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On February 10 2011 14:05 Moki.tv wrote:
(3.2k Masters)
I think the show would really benefit from a Terran perspective. While artosis and Idra do try to give terran a fair point of view, there are some things that they get wrong.
1. Phoenix/Colossus
-the reason this is really hard to deal with is because colossus have insane range, and stalkers destroy vikings. So that really rules out any flanking by vikings. What Idra said about keeping marines w/ vikings is also not possible, b/c the time it takes for vikings/marines to kill the phoenix, the colossus have had ample time to destroy the bio.
2. Bio Openings
early bio pressure isn't as strong as they make it out to be, esp. on maps like xel'naga or maps with ramps, toss forcefield destroy these bio pushes. 1gate FE can solidly hold off most bio pushes, and definitely holds off 2rax FE. I use 2rax FE often, and my goal is just to trade down armies here.
Just my 2 cents
100% agreed.
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I think this show is awesome! I never thought of a gas steal when I go DT. By the time you know what the early pressure is going to be like you can decide to go Zealot Legs, Blink, or HT if the DT is looking bad. I personally don't like Colossus and havent learned to use them well. But the problem I always run into is that I never have enough gas for Sentries.
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Can't stop laughing at the cat
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On February 10 2011 14:08 Ben... wrote:
Another thing to consider in TvP lategame would be making battlecruisers a little more accessible (perhaps lowering their cost a bit as they seem prohibitively expensive right now for what they can do). It sounds crazy but Protoss doesn't have any really good ground-based anti-air units other than Stalkers. In my view, the BCs would be used to yamato colossi then act as a damage tank while the bio force cleans up everything. Psi storm sucks against BCs and feedback only puts a small dent in their huge amount of health, especially after they have shot off their yamato. Of course void rays would slaughter them but chances are the protoss will be too far down the robo path to switch into them in time, especially if they are maxed with their colossi/templar/gateway deathball.
I'm probably way off but I thought it would be an interesting idea to discuss.
I think the reason that BCs received a 20% AtG DPS nerf a few patches ago was because Protoss has no ground based AA other than the Stalker, which is dies extremely fast to the ground units under the BC. Well, more than that, BCs, iirc, were actually cost effective against Hydralisks in a straight up fight, never find that BCs can use terrain to avoid a full on engagement.
Void rays, btw, do the same damage now to massive units at full charge that they did before the patch 1.1.2 nerf to VRs fully charged damage. They're a moderate counter to BCs, because Yamato kills a Void Ray in one shot. 2 VRs have the same cost as 1 BC, but if the Terran can Yamato half of them...
Also, you can feedback a BC that is charging a Yamato shot. The BC doesn't pay the energy until it fires. Feedback (or EMP) before then will cancel it. I'm assuming that Blizzard did this intentionally.
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zomg we saw artosis' cat
One thing I am surprised you guys didn't talk about, is simply getting charge on your way to HT to hold off stim pushes. You can get that pretty timely.. you will be getting a bunch of zealots so the 200 gas for the upgrade doesn't affect you THAT much on 2 bases. From my experience, a lot of chargelots can deal with MM very well with some stalkers / immortals.
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blizzard better nerf terran, or somebody else will
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For everyone who wants an audio version. "video2mp3.net" 
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Does anyone else think they should rename the series from "Imbalanced" to "difficult situations". The conclusion of this topic really didn't feel like they were saying anything was imbalanced, just it takes some skill/practice to counter other strategies.
Maybe it shouldn't be renamed, but the overall message was "there is always something you can do to beat X strategy"
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All protoss late game units are vulnerable to air except high templar seems pretty easy to counter to me. What are the protoss going to pull the strong transfer from colossus to void ray. Vikings ftw.
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Im now 10 minutes into a show about TvP openings and hearing that corruptors need to get contaminate...
This show is so cancerous. Hopefully the discussions spurred as a result is valuable to community because Idra and Artosis' opinion is not.
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Outdated. Since the patch, 2stargate chrono phoenix = 2port reactor viking production. Used to work though.
Also, always enjoy artosis vods ~ thx yo
So Protoss needs two production structures and continuous chronoboosts to match one production facility at normal speed?
You really didn't think that through, didn't you?
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On February 10 2011 16:31 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +Outdated. Since the patch, 2stargate chrono phoenix = 2port reactor viking production. Used to work though.
Also, always enjoy artosis vods ~ thx yo So Protoss needs two production structures and continuous chronoboosts to match one production facility at normal speed? You really didn't think that through, didn't you?
i think you're ignoring the reactor component of what he said there; that is, 2 stargate phoenix is equal to 2 starports with reactors pumping out vikings (so 3 or 4 vikings each).
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United States7483 Posts
They kind of glossed over the really big problem with this matchup. Terran is very strong with almost any type of build they choose to go with: whether it be bio, mech, or air (banshees) etc. Every one of these requires a pretty skewed response from Protoss to deal with, or Protoss is in a world of trouble. Because terran has so many strong build options, Protoss needs good scouting information to be able to respond. The problem is, Protoss has terrible scouting early game. Once the observers are out they are fine, but that requires a robo which takes a while, and early aggression builds are already hitting. Once the first rax is done and out, your probe is either dying or is gone, and a terran who walls off basically denies you even the opportunity to scout before observer. You 'can' scout with hallucinate, but the fact that they could be getting cloaked banshees means you NEED to get the robo and get observers anyway (throwing the robo down after hallucinate is done and you've scouted a cloaked banshee play is too late). You can scout up the ramp with a stalker, but if they have 'a' marauder with concussive shells, you could easily lose that unit.
So basically, Protoss is playing blind, and has to either get a build order win or loss most of the time. And it's very unfortunate that this is the case, because of how strong terran early aggression is.
And on the other end, if the protoss lives to the late game without being at a massive disadvantage, it's extremely hard for terran to keep up, because of how terran production facilities work. If you've got a ton of rax churning out bio, you pretty much have to keep going bio even after toss has storm/colossi out. Protoss tends to be very strong late game against terran, due to the AoE mechanics vs. bio and how easy it is to stop terran heavy air play. I think well executed mech is terran's best chance, but it's extremely difficult to play that well and most terrans I don't think have the ability or the patience (not that it's a balance issue, like IdrA and artosis said: some styles are just easier than others, but that doesn't make the tougher to play one weaker). In general, late game Protoss seems to be stronger than late game Terran, so the game either turns into protoss walking over terran or terran doing 1 million drops to try to force small engagements.
The race with lower aggression needs to have better scouting, and it's not the case in this matchup. It's fine in ZvP because of how easy it is to sacrifice an overlord (it's not free, but it's not difficult to do for the most part).
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On February 10 2011 15:44 DONTPANIC wrote:
I think this show is awesome! I never thought of a gas steal when I go DT. By the time you know what the early pressure is going to be like you can decide to go Zealot Legs, Blink, or HT if the DT is looking bad. I personally don't like Colossus and havent learned to use them well. But the problem I always run into is that I never have enough gas for Sentries.
Well you gas stealing a terran is encouraging them to go towards bio right? DTs are actually especially good against NON-bio builds from terran because bio is by far the most efficient way to play terran. Essentially a bio terran's infrastructure is set up to be build a high mineral low gas type army. As such, they are able to replace the army fairly quickly on the same production while teching towards a raven. Conversely, if they are going mech or 1/1/1 and you go DT's you know they will already be really strapped for gas or its likely they wont be able to constantly use all of their prodction/infrastructure effectively. Any damage you do with dts against such an opener is that much stronger because those types of units are harder to replace than the marine your dt one or two shot.
DT rush is a very map dependent build as well. You will likely take a build order loss if they do a raven opener on a map with only one real point of entry to their base. However on some maps, DTs can be effective despite a fast raven from the terran and fulfill its purpose of keeping them in their base. Just warp them in where their units arent or where their raven isnt. You will lose them, yes, but the effect of keeping them in their base is why you went DT's in the first place.
If I'm going DT's the last thing I want to see is some kind of rax heavy play so im not going to gas steal and encourage them to do it. This is also why the last place I would turn to PvT advice is a show hosted by two zergs that consider their shortcomings a flaw built into the game.
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On February 10 2011 11:35 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 11:31 Fa1nT wrote:On February 10 2011 11:28 Ratel wrote:
you guys reallllly should change the "2 guys on couch" arrangement Greenscreen + planet Char behind them :D gracken and Archon back ground, wait is Artosis a high or dark templar?
i would have said Dark Templar, until i remembered that Artosis hates DT's more than ANYTHING in this world 
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I actually learned a lot about how to play better protoss from this. I think I will be doing my 2 gate robo expand more often instead of 3 gate. Does anyone have good 2 gate robo builds for pvt that works for them?
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I'm surprised the final verdict wasn't "Yes it's imbalanced", but it goes to show, they are not focusing on the lower level players.
As a shitty player myself, I despise how early and cheap the Terran upgrades are, and I don't think that being able to deal with it with a tremendous amount of skill makes it balanced, unless "dealing with it" is actually a clear victory. I believe that if the upgrades took longer, or if Stim simply didn't multiply the firing rate as much, you'd actually see more skill and fun from all levels of play. Much like the power of the Colossus.
I love your discussions, I can't help feeling like I want some production value behind it, some editing with title overlays for different topics, etc. If I was in your shoes I wouldn't be quick to do that either, but hopefully over time if your series doesn't succumb to the flaming, we can evolve that.
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Two out of two shows coming to a conclusion of "I think not." when asking the question of imbalance about the topic in the end. If they continue like this there wont be many topics left very soon ... because imbalance is all about the very very very strong unit / tactic.
Personally I think the show needs to change the style and not talk about a matchup / tactic / unit with IMBALANCE in mind but rather looking for strengths and weaknesses and ways to improve either side in a battle. Just pick a matchup / tactic and look for strengths and weaknesses.
"To be able to beat that you probably need ..."
"Here is a nifty trick to improve your gameplay: ..."
In the end they can still ask the question of imbalance, but it would sound much better if they asked something like "Is this beatable?" or "For which side is it harder to execute?" (easy-mode takes less of a toll on the player in a professional environment and thus it might make race X more successful).
Oh and obviously the impact of maps needs to be addressed more ...
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Personally I think the show needs to change the style and not talk about a matchup / tactic / unit with IMBALANCE in mind but rather looking for strengths and weaknesses and ways to improve either side in a battle. Just pick a matchup / tactic and look for strengths and weaknesses.
"To be able to beat that you probably need ..."
"Here is a nifty trick to improve your gameplay: ..."
They are speaking about top-level play, where any advice you would give is ALREADY being used. The analysis is about what happens when you do everything right, and you still have a problem.
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EPT
