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[G] Comprehensive SC2 League and Ladder Guide - Page 10

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Jago
Profile Joined October 2010
Finland390 Posts
March 12 2011 01:41 GMT
#181
On February 22 2011 15:13 Excalibur_Z wrote:For example, let's say two players are matched together, Player A with 1500 MMR and 0 points and Player B with 1000 MMR and 0 points. Each player would see the other as Favored

Err, what? Why?

Why on earth would a 1500 MMR player see the lesser player as Favored?
ChrysaliS_
Profile Joined January 2011
United States261 Posts
March 12 2011 05:11 GMT
#182
On March 12 2011 10:41 Jago wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2011 15:13 Excalibur_Z wrote:For example, let's say two players are matched together, Player A with 1500 MMR and 0 points and Player B with 1000 MMR and 0 points. Each player would see the other as Favored

Err, what? Why?

Why on earth would a 1500 MMR player see the lesser player as Favored?


did you read the OP? favored means your opponent's MMR is greater than your points......
Chrysalis.145
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-12 06:03:43
March 12 2011 05:17 GMT
#183
On March 12 2011 14:11 ChrysaliS_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2011 10:41 Jago wrote:
On February 22 2011 15:13 Excalibur_Z wrote:For example, let's say two players are matched together, Player A with 1500 MMR and 0 points and Player B with 1000 MMR and 0 points. Each player would see the other as Favored

Err, what? Why?

Why on earth would a 1500 MMR player see the lesser player as Favored?


did you read the OP? favored means your opponent's MMR is greater than your points......



Oh man this brings up another thing

As MMR goes down and points go up your chances of being favored (i hope im doing this right) decrease over time?

Therefore as time goes on and MMR's depreciate favored points will become less frequent.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12237 Posts
March 12 2011 07:38 GMT
#184
On March 12 2011 14:17 Archerofaiur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2011 14:11 ChrysaliS_ wrote:
On March 12 2011 10:41 Jago wrote:
On February 22 2011 15:13 Excalibur_Z wrote:For example, let's say two players are matched together, Player A with 1500 MMR and 0 points and Player B with 1000 MMR and 0 points. Each player would see the other as Favored

Err, what? Why?

Why on earth would a 1500 MMR player see the lesser player as Favored?


did you read the OP? favored means your opponent's MMR is greater than your points......



Oh man this brings up another thing

As MMR goes down and points go up your chances of being favored (i hope im doing this right) decrease over time?

Therefore as time goes on and MMR's depreciate favored points will become less frequent.


Your adjusted points don't go up unless you're performing well. Your displayed points only go up because of bonus pool. You're way overthinking the MMR recalibration, it in no way is as drastic as that.

What happens is that the larger the gap between your MMR and your points, the more likely you will face favored opponents. That's common for new players who have just been placed because they start out with 0 and typically their MMR is still pretty far from that initial placement point. If they keep winning, their Favored opponent streak continues. What typically happens is players will gradually arrive at their MMR, and their match history will go something like this: +48 +48 +48 +46 +46 +44 +44 -1 +42 -1 +40 -2 +36 -4 +30 -5 +28 -8 +24 -10 +20 -11 +22 -11 +24 -13.
Moderator
alp1ne
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada4 Posts
March 12 2011 16:22 GMT
#185
Does anyone else seem to notice or is it just me that the ladder does not seem to be "random"? What I mean by that was that when I was playing Zerg, the majority of my games were ZvZ and now I switched to toss and the majority of my games are PvP. 5/7 of my games this morning were PvP. Which would be fine if it wasnt my worst MU so its crusing me in terms of trying to move up or maintain a better than 50% w/l ratio. Not to mention most pvps play out the same way I find at my level anyways.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12237 Posts
March 12 2011 16:33 GMT
#186
On March 13 2011 01:22 alp1ne wrote:
Does anyone else seem to notice or is it just me that the ladder does not seem to be "random"? What I mean by that was that when I was playing Zerg, the majority of my games were ZvZ and now I switched to toss and the majority of my games are PvP. 5/7 of my games this morning were PvP. Which would be fine if it wasnt my worst MU so its crusing me in terms of trying to move up or maintain a better than 50% w/l ratio. Not to mention most pvps play out the same way I find at my level anyways.


That's just a coincidence. It's random.
Moderator
RyuChus
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada442 Posts
March 12 2011 16:35 GMT
#187
Sweet thanks for the really hard work! I want to read more but for now i have things to do!!!! Thanks for this it's awesome
I have an announcement to make, "Moo!" That is all.
neriofrio1
Profile Joined March 2011
5 Posts
March 13 2011 06:51 GMT
#188
--- Nuked ---
Tamerlane
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada424 Posts
March 13 2011 16:51 GMT
#189
Very nice guide Excalibur, I see that my first attempts at "mapping" the bnet ladder system during the beta produced worthy offsprings!
nvrs
Profile Joined October 2010
Greece481 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-14 15:31:19
March 14 2011 15:26 GMT
#190
On March 13 2011 01:33 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 13 2011 01:22 alp1ne wrote:
Does anyone else seem to notice or is it just me that the ladder does not seem to be "random"? What I mean by that was that when I was playing Zerg, the majority of my games were ZvZ and now I switched to toss and the majority of my games are PvP. 5/7 of my games this morning were PvP. Which would be fine if it wasnt my worst MU so its crusing me in terms of trying to move up or maintain a better than 50% w/l ratio. Not to mention most pvps play out the same way I find at my level anyways.


That's just a coincidence. It's random.



One thing that many ppl seem to ignore regarding the frequency that they face X race opponents is that one's veto list may play a huge role to it.
From a personal experience, before the last patch and the new maps i had more TvPs as a Terran player than TvZs and that was for looong period of time (not just a couple of days). However i had no maps vetoed and the most TvPs i was playing were on Steppes of War and Blistering sands, which makes sense cause the Protosses seemed to like these maps The moment i voted against them i started getting less TvPs and a lot more TvZs!

edit: If you think about it, ti makes a lot of sense. If there are about equal number of players from each race searching for a game at a given moment and you have voted against 3 maps which you feel uncomfortable in / feel good (which may well be a race thing), then the chance of you facing another race that "likes" these maps is lesser that getting yourself a mirror!
IamOBESE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States134 Posts
March 14 2011 15:33 GMT
#191
On March 15 2011 00:26 nvrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 13 2011 01:33 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On March 13 2011 01:22 alp1ne wrote:
Does anyone else seem to notice or is it just me that the ladder does not seem to be "random"? What I mean by that was that when I was playing Zerg, the majority of my games were ZvZ and now I switched to toss and the majority of my games are PvP. 5/7 of my games this morning were PvP. Which would be fine if it wasnt my worst MU so its crusing me in terms of trying to move up or maintain a better than 50% w/l ratio. Not to mention most pvps play out the same way I find at my level anyways.


That's just a coincidence. It's random.



One thing that many ppl seem to ignore regarding the frequency that they face X race opponents is that one's veto list may play a huge role to it.
From a personal experience, before the last patch and the new maps i had more TvPs as a Terran player than TvZs and that was for looong period of time (not just a couple of days). However i had no maps vetoed and the most TvPs i was playing were on Steppes of War and Blistering sands, which makes sense cause the Protosses seemed to like these maps The moment i voted against them i started getting less TvPs and a lot more TvZs!

edit: If you think about it, ti makes a lot of sense. If there are about equal number of players from each race searching for a game at a given moment and you have voted against 3 maps which you feel uncomfortable in / feel good (which may well be a race thing), then the chance of you facing another race that "likes" these maps is lesser that getting yourself a mirror!


I believe the system picks your opponent first, then chooses a map that neither of you have vetoed
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12237 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-14 15:37:07
March 14 2011 15:36 GMT
#192
^^^^^ This is true also, your opponent is picked before the map. At least, that would be the logical way to do it...

On March 15 2011 00:26 nvrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 13 2011 01:33 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On March 13 2011 01:22 alp1ne wrote:
Does anyone else seem to notice or is it just me that the ladder does not seem to be "random"? What I mean by that was that when I was playing Zerg, the majority of my games were ZvZ and now I switched to toss and the majority of my games are PvP. 5/7 of my games this morning were PvP. Which would be fine if it wasnt my worst MU so its crusing me in terms of trying to move up or maintain a better than 50% w/l ratio. Not to mention most pvps play out the same way I find at my level anyways.


That's just a coincidence. It's random.



One thing that many ppl seem to ignore regarding the frequency that they face X race opponents is that one's veto list may play a huge role to it.
From a personal experience, before the last patch and the new maps i had more TvPs as a Terran player than TvZs and that was for looong period of time (not just a couple of days). However i had no maps vetoed and the most TvPs i was playing were on Steppes of War and Blistering sands, which makes sense cause the Protosses seemed to like these maps The moment i voted against them i started getting less TvPs and a lot more TvZs!

edit: If you think about it, ti makes a lot of sense. If there are about equal number of players from each race searching for a game at a given moment and you have voted against 3 maps which you feel uncomfortable in / feel good (which may well be a race thing), then the chance of you facing another race that "likes" these maps is lesser that getting yourself a mirror!


Yeah that's absolutely true. I think we may see some sharp differences once the new 1v1 map pool is out, too (the one rumored on the KR server). Zerg players will likely veto the non-macro maps, Terran players will likely veto the macro maps.
Moderator
Prinate
Profile Joined October 2010
United States182 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-14 15:48:53
March 14 2011 15:44 GMT
#193
On March 15 2011 00:33 IamOBESE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2011 00:26 nvrs wrote:
On March 13 2011 01:33 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On March 13 2011 01:22 alp1ne wrote:
Does anyone else seem to notice or is it just me that the ladder does not seem to be "random"? What I mean by that was that when I was playing Zerg, the majority of my games were ZvZ and now I switched to toss and the majority of my games are PvP. 5/7 of my games this morning were PvP. Which would be fine if it wasnt my worst MU so its crusing me in terms of trying to move up or maintain a better than 50% w/l ratio. Not to mention most pvps play out the same way I find at my level anyways.


That's just a coincidence. It's random.



One thing that many ppl seem to ignore regarding the frequency that they face X race opponents is that one's veto list may play a huge role to it.
From a personal experience, before the last patch and the new maps i had more TvPs as a Terran player than TvZs and that was for looong period of time (not just a couple of days). However i had no maps vetoed and the most TvPs i was playing were on Steppes of War and Blistering sands, which makes sense cause the Protosses seemed to like these maps The moment i voted against them i started getting less TvPs and a lot more TvZs!

edit: If you think about it, ti makes a lot of sense. If there are about equal number of players from each race searching for a game at a given moment and you have voted against 3 maps which you feel uncomfortable in / feel good (which may well be a race thing), then the chance of you facing another race that "likes" these maps is lesser that getting yourself a mirror!


I believe the system picks your opponent first, then chooses a map that neither of you have vetoed


I believe it's possible to play on a map that you have vetoed, so why would that happen if what you say is true? I am 90% certain I've played on a vetoed map before, and others have claimed the same.

Unless this only happens in 2v2 or larger, at which point it'd be possible after the 4 players are selected, all map choices could potentially be vetoed between the 4+ players. I can't remember if my memory of playing on a veto map was 1v1 or a team game. I only remember thinking WTF?
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12237 Posts
March 17 2011 20:52 GMT
#194
Okay all you Cool Dudes, some really important info was posted today about the Grandmaster League in a Battle.net blog post. Specifics are always great so here's the FAQ:

Q. How do I enter the Grandmaster League?
A. To enter the Grandmaster League:
* There needs to be an open slot within the ladder.
* You need to be in the top 200 players according to a rolling average of your skill rating.
* You must be eligible.

Q. What does eligible mean?
A. To be eligible, your unused bonus pool must be less than 180.

Q. Can I be removed from the top 200?
A. Yes. If your unused bonus pool exceeds 270, you will be removed from the Grandmaster League.

Q. Is there a way to see who is in the Grandmaster League?
A. Yes. Click on the in-game ladder icon, and then click "Grandmaster" to see the current season rankings.

Q. How active do I need to be to stay in the Grandmaster League?
A. Your unused bonus pool must remain under 270. This means you can't get three weeks behind. This is equivalent to roughly 45 games.


What do we take away from this?

- The "inactivity threshold" is probably 270. This probably applies to all leagues.
- Players really are "locked" into GM league based on their MMR's moving average for the entire season until they accumulate 270 bonus pool, at which point they're dropped and a slot opens up. If they stay below 270 they won't be removed even if better players emerge.
- The "45 games" figure means that with a 50% win rate you will win 22.5 even matches which would allow you to spend 12 bonus pool per win or 270 over 45 games.
Moderator
The Touch
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom667 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-21 13:55:02
March 21 2011 13:53 GMT
#195
So I've read the OP and scanned the thread (absolutely fantastic work, by the way. Truly outstanding), but I can't find an answer to the following question:

I'm a little hazy on exactly how the moving average stabilisation works. Do we have any idea how long your moving average needs to be stable (at a level worthy of promotion) in order for the system to be sufficiently convinced that your performances warrant that promotion? For example, does your moving average need to be sufficiently stable for 10 games; 25 games; 50 games; before you can be promoted?

Also, do we have any info on how many games are used when calculating your moving average? Does it take into account every game you have played since you started, or only a certain number of your most recent games?
You Got The Touch
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12237 Posts
March 21 2011 17:26 GMT
#196
On March 21 2011 22:53 The Touch wrote:
So I've read the OP and scanned the thread (absolutely fantastic work, by the way. Truly outstanding), but I can't find an answer to the following question:

I'm a little hazy on exactly how the moving average stabilisation works. Do we have any idea how long your moving average needs to be stable (at a level worthy of promotion) in order for the system to be sufficiently convinced that your performances warrant that promotion? For example, does your moving average need to be sufficiently stable for 10 games; 25 games; 50 games; before you can be promoted?

Also, do we have any info on how many games are used when calculating your moving average? Does it take into account every game you have played since you started, or only a certain number of your most recent games?


The moving average, by design, only encompasses the performance of your last X games. It could be last 5, 10, 15, we don't know.
Moderator
The Touch
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom667 Posts
March 21 2011 23:11 GMT
#197
On March 22 2011 02:26 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2011 22:53 The Touch wrote:
So I've read the OP and scanned the thread (absolutely fantastic work, by the way. Truly outstanding), but I can't find an answer to the following question:

I'm a little hazy on exactly how the moving average stabilisation works. Do we have any idea how long your moving average needs to be stable (at a level worthy of promotion) in order for the system to be sufficiently convinced that your performances warrant that promotion? For example, does your moving average need to be sufficiently stable for 10 games; 25 games; 50 games; before you can be promoted?

Also, do we have any info on how many games are used when calculating your moving average? Does it take into account every game you have played since you started, or only a certain number of your most recent games?


The moving average, by design, only encompasses the performance of your last X games. It could be last 5, 10, 15, we don't know.


Fair enough. Do we have any info at all or is this something that is just likely to remain a mystery, so to speak?
You Got The Touch
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12237 Posts
March 22 2011 00:06 GMT
#198
On March 22 2011 08:11 The Touch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2011 02:26 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On March 21 2011 22:53 The Touch wrote:
So I've read the OP and scanned the thread (absolutely fantastic work, by the way. Truly outstanding), but I can't find an answer to the following question:

I'm a little hazy on exactly how the moving average stabilisation works. Do we have any idea how long your moving average needs to be stable (at a level worthy of promotion) in order for the system to be sufficiently convinced that your performances warrant that promotion? For example, does your moving average need to be sufficiently stable for 10 games; 25 games; 50 games; before you can be promoted?

Also, do we have any info on how many games are used when calculating your moving average? Does it take into account every game you have played since you started, or only a certain number of your most recent games?


The moving average, by design, only encompasses the performance of your last X games. It could be last 5, 10, 15, we don't know.


Fair enough. Do we have any info at all or is this something that is just likely to remain a mystery, so to speak?


We will very likely never know the interval of the moving average.
Moderator
Kambing
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1176 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 16:58:54
March 22 2011 16:58 GMT
#199
Something just struck me that would be nice to figure out during this lockdown period:

Does your MMR change during the lockdown period, or are you "stuck in place" until lock down ends?

In particular, if someone is in deep bronze during the lockdown period but then goes on a 100 game winning streak, will they be ready for promotion once the ladder is reset? Or did those 100 games not count for the purposes of their MMR/league placement. (Of course they certainly counted towards the person's final placement in their bronze league).

I can see the system working either way from a theoretical perspective. MMR may not change during lockdown so that your opponent skill levels stay consistent thus not gimping your opportunities to gain points if you go on a hot streak. On the other hand, the favored system may be the "slack" that makes up this difference (i.e., if you go on a hot streak and then get punted back down, you will gain more points going up the ladder and then lose less going down), so it is fine from a competition perspective if your MMR does change.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12237 Posts
March 22 2011 17:09 GMT
#200
On March 23 2011 01:58 Kambing wrote:
Something just struck me that would be nice to figure out during this lockdown period:

Does your MMR change during the lockdown period, or are you "stuck in place" until lock down ends?

In particular, if someone is in deep bronze during the lockdown period but then goes on a 100 game winning streak, will they be ready for promotion once the ladder is reset? Or did those 100 games not count for the purposes of their MMR/league placement. (Of course they certainly counted towards the person's final placement in their bronze league).

I can see the system working either way from a theoretical perspective. MMR may not change during lockdown so that your opponent skill levels stay consistent thus not gimping your opportunities to gain points if you go on a hot streak. On the other hand, the favored system may be the "slack" that makes up this difference (i.e., if you go on a hot streak and then get punted back down, you will gain more points going up the ladder and then lose less going down), so it is fine from a competition perspective if your MMR does change.


MMR still changes. If your skill level changes dramatically enough as compared to the rest of the population, then you may not find yourself in the same league after your Season 2 placement match.
Moderator
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