or points) go down? Because MMR doesn't decay. Silver players are Silver because they beat Bronze players and lose to Gold players. If Bronze players quit (as we've seen over time), Silver players no longer have Bronze players to beat which pushes their MMR down as they play more games.
I apologize if im missing something obvious. I just dont get how the population of the league below you would affect your ability to maintain your MMR.
Why wouldnt the player be able to maintain his MMR by continuing to beat the remaining Bronze league players? As long as he is able to find at least one bronze player he is able to beat them and boost his MMR, correct?
In otherwords (and correct me if im wrong)
1) The system finds someone in your uncertainty range (a higher level player because lower level players are now more scarce)
2) You play them and you lose. Now your MMR bumps down.
3) You search for another game in your (now lower) uncertainty range and find a lower level player (because the higher level players are now above your uncertainty range).
4) You win bumping your MMR back up.
In other words shouldnt the uncertainty range priority searching act as a counter to the more seldom chance of finding a lower level player?
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United States12270 Posts
On March 12 2011 04:09 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 04:05 Excalibur_Z wrote:On March 12 2011 03:59 Archerofaiur wrote:On March 12 2011 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:On March 12 2011 02:49 Archerofaiur wrote:
Excalibur_Z I was wondering if you could explain a little more where the information about "League Inflation" (leagues requiring more skill as bronze players leave) comes from? It's self-evident, so there is no source to cite there. If all the bad players quit, and the good players remain, then the people you fight at the bottom won't be bad players, they'll just be the worst of the good players. Why wouldnt they remain in the higher leagues and the inactive players sink to the bottom? In other words why would there MMR (or points) go down? Because MMR doesn't decay. Silver players are Silver because they beat Bronze players and lose to Gold players. If Bronze players quit (as we've seen over time), Silver players no longer have Bronze players to beat which pushes their MMR down as they play more games. Why wouldnt the player be able to maintain his MMR by continueing to beat the remaining BRonze league players? As long as he is able to find a bronze player he is able to beat them and boost his MMR correct? I apologize if im missing something obvious. I just dont get how the population of the league would affect your ability to maintain your MMR.
Bronze is not an absolute measure of skill, the leagues are only relative to the players who participate. So as bad players either go inactive or quit altogether, that creates a void at the bottom that gets filled by players who are the at next highest skill level. This causes ripple effects up the rest of the ladder.
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I added a simplified example to my previous post to make it clearer. Basically that the uncertainty priority searching should counteract more seldom lower level players.
On March 12 2011 04:38 Excalibur_Z wrote:
So as bad players either go inactive or quit altogether, that creates a void at the bottom that gets filled by players who are the at next highest skill level.
How with relation to MMR is the void filled? Does the mean MMR rating for all gold players stay the same or does it depreciate?
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United States12270 Posts
On March 12 2011 04:09 Archerofaiur wrote:
In otherwords (and correct me if im wrong)
1) The system finds someone in your uncertainty range (a higher level player because lower level players are now more scarce)
2) You play them and you lose. Now your MMR bumps down.
3) You search for another game in your (now lower) uncertainty range and find a lower level player (because the higher level players are now above your uncertainty range).
4) You win bumping your MMR back up.
In other words shouldnt the uncertainty range priority searching act as a counter to the more seldom chance of finding a lower level player?
This assumes that there are enough low-level players playing. The activity levels drop dramatically below the highest level of play. The idea behind the "league inflation" as you've phrased it is that on the average, lower level players are more scarce, you're right about that.
However, let's say you're in Silver and your MMR is equidistant from Bronze and Gold. If there are fewer Bronze players, then your MMR would drop because you're playing more Golds and therefore losing, you're right about that too. In the event that you do play against Bronze players, the MMR that you gain from them would not be enough to offset the MMR losses you suffered at the hands of the Gold players simply because you're not facing enough of them to prop you back up to where you were originally.
It's a little more nuanced than that example because MMR is overarching, but it should give a good idea as to what's happening.
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On March 12 2011 05:03 Excalibur_Z wrote:
If there are fewer Bronze players, then your MMR would drop because you're playing more Golds and therefore losing, you're right about that too.
This is the heart of what i was saying. At first you would be playing more gold.
Than as your uncertainty level dropped you would be playing more bronze. These games would take longer to find because the system would try to match you with your now lower uncertainty (which is closer to bronze which are more seldom). You would win these games thus propelling your uncertainty back to its original value.
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On March 12 2011 05:07 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 05:03 Excalibur_Z wrote:
If there are fewer Bronze players, then your MMR would drop because you're playing more Golds and therefore losing, you're right about that too. This is the heart of what i was saying. At first you would be playing more gold. Than as your uncertainty level dropped you would be playing more bronze. These games would take longer to find because the system would try to match you with your now lower uncertainty (which is closer to bronze which are more seldom). You would win these games thus propelling your uncertainty back to its original value.
Exactly.
If you're playing more Bronze players, that means your MMR dropped to Bronze level.
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On March 12 2011 05:09 HaIf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 05:07 Archerofaiur wrote:On March 12 2011 05:03 Excalibur_Z wrote:
If there are fewer Bronze players, then your MMR would drop because you're playing more Golds and therefore losing, you're right about that too. This is the heart of what i was saying. At first you would be playing more gold. Than as your uncertainty level dropped you would be playing more bronze. These games would take longer to find because the system would try to match you with your now lower uncertainty (which is closer to bronze which are more seldom). You would win these games thus propelling your uncertainty back to its original value. Exactly. If you're playing more Bronze players, that means your MMR dropped to Bronze level.
But you would be beating those players. Thus forcing your MMR back up. Your MMR would only stop rising once your uncertainty measure started hitting gold players again.
I am still confused as to if the MMR average of gold league stays the same.
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On March 12 2011 05:11 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 05:09 HaIf wrote:On March 12 2011 05:07 Archerofaiur wrote:On March 12 2011 05:03 Excalibur_Z wrote:
If there are fewer Bronze players, then your MMR would drop because you're playing more Golds and therefore losing, you're right about that too. This is the heart of what i was saying. At first you would be playing more gold. Than as your uncertainty level dropped you would be playing more bronze. These games would take longer to find because the system would try to match you with your now lower uncertainty (which is closer to bronze which are more seldom). You would win these games thus propelling your uncertainty back to its original value. Exactly. If you're playing more Bronze players, that means your MMR dropped to Bronze level. But you would be beating those players. Thus forcing your MMR back up. Your MMR would only stop rising once your uncertainty measure started hitting gold players again.
Let's just put numbers to this.
Assume there are 100,000 active players on the server you are playing.
This means there are :
20,000 Bronze (Rank 100,000-80,000)
20,000 Silver (Rank 79,999-60,000)
20,000 Gold (Rank 59,999-40,000)
20,000 Platinum (Rank 39,999-20,000)
18,000 Diamond (Rank 19,999-2,000)
2,000 Masters (Rank 1,999-1)
If you are in the middle of the silver league, skill wise, this puts you at rank 70,000th
Now assuming the worst 15,000 players quit, while the other remain active, the ladder will re-balance to the following :
17,000 Bronze (Rank 85,000-68,000)
17,000 Silver (Rank 67,999-51,000)
17,000 Gold (Rank 50,999-34,000)
17,000 Platinum (Rank 33,999-17,000)
15,300 Diamond (Rank 16,999-1,700)
1,700 Masters (Rank 1,699-1)
Your skill rank will not have changed, and you will remain at 70,000th, which places you in the bronze league.
(Please indicate if anything is wrong with this analysis.)
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EPT
