Imbalanced - Show - Page 14

Regina

Netherlands148 Posts

February 10 2011 23:11 GMT

#261

as a protoss i feel what they are describing

great show. Tip on close are use the whitera warp prison play to avoid early pressure (obs near ramp, move in with prison when he moves out, kill some scvs move out and keep doing that) i even love to delay warpgate research to get a extreme fast robo up

since i dont feel like warp gate research helps alot if it comes 20 sec earlier against terran.

Keep the good stuff up

Consummate

Australia191 Posts

February 10 2011 23:17 GMT

#262

On February 11 2011 08:10 Ratel wrote:

Show nested quote +

Different mechanics =/= easier mechanics
protoss buildings cant fly and a nexus cant turn into a murdering infrastructure that can be mass repaired by the workers, also you cant just scan cloaked units or ur opponents base, also you cant just press a button to get more supply if your blocked
what i am trying to say is the mechanics are different, each race has its own advantages

Apparently you missed the whole macro part of the post since only 1 of your several points are related to my post (the supply depot part).

I wasn't saying there is a problem with it, just stating that Protoss's macro mechanics are the easiest to manage.

Bonham

Canada655 Posts

February 10 2011 23:31 GMT

#263

On February 11 2011 08:06 Consummate wrote:
Since warp gate cool down is universal, its easier managing your army as all your warp gates (if you're warping in at the same time) will be available at the same time, rather than different build times meaning you have to be constantly checking your production facilities to ensure they're building.

Not necessarily. If you chrono any warpgates, don't flip your gates over all at the same time, or build new ones "off cycle" (which happens in most games, I would wager), you'd have asynchronous warpgate cooldowns, with as many a different optimal timings as you have gates.

Also, protoss players don't always exclusively use gateways – stargates and robo facs work more like factories, barracks (barracksii? Barrackopodes?), and starports.

Edit: cleaned up language for greater clarity.

DaBears57

United States300 Posts

February 10 2011 23:39 GMT

#264

On February 11 2011 08:17 Consummate wrote:
Apparently you missed the whole macro part of the post since only 1 of your several points are related to my post (the supply depot part).

I wasn't saying there is a problem with it, just stating that Protoss's macro mechanics are the easiest to manage.

Easiest to manage? Have you ever seen any protoss fully utilizing 3 nexus's worth of chrono and keep it down? No, even the best like MC still slip up. In fact, one of the games he was streaming he had full chrono on 2 nexuses at 12 sc2 minutes in.

JDeathmetal

Netherlands81 Posts

February 10 2011 23:42 GMT

#265

Guys .. guys its not funny anymore.

ok.....

hahaha now it's funny again!!! still rolfcoptering!

I'm wondering who will be the first to email them and ask:
Idra how did you feel when artosis denied you the good old high five?
But maybe his expression on his face tells enough

but on a serious note, people who say you need a terran and a
protoss on the show really don't understand how good these guys are with their understanding of the game, just cause they both main zerg doesn't mean they don't know the other races, I mean common Artosis casts on GOMTV for godsakes, he knows all the builds even before those guys do it. So I think he knows pretty well whats good or bad in the game and what is imbalanced or not, ofc he sees things a bit more from the zerg point of view, but then again he has seen this stuff so many times that by now he knows every viable build thats out there (almost)

so please keep this in mind before ranting on about needing more people on the show, ofc that would be fun but it isnt mandatory.

Also I believe that in most levels below pro (also in masters etc me being a 2800 master) the mechanics and the relative ease of use of the terran army make terran a real strong race, I play terran on a friends account and im not yet very good at it but im starting to learn more and more of the race and I feel the mech path is really really strong (might call it imba) and with the MMM combo the dropping is so ridicelously strong from time to time, hey my opponent has 3 base --> lets drop in all three keep them hotkeyed Stim and snipe nexus or mineral line. GG

I play alot of random so i know the most sorrow of all the races, I hate 4gate toss i hate MMM terran I hate Hydra/Roach timing zerg. Its all part of the game, and most match-ups feel pretty even. Ofc there are maps that do suck (steppes of war terran anyone ?!)

Zocat

Germany2229 Posts

February 11 2011 00:24 GMT

#266

This is wrong.
Different units put the warpgates on different cooldowns.
Warp in a zealot - WG cooldown is 28sec.
Warp in a stalker/sentry - WG cooldown is 32sec.
Warp in HT/DT - WG cooldown is 45sec.

Therefore warpgate will only be available at the same time if you always warp in similiar unit types (which is almost impossible / ill advised).

Fungal Growth

United States434 Posts

February 11 2011 00:26 GMT

#267

On February 11 2011 08:39 DaBears57 wrote:
Easiest to manage? Have you ever seen any protoss fully utilizing 3 nexus's worth of chrono and keep it down? No, even the best like MC still slip up. In fact, one of the games he was streaming he had full chrono on 2 nexuses at 12 sc2 minutes in.

Yeah...people underestimate how difficult it is to keep on top of CB's (or avoid getting 'energy blocked').

This actually indirectly would make a great show idea... What units and races are the most APM friendly and how does this affect balance between races and between units?

Important topic because APM even for the best pro's is scarce. Many protoss get energy blocked...many zerg (including Idra) miss injection cycles... Contrary to popular belief, warpgate micro for toss is a pain because you have to switch screens and lose your current selection which always multiples your actions per minute.

They could then talk about possible solutions... Auto-inject for queens? Hatchery icons (like the warpgate icon) where each hatchery changes a color when it can support more larvae. Auto-cb (where you 'rally' it to a building with a shift option for multiple 'rallies'/auto CB's)...a higher energy cap, so players don't get burned as much for getting energy blocked...maybe the key combo ALT-CB extends your chrono-boost for twice the time but cost twice the energy...perhaps even stackable CB's? To alleviate warp-gate APM (fellow toss know what I'm talking about) it would be nice if buildings could auto-append newly created units to a designated control group (so say my selected stargate automatically adds my new voids/phoenixes to say ctrl-group 3 which saves a TON on APM)...being able to warp units onto the mini-map would be cool too. Should overlords get their own rally option? Should creep tumors have an-auto spawn ability (just shift queue a highway destination and the tumors go into auto-cancer mode)? People forget how big APM is when it comes to discussions on race balance.

I think it would be a cool topic...

Fanciful

United States59 Posts

February 11 2011 00:50 GMT

#268

The format of this show would work better as a pod cast.

If they continue to to use a video format they can do a few things to improve the production value:

less head room

this is an uncomfortable amount of head room

this is an example of better framing

edit down the content

50+ minutes of content is a lot, especially during one continuous shot. I like how they broke the show up into two sections this time. unfortunately their opinions get lost in the overwhelming amount of content. Instead of talking for a hour using only train of thought as a guide why not make shorter videos with specific ideas.

add an extra camera

point one at Artosis and point the other at Idra. with two cameras you have the ability to edit a conversation and improve viewer engagement with shot reverse shot. With an extra camera you don't need someone to babysit the cameras; this show can stay a two man show.

"Artosis, how do you feel about vanilla ice cream?"

"You have no right to ask me about Vanilla ice cream..."

"Sorry to upset you, may we hi five?"

"kay"

On February 11 2011 10:48 wonderwall wrote:
Perhaps it might be a better idea to turn it into a podcast. At the moment there is no distinct visual medium which requires the use of video. If you perhaps cut away to replays illustrating what you are saying it might improve the video medium.

As a simple example take the colossus episode.

Talk about the problem with corruptor's where either you kill all the colossi but you don't have a ground army left over and instead just have 10 corruptors wiggling about. *Show a replay of this happening in a PvZ engagement at high food with Artosis and Idra talking over it*

Or the problem where your corruptors just evaporate instantly and your ground army gets murdered by colossi. *Show a replay of this happening in a PvZ engagement at high food with artosis and idra talking over it*

These are just a few suggestions to cheaply improve the show.

ledarsi

United States475 Posts

February 11 2011 00:59 GMT

#269

Artosis you are absolutely the man. It's about time somebody addressed the almost taboo subject of balance. It's all over the forums, and there's a lot of bronze QQ, and complete silence from the players who really know what they are doing for fear of sounding like the bronze QQers.

It is amazing that you are being so professional about this show, and finally there is a place for truly top caliber players to make their opinions known in a productive manner. I know there are some people who are mindless dissenters, but rest assured that you can safely ignore them. The rest of us know you are not just QQing, this is something much deeper and more important.

On top of that the show is actually very educational about the mindset of the best players in the world about the structure of the game, which is something I have not seen anywhere else. Keep it up!

Hane

France210 Posts

February 11 2011 01:14 GMT

#270

On February 11 2011 08:39 DaBears57 wrote:
No, even the best like MC still slip up. In fact, one of the games he was streaming he had full chrono on 2 nexuses at 12 sc2 minutes in.

Sometimes, keeping CB is a part of your plan, in case of rush.
That's not so hard to keep nexus mana low since you want to make colossus/vr or you have 2forges.

Back to the video, i feel that MM is quite balanced, BUT MMM is an other story imo.
Since you have 4 medivacs you can multi drop, and that's really more scary than any mm push.

bole

Serbia164 Posts

February 11 2011 01:15 GMT

#271

i think the MM is OP in begining and after if your collos are down you cant do nothing with gatewy unites agenst terran.,.. with force feald 2...

i am more for soft conters then for hard conters... i think that blizz should nerf hard conters...it will made gameplay more fun to play and it will need more skill 2 play...

also if they bring back (replace hard conters) with soft it will game where you have comeback...

Sabu113

United States11075 Posts

February 11 2011 01:34 GMT

#272

I have no clue how terrans are bitching about their macro being more difficult.

You dont even have to look away from your army while you're macroing. We have other buildings that produce too. Plus chrono is every bit as intensive as mules/scan if not more.
-.-

Really really curious about this 1 gate FE that is so safe. Love to see a rep that i can jack this from.

wonderwall

New Zealand695 Posts

February 11 2011 01:48 GMT

#273

Perhaps it might be a better idea to turn it into a podcast. At the moment there is no distinct visual medium which requires the use of video. If you perhaps cut away to replays illustrating what you are saying it might improve the video medium.

As a simple example take the colossus episode.

Talk about the problem with corruptor's where either you kill all the colossi but you don't have a ground army left over and instead just have 10 corruptors wiggling about. *Show a replay of this happening in a PvZ engagement at high food with Artosis and Idra talking over it*

Or the problem where your corruptors just evaporate instantly and your ground army gets murdered by colossi. *Show a replay of this happening in a PvZ engagement at high food with artosis and idra talking over it*

Jibba

United States22883 Posts

February 11 2011 03:39 GMT

#274

Chilling.

Also, I'd like to see a new show unrelated to SC2 called Artosis, Animals N' Friends!

MagicGunner

United States78 Posts

February 11 2011 06:48 GMT

#275

Deny five...

+ Show Spoiler +

and Artosis super troll edition.

+ Show Spoiler +

sureshot_

United States257 Posts

February 11 2011 06:51 GMT

#276

I absolutely agree. I think these episodes could incorporate a variety of in-game footage/replays to demonstrate visually the topic at hand. It would also make the viewing experience much more satisfying.

In terms of content, once again I thought this was a really great discussion and covered, in general, the complexity of the TvP match up. I would really love to see Blizzard mess around in the PTR with terran and protoss upgrades (their accessibility to be more specific). I have to agree with Idra though, I definitely think Terran has the early game MUCH, much easier compared to Protoss, however the strength of force fields and sentry + gateway play its more than possible to deal with. I really hope though for the sake of lower level play that the difficulty between early game Terran and Protoss is addressed because, to be honest, Terran early game is the reason why 3 racks all ins are so common at lower level play (and so successful). Closing this difficulty gap could possibly be an example of Blizzard balancing SC2 for lower level play, while not significantly damaging the TvP match-up.

KawaiiRice

United States2914 Posts

February 11 2011 07:17 GMT

#277

So I tried out that theory against colo phoenix.. or just phoenix but w/e

+ Show Spoiler +

n_n
Hope episode 3 is more about tvp D:

edit: grr why is the picture thing too big
edit: fixed :>

Worm Shoes

United Kingdom22 Posts

February 11 2011 08:40 GMT

#278

Interesting stuff...i've now watched it - and can't unwatch it!

So i'll say this

1) It would be really cool if you got a terran player to sit with you guys and add their input too AND it would widen the discussion.

but my main point..

2) I've always said that C.shells and stim marauders are TOO good at what they do and believe that they should have one or the other...not both!
but that aside do you think that the upgrade for either stim or C.shells should be obtainable once you've built a factory or an engineering bay?

Also you know what i would love to see?...Marines only able to shoot ground and need an upgrade to shoot ground AND air!!!...yes i play Zerg lol

That would help an early scouting Overlord after the ramp is blocked so there's a little less guess work :p

terranghost

United States980 Posts

February 11 2011 08:48 GMT

#279

On February 10 2011 14:06 McMonty wrote:
You guys didnt mention EMP at all. If you rely on sentry energy to hold off an attack, and a single ghost EMPs your sentries, it is game over.

You do realize that teching up to ghosts costs200 gas and 80sec of game time. Not to mention the 3 less scvs on minerals because you will probably need a second geyser to get that ghost to go with one of your pushes. This equates to 3 less marauders in your push just for that one ghost and if the sentries aren't all bunched up then you have not done as much damage as you wanted to do. You can always use it on the clumped up ground forces but since you built ghosts you have a lower marauder count making guardian shield all the more affective.

WhiteDog

France8650 Posts

February 11 2011 10:23 GMT

#280

Without IdrA, the SC2 community will not be the same... for real.

By the way, I think everybody is missing the point in trying to search for one unit or one unit mix that is or not "imbalanced". The feeling of imbalance that many are facing from SC2 as something to do with timings. The tech tree is loled, everybody can tech expand in the most safe fashion (except zerg), while taking a third or a fourth, like Lalush explained us, is risky AND don't give almost anything maccro wise.

Nerfing any unit will certainly mess up any late game match up. What people need to look at is how to make certain things harder to get in the game, and others easier (mutas go out after thor drop... warpgate is too easy researched, stim shield concussive are so overpowered and come so early, and so on...).

PS: Hey Jibba, what's the music you used for yor AmerIdrA Beauty Remix, seems great.

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