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On February 10 2011 13:17 Elefanto wrote:
i still don't get what they want to show here.
are they searching imbalances, and if yes, how do they want to point them out?
what's the actual definition of their point of imbalance?
i mean the stuff they are talking about is visible to everyone following the pro scene, where these scenarios happen often.
do they want us to sensibilize us that actually not everything looking strong is imbalance?
The show is about discussing topics in which readers and fans send to them which they believe may be imbalanced. Idra and Artosis are using their professional expertise to then discuss the topics that people have suggested to talk about.
Idra and Artosis discuss their thoughts on why they believe people may see XYZ is imbalanced and then not only give their professional opinion, but also suggest many ways in which the other player can deal with XYZ. They then follow a detailed discussion with what their conclusions are and if they believe XYZ is imbalanced or not. Which for the most part they will be reluctant to do.
EDIT: I also believe that one of the main reasons in which people think this show is better than the first one is because it does not contain any zerg. People are reluctant to believe anything Idra or Artosis say about zerg because they cannot believe they can analyze zerg play properly without being biased.
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I liked this episode a lot and I think the more that you do these types of discussions, the more organic the conversations will be. The first episode felt kinda scripted and a little robotic at times, but this felt more like you were have a really nice fire-side chat about imbalance.
In fact, get two chairs, and put them in front of a fire place and wear fancy robes. It would be like Masterpiece Theater, but with Starcraft, and Imbalance.
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On February 10 2011 11:54 Dommk wrote:
I think the conclusion of it being easier for the Terran in this situation best describes it, it is not impossible to hold off, but there is a lot more pressure on the Protoss to not fuck up, one missed force field, not enough sentries, too many sentres, positioning, unit combination, choosing the right time to tech whilst getting pressured...
Adding to this, I think Artosis and Idra are mistaking the words imbalanced with invincible. Winnable situations can still be imbalanced. Just because protoss can hold of some terran rushes with certain sentry number, a specific build, doesn't mean it's fine. Then i can say to you go figure out the number of corruptors per colossus/stalker for them to be super effective. There must be a number, and therefore by your logic, it's not imbalanced.
Also saying that there must be some (which you don't know and have no idea which are) unit compositions that don't include colossus that are good vs zerg is a bit weak of an argument. You forgot that unlike protoss, zerg can tech switch. Colossus as you said, are both good vs roaches and hydras. But if you starts with a lot of roaches, the P doesn't go colossus, goes immortals + stalker, the zerg decides to switch to hydras +speedlings, sup protoss? Instantly all P's army is countered by the zerg's. You also seem to forget how long it really takes to get HT, and how much gas they cost. And a protoss fighting a zerg without colossus and HT is just painful to watch.
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What they were talking about the BW PvT is either needing a tank to hold your wall against zealot+goon early attack or mass repair the front bunker after goon range kicks in.
@topic: I wish they talked about the reasons why some strategies just don't work, in this case, why are cannons or reapers not-so-useful tools in early game? How would it play out if those units/buildings took another role?
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On February 10 2011 13:38 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I liked this episode a lot and I think the more that you do these types of discussions, the more organic the conversations will be. The first episode felt kinda scripted and a little robotic at times, but this felt more like you were have a really nice fire-side chat about imbalance.
In fact, get two chairs, and put them in front of a fire place and wear fancy robes. It would be like Masterpiece Theater, but with Starcraft, and Imbalance.
Hahahahaha..
That would definitely be hilarious.
good episode this time guys, keep it up, i'm enjoying them.
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hahahha the animals in the backround are making me laugh so hard
I feel that if you buffed corruptor range A LOT.. to that of vikings or so, and perhaps even there damage, that PvZ would be balanced. Sometimes it doesnt matter if you have 13 corruptors in a battle, the 6 colossus kill everything essentially before they die.
With 13 corruptors with a HUGE range, you can float over crevasses and try to snipe colossus like terrans do with vikings, so the protoss have to actually micro their colossus / blink stalkers.
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I liked seeing idra giggle at the cat for some reason ahaha, great to see him happy : )
great video guys!
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Great episode and I agree that T v P is balanced at the moment. I hope you guys do T v Z next week, that one I feel is imbalanced in Terran's favor. Part of the problem with that matchup imo is how fast Terran can block off scouting, Terran can do it so much faster than Protoss because Protoss requires the cybernetics core before they have any mobile anti-air whereas Terrans get marines with just the barracks.
Okay so what's so bad about Terran's being able to block off scouting sooner than the other races? Well the fact that Terran is the most versatile race is what makes it so bad. They have so many strong and effective strategies such as mass marines, mass marauders, banshee rush, blue-flame hellion drops, marines + thors. Each of those strategies requires a different response from Zerg, and if you don't scout the Terran's strategy early enough you will lose.
Sometimes your scouting overlord dies before it gets to spot the Terran's strat, and if you lose that overlord you're screwed because overlords are so slow it'd take forever to get another one in there. Terran on the other hand just have to click one button to scan anywhere they want (it's true that a scan costs a mule which is about 300 minerals but you don't lose those minerals, the mule only gets you those minerals quicker).
So I think Zerg needs a better way to scout a Terran's base, and it has to be early in the game. How about an underground scouting unit (lives only underground, and can't attack) that can move underground sort of like Roaches can do?
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The 2nd show was far more enjoyable than the 1st, where enjoyable is determined by "balanced". I think it's natural that a player with experience with one race will just have a skewed version of balance related to that class, even if they're trying to be objective. Even if they're trying to be academic about it. However, from this perspective, both players were very deferential about what they were describing. Brining in the emails and comments really gave their comments from episode 1 more perspective. I really found myself enjoying the conversation.
Good work on this episode. Won me over.
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Big Heart to Artosis, Idra, and the cat
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Again guys please consider a podcast / using replays as video aid. Watching you psyche out Greg with a High5 made my heart cry tears, felt so bad for Greg lol :D
BUT --> Early Ghosts ?!?!?!! <-- Didn't talk about it or did I miss it?
Again awesome show. I never realised but its soo true - everything Protoss has to deal with stuff is really gas heavy.
♥
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I have a feeling corruptors with contaminate would ruin ZvZ.
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(3.2k Masters)
I think the show would really benefit from a Terran perspective. While artosis and Idra do try to give terran a fair point of view, there are some things that they get wrong.
1. Phoenix/Colossus
-the reason this is really hard to deal with is because colossus have insane range, and stalkers destroy vikings. So that really rules out any flanking by vikings. What Idra said about keeping marines w/ vikings is also not possible, b/c the time it takes for vikings/marines to kill the phoenix, the colossus have had ample time to destroy the bio.
2. Bio Openings
early bio pressure isn't as strong as they make it out to be, esp. on maps like xel'naga or maps with ramps, toss forcefield destroy these bio pushes. 1gate FE can solidly hold off most bio pushes, and definitely holds off 2rax FE. I use 2rax FE often, and my goal is just to trade down armies here.
Just my 2 cents
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another job very well done -- definitely worth the 50 minutes, i watched most of it twice, constantly rewinding and taking notes.. can't wait for ep 3
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You guys didnt mention EMP at all. If you rely on sentry energy to hold off an attack, and a single ghost EMPs your sentries, it is game over.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 10 2011 13:55 NExt wrote:
Again guys please consider a podcast / using replays as video aid. Watching you psyche out Greg with a High5 made my heart cry tears, felt so bad for Greg lol :D
BUT --> Early Ghosts ?!?!?!! <-- Didn't talk about it or did I miss it?
Again awesome show. I never realised but its soo true - everything Protoss has to deal with stuff is really gas heavy.
♥
If you get ghost before vikings in your typical mmm+v+g army, you will get overrun by 1 robo colossus. ~3 colo sieging your bunker line and picking off your ghosts is never fun for terran.
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On February 10 2011 11:13 infinity21 wrote:
IdrA completely glossed over phoenix colo unit mix in TvP... Yes rine/viking will do just fine against phoenix harass BUT at the time of engagement, before vikings can do any significant damage, the marines will melt to a significant number of colo. Then T has to make the choice to ignore phoenix and fire at the colo which may kill off 2-4 but at the cost of air dominance. Then the phoenix will simply lift up half of your remaining marauders and clean up.
My point is, after a certain point, colo/phoenix can't be cracked with simple mmm+viking.
Just curious if you think adding a few Ghosts with EMP would make the difference in this engagement? Seem's like it would but I don't play Terran and theory-craft is easy compared to practical use.
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Remember people, we don't need to be hostile when discussing this stuff. A friendly chat about balance is not difficult, just don't let your emotions get the best of you.
On February 10 2011 13:13 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote:
It's hard to justify any sort of buff to protoss though since they have their own allins that are ridiculous and any buffs for protoss vs zerg right now would be ludicrous. The only options would be to nerf Tbio, at least early on, so that protoss doesn't have to go so far out of the way to survive early pressure and perhaps have a little more flexibility in openings (diversity of the game is a good thing!).
Can you do that without taking into account that terran lategame vs protoss is very flimsy and arguably imbalanced the other way? If terran doesn't get the early advantages from rushes or free wins from protoss fumbles early on, can they still maintain an equal game to protoss? Will it swing TvP in the favor of protoss really heavily?
I think it might, but that's because T lategame needs some love and P lategame might even need some nerfs. However, you cannot have a matchup where 1 race has to allin to have the best chance of winning because their lategame isn't viable. That doesn't make for a balanced/interesting game. Perhaps nerfing bio without upgrades somewhat but making upgrades more powerful to make up for the nerf would help? It would stop early 3raxes and 2raxes from killing protoss but would still allow bio to be formidable into the mid and late-game. Another thing to consider in TvP lategame would be making battlecruisers a little more accessible (perhaps lowering their cost a bit as they seem prohibitively expensive right now for what they can do). It sounds crazy but Protoss doesn't have any really good ground-based anti-air units other than Stalkers. In my view, the BCs would be used to yamato colossi then act as a damage tank while the bio force cleans up everything. Psi storm sucks against BCs and feedback only puts a small dent in their huge amount of health, especially after they have shot off their yamato. Of course void rays would slaughter them but chances are the protoss will be too far down the robo path to switch into them in time, especially if they are maxed with their colossi/templar/gateway deathball.
I'm probably way off but I thought it would be an interesting idea to discuss.
Also, this show was much better than the last. The points were clearer and it felt much less biased. Keep up the good work guys.
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On February 10 2011 14:06 McMonty wrote:
You guys didnt mention EMP at all. If you rely on sentry energy to hold off an attack, and a single ghost EMPs your sentries, it is game over.
it's your fault then for letting him emp them all with a single ghost...
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EPT
