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On February 11 2011 01:35 Endorsed wrote:
Early bio pressure SUCKKKKKKSSS. This is so old, any toss can absolutely crush it and win. That's basically what artosis says. Scout it and crush it. Early bio pressure relies on the protoss screwing up in his defence. Then we get to the midgame. Where the smart protoss won't atack, but chill behind his chokes wich the terran can't atack into because of forcefields. Late game. Terran is dead.
A crude description of the matchup, but sums up my experience pretty well too. I suppose one thing is top level play, and another thing is how the matchup plays out in diamond and master games.
Personally I'm about 70% win against zerg and 30% win against protoss. This is very frustrating. It could easily be something only applying to my game, but based on a lot of posts I read, I feel many terrans have a similar experience.
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I was a little suspicious at the start, but I fully agree with your arguments and conclusion. Keep it up!
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I think it is very funny that this episode heavily focuses so much on Marine/Maurader strong openings when they tend to forget that most Terrans do not go for a strong MM opening to kill anymore, more to just gain map control and force certain predictable reactions.
Also Artosis states that you can scout any build with an observer build, which is simply not true. There are at least 4/5 different builds from a Terran player that require a very specific reaction from the Protoss player that come before an observer hits the field (even if you do the fastest Gateway/Robo/Gateway), and even if you can manage to either guess or see the build, you have to be able to defend against that build in the first place (which you likely won't have that many units because you expended so much in your tech early). This was mentioned, but I think that there wasn't a particular emphasis on how hard it is to hold when you are lacking on gas for Sentries to stall, when you expended so much to get that fast Robo out.
What Artosis did say about Sentries is true, but that even applies when you have Colossus. The Colossus is a great unit when you have Sentry energy, however that advantage is nullified significantly once your Sentries run out of energy, because even just a slight miscalculation of Colossus positioning means Mauraders will eat them up with one volley. With Sentries you can recorrect any mistake and simply FF and keep Mauraders away, but without that energy it means that any good flanking play or simple Maurader suicides can easily pick off your Colossus.
I think that Artosis was also a little bit dishonest (not intentionally of course) with how MC plays against T. The way MC plays against T was specifically tailored to punish T players for doing any kind of pressure expand builds into a mass Bio stim push, which at the time was incredibly hard (and still is very hard) to stop.
It's not that MC builds are now the new thing that beats Bio; a dedicated Bio army will still roll MC's Gateway army when we talk about equal size. It is just that MC hits at a critical timing window when most T's have just expanded and do not have a sizable force defending, and thus rely on bunkers (which are countered by sentries) to defend with most of the time. This means that the P has a unit number advantage against a smaller Terran force relying on bunkers to stave off any aggressive play.
However, I think that most people don't realize that once T players started adapting to this type of play (as in stopped playing so greedy), it didn't work as well anymore. So now we're back at step 1 where T players are holding a significant edge early to mid game with their massive Bio blob, that when controlled well, can even take on late game P units (with the right support).
I also wanted to mention that your analysis of Colossus is really, really, really biased, because the problem is NOT the Colossus, but how ridiculously cost effective the Sentry is against Zerg players. With enough Sentries on the field, they basically turn any fight in the early to mid game a free win for the P player as long as the P player has an army to support the Sentries. I don't think anyone is really complaining too much about Colossus without Sentries, I think the problem is that the walking deathball of Colossus with Sentry mid game means the Z literally cannot engage period no matter what since he'll just get walled off and die.
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Well TvP openings may be a bit too much to handle for toss, the PvT endgame could also be too hot for terran. Terran is hard-pressed to find a effective unit composition against the endgame protoss composition of gateway units+some colossus+some void ray. Tank may be good but that's gambling on protoss does not have immortals. I guess we haven't seen enough late game TvP yet so we'd have to see how it play out.
Anyway cat is CLEARLY imbalanced, nerf asap plz
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Gonna watch when I get home! I love watching high level players talk about this kinds of stuff
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That made my week oh wow hahaha.
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Although I enjoy the show quite a bit, I believe some additional production value could be added to increase its quality 10 fold.
They need a solid terran or protoss players perspective when doing a show that isn't zerg centered.
They aren't biased, they simply didnt hit some of the fine details of the TvP MU that I expected. It seemed more generic compared to the first episode.
The show would greatly benefit from some replay commentary, and having a few guests skype in for terran and protoss discussions. I know Artosis has apparently been playing some Protoss, but I believe having an incontrol or a huk comments on possible TvP imbalances would be a lot more interesting. Just seemed the first episode was much more in depth due to it being zerg focused.
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On February 11 2011 03:01 Shalaiyn wrote:That made my week oh wow hahaha.
L M F A O hahahaahhahaha thats the funniest video i've ever seen. I feel bad for the guy
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Liked the show...but there were some moments that made me cringe as a protoss player...
Artosis is a huge fan of fast observer... The problem with this is that this takes 4 gate timing attacks out of your arsenal which is one of our best weapons. It also means your probably not going to produce stargates under 10 minutes which is another option off the table. Lot of top level Korean toss players don't go for fast observers.
Artosis was also a huge fan of forcefields, but these can be a little overrated vs terrain. As soon as terrain has a medivac/scan (or other spotter) your ability to defend chokes decreases dramatically because the range of MM can largely fire through FF's unless impeccably placed.
The idea that DT's can counter 3 racks made me cringe too... As Idra pointed it out it is too all-in in the early game as an investment and if scouted you are dead.
Would like to see more emphasis on how difficult it is for toss to defend against banshee's, the problems with mules, and the dominance of vikings.
Largely though, they need to revisit MM issue as it wasn't completely covered. Why are racks units more effective vs armored than thors/tanks? Why are terrain players sac'ing factorys away as scouts? Why should rauders only cost 25g and be able to kite almost everything in site and destroy buildings in almost no time? Can Toss survive vs Terrain without AOE in the mid/late game? They can't which raises other issues.
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On February 10 2011 14:05 Moki.tv wrote:
(3.2k Masters)
I think the show would really benefit from a Terran perspective. While artosis and Idra do try to give terran a fair point of view, there are some things that they get wrong.
1. Phoenix/Colossus
-the reason this is really hard to deal with is because colossus have insane range, and stalkers destroy vikings. So that really rules out any flanking by vikings. What Idra said about keeping marines w/ vikings is also not possible, b/c the time it takes for vikings/marines to kill the phoenix, the colossus have had ample time to destroy the bio.
2. Bio Openings
early bio pressure isn't as strong as they make it out to be, esp. on maps like xel'naga or maps with ramps, toss forcefield destroy these bio pushes. 1gate FE can solidly hold off most bio pushes, and definitely holds off 2rax FE. I use 2rax FE often, and my goal is just to trade down armies here.
Just my 2 cents
2.9k master here and I just wanted to highlight this post because it sums up my experience in the matchup really well. Especially his 2nd point. His 1st point not so much have not really had any experience against it. You might say im bad (2.9 masters lulz u suck) but im confident I can pull off a 2 rax or 3 rax pressure build fairly well.
And I just got to say I dont get ANY of the whine about terran early game strenghts. You can actually 1 gate FE _SAFELY_ on any map larger than steppes of war and get away with it vs a 2rax pressure opening. But and this is very important you need to _micro_ your gateway units and use the _correct_ unit compisition, you might even need to bring in a few probes if things go bad or if he is bringing scvs with it. Probes are reaaallyy annoying when you have a small marine/marauder ball and p have stalkers in the back taking out all the marines so you do shitty dmg. Even if you loose a few probes it doesnt matter because then you took out all of his units and you have a larger army.
However this is not the case if your facing 3rax but if you are - simply cancel the nexus (cuz it will hit before its done or you should know it coming) and just go up your ramp. And boy do terrans hate going up the ramp... vs a good toss you never win a fight going up a ramp because of forcefields. From here you can go what the hell you want to ( 4gate, dt tech as artosis said, rush collu or whatever random 1 base allin or go 3gate and expand) and ROFLSTOMP the terran later
on.
And now I have basically given up on these kinds of builds because most protoss I play against have figured them out.
The new build I find to be very good instead is going 1 rax 1 fact into expand and try to do some pressure, not to much!, with hellions and marauders then go into something like 3 fact tank hellion kind of play. Something like how IMMvP played during todays GSLTL game but i think his transition to mech came late and he could've focused more on mech upgrades and running around with hellions picking probes off instead of medivac drops that really didnt do to much. I have just started doing it and honestly im terribad because its different from rax play but I think its the new way of playing terran that we will see more and more.
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Youtube version of IdrA high five video. With Imogen Heep lyrics
Poor IdrA
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On February 10 2011 11:15 bubblegumbo wrote:
That kitten is imbalanced.
all that needs to be said lol
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On February 11 2011 04:06 Gaius Baltar wrote:Youtube version of IdrA high five video. With Imogen Heep lyrics Poor IdrA
Definitely 9/10, -1 for not using original Imogen Heap.
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On February 11 2011 03:01 Shalaiyn wrote:That made my week oh wow hahaha.
Lol! What is this...I have no words. Hilarious, though.
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On February 11 2011 04:01 Killcani wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 14:05 Moki.tv wrote:
(3.2k Masters)
I think the show would really benefit from a Terran perspective. While artosis and Idra do try to give terran a fair point of view, there are some things that they get wrong.
1. Phoenix/Colossus
-the reason this is really hard to deal with is because colossus have insane range, and stalkers destroy vikings. So that really rules out any flanking by vikings. What Idra said about keeping marines w/ vikings is also not possible, b/c the time it takes for vikings/marines to kill the phoenix, the colossus have had ample time to destroy the bio.
2. Bio Openings
early bio pressure isn't as strong as they make it out to be, esp. on maps like xel'naga or maps with ramps, toss forcefield destroy these bio pushes. 1gate FE can solidly hold off most bio pushes, and definitely holds off 2rax FE. I use 2rax FE often, and my goal is just to trade down armies here.
Just my 2 cents
2.9k master here and I just wanted to highlight this quote because it sums up my experience in the matchup really well. Especially his 2nd point. His 1st point not so much have not really had any experience against it. You might say im bad (2.9 masters lulz u suck) but im confident I can pull off a 2 rax or 3 rax pressure build fairly well. And I just got to say I dont get ANY of the whine about terran early game strenghts. You can actually 1 gate FE _SAFELY_ on any map larger than steppes of war and get away with it vs a 2rax pressure opening. But and this is very important you need to _micro_ your gateway units and use the _correct_ unit compisition, you might even need to bring in a few probes if things go bad or if he is bringing scvs with it. Probes are reaaallyy annoying when you have a small marine/marauder ball and p have stalkers in the back taking out all the marines so you do shitty dmg. Even if you loose a few probes it doesnt matter because then you took out all of his units and you have a larger army. However this is not the case if your facing 3rax but if you are - simply cancel the nexus (cuz it will hit before its done or you should know it coming) and just go up your ramp. And boy do terrans hate going up the ramp... vs a good toss you never win a fight going up a ramp because of forcefields. From here you can go what the hell you want to ( 4gate, dt tech as artosis said, rush collu or whatever random 1 base allin or go 3gate and expand) and ROFLSTOMP the terran later on. And now I have basically given up on these kinds of builds because most protoss I play against have figured them out. The new build I find to be very good instead is going 1 rax 1 fact into expand and try to do some pressure, not to much!, with hellions and marauders then go into something like 3 fact tank hellion kind of play. Something like how IMMvP played during todays GSLTL game but i think his transition came to mech came late and he could've focused more on mech upgrades and running around with hellions picking probes off instead of medivac drops that really didnt do to much. I have just started doing it and honestly im terribad because its different from rax play but I think its the new way of playing terran that we will see more and more.
you dont know what you are saying...if terran 3 racks and forces you cancel the nexus he can just turtle outside your base, expand safely and contain you forever...plus 3 racks beats 4 gates and since you were doing a fe build your colossus and dts will come way too late to be efective
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On February 11 2011 04:25 siri wrote:
you dont know what you are saying...if terran 3 racks and forces you cancel the nexus he can just turtle outside your base, expand safely and contain you forever...plus 3 racks beats 4 gates and since you were doing a fe build your colossus and dts will come way too late to be efective
Hm I get your point but I have to disagree with it. 4 gates beats 3 racks generally however there a bunch of factors that can change this such as micro/bunkers/stim but when not taking those into consideration and everthing is a straight up fight 4 gates definitely beats 3 racks. I believe this very strongly as many many games of mine has proven and also all the vods I have watched. But I would love to be proven wrong and 3 rax play is actually really strong and not as gimped as I feel it is at the moment.
You said being contained, I would suspect this means he is building bunkers(2-3) below your ramp and doing a nice circle of units. If you see this there are many options you have to get basically a free win. I wouldnt recommend 4 gate in this perticular case. Instead I suggest going for 3 gate robo and note: your tech wont be late because in 1 gate FE you get your gas and cyber at the standard time.
So you have 3 gates 1 robo now while he has 3 raxes that are cutting units to get 2+ bunkers and a command center right? you basically know that since you see he is containing you. Now get a warp prism out and after that chrono immortals out. Use your warp prism do drop 3-4 zealots in his main base. Now he will have to make a decision either he has to back off if he doesnt have any units in his base and if he does this you can simply a move his base and take the win. Or he has units to deal with this and really you have to have like 5+ marines to deal efficiently with 3-4 zealots and in that case you can break out the cointain using the immortal to target the bunkers and ff to stop repairing if necessary.
Now if you have the counter for something like this please enlighten me.
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We should have an imbalance playoff, all the terrans use protoss and all the protoss use terran. So we can truly see which race is easy mode in this matchup  Would be a lot of fun and smack talking I'm sure.
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I would love to see some thors and mech mixed into lategame army mix for terran to combat the ground army of Protoss. Thors should do decent against stacking phoenixes and assist the vikes and rines in dps. This match up is truly interesting and should keep continuing to evolve
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On February 11 2011 04:49 Reborn8u wrote:We should have an imbalance playoff, all the terrans use protoss and all the protoss use terran. So we can truly see which race is easy mode in this matchup Would be a lot of fun and smack talking I'm sure.
Offracing Protoss is pretty easy actually...
I can beat players than I can't beat TvT with Protoss and pretty one sidely too
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EPT
