EPT[G] Comprehensive SC2 League and Ladder Guide - Page 7
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Terranium
Turkmenistan144 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On February 28 2011 14:21 Terranium wrote: Excal do you have any info regarding the Grand Master League? If so, please add that to the OP or make a new thread about it, we are interested. The in-game description provides too little information. I hear people playing the PTR have already been promoted. How is it working on the PTR at the moment? I guess it will be again based off your visible points rather than hidden MMR? I haven't investigated the Grandmaster league at all. It says it's the top 200 players, and people are getting promoted into it after their very first game, which suggests that it may be the top 200 MMR, MMR moving average, or unmodified points. There are too many variables currently to conclude anything. In contrast to Master or Diamond league which have pretty evident MMR breakpoints, GM league appears to be a bit more abstract in how it ranks players. We'll have to wait and see. | ||
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Karn3
United Kingdom134 Posts
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DiDigital
75 Posts
For awhile me and a friend were queuing up for 3v3 (as random players). His 3v3 stats are only as a random player playing with me, while mine are actually quite random with a bit more than half being with him. By playing with me (I was in gold) he placed into platinum. After awhile I started to notice that after each game he was getting between 2-6 points (without bonus) more than me per win, and generally about the same in a loss (I forget these details). Eventually he was promoted to diamond, at which point our points earned evened out. What does this imply? Well first it means that in random teams points are not given out evenly. It also means that points are not given out based on highest or lowest rank on a team, as was my original suspicion. Points are also not given out on an individual points to opposing team mmr comparison, since that would mean I (as a lower ranked player) would get more points when I was actually getting less. It would appear that a team mmr is created by matchmaking, and then points and mmr changes are divided up amongst team members in some way based on the players mmr and current points. Obviously points are not MMR, but I think you can draw some conclusions as to how your random team MMR is adjusted based on how points are adjusted, since the system is designed to move your points towards your mmr, while your mmr moves more quickly. | ||
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Phanekim
United States777 Posts
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EdSlyB
Portugal1621 Posts
Thanks Excalibur ^^ | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
What if a person is stuck in lower Bronze League for 100+ games, then purchases another account, gets better on that account and plays in Master League, then wants to return to his old account to ladder it up. The reason I'm asking is because I'm in that kind of scenario. I might be able to purchase a used account from a friend who has been in silver league for quite a while and I don't want to play 100+ games against Silver/Gold/Diamond Leaguers before I hit Master Leaguers. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On March 01 2011 01:05 heishe wrote: Excalibur_Z, I'm not sure how you would have such information, but I'll try anyways: Do you have any estimations on how much games a person would need to play in order to raise his MMR to a level much higher than his current level, if you win 100% or close to 100% of your games? Well, that's not exactly a good question so I'll try to explain: What if a person is stuck in lower Bronze League for 100+ games, then purchases another account, gets better on that account and plays in Master League, then wants to return to his old account to ladder it up. The reason I'm asking is because I'm in that kind of scenario. I might be able to purchase a used account from a friend who has been in silver league for quite a while and I don't want to play 100+ games against Silver/Gold/Diamond Leaguers before I hit Master Leaguers. Well, we've seen accounts of players who were firmly in Bronze (such as worker rushing portrait farmers with 6000 games played) get bumped back up to Diamond within 30 games, so I would say that should be about how long it takes. Those players definitely had the kind of obscene win streaks you're talking about. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On February 28 2011 21:35 Phanekim wrote: excali, i dont know if this has been asked before. but how has the matchmaking system changed in 1.2. i remember reading it in patch notes. what has changed from now from pre 1.2. I have no idea, and I think the wording on that patch note was intentionally vague. It could be interpreted as "arranged teams are less likely to encounter random teams" or "queuing as random team with others in a party (say a party of 2 queues for 3v3 random) will be more likely to encounter arranged teams." Blizzard has never been very clear regarding how their matchmaking system operates. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On February 28 2011 17:18 DiDigital wrote: Regarding the random teams mmr/points discussion on the previous page, I've noticed a few strange things with it. For awhile me and a friend were queuing up for 3v3 (as random players). His 3v3 stats are only as a random player playing with me, while mine are actually quite random with a bit more than half being with him. By playing with me (I was in gold) he placed into platinum. After awhile I started to notice that after each game he was getting between 2-6 points (without bonus) more than me per win, and generally about the same in a loss (I forget these details). Eventually he was promoted to diamond, at which point our points earned evened out. What does this imply? Well first it means that in random teams points are not given out evenly. It also means that points are not given out based on highest or lowest rank on a team, as was my original suspicion. Points are also not given out on an individual points to opposing team mmr comparison, since that would mean I (as a lower ranked player) would get more points when I was actually getting less. It would appear that a team mmr is created by matchmaking, and then points and mmr changes are divided up amongst team members in some way based on the players mmr and current points. Obviously points are not MMR, but I think you can draw some conclusions as to how your random team MMR is adjusted based on how points are adjusted, since the system is designed to move your points towards your mmr, while your mmr moves more quickly. That's pretty interesting. Perhaps because the opponents you face are random and your teammates are also random, it only awards points comparing yourself to your MMR? I think I would want to try a random team scenario like you described but with both players exclusively queuing for random team together (instead of you playing alone, always playing with your Plat friend). What I would expect to happen is that the point gains would always be identical in this controlled experiment, but if not, maybe there's some additional "random" element to random team. I may give that a shot if I have time. | ||
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DiDigital
75 Posts
Regarding your possible theory, I don't think the system for teams will be much different than it is for 1v1. The points we earn in general do resemble the displayed skill level of our opponents. Perhaps there is an amount of points given to the whole team based on comparing team MMRs and from there those points are divided among team members based on the difference in their own points to mmr. What I think can be said for sure is that points are divided up amongst teammates based on some combination of each individuals own points and own mmr. I should note that I haven't played a game with him since the update to team match making. I assume that the update is going to give us slightly harder opponents and probably slightly less points for wins. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
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DiDigital
75 Posts
I can't imagine the affects being that huge after a decent number of games played, since its only an estimated starting point. But since you are placed after 5 matches it could lead to you being placed in different division tiers, which could give you the opportunity to get a look into how division tiers affect points. | ||
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Kyamo
Canada129 Posts
On February 23 2011 00:58 Excalibur_Z wrote: Naturally I'd enjoy seeing more accurate data from all ranges of players. What I really want to see is examples of players or teams across all leagues that gain exactly +12 points (excluding bonus pool) for a win and causing their opponents to lose exactly -12 points in the same game. =] If I find a game like this, which details do you need about it? What are you hoping to learn from this even match data? | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On March 10 2011 10:36 Kyamo wrote: Thanks so much for this thread, it is extremely informative. If I find a game like this, which details do you need about it? What are you hoping to learn from this even match data? With enough data points, we can eventually converge on what the offsets are for each league and each division tier below Diamond, and what the variance is on point changes per game versus MMR (ie., if you earn 13 points instead of 12, how much higher was the other person's MMR?). I posted the desired format in the Division Tiers thread, and we started talking about it on the last couple of pages, so please post any relevant findings there: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169830¤tpage=46 | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On March 01 2011 18:00 DiDigital wrote: Good point, although it would still give you an opportunity to see the affects of your initial MMR estimate on the points you earn and the changes in your MMR. Not sure if that's a big deal though. haha I can't imagine the affects being that huge after a decent number of games played, since its only an estimated starting point. But since you are placed after 5 matches it could lead to you being placed in different division tiers, which could give you the opportunity to get a look into how division tiers affect points. Having completed our 5 placement matches and playing more games afterward, we were placed in exactly the same division and earning exactly the same amount of points per game. So, in this case, it either didn't bootstrap us at all, or it used our 2v2 Diamond team as a starting point (which has the highest points and probably the highest MMR out of both our accounts). | ||
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Happy Frog
Australia490 Posts
Patch notes - + Show Spoiler + ■A new Grandmaster League has been added for 1v1 ladders. This league represents the Top 200 players in each region. ■Players are automatically drafted into the Grandmaster League shortly after a new season starts, and will remain in the Grandmaster League until the end of the season. If a Grandmaster player’s available bonus points get too high due to inactivity, they will be automatically removed from the league and a replacement player will be drafted in. ■The Grandmaster League can be viewed by all players through the new Leagues & Ladders > Grandmaster page From PTR - + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/sO9FA.png) "Qualification for this league is determined after the first two weeks in a new season. Once the first two weeks of a season have finished, potential candidates must play one more match in order to receive their promotion." ---- So GM League will be completely static within a season, aside from a mad scramble during the first two weeks? I imagined it would be dynamic ala the weekly top 200 lists, and simply reflect that information in the Bnet UI. This seems to be really counter intutitive towards creating a competitive environment at the top of the ladder. If I'm reading this correctly you could place in GM, then lose every single game for the rest of the season and not lose your spot as long as you remain active. Unless I'm way off base, this seems like a really problematic implementation and I'm surprised there hasn't been a stink kicked up over it. | ||
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LetoAtreides82
United States1188 Posts
On March 11 2011 09:30 Happy Frog wrote: Regarding GM League, this is all the current info I could find: Patch notes - + Show Spoiler + ■A new Grandmaster League has been added for 1v1 ladders. This league represents the Top 200 players in each region. ■Players are automatically drafted into the Grandmaster League shortly after a new season starts, and will remain in the Grandmaster League until the end of the season. If a Grandmaster player’s available bonus points get too high due to inactivity, they will be automatically removed from the league and a replacement player will be drafted in. ■The Grandmaster League can be viewed by all players through the new Leagues & Ladders > Grandmaster page From PTR - + Show Spoiler + "Qualification for this league is determined after the first two weeks in a new season. Once the first two weeks of a season have finished, potential candidates must play one more match in order to receive their promotion." ---- So GM League will be completely static within a season, aside from a mad scramble during the first two weeks? I imagined it would be dynamic ala the weekly top 200 lists, and simply reflect that information in the Bnet UI. This seems to be really counter intutitive towards creating a competitive environment at the top of the ladder. If I'm reading this correctly you could place in GM, then lose every single game for the rest of the season and not lose your spot as long as you remain active. Unless I'm way off base, this seems like a really problematic implementation and I'm surprised there hasn't been a stink kicked up over it. That's not how I understand it at all, the way I understand it is that it opens up after two weeks, and after that you just have to maintain top 200 to stay in it. If you fall out you will be replaced immediately as long as the replacement is active. | ||
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Happy Frog
Australia490 Posts
On March 11 2011 09:37 LetoAtreides82 wrote: That's not how I understand it at all, the way I understand it is that it opens up after two weeks, and after that you just have to maintain top 200 to stay in it. If you fall out you will be replaced immediately as long as the replacement is active. Yes, that's how it should work but ■Players are automatically drafted into the Grandmaster League shortly after a new season starts, and will remain in the Grandmaster League until the end of the season. If a Grandmaster player’s available bonus points get too high due to inactivity, they will be automatically removed from the league and a replacement player will be drafted in. suggests something different altogether. Unless GM League isn't top 200, but everyone who makes the top 200 at some point in a season, which would be ok I suppose. It still seems too ambiguous for my liking, unless someone can enlighten me with some experience from the PTR. | ||
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SDream
Brazil896 Posts
On March 11 2011 09:30 Happy Frog wrote: So GM League will be completely static within a season, aside from a mad scramble during the first two weeks? I imagined it would be dynamic ala the weekly top 200 lists, and simply reflect that information in the Bnet UI. This seems to be really counter intutitive towards creating a competitive environment at the top of the ladder. If I'm reading this correctly you could place in GM, then lose every single game for the rest of the season and not lose your spot as long as you remain active. Unless I'm way off base, this seems like a really problematic implementation and I'm surprised there hasn't been a stink kicked up over it. No, it will be dynamic, even more than any other league. What they are trying to say is that, not only can you get demoted by having a low MMR than you should (as in other leagues), in aditional to that you can also be demoted at anytime also by points criteria (bonus pool inflation).  | ||
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