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On February 10 2011 14:06 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 13:55 NExt wrote:
Again guys please consider a podcast / using replays as video aid. Watching you psyche out Greg with a High5 made my heart cry tears, felt so bad for Greg lol :D
BUT --> Early Ghosts ?!?!?!! <-- Didn't talk about it or did I miss it?
Again awesome show. I never realised but its soo true - everything Protoss has to deal with stuff is really gas heavy.
♥ If you get ghost before vikings in your typical mmm+v+g army, you will get overrun by 1 robo colossus. ~3 colo sieging your bunker line and picking off your ghosts is never fun for terran.
early ghost - i.e. 8 - 10 minute bio push with ghosts. Show is about openings and ghost openings are quite strong imo and was curious on what they thought about it.
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I wish they would of brought up the maps role in TvP thats such a big issue in this MU.
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On February 10 2011 14:05 Moki.tv wrote:
(3.2k Masters)
I think the show would really benefit from a Terran perspective. While artosis and Idra do try to give terran a fair point of view, there are some things that they get wrong.
1. Phoenix/Colossus
-the reason this is really hard to deal with is because colossus have insane range, and stalkers destroy vikings. So that really rules out any flanking by vikings. What Idra said about keeping marines w/ vikings is also not possible, b/c the time it takes for vikings/marines to kill the phoenix, the colossus have had ample time to destroy the bio.
2. Bio Openings
early bio pressure isn't as strong as they make it out to be, esp. on maps like xel'naga or maps with ramps, toss forcefield destroy these bio pushes. 1gate FE can solidly hold off most bio pushes, and definitely holds off 2rax FE. I use 2rax FE often, and my goal is just to trade down armies here.
Just my 2 cents
Excellent post.
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On February 10 2011 14:05 Moki.tv wrote:
(3.2k Masters)
I think the show would really benefit from a Terran perspective. While artosis and Idra do try to give terran a fair point of view, there are some things that they get wrong.
1. Phoenix/Colossus
-the reason this is really hard to deal with is because colossus have insane range, and stalkers destroy vikings. So that really rules out any flanking by vikings. What Idra said about keeping marines w/ vikings is also not possible, b/c the time it takes for vikings/marines to kill the phoenix, the colossus have had ample time to destroy the bio.
2. Bio Openings
early bio pressure isn't as strong as they make it out to be, esp. on maps like xel'naga or maps with ramps, toss forcefield destroy these bio pushes. 1gate FE can solidly hold off most bio pushes, and definitely holds off 2rax FE. I use 2rax FE often, and my goal is just to trade down armies here.
Just my 2 cents
I agree with 1.
But I would like to say that they did highlight Protoss does need to learn how to place forcefields well and good resource allocation to be able to deal with early bio pushes.
Otherwise all true 
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 10 2011 14:14 NExt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 14:06 infinity21 wrote:On February 10 2011 13:55 NExt wrote:
Again guys please consider a podcast / using replays as video aid. Watching you psyche out Greg with a High5 made my heart cry tears, felt so bad for Greg lol :D
BUT --> Early Ghosts ?!?!?!! <-- Didn't talk about it or did I miss it?
Again awesome show. I never realised but its soo true - everything Protoss has to deal with stuff is really gas heavy.
♥ If you get ghost before vikings in your typical mmm+v+g army, you will get overrun by 1 robo colossus. ~3 colo sieging your bunker line and picking off your ghosts is never fun for terran. early ghost - i.e. 8 - 10 minute bio push with ghosts. Show is about openings and ghost openings are quite strong imo and was curious on what they thought about it.
8-10 minute push sounds pretty late... off 1 base? Can you post a video/rep of the build?
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Early ghost openings are pretty old, I remeber those being really popular at release, but nothing really beats the flexibilty of a 2 rax FE or a 3-4 rax all in. Both of those builds are very strong early game openers. The early ghost build is kind of in the middle, the ghosts just take too long to get so timings get thrown off and you cant go ghost/expo effectively because they eat so much gas you ahve to get 2 geysers so if toss FE's and your delayed ghost timing attack doesnt work you are miles behind the P.
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On February 10 2011 14:23 infinity21 wrote:
8-10 minute push sounds pretty late... off 1 base? Can you post a video/rep of the build?
:'( just cleaned out my replays folder. But i dont know all i remember is i got ghosted made things very difficult in the early game.
But is it that late? earliest possible Colossus with a realistic Gateway support army comes at 9 minutes. One basing and all - so later if 2 base etc.. but that small window is pretty vulnerable to Ghosts.
iunno i've always wondered why don't T always get Ghosts (I don't play Terran) but how far does the Ghost tech set Terrans behind ? or sacrifice or whatever? as a Toss I believe their quite cost effective.
edit:
and as I was typing my reply. this makes sense. but surely there are builds that allow you to get ghosts @ a nice timing.
Early ghost openings are pretty old, I remeber those being really popular at release, but nothing really beats the flexibilty of a 2 rax FE or a 3-4 rax all in. Both of those builds are very strong early game openers. The early ghost build is kind of in the middle, the ghosts just take too long to get so timings get thrown off and you cant go ghost/expo effectively because they eat so much gas you ahve to get 2 geysers so if toss FE's and your delayed ghost timing attack doesnt work you are miles behind the P.
now that i think about it - Are early ghosts considered all in? cause whenever i see ghosts if i dont lose I just race to Colossi.
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Any terran saying bio with stim is not good versus toss due to forcefield is just not looking at the reality. Personally as a toss, I would like stim mm to be weaker in early game example: make stim factory required upgrade or cost more(like 200/200) or require another building like EE bay to build it. This way the stim timing comes a lot later. However, as a toss player I recognize late game TvP is almost unplayable unless you can somehow secretly go BC and get like 5 of them without toss noticing or are like 2-3 bases ahead of toss due to temp warpin. My suggestion is to make templar amulet more expansive(like 250/250 and increase gas cost of temps to 200 instead of 150. This way toss can't freely spam high temps+immortals as soon as he reach 3 bases but would require 4-5.
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I think both Terrans and Protoss feel the other race is imbalanced. I, as a Terran, shit myself against a competent Protoss. But, I really think alot of what makes the matchup so scary is how small the maps are. This game has alot more hard counters, and without the Tank being the backbone it was, the game can literally end in 2 seconds flat.
With maps getting larger I think that will mend some of the issues both races face. AND, I think mech will be alot more powerful now than before. Terran will be able to have 3 bases. But the warp in mechanic is still troublesome for everyone against P.
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FF is sick good vs bio... but I can understand Protoss's pain having to depend on such a thing to live so early.
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They need to keep the definition of imbalance very clear. It is possible for one unit (colossus) to be so much better than that races' other units that its not worth getting anything else, and still have a balanced game.
One example is mass dott's vs orc in wc3.
If, for example, protoss can beat any zerg strat by just massing colossi, but zerg can also win, then the game is balanced even though protoss only make one unit.
I'm not saying that this massing of one unit strat would not be extremely boring. I also can't say it's not bad for the game, but it's not imbalance, since the matchup would be balanced.
People are always going to find the cheapest, easiest thing they can to get a win. That's how standard play is found.
I don't think one unit should get nerfed just to force people to consider using other units.
Edit: lol on the high five deny by artosis.
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On February 10 2011 14:39 Gwaltgw wrote:
I don't think one unit should get nerfed just to force people to consider using other units.
This is essentially what happened with reapers and roaches (beta).
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Is there anyway you could make an MP3 out of this? Id love to listen to these episodes at work.
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On February 10 2011 14:34 NExt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 14:23 infinity21 wrote:
8-10 minute push sounds pretty late... off 1 base? Can you post a video/rep of the build? :'( just cleaned out my replays folder. But i dont know all i remember is i got ghosted made things very difficult in the early game. But is it that late? earliest possible Colossus with a realistic Gateway support army comes at 9 minutes. One basing and all - so later if 2 base etc.. but that small window is pretty vulnerable to Ghosts. iunno i've always wondered why don't T always get Ghosts (I don't play Terran) but how far does the Ghost tech set Terrans behind ? or sacrifice or whatever? as a Toss I believe their quite cost effective. edit: and as I was typing my reply. this makes sense. but surely there are builds that allow you to get ghosts @ a nice timing. Show nested quote +
Early ghost openings are pretty old, I remeber those being really popular at release, but nothing really beats the flexibilty of a 2 rax FE or a 3-4 rax all in. Both of those builds are very strong early game openers. The early ghost build is kind of in the middle, the ghosts just take too long to get so timings get thrown off and you cant go ghost/expo effectively because they eat so much gas you ahve to get 2 geysers so if toss FE's and your delayed ghost timing attack doesnt work you are miles behind the P.
now that i think about it - Are early ghosts considered all in? cause whenever i see ghosts if i dont lose I just race to Colossi.
I definately consider it all in, it just eats so much gas, that theres no way you can transition to medivacs in a good amount of time because your expo is so delayed.
Ghosts are so much better when they are added later on in the game. EMP is much better when the Protss ball gets really big and I need EMPs to put a dent in it.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 10 2011 14:34 NExt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 14:23 infinity21 wrote:
8-10 minute push sounds pretty late... off 1 base? Can you post a video/rep of the build? :'( just cleaned out my replays folder. But i dont know all i remember is i got ghosted made things very difficult in the early game. But is it that late? earliest possible Colossus with a realistic Gateway support army comes at 9 minutes. One basing and all - so later if 2 base etc.. but that small window is pretty vulnerable to Ghosts. iunno i've always wondered why don't T always get Ghosts (I don't play Terran) but how far does the Ghost tech set Terrans behind ? or sacrifice or whatever? as a Toss I believe their quite cost effective. edit: and as I was typing my reply. this makes sense. but surely there are builds that allow you to get ghosts @ a nice timing. Show nested quote +
Early ghost openings are pretty old, I remeber those being really popular at release, but nothing really beats the flexibilty of a 2 rax FE or a 3-4 rax all in. Both of those builds are very strong early game openers. The early ghost build is kind of in the middle, the ghosts just take too long to get so timings get thrown off and you cant go ghost/expo effectively because they eat so much gas you ahve to get 2 geysers so if toss FE's and your delayed ghost timing attack doesnt work you are miles behind the P.
now that i think about it - Are early ghosts considered all in? cause whenever i see ghosts if i dont lose I just race to Colossi.
Yes early ghost is pretty much all-in as once P gets colo, mm+ghost is not a viable composition. Also, getting ghost is very gas heavy so your factory & starport tech will be way later. Expoing doesn't help as colo scales very well vs bio.
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I don't think marine/maurader early game is imbalanced. I agree with them, it might be hard to hold it off with sentry's but that doesn't make it imbalanced.
As for late game pvt, I'm not sure thats imbalanced either. I think terran just has to explore more unit combinations vs the late game protoss army before I would say that its imbalanced. Sometimes when I play pvt it feels like there was nothing the terran could do to stop my army, but when I play vs a good player who is dropping me everywhere and has really good macro, it feels like there is nothing I can do. So I think pvt just really comes down to who plays the better game. Certain times it feels like my protoss deathball is unbeatable and certain times it feels like the terran deathball is unbeatable, and usually its just because one player just straight up out-plays the other one. The player that won is imbalanced, not the races themselves. But this is just from my own experience of playing this matchup a lot.
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On February 10 2011 14:44 DyEnasTy wrote:
Is there anyway you could make an MP3 out of this? Id love to listen to these episodes at work.
Just google youtube to mp3, but its gonna take a while cause its like 50 minutes but...
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On February 10 2011 11:13 infinity21 wrote:
IdrA completely glossed over phoenix colo unit mix in TvP... Yes rine/viking will do just fine against phoenix harass BUT at the time of engagement, before vikings can do any significant damage, the marines will melt to a significant number of colo. Then T has to make the choice to ignore phoenix and fire at the colo which may kill off 2-4 but at the cost of air dominance. Then the phoenix will simply lift up half of your remaining marauders and clean up.
My point is, after a certain point, colo/phoenix can't be cracked with simple mmm+viking.
stop reading my thoughts!!!!!
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should release these in mp3 format too!
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EPT
