EPTImbalanced - Show - Page 9
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Wartortle
Australia504 Posts
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Sewi
Germany1697 Posts
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goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
On February 10 2011 13:21 Finrod1 wrote: First of all, big credits for Artosis and Idra really lerning and thinking within your discussion. Really described my feelings in this matchup too. If you just compare the protoss t1 and terrant1 units with all their possible upgrades at t1 it's...hell yeah i have halluzination! Because of pvz you can't buff protoss t1 so just freakin nerv terran t1. I always thought in a logical sense that it's kinda stupid that marines/marauders can't die of stim. Why is that? Or just make them unable to stim if they're on 1hp! Maybe it would be better to nerf stim/grenades with more time/cost/whatever and see what happens in the game because of that. Like Idra and Artosis pointed out the gas managment ist so damn hard for protoss compared to the stim a-move. You can't stim on 1HP. Your units cannot stim when they get to 10/20 (marine/marauder respectively) HP. I don't know if TvP openers are imbalanced, I know that protoss T1 requires alot more management than Terran T1. That's not necessarily imbalanced, but I do find it strange that blizzard wanted protoss to have to pull the proverbial "rabbit" out of the hat whenever they face a terran T1 opening. Terran doesn't exactly 1a2a3a, but it's nowhere near the requirements for placing perfect forcefields, making sure zeals are going to get hits off, while keeping your stalkers from getting burned down by marauders, while warping in units. | ||
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KoKoRo
United States186 Posts
I also don't get the whole idea of air dominance. In TvT I give up air dominance completely. I don't really need my Starport outside of making a Medivac or a Banshee. Sure the other Terran will have more Vikings than I do, but then I have more of a ground army and I don't need to MULE as much because 2 marines is cheaper than 1 viking. I feel all I need to is hold a Xel Naga and/or use Scans accordingly. I carry this philosophy in TvP and TvZ by making Banshees to compliment my army instead of Medivacs or Vikings. If my air units are going to die to Mutalisks or Phoenixes I may as well just make up for it by putting more into my ground army that can deal significant damage with as little cost as possible. I feel the whole Colossus+Phoenix thing can just get punched in the face by using 2 Thors + Vikings and what ever else I have on the ground. I feel people use Marines too much in every match up that they feel that the Marines are the strongest part when they're more of a unit you use to hit air when all else fails. It's evidence in TvZ where a Terran goes Marine Medivac Siege Tank and loses all his Marines. If you don't have air dominance you should just make up for it by having a larger ground army. I think the Thor is an underused Terran AA unit in all match ups. Sure it's not great against everything, but it forces units that Marines, Hellions, or Siege Tanks are great against. Really I think there isn't any imbalanced openings. Everything just sets the game up for the later stages and if your opponent or you weren't prepared for something it's your fault, not the build or your build's fault. I could claim I can win every TvP by opening Hellion harass and claim it's OP because it works for me(NOTE: I don't actually open Hellion harass in TvP). It wouldn't make it imbalanced, it just shows I know more about handling this build than others. It's like the new TvT opening that's coming to light(2 fact 2 port), it's extremely hard to execute but extremely effective if done right. Does that make it imba? I don't think so. I just think most people are used to dealing with 'the norm' that they think anything that beats their build repeatedly is imba. TvT is my best match up and I always open the same build no matter what my opponent is going. Does this put me at a disadvantage if my opponent plays me and knows the build I'm going and exactly how to defend/counter it? Maybe. But I do this build so much that I know how to counter what they may or may not be doing. If this discussion was only to be about TvP openings then I probably contributed a lot of garbage to this thread. | ||
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CurLy[]
United States759 Posts
And yeah early T pressure is very very difficult to stop but i wouldn't say imbalanced, hut its kinda silly when I have to pull probes to stop just a few marauders cuz of shells kiting. | ||
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Wartortle
Australia504 Posts
On February 10 2011 22:45 KoKoRo wrote: I find Terran has a hard time being the aggressor and defender. If I go Marauder 1 rax slow pressure into expand, he can just stop it completely and then crush it. If I go 2 rax expand I need to make a bunch of bunkers because I wont have gas units for awhile, and MMM is so terrible in the late game(Colossi and HTs dominate) that Mech is the only viable comp unless I can force the game to be in Mid game all game. The only way to accomplish this is to keep the Protoss on 2 bases while I'm on 2 bases without letting up pressure. I also don't get the whole idea of air dominance. In TvT I give up air dominance completely. I don't really need my Starport outside of making a Medivac or a Banshee. Sure the other Terran will have more Vikings than I do, but then I have more of a ground army and I don't need to MULE as much because 2 marines is cheaper than 1 viking. I feel all I need to is hold a Xel Naga and/or use Scans accordingly. I carry this philosophy in TvP and TvZ by making Banshees to compliment my army instead of Medivacs or Vikings. If my air units are going to die to Mutalisks or Phoenixes I may as well just make up for it by putting more into my ground army that can deal significant damage with as little cost as possible. I feel the whole Colossus+Phoenix thing can just get punched in the face by using 2 Thors + Vikings and what ever else I have on the ground. I feel people use Marines too much in every match up that they feel that the Marines are the strongest part when they're more of a unit you use to hit air when all else fails. It's evidence in TvZ where a Terran goes Marine Medivac Siege Tank and loses all his Marines. If you don't have air dominance you should just make up for it by having a larger ground army. I think the Thor is an underused Terran AA unit in all match ups. Sure it's not great against everything, but it forces units that Marines, Hellions, or Siege Tanks are great against. Really I think there isn't any imbalanced openings. Everything just sets the game up for the later stages and if your opponent or you weren't prepared for something it's your fault, not the build or your build's fault. I could claim I can win every TvP by opening Hellion harass and claim it's OP because it works for me(NOTE: I don't actually open Hellion harass in TvP). It wouldn't make it imbalanced, it just shows I know more about handling this build than others. It's like the new TvT opening that's coming to light(2 fact 2 port), it's extremely hard to execute but extremely effective if done right. Does that make it imba? I don't think so. I just think most people are used to dealing with 'the norm' that they think anything that beats their build repeatedly is imba. TvT is my best match up and I always open the same build no matter what my opponent is going. Does this put me at a disadvantage if my opponent plays me and knows the build I'm going and exactly how to defend/counter it? Maybe. But I do this build so much that I know how to counter what they may or may not be doing. If this discussion was only to be about TvP openings then I probably contributed a lot of garbage to this thread. I agree with a little of what you said, but just to clarify, in TvT if you dont attempt to take the air at all, your opponent *should* make the minimum amount of vikings required to take the air, and then roll your tanks with banshees and battlecrusiers while his smaller amount of tanks take out your marines. If your playing bio in tvt, then a decent player should by now be able to finish you with mech on most maps. also with no air units you would be crushed by any sort of tank/viking early push, or any sort of hellion/banshee play. edit - In hindsight this is kindve offtopic, sorry | ||
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mavyric
Taiwan104 Posts
Yes, early MM pressure is hard to stop, but it CAN be stopped. I just find it kind of funny how just by balancing sentries one player can go from annihilation to killing the other player. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
My point of view for the TvP matchup remains the same (assuming bio): On small Maps its earlygame T favored and lategame P favored. Early game the T can abuse the short rush distance to do these easy stim attacks. Lategame P basicly does the same thing but with his slow AoE units (+ air). On big maps however P has enough time to respond to early stim pressure so its even. Later in the game it is much harder for P do be aggressive with his slower and less mobile units on the bigger maps. It is much more efficient for T to invest in mobility, so he can attack and drop all over the place and stall out big attacks and punish undefended expansions. | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
On February 10 2011 23:14 aka_star wrote: I don't think they should go into TvP since they are more zerg players, should only be from a Z perspective No I like keeping it balanced  Anyway, I listened to about 25 minutes but Im gonna finish the rest at work. So far I really liked it. | ||
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Sqq
Norway2023 Posts
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Tschis
Brazil1511 Posts
//tx | ||
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DragoonPK
3259 Posts
On February 10 2011 23:24 Sqq wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlc0S8LLtsg Poor Idra,  . But anyways, I loved this show, it was way more well done that the first one ^^. Gl on further productions :D Looking forward to EPS3 ^^ | ||
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
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DestroManiak
257 Posts
:D | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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ArtnoC
United States2 Posts
Great analysis on T and P mechanics, thanks for the video. | ||
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zakk
Poland21 Posts
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LoCaD
Germany1634 Posts
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