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Just as an experiment, and to help round out the opinions, I'd love for IdrA and Artosis to privately roll Terran for like a week.
I'm not saying they don't have the ability to put themselves in Terran's shoes, to some extent, but to say it is "easier" for the Terran to execute a Marauder -> Expand, or a Stim Timing Push, or a technical Raven All-in would suggest that they've done these things, and have found it to be easier than what it takes to stop it.
I feel like for them to roll Terran for a bit, and try some of these things, they will probably gain a little bit more respect for the Terran players.
Stim is too early and too cheap?
• Ling speed is just as early, and just as cheap, and just as useful.
• Warpgate costs the same as concussive shell. But c-shells, a single-target slow spell, might be imba?
• The Cyber Core unlocks Warpgate, Stalker, Hallucination, Air Upgrades, and one of the most useful spell-casters in the game - the Sentry, but the Barrack's tech lab might be imba?
I honestly just don't see it. Warpgate finishes at 5:30-6:00 ish (Speed-first also finishes right around 5:30 ish, right?), and Stim finishes at like 7 minutes, usually.
I'm enjoying the show, but I sincerely feel like there is a lack of understanding from the Terran perspective.
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Well TimeSpiral can you put yourself in the Protoss shoes? ;o)
Protoss can't fight MM with Gateway units.
You can't engage a fight with an equal expansive army.
Protoss needs Forcefield Micro or higher Tech units.
[EDIT] by that I mean equal expansive gateway army (zealot stalker), you need good forcefields or higher tech supporting.
Yes, you can force field the ramp and stop the Terran Bio.
But then he can still contain you at your ramp and build his expo.
If the area around the Expo is wide, Protoss get's it harder to do good Force-Field work.
With Stim Terran might run around force Fields.
Making it hard for Protoss to move out of their base and build their expo.
It feels like you need the colossus ultra fast and can get your expo only very late.
With that Terran get get a economical advantage and tech to Viking or Mech, blindly in expectation of colossus play.
Terrans army is very effective in small numbers.
You can Stim run away when you see that the Toss army is much bigger.
Or you can Stim snipe Immortals/Colossi if there are only a few support units.
You can drop ship 4 Marauders and snipe Pylons or even a Nexus.
And the forcefields don't help against good drop ship play.
On February 18 2011 01:29 TimeSpiral wrote:
Stim is too early and too cheap?
I honestly just don't see it. Warpgate finishes at 5:30-6:00 ish (Speed-first also finishes right around 5:30 ish, right?), and Stim finishes at like 7 minutes, usually.
The Warpgate alone doesn't help you.
What is warping anywhere help you against a contain at your ramp?
It only allows you to make units faster.
Just like having more Gateways.
Stim makes the small MM groups even stronger.
Like mentioned above: that makes the MM strong in the early game or for drops as example.
It surely is not hardcore imbalanced.
The video actually covers the topic very good.
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On February 20 2011 09:29 MESeidel wrote:Well TimeSpiral can you put yourself in the Protoss shoes? ;o) Protoss can't fight MM with Gateway units. You can't engage a fight with an equal expansive army. Protoss needs Forcefield Micro or higher Tech units. Yes, you can force field the ramp and stop the Terran Bio. But then he can still contain you at your ramp and build his expo. If the area around the Expo is wide, Protoss get's it harder to do good Force-Field work. With Stim Terran might run around force Fields. Making it hard for Protoss to move out of their base and build their expo. It feels like you need the colossus ultra fast and can get your expo only very late. With that Terran get get a economical advantage and tech to Viking or Mech, blindly in expectation of colossus play. Terrans army is very effective in small numbers. You can Stim run away when you see that the Toss army is much bigger. Or you can Stim snipe Immortals/Colossi if there are only a few support units. You can drop ship 4 Marauders and snipe Pylons or even a Nexus. And the forcefields don't help against good drop ship play. Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 01:29 TimeSpiral wrote:
Stim is too early and too cheap?
I honestly just don't see it. Warpgate finishes at 5:30-6:00 ish (Speed-first also finishes right around 5:30 ish, right?), and Stim finishes at like 7 minutes, usually. The Warpgate alone doesn't help you. What is warping anywhere help you against a contain at your ramp? It only allows you to make units faster. Just like having more Gateways. Stim makes the small MM groups even stronger. Like mentioned above: that makes the MM strong in the early game or for drops as example. It surely is not hardcore imbalanced. The video actually covers the topic very good.
Protoss can't fight MM with Gateway units.
Wrong.
You can't engage a fight with an equal expansive army.
Very Wrong.
With that Terran get get a economical advantage and tech to Viking or Mech, blindly in expectation of colossus play.
Don't go colossus every single game and this becomes an advantage.
You can Stim run away when you see that the Toss army is much bigger.
Congrats, the terran just like ~25% of his total army hitpoints (army DPS remains the same but loses longevity, so the DPS drops rapidly during engagement), which he cannot fix until medivacs. Enjoy temporary map control.
And the forcefields don't help against good drop ship play.
Wrong.
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On February 20 2011 09:39 PaleBlueDot wrote:
Protoss can't fight MM with Gateway units.
Wrong.
You can't engage a fight with an equal expansive army.
Very Wrong.
[b]
I meant you can't beat MM with zealot stalker for the same cost.
You need force fields or higher tech support.
Think that wasn't expressed too good in these two sentences.
But in the fact that the whole Episode 2 topic is around early game, it should be clear.
It is possible to fight MM with pure Zealot+Stalker.
But you need a perfect balance and very good control.
As soon as you get a little low on one of both the MM kills it super easy.
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On February 20 2011 09:39 PaleBlueDot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 09:29 MESeidel wrote:Well TimeSpiral can you put yourself in the Protoss shoes? ;o) Protoss can't fight MM with Gateway units. You can't engage a fight with an equal expansive army. Protoss needs Forcefield Micro or higher Tech units. Yes, you can force field the ramp and stop the Terran Bio. But then he can still contain you at your ramp and build his expo. If the area around the Expo is wide, Protoss get's it harder to do good Force-Field work. With Stim Terran might run around force Fields. Making it hard for Protoss to move out of their base and build their expo. It feels like you need the colossus ultra fast and can get your expo only very late. With that Terran get get a economical advantage and tech to Viking or Mech, blindly in expectation of colossus play. Terrans army is very effective in small numbers. You can Stim run away when you see that the Toss army is much bigger. Or you can Stim snipe Immortals/Colossi if there are only a few support units. You can drop ship 4 Marauders and snipe Pylons or even a Nexus. And the forcefields don't help against good drop ship play. On February 18 2011 01:29 TimeSpiral wrote:
Stim is too early and too cheap?
I honestly just don't see it. Warpgate finishes at 5:30-6:00 ish (Speed-first also finishes right around 5:30 ish, right?), and Stim finishes at like 7 minutes, usually. The Warpgate alone doesn't help you. What is warping anywhere help you against a contain at your ramp? It only allows you to make units faster. Just like having more Gateways. Stim makes the small MM groups even stronger. Like mentioned above: that makes the MM strong in the early game or for drops as example. It surely is not hardcore imbalanced. The video actually covers the topic very good.
Protoss can't fight MM with Gateway units
Wrong..
Wrong.
You can't engage a fight with an equal expansive army
Very Wrong..
Wronger.
With that Terran get get a economical advantage and tech to Viking or Mech, blindly in expectation of colossus play.
Don't go colossus every single game and this becomes an advantage.
You can Stim run away when you see that the Toss army is much bigger.
Congrats, the terran just like ~25% of his total army hitpoints (army DPS remains the same but loses longevity, so the DPS drops rapidly during engagement), which he cannot fix until medivacs. Enjoy temporary map control.[/i].[/b]
Congrats, you just got a P army that was much bigger than the T's (which means terran has already had time to expand and get medvacs), which means you lose map control again due to drops.
And the forcefields don't help against good drop ship play.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Am I doing it right?
Sorry if this is out of line, just thought combatting statements with no reasoning with similar statements would help show how weak the argument is (and also wrong IMO, gateway units lose to equal amounts of MM, which means if both expand and both have the same units then the second point is incorrect, and FF's do nothing against GOOD drop ship play).
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Gateway units get crushed by MM - because zealots don't do any damage getting kited all day long and stalkers get wrecked by marauders,therefore protoss are forced to get collosus/ht to fight mm.
I would rather lose 25 percent of health of my army as terran than losing half of army units as protoss because concussive shell makes it impossible to run away.
Please explain how FF helps against drop play?
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On February 20 2011 09:39 PaleBlueDot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 09:29 MESeidel wrote:Well TimeSpiral can you put yourself in the Protoss shoes? ;o) Protoss can't fight MM with Gateway units. You can't engage a fight with an equal expansive army. Protoss needs Forcefield Micro or higher Tech units. Yes, you can force field the ramp and stop the Terran Bio. But then he can still contain you at your ramp and build his expo. If the area around the Expo is wide, Protoss get's it harder to do good Force-Field work. With Stim Terran might run around force Fields. Making it hard for Protoss to move out of their base and build their expo. It feels like you need the colossus ultra fast and can get your expo only very late. With that Terran get get a economical advantage and tech to Viking or Mech, blindly in expectation of colossus play. Terrans army is very effective in small numbers. You can Stim run away when you see that the Toss army is much bigger. Or you can Stim snipe Immortals/Colossi if there are only a few support units. You can drop ship 4 Marauders and snipe Pylons or even a Nexus. And the forcefields don't help against good drop ship play. On February 18 2011 01:29 TimeSpiral wrote:
Stim is too early and too cheap?
I honestly just don't see it. Warpgate finishes at 5:30-6:00 ish (Speed-first also finishes right around 5:30 ish, right?), and Stim finishes at like 7 minutes, usually. The Warpgate alone doesn't help you. What is warping anywhere help you against a contain at your ramp? It only allows you to make units faster. Just like having more Gateways. Stim makes the small MM groups even stronger. Like mentioned above: that makes the MM strong in the early game or for drops as example. It surely is not hardcore imbalanced. The video actually covers the topic very good. Protoss can't fight MM with Gateway units.Wrong. You can't engage a fight with an equal expansive army.Very Wrong.
With that Terran get get a economical advantage and tech to Viking or Mech, blindly in expectation of colossus play.Don't go colossus every single game and this becomes an advantage.
You can Stim run away when you see that the Toss army is much bigger.Congrats, the terran just like ~25% of his total army hitpoints (army DPS remains the same but loses longevity, so the DPS drops rapidly during engagement), which he cannot fix until medivacs. Enjoy temporary map control. And the forcefields don't help against good drop ship play.Wrong.
you sir are fucking retarded. bronze league?
mmm > gateway units. PERIOD.
User was temp banned for this post.
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This has become what I knew it would end up being, the worst balance argument thread ever.
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i hate how artosis in every single tvx match, and a lot of P/Z complain about the bunker resell. of course it makes no sense. neither do a lot of things: battlecruisers and void rays being much slower than marines on the freaking ground and being able to target a single unit on the ground with 100% accuracy, MAGIC, how every starting base magically has a choke point, how only phoenixes can attack while moving (I think), nukes doing far less damage than in real life. because if they were realistic the game would suck ass. there would be no spells, terrans would turtle and rush to NUKES, vikings would take 2 minutes to transform from air to ground, cloaked units would either pointless (because you can SEE them) or INVISIBLE, etc. if bunkers are IMBA it's not because they aren't realistic or their mechanic doesn't "make sense."
terrans have scans, protoss have observers (cloaked cloak detectors!), zerg can...sac an overlord. sucks most for zerg as ovies can be killed before they see anything. but who said that all races have to have equal every single aspect of the game? obviously terran is the worst at replenishing their army in the late game. but terran can also sac most of his scvs and can have the biggest late game army.
if every single aspect of the game were balanced, the game would end up being boring. lots of people hate mirror matchups for one thing. also, minor point, but the "team league" format would be boring as hell too.
also the mass MULE QQing is stupid silly. that's like building up a trust fund. P/Z, feel free to do the same thing if you want! oh, and Z can actually use a trust fund to remax their army later with their stockpiled larva. any time someone calls down 12 MULEs at once, that means that his army could've been that much bigger before that point. you might've died before that point if he didn't forget about or actually stockpiled his MULEs.
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It would probably be better balance discussions if it was limited to masters or something. All you get now is either very angry people making up stuff that just doesn't work outside of a lower league or just in general do not know what they are talking about. Sure you can get bad advice from anywhere, but it is a lot less likely.
+ Show Spoiler +"Sorry if this is out of line, just thought combatting statements with no reasoning with similar statements would help show how weak the argument is (and also wrong IMO, gateway units lose to equal amounts of MM, which means if both expand and both have the same units then the second point is incorrect, and FF's do nothing against GOOD drop ship play).
"
Its not out of line, its just also wrong. The argument is never necessarily wrong because of the person not explaining why. Just go look at every single pro replay out there (get mine from sc2reps, but it doesnt matter where) for TvP and try to tell me that most of those are wrong. Also gateway units do not lose to equal cost MM if you use your sentries right, so yeah.
+ Show Spoiler +"Gateway units get crushed by MM - because zealots don't do any damage getting kited all day long and stalkers get wrecked by marauders,therefore protoss are forced to get collosus/ht to fight mm.
I would rather lose 25 percent of health of my army as terran than losing half of army units as protoss because concussive shell makes it impossible to run away.
Please explain how FF helps against drop play?"
Zealots do damage if you forcefield correctly. This is even worse early game considering they are just tanking so the stalkers can fire from cover. Zealots do get kited, if you don't forcefield. Stalkers DO get wrecked by marauders, which is why you have zealots as a mobile wall and sentries as a literal wall. Concussive shells make it impossible to run away? I wonder what forcefields do.....
Odd how much sentries are brought up, maybe they are important or something.
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Why dont you get a Terran to talk in your show so you can hear his point of view?
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On February 20 2011 10:52 Santi wrote:
Why dont you get a Terran to talk in your show so you can hear his point of view?
better yet, TLO (random who clearly likes the imba protoss least)
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On February 20 2011 10:39 PaleBlueDot wrote:
Zealots do damage if you forcefield correctly. This is even worse early game considering they are just tanking so the stalkers can fire from cover. Zealots do get kited, if you don't forcefield. Stalkers DO get wrecked by marauders, which is why you have zealots as a mobile wall and sentries as a literal wall. Concussive shells make it impossible to run away? I wonder what forcefields do.....
Odd how much sentries are brought up, maybe they are important or something.
Yes Force Fields help.
The whole talk on this pages is around that.
Your single quote does not involving the discussion, that went to this point.
The whole point of the video is why TvP looks inbalanced to players because Protoss needs FF play or rush for higher tech units.
While Terran can go 1/2/3 racks MM, expand or time push and more.
Please watch the video and what the person you quoted was referring too.
It was not about general discussion of Terran vs. Protoss units.
But about special situations, like the game opening or drop ship play.
In the early game you likely have too few sentries to fight on a wide area to secure your Expo.
And similar are the problems against good drop ship play.
No offence meant ;o)
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Really looking forward to the next few shows, I think Idra mentioned that they would up the production value by adding in replays and such on SoTG so that will be really interesting.
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On February 20 2011 10:52 Santi wrote:
Why dont you get a Terran to talk in your show so you can hear his point of view?
Why don't you address the actual problems they are talking about?
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On February 20 2011 11:09 MESeidel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 10:39 PaleBlueDot wrote:
Zealots do damage if you forcefield correctly. This is even worse early game considering they are just tanking so the stalkers can fire from cover. Zealots do get kited, if you don't forcefield. Stalkers DO get wrecked by marauders, which is why you have zealots as a mobile wall and sentries as a literal wall. Concussive shells make it impossible to run away? I wonder what forcefields do.....
Odd how much sentries are brought up, maybe they are important or something. Yes Force Fields help. The whole talk on this pages is around that. Your single quote does not involving the discussion, that went to this point. The whole point of the video is why TvP looks inbalanced to players because Protoss needs FF play or rush for higher tech units. While Terran can go 1/2/3 racks MM, expand or time push and more. Please watch the video and what the person you quoted was referring too. It was not about general discussion of Terran vs. Protoss units. But about special situations, like the game opening or drop ship play. In the early game you likely have too few sentries to fight on a wide area to secure your Expo. And similar are the problems against good drop ship play. No offence meant ;o)
Couldn't take offense because I wasn't sure what I was reading. The part about not having enough sentries is BS as well, i've seen some pretty damn sentry heavy openings. Sure it takes away gas for tech, but you can't tell me you don't have enough when the problem is you don't make enough.
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On February 20 2011 11:43 PaleBlueDot wrote:Couldn't take offense because I wasn't sure what I was reading. The part about not having enough sentries is BS as well, i've seen some pretty damn sentry heavy openings. Sure it takes away gas for tech, but you can't tell me you don't have enough when the problem is you don't make enough.
If you have enough sentries n time depends on the map.
- how short is the rush distance.
- how wide is the area to defend (on natural expo)
Like I said I'm nowhere near top skill level.
But I just got 2 rax pure marauder pushed at close ground pos on meta.
First one was in my base before I had a sentry.
No matter how perfect you execute the opening I doubt you have a sentry to block the ramp earlier.
(some pros actually skit the zealot and would be screwed as well).
And then again.
If you can hold the ramp to your main base is worth nothing if the Terran can expand.
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On February 18 2011 01:29 TimeSpiral wrote:
Just as an experiment, and to help round out the opinions, I'd love for IdrA and Artosis to privately roll Terran for like a week.
I'm not saying they don't have the ability to put themselves in Terran's shoes, to some extent, but to say it is "easier" for the Terran to execute a Marauder -> Expand, or a Stim Timing Push, or a technical Raven All-in would suggest that they've done these things, and have found it to be easier than what it takes to stop it.
I feel like for them to roll Terran for a bit, and try some of these things, they will probably gain a little bit more respect for the Terran players.
Stim is too early and too cheap?
• Ling speed is just as early, and just as cheap, and just as useful.
• Warpgate costs the same as concussive shell. But c-shells, a single-target slow spell, might be imba?
• The Cyber Core unlocks Warpgate, Stalker, Hallucination, Air Upgrades, and one of the most useful spell-casters in the game - the Sentry, but the Barrack's tech lab might be imba?
I honestly just don't see it. Warpgate finishes at 5:30-6:00 ish (Speed-first also finishes right around 5:30 ish, right?), and Stim finishes at like 7 minutes, usually.
I'm enjoying the show, but I sincerely feel like there is a lack of understanding from the Terran perspective.
You should be aware that pro players often off-race for fun in their downtime. IdrA has said before that he and other zerg players sometimes pick Terran against eachothers zergs and win.
Do they have super absurd understands of every Terran niche like Jinro does? No, but I'd be willing to bet that they know Terran better than a lot of Master Terrans. You need an understanding of the other races to know how to beat them.
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On February 20 2011 10:18 underdawg wrote:
i hate how artosis in every single tvx match, and a lot of P/Z complain about the bunker resell. of course it makes no sense. neither do a lot of things: battlecruisers and void rays being much slower than marines on the freaking ground and being able to target a single unit on the ground with 100% accuracy, MAGIC, how every starting base magically has a choke point, how only phoenixes can attack while moving (I think), nukes doing far less damage than in real life. because if they were realistic the game would suck ass. there would be no spells, terrans would turtle and rush to NUKES, vikings would take 2 minutes to transform from air to ground, cloaked units would either pointless (because you can SEE them) or INVISIBLE, etc. if bunkers are IMBA it's not because they aren't realistic or their mechanic doesn't "make sense."
terrans have scans, protoss have observers (cloaked cloak detectors!), zerg can...sac an overlord. sucks most for zerg as ovies can be killed before they see anything. but who said that all races have to have equal every single aspect of the game? obviously terran is the worst at replenishing their army in the late game. but terran can also sac most of his scvs and can have the biggest late game army.
if every single aspect of the game were balanced, the game would end up being boring. lots of people hate mirror matchups for one thing. also, minor point, but the "team league" format would be boring as hell too.
also the mass MULE QQing is stupid silly. that's like building up a trust fund. P/Z, feel free to do the same thing if you want! oh, and Z can actually use a trust fund to remax their army later with their stockpiled larva. any time someone calls down 12 MULEs at once, that means that his army could've been that much bigger before that point. you might've died before that point if he didn't forget about or actually stockpiled his MULEs.
Bc/vr movement speed is silly. flying units targeting a ground unit with 100% accuracy happens today, instead of magic think MATH. Every starting area has a choke point because that would a good place to land, on the game side of things it would make Zerg super imba. Every unit that doesn't have an attack animation (mutas eg) can attack while moving.
Bunkers aren't necessarily imba, they just have too much synergy with the rest of T. The way I have come to look at this game is that T is refined and polished whereas P and especially Z aren't so much. This would make sense in a developers pov because this game is about T.
Late game T can have better production of more efficient units than P and Z. while it is odd to get there you can make 15 reactor rax (which I heard a pro talk about recently, not sure where) and just overpower many unit comps w/ marine/tank/medivac. Mule QQ is because it is so much more powerful than p or z options, If Z didn't have queens they would make more hatcheries and be like bw, if P didn't have chronoboost it would slow them down marginally, but T can practically build a cc off of 1 mule, it spikes production by 5 scv's or so and you can oversaturate bases because they don't take up a mineral patch. The problem with your argument is that you are basing it off of what if the terran didn't do it whereas it really is what if the terran didn't have it. That being said this game is really close to being balanced but everyone including korean pros knows that terran is the strongest race and that zerg is the weakest.
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On February 18 2011 01:29 TimeSpiral wrote:
Just as an experiment, and to help round out the opinions, I'd love for IdrA and Artosis to privately roll Terran for like a week.
I'm not saying they don't have the ability to put themselves in Terran's shoes, to some extent, but to say it is "easier" for the Terran to execute a Marauder -> Expand, or a Stim Timing Push, or a technical Raven All-in would suggest that they've done these things, and have found it to be easier than what it takes to stop it.
I feel like for them to roll Terran for a bit, and try some of these things, they will probably gain a little bit more respect for the Terran players.
Stim is too early and too cheap?
• Ling speed is just as early, and just as cheap, and just as useful.
• Warpgate costs the same as concussive shell. But c-shells, a single-target slow spell, might be imba?
• The Cyber Core unlocks Warpgate, Stalker, Hallucination, Air Upgrades, and one of the most useful spell-casters in the game - the Sentry, but the Barrack's tech lab might be imba?
I honestly just don't see it. Warpgate finishes at 5:30-6:00 ish (Speed-first also finishes right around 5:30 ish, right?), and Stim finishes at like 7 minutes, usually.
I'm enjoying the show, but I sincerely feel like there is a lack of understanding from the Terran perspective.
I'm sure artosis is at least a diamond/master T and IdrA used to play terran and there was some speculation back in november that he could main terran. Without a doubt both of these players are better terran than the majority of terrans (non-pros) in the game.
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EPT
