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Worm Shoes
United Kingdom22 Posts
On February 11 2011 19:23 WhiteDog wrote: Without IdrA, the SC2 community will not be the same... for real. I second that  I know he gets loads of flak ...but to be honest he's actually one of the only ones who understands A LOT about the mechanics behind the game....just wish there was nothing said about the Beta Roach lol | ||
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Smigi
United States328 Posts
On February 11 2011 08:42 JDeathmetal wrote: Guys .. guys its not funny anymore. ok..... hahaha now it's funny again!!! still rolfcoptering! I'm wondering who will be the first to email them and ask: Idra how did you feel when artosis denied you the good old high five? But maybe his expression on his face tells enough  but on a serious note, people who say you need a terran and a protoss on the show really don't understand how good these guys are with their understanding of the game, just cause they both main zerg doesn't mean they don't know the other races, I mean common Artosis casts on GOMTV for godsakes, he knows all the builds even before those guys do it. So I think he knows pretty well whats good or bad in the game and what is imbalanced or not, ofc he sees things a bit more from the zerg point of view, but then again he has seen this stuff so many times that by now he knows every viable build thats out there (almost) so please keep this in mind before ranting on about needing more people on the show, ofc that would be fun but it isnt mandatory. Also I believe that in most levels below pro (also in masters etc me being a 2800 master) the mechanics and the relative ease of use of the terran army make terran a real strong race, I play terran on a friends account and im not yet very good at it but im starting to learn more and more of the race and I feel the mech path is really really strong (might call it imba) and with the MMM combo the dropping is so ridicelously strong from time to time, hey my opponent has 3 base --> lets drop in all three keep them hotkeyed Stim and snipe nexus or mineral line. GG I play alot of random so i know the most sorrow of all the races, I hate 4gate toss i hate MMM terran I hate Hydra/Roach timing zerg. Its all part of the game, and most match-ups feel pretty even. Ofc there are maps that do suck (steppes of war terran anyone ?!) ahahahahahahhahahahahaaa.. that was freaking hilarious. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
Ling speed: 100/100/110sec Burrow: 100/100/100sec Stim: 100/100/140 sec Shields: 100/100/110 sec Then they follow up with the 1 rax marauder expand that is soooo safe. Look at how much terran has to invest to stop a 4gate or 3gate void/robo. Also: Good forcefield makes gateway units come ahead bio. | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On February 11 2011 21:36 Thrombozyt wrote: Then they follow up with the 1 rax marauder expand that is soooo safe. Look at how much terran has to invest to stop a 4gate or 3gate void/robo. yeah, but they win the game if they do. and its not really difficult to win against the 4gate, 3gate robo is more difficult | ||
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DreamSailor
Canada433 Posts
On February 11 2011 21:36 Thrombozyt wrote: It appears that Idra needs to get some facts straight. At 20 mins he states that ling speed has a really long build time as has burrow and he also states that stim has a really short build time. Ling speed: 100/100/110sec Burrow: 100/100/100sec Stim: 100/100/140 sec Shields: 100/100/110 sec Then they follow up with the 1 rax marauder expand that is soooo safe. Look at how much terran has to invest to stop a 4gate or 3gate void/robo. Also: Good forcefield makes gateway units come ahead bio. Talking relatively, Zergling speed is basically required to make lings useful. Marines key upgrades can be gotten at the same time, and are incredibly powerful for the time required to get them. Stim is quite likely the best ability in the game by an incredibly large margin, requires only 100/100 and just over 2 minutes to research? There is something fundamentally wrong there. I have played 3v3's with my buddys, I'm like 2800 Diamond but haven't laddered in awhile, my buddy is silver 1v1 and my other buddy had never played a full game before (I was just dicking around with him in customs). Him and I rolled as Terran (Because I flat out told him it was the easiest to be good) and my buddy rolled zerg. Sure enough we got rushed pretty early @6-7 minutes or so by all 3. In my drunken coaching rage, we not only managed to completely crush the Roach/Marine/Stalker push, but we crushed it badly, and that was with a bad engagement from my Zerg friend who sac'd all his lings, and my Tbuddy showing up late. I realize 3v3 isn't "competitive" but seriously, I can drunkenly coach people how to win vs. players with over 400 games played, because marines are incredibly powerful, I told him to only make marines the entire game, even when Protoss had Colossus, we rolled their face in with mass marine, the rage I got at the end was nothing short of hilarious. Also, Forcefields required precise timing and energy, you can miss your forcefields, and if you do you will lose a lot. Terran basically has to completely overextend himself to get suckered into a force field. It is way easier to do stim micro, then sentry micro. User was warned for this post | ||
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m3rciless
United States1476 Posts
On February 11 2011 22:13 DreamSailor wrote: Talking relatively, Zergling speed is basically required to make lings useful. Marines key upgrades can be gotten at the same time, and are incredibly powerful for the time required to get them. Stim is quite likely the best ability in the game by an incredibly large margin, requires only 100/100 and just over 2 minutes to research? There is something fundamentally wrong there. I have played 3v3's with my buddys, I'm like 2800 Diamond but haven't laddered in awhile, my buddy is silver 1v1 and my other buddy had never played a full game before (I was just dicking around with him in customs). Him and I rolled as Terran (Because I flat out told him it was the easiest to be good) and my buddy rolled zerg. Sure enough we got rushed pretty early @6-7 minutes or so by all 3. In my drunken coaching rage, we not only managed to completely crush the Roach/Marine/Stalker push, but we crushed it badly, and that was with a bad engagement from my Zerg friend who sac'd all his lings, and my Tbuddy showing up late. I realize 3v3 isn't "competitive" but seriously, I can drunkenly coach people how to win vs. players with over 400 games played, because marines are incredibly powerful, I told him to only make marines the entire game, even when Protoss had Colossus, we rolled their face in with mass marine, the rage I got at the end was nothing short of hilarious. Also, Forcefields required precise timing and energy, you can miss your forcefields, and if you do you will lose a lot. Terran basically has to completely overextend himself to get suckered into a force field. It is way easier to do stim micro, then sentry micro. Yes your drunken anecdote of a retarded 3v3 did convince me that one of the races is totally overpowered, thanks for asking! | ||
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DreamSailor
Canada433 Posts
On February 11 2011 22:22 m3rciless wrote: Yes your drunken anecdote of a retarded 3v3 did convince me that one of the races is totally overpowered, thanks for asking! Easiest to be good =/= Overpowered. There is no other race in the game that you can spam your first units, take their upgrades, and literally dominate other players. I think Terran is the most diverse, and most untapped race at the moment. Once people get even better then they are now, and can do smoother transitions out of bio and into mech or air play then we will start to see Terrans really shining. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On February 11 2011 21:36 Thrombozyt wrote: It appears that Idra needs to get some facts straight. At 20 mins he states that ling speed has a really long build time as has burrow and he also states that stim has a really short build time. Ling speed: 100/100/110sec Burrow: 100/100/100sec Stim: 100/100/140 sec Shields: 100/100/110 sec Then they follow up with the 1 rax marauder expand that is soooo safe. Look at how much terran has to invest to stop a 4gate or 3gate void/robo. Also: Good forcefield makes gateway units come ahead bio. The Stim/ Ling/ Burrow upgrade time is an honest mistake by him coming from ...experience with one race, i understand it Also, as far as i know the one rax marauder can only really kill or do massive dmg if Protoss is greedy and does not make units early game. The attack, that i do, is 2 scvs 1 marine, 1 marauder. It is normal to be able to kill something...a zealot/ stalker etc as you will also lose units. It is similar to the one or 2 stalkers poke that can do a lot of dmg if you only have a few marines and no bunker. Really liked the show. Great work! | ||
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Armsved
Denmark642 Posts
If you as terran decide to do 2 rauder 1 marine + reaper preasure into FE you are very likely to die to the 1 gas 4 gate. When you have done your 1/2 rax FE you need to decide how many rax you want to go up to before teching to starport. If you tech to starport of 3 rax you are very likely to die to 3 gate robo (immortal) all in and the 2 base 6 gate all in. However if you go up to 4/5 barracks before teching to starport you are very likely to die to 3 gate robo (collusus) all in or the 2 base very fast collusus build because you are going to be too far behind in vikings and there will be a big timing window for toss. EDIT: yes scouting helps a lot, but none the less we see this happen to terrans all the time on the pro level. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13388 Posts
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zyglrox
United States1168 Posts
On February 11 2011 22:47 Armsved wrote: Now this is all fine and dandy, but what about all these 1/2 base all ins protoss can do and rape you if you do 1/2 rax FE. If you as terran decide to do 2 rauder 1 marine + reaper preasure into FE you are very likely to die to the 1 gas 4 gate. When you have done your 1/2 rax FE you need to decide how many rax you want to go up to before teching to starport. If you tech to starport of 3 rax you are very likely to die to 3 gate robo (immortal) all in and the 2 base 6 gate all in. However if you go up to 4/5 barracks before teching to starport you are very likely to die to 3 gate robo (collusus) all in or the 2 base very fast collusus build because you are going to be too far behind in vikings and there will be a big timing window for toss. EDIT: yes scouting helps a lot, but none the less we see this happen to terrans all the time on the pro level. YEA MAN, I died 1 gate FEing on steppes of war to a 4 rax. imba imba | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On February 11 2011 23:02 ZeromuS wrote: I watched and I must say the approach was a bit more reasonable this time around. looking at it as a result of minerals and thee burden of tech on protoss is an immersing approach I feel that the show is actually more about a theoretical approach to understand of the game than a balance discussion in a narrow sense. One thing I could criticize is that Artosis keeps on opening new threads about the show. It would be more convenient if there was one thread for the whole show. That would clean up the overview and generate more attention I think. Really enjoyed this video and keep it going IdrA and Artosis! | ||
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ccHaZaRd
Canada1024 Posts
On February 11 2011 08:39 DaBears57 wrote: Easiest to manage? Have you ever seen any protoss fully utilizing 3 nexus's worth of chrono and keep it down? No, even the best like MC still slip up. In fact, one of the games he was streaming he had full chrono on 2 nexuses at 12 sc2 minutes in. honestly once u get 3 nexus up you really cant keep all the chrono down unless you constantly use on warpgates | ||
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telfire
United States415 Posts
On February 12 2011 00:02 ccHaZaRd wrote: honestly once u get 3 nexus up you really cant keep all the chrono down unless you constantly use on warpgates Warpgates, upgrades, more probes. There's always stuff to chrono. If keeping chrono up causes you to not use all your structures, probably too many structures. That said, I don't see how you can argue that it is harder to manage than Inject Larva, and that's completely ignoring constant Creep Tumor which is just as vital in most situations. A bit harder than mules to be sure. | ||
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Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
I feel that the show is actually more about a theoretical approach to understand of the game than a balance discussion in a narrow sense. I agree, a lot of the initial confusion was that the naming of the show caused a lot of unintended obfuscation with regards to the content as their discussions are really far more substantive. | ||
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TheXenocide1
United States58 Posts
Making the queens auto cast larva injects would make zerg quite a bit easier to control. I think larva injects are actually the best marco machanic in the game if done perfectly. If done perfectly there would be just be a ton of larva (esp. in lower level games). I am a Zerg player and i think that one of the more necessary things a zerg needs to do is practice how they use their queens. When i lose a queen i start to feel very naked. The other macro mechanics, while important, can be pretty easy to catch up if you dont cast a chrono boost or drop a mule exactly when you get 50 energy because you can do it multiple times as soon as you realize it. "oh i have 100 energy, i better drop two mules (or chrono boost 2 buildings). The larva inject does not work like that since you have to wait for one to finish before doing another. So the game will punish you for not using queen energy asap where you can make up for it easily with the other races. Spreading creep is fine but do you really need more than 4 creep tumors? Anyway auto casting those things is going to make zerg much more simple to play and not have to manage their queens and just make units while spreading some creep around. Someone mentioned APM earlier and i believe (not completely sure about this though) that Zerg requires the most APM, than Terran, then Protoss. Imo Protoss's gateway warp in allowed for a lower APM because all their main units come from one hotkey (W). While terran has to determine which buildings have what addon and build from there as well as using the factory on a different hotkey. Zerg has to manage, the larva inject, creep spread, overlord placement, and building as many units as possible since the zerg units are not as cost effective. I feel like upgrades require about the same APM for each race (maybe terran a little more cause they have air, vehicle and infantry). But if you are going to play zerg an adjustment to the speed at which you play is needed or else your money will kinda start getting high and not have enough larva to spend it on cause of missed larva injects. I think that zerg is getting the shaft right now (esp. in lower leagues) because it does take faster play and this takes longer to figure out. This is a relatively new game and no one is perfect with the mechanics yet. But from the GSTL we can see that Zerg players are getting alot better, im excited to see more of Losira's play personally as well as July_Zerg's improvement as he adjusts to this game. I think the pros are starting to really nail down the Zerg mechanics and after that we will start to see huge improvements in strategy through these players. | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
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compscidude
176 Posts
My main argument will be with colosuss.Im only going to compare it to SC:BW because it was such a balanced game between all 3 races. Why not go look at the answer if its right infront of you? So... in sc:bw, anything remotely close to Colosuss was the reaver, it did a large splash damage but it was by no means any faster than a catapilar. Therefore, protoss was NOT suppose to be a mobile race. In addition, the true light shined when reaver was accompanied with the presence of shuttle, harassing between bases. [This made it exciting for the viewers as micro was very intensive] - This harass is doomed once spire goes up and soucrages fly out. However, in SC2, i believe that colosuss was added to substitute reaver from the SC:bw. Do i think it was a good idea? Hell no. Eventhough i play Toss, I win games that im not suppose to. Colosuss is like having a flying reaver that automatically comes with shuttle speed. It can hop on and off the cliff without any penalty to its speed. Back in SC:BW days, blizzard really had it right the first time.[ Hydra 1 supply] Zerg is suppose to swarm but as a protoss i dont feel that way anymore. If hydra and roach are given 2 supply each, which are equal to that of many ground armies of protoss, then they deserve a fair fight. If they have 200 and we have 200, give them atleast a remotely close fight that will result in either way, not just to the protoss which have 7 colosuss and 10 storms ready to engage. My point is, the game needs to be more micro intensive, and in order to do so. Make these units harder to execute, handicap their abilities. If one unit is fast, make him weak. If the unit can hop and off the cliff, make it so that its speed is delayed for few seconds. As of now, is see where the rage from zerg players are coming, and i feel the same way as a protoss. I want to play a game where its not just A move all time time. If any protoss wants to come forward with their opinion, please feel free to add on. | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On February 11 2011 22:47 Armsved wrote: Now this is all fine and dandy, but what about all these 1/2 base all ins protoss can do and rape you if you do 1/2 rax FE. If you as terran decide to do 2 rauder 1 marine + reaper preasure into FE you are very likely to die to the 1 gas 4 gate. When you have done your 1/2 rax FE you need to decide how many rax you want to go up to before teching to starport. If you tech to starport of 3 rax you are very likely to die to 3 gate robo (immortal) all in and the 2 base 6 gate all in. However if you go up to 4/5 barracks before teching to starport you are very likely to die to 3 gate robo (collusus) all in or the 2 base very fast collusus build because you are going to be too far behind in vikings and there will be a big timing window for toss. EDIT: yes scouting helps a lot, but none the less we see this happen to terrans all the time on the pro level. This is how I feel in TvP. I try to avoid FE as much as I can, even thou I'm a macro player. 2900 Masters. | ||
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
On February 12 2011 00:24 compscidude wrote: My point is, the game needs to be more micro intensive, and in order to do so. Make these units harder to execute, handicap their abilities. If one unit is fast, make him weak. If the unit can hop and off the cliff, make it so that its speed is delayed for few seconds. As of now, is see where the rage from zerg players are coming, and i feel the same way as a protoss. I want to play a game where its not just A move all time time. If any protoss wants to come forward with their opinion, please feel free to add on. I think what your saying there is right, just maybe from an angle that will make people go in the "harder = bad" corner. I think it's about risk, reward, effort and tension. The reaver required great effort, took a good amount of risk (tech, getting sniped, slow without shuttle) while potentially gaining a huge reward if used properly. That creates tension. These 4 points should make every unit special in its own field. An immortal fails at most of these points because once out, controlling it is like moving an oil tanker. But at the same time 3 emps should not be the reason for your army to completely steamroll your opponent. Sentries should not allow your lategame army to come out of the battle with almost all your units left. I think people enjoyed the MVP vs Squirtel match so much because we had our normal side attacks / harassment but multiple battles where 170+ armies clashed against each other smashing each other down to 100. And then the economy part of the game keeps being relevant and tension does not drop. | ||
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