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Wartortle
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia504 Posts
February 10 2011 13:43 GMT
#161
just listened through again. I cant believe they said that getting fast stim and conc shells doesnt effect your economy. that is just so wrong. you have to get gas and you have to get a tech lab, this delays your scv building, your expansion timing and lowers your total income. im going to have to stop watching this podcast, ive gained nothing useful from it so far.
Sewi
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Germany1697 Posts
February 10 2011 13:43 GMT
#162
Thanks so much Artosis. I am going to watch this as soon as possible since I liked the 1st episode a lot!
"Well, things were going ok until he lost all his stuff" - Tasteless, 17.02.2016
goiflin
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1218 Posts
February 10 2011 13:45 GMT
#163
On February 10 2011 13:21 Finrod1 wrote:
First of all, big credits for Artosis and Idra really lerning and thinking within your discussion.
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2011 12:15 Holdinga wrote:
Just watched it. really like this topic because PvT seems impossible for me right now. I would have to agree with about almost everything they said on this topic, but I didn't like how in the end they said it's not imbalanced. Because everything they said leads to it being imbalanced. Terran can expand and pressure, while protoss is forced to fast robotics for an observer. If you are not getting a fast observer, you are blindly going something and hoping it works. Stim is way too strong for the beginning. A more cheap unit (the marauder) kills a stalker 1v1 WITHOUT stim. Protoss is forced into going mass sentry in the beginning in order to have some chance in holding the terran attacks. You also have to use forcefields without making any mistakes because a hole in your forcefields leads to the MM ball just getting near you and killing you. The terran is also guaranteed to do some damage and is never all-in when playing like that. I would say that getting fast high templars is impossible to use in order to stop this, so the only remaining unit is the colosus. However vikings are too good vs colosus, and colosus without range are even demolished by a simple focus fire from the marauders. All of this is pretty hard to form into words, you can only experience it by playing of course.



Really described my feelings in this matchup too. If you just compare the protoss t1 and terrant1 units with all their possible upgrades at t1 it's...hell yeah i have halluzination!
Because of pvz you can't buff protoss t1 so just freakin nerv terran t1. I always thought in a logical sense that it's kinda stupid that marines/marauders can't die of stim. Why is that? Or just make them unable to stim if they're on 1hp! Maybe it would be better to nerf stim/grenades with more time/cost/whatever and see what happens in the game because of that.
Like Idra and Artosis pointed out the gas managment ist so damn hard for protoss compared to the stim a-move.



You can't stim on 1HP. Your units cannot stim when they get to 10/20 (marine/marauder respectively) HP.

I don't know if TvP openers are imbalanced, I know that protoss T1 requires alot more management than Terran T1. That's not necessarily imbalanced, but I do find it strange that blizzard wanted protoss to have to pull the proverbial "rabbit" out of the hat whenever they face a terran T1 opening.

Terran doesn't exactly 1a2a3a, but it's nowhere near the requirements for placing perfect forcefields, making sure zeals are going to get hits off, while keeping your stalkers from getting burned down by marauders, while warping in units.
KoKoRo
Profile Joined April 2010
United States186 Posts
February 10 2011 13:45 GMT
#164
I find Terran has a hard time being the aggressor and defender. If I go Marauder 1 rax slow pressure into expand, he can just stop it completely and then crush it. If I go 2 rax expand I need to make a bunch of bunkers because I wont have gas units for awhile, and MMM is so terrible in the late game(Colossi and HTs dominate) that Mech is the only viable comp unless I can force the game to be in Mid game all game. The only way to accomplish this is to keep the Protoss on 2 bases while I'm on 2 bases without letting up pressure.

I also don't get the whole idea of air dominance. In TvT I give up air dominance completely. I don't really need my Starport outside of making a Medivac or a Banshee. Sure the other Terran will have more Vikings than I do, but then I have more of a ground army and I don't need to MULE as much because 2 marines is cheaper than 1 viking. I feel all I need to is hold a Xel Naga and/or use Scans accordingly. I carry this philosophy in TvP and TvZ by making Banshees to compliment my army instead of Medivacs or Vikings. If my air units are going to die to Mutalisks or Phoenixes I may as well just make up for it by putting more into my ground army that can deal significant damage with as little cost as possible. I feel the whole Colossus+Phoenix thing can just get punched in the face by using 2 Thors + Vikings and what ever else I have on the ground. I feel people use Marines too much in every match up that they feel that the Marines are the strongest part when they're more of a unit you use to hit air when all else fails. It's evidence in TvZ where a Terran goes Marine Medivac Siege Tank and loses all his Marines. If you don't have air dominance you should just make up for it by having a larger ground army. I think the Thor is an underused Terran AA unit in all match ups. Sure it's not great against everything, but it forces units that Marines, Hellions, or Siege Tanks are great against.

Really I think there isn't any imbalanced openings. Everything just sets the game up for the later stages and if your opponent or you weren't prepared for something it's your fault, not the build or your build's fault. I could claim I can win every TvP by opening Hellion harass and claim it's OP because it works for me(NOTE: I don't actually open Hellion harass in TvP). It wouldn't make it imbalanced, it just shows I know more about handling this build than others. It's like the new TvT opening that's coming to light(2 fact 2 port), it's extremely hard to execute but extremely effective if done right. Does that make it imba? I don't think so. I just think most people are used to dealing with 'the norm' that they think anything that beats their build repeatedly is imba. TvT is my best match up and I always open the same build no matter what my opponent is going. Does this put me at a disadvantage if my opponent plays me and knows the build I'm going and exactly how to defend/counter it? Maybe. But I do this build so much that I know how to counter what they may or may not be doing.

If this discussion was only to be about TvP openings then I probably contributed a lot of garbage to this thread.
When you ain't got nothin', you got nothin' to lose.
CurLy[]
Profile Joined August 2010
United States759 Posts
February 10 2011 13:51 GMT
#165
Terran need to start using ghosts vs phoenix play. For srs. Phoenix clump like a mofo and 1 flanked emp will almost always catch them.

And yeah early T pressure is very very difficult to stop but i wouldn't say imbalanced, hut its kinda silly when I have to pull probes to stop just a few marauders cuz of shells kiting.
Great pasta mom, very Korean. Even my crown leans to the side. Gangsta. --------->
Wartortle
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia504 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-10 13:57:10
February 10 2011 13:56 GMT
#166
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 10 2011 22:45 KoKoRo wrote:
I find Terran has a hard time being the aggressor and defender. If I go Marauder 1 rax slow pressure into expand, he can just stop it completely and then crush it. If I go 2 rax expand I need to make a bunch of bunkers because I wont have gas units for awhile, and MMM is so terrible in the late game(Colossi and HTs dominate) that Mech is the only viable comp unless I can force the game to be in Mid game all game. The only way to accomplish this is to keep the Protoss on 2 bases while I'm on 2 bases without letting up pressure.

I also don't get the whole idea of air dominance. In TvT I give up air dominance completely. I don't really need my Starport outside of making a Medivac or a Banshee. Sure the other Terran will have more Vikings than I do, but then I have more of a ground army and I don't need to MULE as much because 2 marines is cheaper than 1 viking. I feel all I need to is hold a Xel Naga and/or use Scans accordingly. I carry this philosophy in TvP and TvZ by making Banshees to compliment my army instead of Medivacs or Vikings. If my air units are going to die to Mutalisks or Phoenixes I may as well just make up for it by putting more into my ground army that can deal significant damage with as little cost as possible. I feel the whole Colossus+Phoenix thing can just get punched in the face by using 2 Thors + Vikings and what ever else I have on the ground. I feel people use Marines too much in every match up that they feel that the Marines are the strongest part when they're more of a unit you use to hit air when all else fails. It's evidence in TvZ where a Terran goes Marine Medivac Siege Tank and loses all his Marines. If you don't have air dominance you should just make up for it by having a larger ground army. I think the Thor is an underused Terran AA unit in all match ups. Sure it's not great against everything, but it forces units that Marines, Hellions, or Siege Tanks are great against.

Really I think there isn't any imbalanced openings. Everything just sets the game up for the later stages and if your opponent or you weren't prepared for something it's your fault, not the build or your build's fault. I could claim I can win every TvP by opening Hellion harass and claim it's OP because it works for me(NOTE: I don't actually open Hellion harass in TvP). It wouldn't make it imbalanced, it just shows I know more about handling this build than others. It's like the new TvT opening that's coming to light(2 fact 2 port), it's extremely hard to execute but extremely effective if done right. Does that make it imba? I don't think so. I just think most people are used to dealing with 'the norm' that they think anything that beats their build repeatedly is imba. TvT is my best match up and I always open the same build no matter what my opponent is going. Does this put me at a disadvantage if my opponent plays me and knows the build I'm going and exactly how to defend/counter it? Maybe. But I do this build so much that I know how to counter what they may or may not be doing.

If this discussion was only to be about TvP openings then I probably contributed a lot of garbage to this thread.


I agree with a little of what you said, but just to clarify, in TvT if you dont attempt to take the air at all, your opponent *should* make the minimum amount of vikings required to take the air, and then roll your tanks with banshees and battlecrusiers while his smaller amount of tanks take out your marines. If your playing bio in tvt, then a decent player should by now be able to finish you with mech on most maps. also with no air units you would be crushed by any sort of tank/viking early push, or any sort of hellion/banshee play.

edit - In hindsight this is kindve offtopic, sorry


mavyric
Profile Joined November 2010
Taiwan104 Posts
February 10 2011 13:58 GMT
#167
I have to say that I like this episode's discussion and conclusion way more than the introduction episode.....it just overall seemed more well thought out and reasonable, although I guess a large part of it is because it is so specific (just for the early minutes of a matchup)

Yes, early MM pressure is hard to stop, but it CAN be stopped. I just find it kind of funny how just by balancing sentries one player can go from annihilation to killing the other player.

Vive Hodie
branflakes14
Profile Joined July 2010
2082 Posts
February 10 2011 14:13 GMT
#168
Once again seemingly objective discussion, nice job and thanks for the content. I would've liked to hear something about Hallucination though. Tricking a Terran into retreating from your ramp by showing a bigger army might not only discourage his attack but force him to make Bunkers early game. That is unless he just scans and laughs at you.
aka_star
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United Kingdom1546 Posts
February 10 2011 14:14 GMT
#169
I don't think they should go into TvP since they are more zerg players, should only be from a Z perspective
FlashDave.999 aka Star
clickrush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Switzerland3257 Posts
February 10 2011 14:21 GMT
#170
thx Artosis and IdrA for the great discussion. You have pointed out alot of interesting things.
My point of view for the TvP matchup remains the same (assuming bio):

On small Maps its earlygame T favored and lategame P favored. Early game the T can abuse the short rush distance to do these easy stim attacks. Lategame P basicly does the same thing but with his slow AoE units (+ air).

On big maps however P has enough time to respond to early stim pressure so its even. Later in the game it is much harder for P do be aggressive with his slower and less mobile units on the bigger maps. It is much more efficient for T to invest in mobility, so he can attack and drop all over the place and stall out big attacks and punish undefended expansions.
oGsMC: Zealot defense, Stalker attack, Sentry forcefieldu forcefieldu, Marauder die die
DyEnasTy
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3714 Posts
February 10 2011 14:21 GMT
#171
On February 10 2011 23:14 aka_star wrote:
I don't think they should go into TvP since they are more zerg players, should only be from a Z perspective



No I like keeping it balanced

Anyway, I listened to about 25 minutes but Im gonna finish the rest at work. So far I really liked it.


Much better to die an awesome Terran than to live as a magic wielding fairy or a mindless sac of biological goop. -Manifesto7
Sqq
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway2023 Posts
February 10 2011 14:24 GMT
#172
Dead girls don't say no.
Tschis
Profile Joined November 2010
Brazil1511 Posts
February 10 2011 14:25 GMT
#173
Would it be a good idea if Stim efficiency depended on the amount of health the unit has?

//tx
"A coward is not someone that runs from a battle knowing he will lose. A coward is someone who challenges a weak knowing he will win."
DragoonPK
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
3259 Posts
February 10 2011 14:28 GMT
#174
On February 10 2011 23:24 Sqq wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlc0S8LLtsg

Poor Idra, . But anyways, I loved this show, it was way more well done that the first one ^^. Gl on further productions :D Looking forward to EPS3 ^^
Dakkas
Profile Joined October 2010
2550 Posts
February 10 2011 14:34 GMT
#175
You need to make an Imbalanced on your cat
DestroManiak
Profile Joined December 2010
257 Posts
February 10 2011 14:41 GMT
#176
how about IMBALANCED - PvT Closings
:D
Kennigit *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada19447 Posts
February 10 2011 14:42 GMT
#177
Artosis, use this thread for all episodes, thx
ArtnoC
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2 Posts
February 10 2011 14:51 GMT
#178
Both Idra and Artosis look baked....
Great analysis on T and P mechanics, thanks for the video.
JinROOOOOOOOOOOO
zakk
Profile Joined June 2006
Poland21 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-10 14:52:38
February 10 2011 14:51 GMT
#179
I like how they say burrow and ling speed takes soooo long to research (100 and 110 seconds respectively) while stimpack is relatively fast (140 seconds). :D
LoCaD
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1634 Posts
February 10 2011 14:52 GMT
#180
pretty good it had to be adressed like the Show keep it up.
I give up, I just don't know what to write here.
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