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Armsved
Denmark642 Posts
On February 11 2011 00:31 shell wrote: warp gates cost money also Armsved And protoss has 1 set of upgrades for robo and gateway while terran needs to upgrade both mech and bio. Isnt it fun to call imbalance on racial difference... | ||
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Spitfire
South Africa442 Posts
As a budding Terran player what I'm interested in is whether the StarCraft 1 approach can work for Terran in StarCraft 2. Obviously there've been a lot of threads on it and people claim mech isnt as good in SC 2, but then we saw Jinro beat the best Protoss in the world using it... | ||
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Severedevil
United States4835 Posts
On February 11 2011 00:33 SC2Real wrote: barracks with techlab equals gateway + core.. what takes longer to build? >_> Barracks + Techlab actually equals Gateway + Core + Twilight Council. It's pretty hilarious. On the flip side, regenerative shields are sick-good in the very early game, and Warpgates are awesome once you get them out. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
It seems like in their mind toss just stays on 1 base until they get colossus just so they can get an expo. It also seemed like they think on metalopolis or xel naga toss, HAS to get 5+ sentries because of how wide the naturals are and still somehow have gas to tech. Terrans who 1 or 2 rax fe will be taking their 3rd by the time your natural is up and have the income to overproduce vikings and smash colossus. I'd also like to point out, if I see a tech lab starport I don't know if that means banshee or raven. Terrans have become very consistent in spotting obs and sniping them with scans. Or how about the fact that a 50 mineral marine with stim has higher dps vs anything, than a 175 resource stalker does (even when vs armored units where the stalker gets its bonus) There is still a lot to discuss in this matchup IMO. But the episode was much better than the first and I was pleased. I just feel a lot of subjects/issues that I've experienced in this matchup were missing from the discussion. Also, I'd like to hear their thoughts on how hard it is to deal with banshee/hellion/marine drops that target your economy after you take your natural. But damn all that noise was kinda distracting to Idra, artosis and me as the listener. This subject is worthy of another episode, so much left to talk about. | ||
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Avaloch
241 Posts
On February 10 2011 23:14 aka_star wrote: I don't think they should go into TvP since they are more zerg players, should only be from a Z perspective Have you even watched the video yet? I don't see why Zerg players cannot comment based on what they have observed in games played by their peers. Anyone who is amply observant would be able to analyse games and give a unbiased commentary. | ||
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Erandorr
2283 Posts
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Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo
Germany2959 Posts
I kinda got the feeling you're afraid of talking about imbalances including Zergs because the community will give you so much shit for that (as in "lolol zergs complaining about other races haha!!"). Anyways, as I said great show, keep it going. | ||
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simme123
Sweden810 Posts
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Striding Strider
United Kingdom787 Posts
(And don't be so mean to Greg)  | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On February 11 2011 00:50 Severedevil wrote: Huh? Gateway+Core+ TC is 165 seconds. Barracks+techlab takes 85 seconds. Not to mention you generally don't immediately build a twilight council as soon as the CC is done because you need gas for warpgates and the rest of your income for units so you don't die. Gateway+Core is 115 seconds. All times are from liquipedia and Protoss building times were confirmed from the game.Barracks + Techlab actually equals Gateway + Core + Twilight Council. It's pretty hilarious. On the flip side, regenerative shields are sick-good in the very early game, and Warpgates are awesome once you get them out. Also, People aren't taking into effect warpgate research which costs 50/50 and takes 140 seconds to complete. Please keep that in mind when comparing times. Without it, protoss has to build units the same way a Terran player does. | ||
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Deleted User 108965
1096 Posts
On February 11 2011 01:13 Ben... wrote: Huh? Gateway+Core+ TC is 165 seconds. Barracks+techlab takes 85 seconds. Not to mention you generally don't immediately build a twilight council as soon as the CC is done because you need gas for warpgates and the rest of your income for units so you don't die. Gateway+Core is 115 seconds. All times are from liquipedia and Protoss building times were confirmed from the game. Also, People aren't taking into effect warpgate research which costs 50/50 and takes 140 seconds to complete. Please keep that in mind when comparing times. Without it, protoss has to build units the same way a Terran player does. i think he meant that gate + core + tc is the same techwise as a barracks + techlab. not build times | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
The name of the show is very creative. They are kind of asking for it. + Show Spoiler + | ||
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
On February 11 2011 00:43 Spitfire wrote: I agree completely with what Artosis said regarding the role-reversal in TvP. In StarCraft 1 Terran started off on the back foot and had to tech up as the Protoss tier 1 units were very strong, but if Terran survived then he could build up an extremely powerful late-game army of tanks, Goliaths and Science Vessels which was difficult for Protoss to deal with. This is the opposite of StarCraft 2, where M&M controls the early game, but eventually gets owned by Colossi-Templar. As a budding Terran player what I'm interested in is whether the StarCraft 1 approach can work for Terran in StarCraft 2. Obviously there've been a lot of threads on it and people claim mech isnt as good in SC 2, but then we saw Jinro beat the best Protoss in the world using it... No, Starcraft 2 mech is substantially worse than Starcraft 1 mech. Here's why: Mech sacrifices mobility for stability. However, all races have received an upgrade in damage against Terran mech, including Terran infantry, and Terran mech itself has lost its firepower AND its most critical unit: the vulture. That's why there is little reason not to go mainly infantry with mech support: because pure mech is simply not mobile enough to keep up with other compositions, and it is not robust enough to compensate for lack of mobility. Positional play in general is undermined in Starcraft 2, which is why you can't see macro games where armies are spread across the map and engaging at multiple fronts. Armies cannot spread out over a distance because the opponent's army can attack you at a concentrated point with all of their units at the same time thanks to the clumping. It used to be that the more mobile the unit, the more fragile it was. Protoss was unique in that its army was robust and mobile, and was simply limited by cost and build time. Not true in Starcraft 2. Every single race now resembles Brood War Protoss in terms of the mobility/robustness ratio, without the build time penalties. Dragoon/Zealot bears a strong resemblance to Hydra/Roach, Marauder/Marine, and Zealot/Stalker. Strangely enough, it is Starcraft 2 Protoss that bears the least resemblance to Brood War Protoss with the introduction of Warpgates and Sentries. | ||
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oni_link
Germany165 Posts
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
On February 11 2011 01:27 oni_link wrote: hydra is not mobile by any means except nydus By mobile I mean "not effectively stationary". If SC2 Hydras were as slow as Reavers, then they would not be considered mobile. | ||
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Endorsed
Netherlands1221 Posts
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dunc
Netherlands1105 Posts
On February 10 2011 10:50 xza wrote: artosis needs to do 'is 4gate imbalanced?' that would be amazing since idrA is zerg, and artosis is 1/2 zerg and 1/2 toss Artosis is 2/2 Zerg. Anyway, I actually managed to get through the first 10 minutes of this show so well done I suppose. You made some very valid points. Looking forward to next week's episode. | ||
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KoKoRo
United States186 Posts
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Vega62a
946 Posts
I didn't like your suggestion that you move contaminate back to corruptors. That would break at the very least PvZ and ZvZ; with contaminate on overseers, you have to sink money into a weak, non-combat unit to stop production. With contaminate on corruptors, you can sink money into several corruptors and not only be safe from colossi and air, but with 8 corruptors you can literally stop all combat unit production from a 2basing protoss. You would have to make the cooldown / corruption time on that INCREDIBLY weak for it not to utterly break the matchup, or have it be a slowly researched tech so that a protoss would have time to react to seeing the spire. Probably both. It would be even worse in ZvZ - you could invest in just a few corruptors and they could not only hunt overlords, but corrupt the hatches constantly, stopping ALL zerg production entirely; queens and spore crawlers simply do not kill them fast enough to stop this. I do agree with you that the fact that a terran can use an eco build - 1 or 2 rax aggression into quick-ish expo - to pressure a protoss into a very defensive build or punish / outright kill another eco build is kind of imbalanced. I think putting the concussive shells on the same tech path as nitro packs would fix this pretty easily - terran need concussive shells in the lategame to be competitive, but it really does break early game eco builds. | ||
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NeWnAr
Singapore231 Posts
This is in response to IdrA saying that many strategies in many match-ups such as PvZ are underused due to certain units being way more useful than others(colossus). What I would like to do is to brainstorm and collate ideas which depict types of play or aspects of the game almost never looked upon and underused greatly. I don't want long build queue style responses, instead, short and sweet direct statements reminding people "hey, you missed this part of SC2". I'll start with a few to start. Zerg: 1) Mass contaminate unit denial 2) Using mass queens purely for creep spread and do early game creep pushes into enemy bases n small maps. No inject larva. 3) Burrow mind games? Lure enemy using pure hydra, then burrow the hydras at the same spot where you burrowed banelings. Boom. 4) Using Changelings to block? Terran: 1) Using flying buildings to block opponent view of his own units to impede enemy micro? 2) Using flying CCs to lure and tank dmg while flanking the enemy with main army and repairing Protoss: 1) Early stormless HTs for Queen feedback, deny Zerg macro 2) Mass FF to counter drops? You cannot drop units on an FF. | ||
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