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Imbalanced - Show - Page 18

Forum Index > SC2 General
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fearlessparagon
Profile Joined November 2010
United States104 Posts
February 12 2011 17:18 GMT
#341
On February 12 2011 17:01 WTL wrote:

tears down my eyes
Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win
C.W.
Profile Joined August 2010
88 Posts
February 12 2011 17:31 GMT
#342
Artosis, you should introduce your pets since they were part of the show :p
Also kittypictures are good for calming down nerdnerves!
t(','t)
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
February 12 2011 18:52 GMT
#343
#1 It's obvious that they don't play terran, with colossi + phoenix being fine just by "the vikings can just stand under the rines and be covered from there". I don't really think colossi+phoenix is imba/too strong in TvP, but the vikings can most certainly not just hide under the rines.
The reason why terran requires vikings is to kill/reduce the number/soften the colossi before the fight aswell as kite the toss while the vikings handle the colossi.

#2 It'd be interested to get the corruption spell back on the corruptor. It'd still prob need to be nerfed a bit, since the duration is pretty long, but still... Dunno though, good idea atleast.

#3 I don't really see the issue with ultra vs zlot, you have blings... Immos are prob a bigger deal, but to me, ultras really aren't an issue, rather the colossi.

#4 With dropping on colossi that have friendly fire on, I don't really see anything wrong with it... I mean the colossi can actually move, so drops will be a lot harder to pull off and stalkers can keep sniping the ovies while they are moving over(for terran, drops would be pretty suicidal) and make it cost the opponent a ton more than the FF would do. Still dont really think the colossi needs to do friendly fire to balance it.

#5 bigger maps > 1 rax rauder expand... In any case, I don't really see the issue with it, you can counter it if you are ready for it.

#6 sentry = awesome. I really don't think it's smart to be asking a zerg player about Tvp :/ I mean it's disgusting how good sentry is at stopping rine/rauder aggression(before toss expos)
Also about MCs playstyle, i feel they kind of ignore that if the attack isn't going well enough, you can retreat and with 10 sentries, you can still get those forcefields back really fast, a new forcefield every 10 seconds. I mean if the terran holds his attacks off, he's most likely MMM, so those forcefields will still be painful.

TL:DR I think TvP really is fine. It'd still make the MU a lot more fun if they nerfed MMM a bit and buffed mech to compensate(or nerfed hts somehow).
0mgVitaminE
Profile Joined February 2009
United States1278 Posts
February 12 2011 19:11 GMT
#344
I really like the discussions so far, especially the part about tvp switching roles from bw. That offers some new perspective, and is making me think that the mu could really evolve from here into something much more dynamic than it is now. Being able (as t) to play both the attacking and defending roles early game gives them tons of options, but if it is balanced well i hope we will see a lot of build diversity
Hi there. I'm in a cave, how bout you?
Sicky
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom121 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-12 19:20:31
February 12 2011 19:20 GMT
#345
The show is really promising. What annoys me as that this might get less views than a crappy H to the usky Husky god awful videos. Keep it up though!

User was warned for this post
inSpire_
Profile Joined February 2011
Israel8 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-12 20:26:13
February 12 2011 20:25 GMT
#346
On February 13 2011 04:20 Sicky wrote:
The show is really promising. What annoys me as that this might get less views than a crappy H to the usky Husky god awful videos. Keep it up though!


+1

Great show!
atuor
Profile Joined July 2010
United States83 Posts
February 12 2011 21:06 GMT
#347
Love watchin this show. Would like to see some replays mixed in to get a visual of what exactly your talking about and watch it play out.
trooth
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany39 Posts
February 12 2011 21:13 GMT
#348
I really love that show, great job!

Buit i really felt sorry for idra after that high five joke by artosis. Take revenge grack!
Bleak
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Turkey3059 Posts
February 12 2011 21:13 GMT
#349
Some weird idea that I just got, can Marauder fill Vulture's role in TvP in order to protect the tanks?
"I am a beacon of knowledge blazing out across a black sea of ignorance. "
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
February 12 2011 22:04 GMT
#350
On February 12 2011 11:49 ChickenLips wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 12 2011 03:37 kcdc wrote:
In the collosus episode, the entire focus was on the 200/200 vs 200/200 army confrontation in the middle of the map. Sure, Protoss is favored in that fight, but there's so much more to the match-up. The standard Protoss opening right now is to expand off of gateways and then to tech to collosi on 2 bases. Protoss's goal is to take a third and then attack at 200/200 when he knows he's stronger, but there's a lot of game that happens between taking the natural and having 3 bases with 200/200 gateway+collosus.

For example, speed roaches with attack upgrades are just unbelievably stupidly cost-efficient against Protoss's composition until Protoss gets 3 or 4+ collosi. Zealots get kited and are bad against roaches anyway, a 75/25 roach with attack upgrades kills a 125/50 stalker (nearly twice the cost), sentries cost a ton and do virtually no damage, you can't get enough immortals if you want collosi, and 1 or 2 collosi doesn't make up the difference.

That leaves a huge timing window where Protoss's only hope of coming out close to even in any engagement is forcefields. And while forcefields are great for defending a frontal attack, they're not great for attacking (roaches choose to engage in an open area and can burrow move under forcefields to stay alive), they're bad for defending multiple positions so you can't take a third well, and they're awful for defending drops.

What this means is that Zerg holds a significant advantage between the time that Protoss expands at ~35 food and the time that Protoss hits ~150 food with 4 collosi. Zerg can abuse the roach's efficiency to take a fast third base knowing that he can safely defend with half of P's army cost, and then Zerg can get drops and/or nydus to trade roaches efficiently for stalkers, sentries and collosi. Roaches are efficient against almost everything Protoss has. Their only drawback is that they're weak at 200/200, so you need to abuse their cost efficiency to create an economic lead and then find ways to trade units so that you don't hit the 200/200 vs 200/200 problem.


all i can say is play zerg and take advantage of this timing window, ive started to play some protoss too and even though i thought it was all pretty easy from the Z perspective, playing P is different from what i imagined.

im sure youll experience the same thing and youll come out of it with a far better understanding of the MU and what each race can do. Until then, you will, as almost every other player that only plays 1 race, hold a biased opinion of what advantages Zerg has and how difficult it is for Protoss.


I've played a good bit of Zerg. I'd probably be low Masters level with Zerg overall, but my ZvP was much better than my ZvZ and ZvT.
AwallFTW
Profile Joined January 2011
United States103 Posts
February 12 2011 22:22 GMT
#351
On February 13 2011 02:18 fearlessparagon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 12 2011 17:01 WTL wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9crkb3gjh4&feature=player_embedded

tears down my eyes


LOLz. This is hilarious. I think its great that you thought to make this video about Idra's disappointment, after all of the serious content they talk about. Please keep making stuff like this.
MC Probe, Yeah, Yeah Thats Me... MC Probe... Seriously.
bearhug
Profile Joined September 2010
United States999 Posts
February 12 2011 23:32 GMT
#352
cool. artosis gogogo!
We are dusts in the vast cosmic arena. Need to make the most out of life when we still have it.
bole
Profile Joined January 2011
Serbia164 Posts
February 13 2011 00:32 GMT
#353
cat ruined this episode...i couldnt listen wholl time all those noises...

also i dont agree with idra simply you cant go out of base if terran comes with mm stimed...+terran can expends at that time....

all those upgreads comes to early simly stim pack ,shilds,slow granades...to meny upgreads..

and stim in beginign early game and late game is too good.. but hope blizz wil eventualy fix it..

also buff some mech simply mid and late game terran sucks hard...on larger maps they cant do nothing...they are broken.. (maby ravens difense drone buff will do good for terrans late game..)
Yamulo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2096 Posts
February 13 2011 01:52 GMT
#354
On February 10 2011 11:13 infinity21 wrote:
IdrA completely glossed over phoenix colo unit mix in TvP... Yes rine/viking will do just fine against phoenix harass BUT at the time of engagement, before vikings can do any significant damage, the marines will melt to a significant number of colo. Then T has to make the choice to ignore phoenix and fire at the colo which may kill off 2-4 but at the cost of air dominance. Then the phoenix will simply lift up half of your remaining marauders and clean up.

My point is, after a certain point, colo/phoenix can't be cracked with simple mmm+viking.


there is a unit called a THOR that does aoe dps that has a + dmg modifier to light i would suggest you use it.. But yea, emp the pheonix works too just don't think 1 dimensionally you have to tools to deal with it so i would suggest you use them. Btw pheonix can't lift with 0 energy i hope this hints at what i suggest...
~~~Liquid Fighting (SC2)~~~
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
February 13 2011 02:11 GMT
#355
On February 12 2011 00:13 TheXenocide1 wrote:
So some people have talked about auto-casting the Orbital, Queen, and Chrono Boost. I think this would not really be a great idea.


Do these people realize the sole addition of these mechanics was to make the player have more to do? Blizzard reacted to feedback saying it was overall too easy macro so added these features. If you made them autocast you might as well just remove them, because the whole fucking point is, that its extra work.
HentaiPrime
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada85 Posts
February 13 2011 06:00 GMT
#356
On February 12 2011 17:01 WTL wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9crkb3gjh4&feature=player_embedded


my god, it's so beautiful
┻━━━┻ ︵ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯¯\_(ツ)_/¯¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ︵ ▄▄▄︵ ҉‭‭‭˙ (╯°o°)╯
Rabbet
Profile Joined December 2009
Canada404 Posts
February 13 2011 07:30 GMT
#357
I think you guys would have had a warmer welcome if you had made this your first show instead of QQ ing about zerg being under powered. Since you neither of you play T or P(yes I know Artosis played P one time) you are able to sound much more objective, and objectivity is what people want in such a charged up conversation.

Pretty fair analysis, lets see if you can keep it up. I bet you can't.
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8751 Posts
February 13 2011 07:32 GMT
#358
came very close to having to cancel the show with morrow making the finals of assembly!
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18919 Posts
February 13 2011 07:38 GMT
#359
On February 13 2011 16:30 Rabbet wrote:
I think you guys would have had a warmer welcome if you had made this your first show instead of QQ ing about zerg being under powered. Since you neither of you play T or P(yes I know Artosis played P one time) you are able to sound much more objective, and objectivity is what people want in such a charged up conversation.

Pretty fair analysis, lets see if you can keep it up. I bet you can't.

Hostile much? Do you think these players aren't able to analyze their own race, that they play the most of, objectively - especially considering Artosis has been playing more and more of protoss lately - considering they've been indepth with starcraft 1 and 2 for so long? And it wasn't a huge QQ fest if you actually watched the whole thing - rather it was a critical opinion on the current state of the game and their interactions with it - giving a supported opinion isn't the equivalent of QQing.

I think these players can review whatever aspects of the game and still have merit in their opinion.
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Megaliskuu
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5123 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-13 08:11:21
February 13 2011 07:40 GMT
#360
On February 13 2011 16:32 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
came very close to having to cancel the show with morrow making the finals of assembly!


Depends on whether you consider not being able to say the word "balance" means he can't say "imbalance" :p.
|BW>Everything|Add me on star2 KR server TheMuTaL.675 for practice games :)|NEX clan| https://www.dotabuff.com/players/183104694
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