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redwingxviii
United States101 Posts
I suppose the general community hopes that we will reach the point where rushes don't work and only players that can play the long macro games win (especially opposed to rushes ALWAYS working), but personally, I hope there's a balance between the two - i.e. some rushes work against players who greedily work towards the long, macro game. Other topic - as a P (vs T), sometimes throw up one cannon at the ramp in addition to a sentry, and that's been working well. | ||
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Predateur
Canada79 Posts
I agree that the early marauder/marine pressure needs a lot of attention on the protoss side to stop versus the cost/risk ratio of the terran making the attack. I wouldn't mind increasing the time before terran can get consecutive shells and stim, since it's way to early compare to the other race upgrade that can deal with it (charge/blink). Sorry for my english ---- Barbu.255 | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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DOMINOSC
Canada345 Posts
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compscidude
176 Posts
I am not biased by any means, i look at all three races equally and focus in aspects that lack each race's strength and personality. We know that zerg is suppose to be the "swarm". They are suppose to have this gloomy and dark feeling to them. The moment you step out of your base, armies appear from all around and eat you alive. But in SC2, this is not the case. If Blizzard decided to take a turn and introduce all these new units, why didnt they go ahead with zerg to make all 3 races more equal? Why not create a tier 2.5 unit that throws banelings ? you know where this is going. Their best bet is to hire each prospective progamers from Korea to work with them for several months to balance the game. At this rate, blizzard wont be able to reverse some of the dramatic flaws found in the game today if this continues any longer.. Like SC2 colosuss. I play toss and i still dont like this unit. Incredible long range, incredibly faster than any zerg unit, incredibly strong, incredibly fast attack speed. No punishment for miss micro. A-attack move solves it all. So my advice as far as balancing the game, hire progamers from Korea. As far as i know, some progammers in Korea are willing to balance the game for their own sake of enjoyment. I personally liked SC:BW better, it punished players very hard if you microed units in the wrong way, or if you didnt macro very well. I couldnt come close to beating zerg players in SC:BW, but now, the story changed. The same player that i lost to almost 10 times in a row, i can beat him 10 times in a row. This is the common theme in SC2, protoss is just far too easy to play and i do not like it. SC2 lacks too much micro component of the game. | ||
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JDeathmetal
Netherlands81 Posts
But maybe the whole game is to easy for you, you can beat like everyone 10 times in a row right? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
For example, speed roaches with attack upgrades are just unbelievably stupidly cost-efficient against Protoss's composition until Protoss gets 3 or 4+ collosi. Zealots get kited and are bad against roaches anyway, a 75/25 roach with attack upgrades kills a 125/50 stalker (nearly twice the cost), sentries cost a ton and do virtually no damage, you can't get enough immortals if you want collosi, and 1 or 2 collosi doesn't make up the difference. That leaves a huge timing window where Protoss's only hope of coming out close to even in any engagement is forcefields. And while forcefields are great for defending a frontal attack, they're not great for attacking (roaches choose to engage in an open area and can burrow move under forcefields to stay alive), they're bad for defending multiple positions so you can't take a third well, and they're awful for defending drops. What this means is that Zerg holds a significant advantage between the time that Protoss expands at ~35 food and the time that Protoss hits ~150 food with 4 collosi. Zerg can abuse the roach's efficiency to take a fast third base knowing that he can safely defend with half of P's army cost, and then Zerg can get drops and/or nydus to trade roaches efficiently for stalkers, sentries and collosi. Roaches are efficient against almost everything Protoss has. Their only drawback is that they're weak at 200/200, so you need to abuse their cost efficiency to create an economic lead and then find ways to trade units so that you don't hit the 200/200 vs 200/200 problem. | ||
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mechavoc
United States664 Posts
Nice to have non rant discussions on balance issues from people who know what they are talking about. Can't wait to see more videos. Perhaps they can have 3 people (One from each race) to have a truly balanced tribunal. | ||
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Whirlwindfox
19 Posts
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dryice135
Australia35 Posts
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On February 12 2011 09:46 dryice135 wrote: I think that you guys talked about the terran bio upgrades entirely from a protos POV and didnt discuss the terran POV of these upgrades. If suddenly stim and concussive shells were harder to obtain then aggressive/cheese protos builds such as in-base proxy gate(s) or 4 gate would be veeeeeeeeery hard to stop. I call BS on that. Proxy gates occur before u can even get a marauder out, and 4 gates are way later than concussive shell timing. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On February 12 2011 01:01 Arcanefrost wrote: Once you start playing vs zergs that really understand when you're fake pressuring and when not, and macro almost perfectly; colossi are pretty much the only way to survive midgame. They start attacking and remaxing really fast, suiciding on you army/your third base, and colossi are sort of your sole option to survive and get a 4th base up. When toss gets to 200/200 you can't win the first battle anymore as z, so you should focus on sniping colossi/void rays/sentries and getting hydra reinforcements. Most zergs really just lose because of macro mistakes, and not because voidray/colossi is supposedly imbalanced. A lot of zerg players just keep adding bases passively and don't use their midgame food advantage, unless you're macro was absolutely perfect you can't win then because the protoss just kills your amry with minimum losses and the reinforcements will be almost useless. I agree to this. Also I almost never see hydra reinforcements. Imho a hydra / corruptor composition would be ideal for a zerg army. Maybe throw in some roaches in front, but honestly I think zergs are going too roach heavy against non collosus armies. | ||
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dryice135
Australia35 Posts
On February 12 2011 09:56 Euronyme wrote: I call BS on that. Proxy gates occur before u can even get a marauder out, and 4 gates are way later than concussive shell timing. yes the proxy gate comes before marauders are out but the game doesnt just end there. the most common responses to proxy gate involve good simcity with 2-3 rax and getting very quick concusive shells. If we couldnt get shells very quickly then the protos would make a few stalkers and that is GG, the stalkers will micro all day against the marines and scv's. regarding the 4 gate, if you notice the comment was regarding stim as well.stim timing is generally around 4 gate timing depending on the build. | ||
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Tef
Sweden443 Posts
On February 12 2011 09:58 Euronyme wrote: I agree to this. Also I almost never see hydra reinforcements. Imho a hydra / corruptor composition would be ideal for a zerg army. Maybe throw in some roaches in front, but honestly I think zergs are going too roach heavy against non collosus armies. Hydras are veeery slow off creep. You can't put any pressure on a protoss with hydras without commiting to the attack. There is no way to retreat with hydras off creap. With to many hydras it will be even easier for protoss to force an engagement in a very unforgiving position. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On February 12 2011 03:37 kcdc wrote: In the collosus episode, the entire focus was on the 200/200 vs 200/200 army confrontation in the middle of the map. Sure, Protoss is favored in that fight, but there's so much more to the match-up. The standard Protoss opening right now is to expand off of gateways and then to tech to collosi on 2 bases. Protoss's goal is to take a third and then attack at 200/200 when he knows he's stronger, but there's a lot of game that happens between taking the natural and having 3 bases with 200/200 gateway+collosus. For example, speed roaches with attack upgrades are just unbelievably stupidly cost-efficient against Protoss's composition until Protoss gets 3 or 4+ collosi. Zealots get kited and are bad against roaches anyway, a 75/25 roach with attack upgrades kills a 125/50 stalker (nearly twice the cost), sentries cost a ton and do virtually no damage, you can't get enough immortals if you want collosi, and 1 or 2 collosi doesn't make up the difference. That leaves a huge timing window where Protoss's only hope of coming out close to even in any engagement is forcefields. And while forcefields are great for defending a frontal attack, they're not great for attacking (roaches choose to engage in an open area and can burrow move under forcefields to stay alive), they're bad for defending multiple positions so you can't take a third well, and they're awful for defending drops. What this means is that Zerg holds a significant advantage between the time that Protoss expands at ~35 food and the time that Protoss hits ~150 food with 4 collosi. Zerg can abuse the roach's efficiency to take a fast third base knowing that he can safely defend with half of P's army cost, and then Zerg can get drops and/or nydus to trade roaches efficiently for stalkers, sentries and collosi. Roaches are efficient against almost everything Protoss has. Their only drawback is that they're weak at 200/200, so you need to abuse their cost efficiency to create an economic lead and then find ways to trade units so that you don't hit the 200/200 vs 200/200 problem. all i can say is play zerg and take advantage of this timing window, ive started to play some protoss too and even though i thought it was all pretty easy from the Z perspective, playing P is different from what i imagined. im sure youll experience the same thing and youll come out of it with a far better understanding of the MU and what each race can do. Until then, you will, as almost every other player that only plays 1 race, hold a biased opinion of what advantages Zerg has and how difficult it is for Protoss. | ||
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RushBoxer!
United States173 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On February 12 2011 12:16 RushBoxer! wrote: I'm not so sure i agree with buffing the Archon. while i agree with Artosis that it is weak against terran, i dont agree that it isn't cost efficient. you get 2 high templar with storm or 2 dark templar to use before you combine them. ... yeah and given that in BW, you could kill Archons with Vultures which was ocmpletely sad. | ||
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RushBoxer!
United States173 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On February 10 2011 11:13 infinity21 wrote: IdrA completely glossed over phoenix colo unit mix in TvP... Yes rine/viking will do just fine against phoenix harass BUT at the time of engagement, before vikings can do any significant damage, the marines will melt to a significant number of colo. Then T has to make the choice to ignore phoenix and fire at the colo which may kill off 2-4 but at the cost of air dominance. Then the phoenix will simply lift up half of your remaining marauders and clean up. My point is, after a certain point, colo/phoenix can't be cracked with simple mmm+viking. The only time they can ever get to this point usually is when I see them using it as a twobase allin, otherwise, I don't have a problem whatsoever with this combo. I don't know how you engage vs colossus, but I always engage, then select all my marines and pull them back so Colossus are targeting the Marauders. | ||
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babolatt
Canada312 Posts
That aside, making mistakes about stim timing or cost or viking/phoenix range is fine, but when you base your entire logic on the fact that you know way more about the game than everyone else so what you say goes, you'd better do your research. The nonsense about Terran bio upgrades literally had me laughing hysterically at my computer. Good game! Edit: I'm also completely convinced that Artosis started playing Protoss for the sole reason of trying to gain credibility when talking about protoss imbalance. | ||
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