|
On February 10 2011 11:51 Veil wrote: Could have concussion grenades not available until the factory also.
This should have been the reaper nerf in the first place, 5rax reaper was overpowered because the marauder transition made it not all-in. Making concussive shell require factory would have made a reaper all-in possible, but impossible to successfully transition out of.
|
An audio-only version would be awesome.
|
Holy smokes! 50 minutes? Haven't waited yet but I better get ready. Lets go Terran!!! Can't wait. IdrA has some great knowledge of the game.
|
Pretty good discussion keep it up!
|
Uh oh. TvP discussion. Watching now...
|
On February 10 2011 11:54 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 11:51 Veil wrote: Could have concussion grenades not available until the factory also. This should have been the reaper nerf in the first place, 5rax reaper was overpowered because the marauder transition made it not all-in. Making concussive shell require factory would have made a reaper all-in possible, but impossible to successfully transition out of.
Wasn't the problem mainly with Zerg? I don't think 5 rax reaper was much of a TvP strat. Marauders don't really need concusive to be effective against roaches, which was the most reliable response to that many reapers.
|
On February 10 2011 11:54 Dommk wrote:I think the conclusion of it being easier for the Terran in this situation best describes it, it is not impossible to hold off, but there is a lot more pressure on the Protoss to not fuck up, one missed force field, not enough sentries, too many sentres, positioning, unit combination, choosing the right time to tech whilst getting pressured... Show nested quote +Outdated. Since the patch, 2stargate chrono phoenix = 2port reactor viking production. Used to work though.
Also, always enjoy artosis vods ~ thx yo ... He can't chronoboost Pheonix for ever, if so he will delay Colossus/upgrades, which isn't that great of a trade off, and it is not like the Pheonix cost any less, with a certain income he still can only get a certain amount of Phoenix/Colossus
Yes, but the terran army relies on low tier units, while the protoss unit relies on having high tier units, and keeping them alive, which they can effectively do with 2 stargates even if the terran can produce 4 vikings at a time. Producing 4 vikings at a time is a huge detriment to to army size of terran, which is important because terran relies on army size because it's low tier. Producing phoenix detracts from the protoss force also, but if they can get a good amount of colossi and keep them alive they have the advantage. Also vikings serve no other use than to kill colossi, on the other hand phoenix can harass and pick up tanks if they are used.
Also I don't agree with TvP being terran favored early game at all. Protoss has some of the most useful skills to stop early aggression. TT1 was doing a sentry heavy double expand against drewbie, and drewbie couldn't do anything at any stage in the game.
|
|
|
The cat!! More info about the cat please.
|
On February 10 2011 12:04 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 11:54 jalstar wrote:On February 10 2011 11:51 Veil wrote: Could have concussion grenades not available until the factory also. This should have been the reaper nerf in the first place, 5rax reaper was overpowered because the marauder transition made it not all-in. Making concussive shell require factory would have made a reaper all-in possible, but impossible to successfully transition out of. Wasn't the problem mainly with Zerg? I don't think 5 rax reaper was much of a TvP strat. Marauders don't really need concusive to be effective against roaches, which was the most reliable response to that many reapers.
It was imbalanced at the time, but now, it probably would not be.
The problem was that once a terran was able to mass reapers, and get around 5-10 of them, they could start kiting EVERY unit. Roaches were 3 rance, so it was possible to get 10 shots in, kite back, get 10 shots in, kite back, and never take a hit. 4 range roach would mean they would start losing reapers regardless of micro. Zerglings could catch the reapers, but once you hit a ball, the zerglings melted super fast, and on maps like Metalopolis with a cliff everywhere it was very tricky.
|
FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
I'm going to go as far as to say this is the best starcraft II show available to the community at the moment. Enough drama (after all, the topic itself is about imbalanced) but even more professionalism to keep it very logical and fair. Enjoyed it tremendously.
I came in with a wrong view of imbalance, and now I've been persuaded (or rather, forced) to think otherwise.
You guys are doing a great job! Keep it up!
P.S. Idra just seems so happy while talking about imbalanced!
|
Just watched it. really like this topic because PvT seems impossible for me right now. I would have to agree with about almost everything they said on this topic, but I didn't like how in the end they said it's not imbalanced. Because everything they said leads to it being imbalanced. Terran can expand and pressure, while protoss is forced to fast robotics for an observer. If you are not getting a fast observer, you are blindly going something and hoping it works. Stim is way too strong for the beginning. A more cheap unit (the marauder) kills a stalker 1v1 WITHOUT stim. Protoss is forced into going mass sentry in the beginning in order to have some chance in holding the terran attacks. You also have to use forcefields without making any mistakes because a hole in your forcefields leads to the MM ball just getting near you and killing you. The terran is also guaranteed to do some damage and is never all-in when playing like that. I would say that getting fast high templars is impossible to use in order to stop this, so the only remaining unit is the colosus. However vikings are too good vs colosus, and colosus without range are even demolished by a simple focus fire from the marauders. All of this is pretty hard to form into words, you can only experience it by playing of course.
Im a random player and probably my best percentage from all my matchup is my TvP.. i just roflstomp all protosses with many different strategies ( well timed all ins and rax expand pressure builds ) ... I love playing random because when an opponent beats me with a strategy I think is too good, i then proceed to use it and then see how my next opponent will counter it. However in PvT I am really desperate... and TvP seems too easy for me.
Mech style TvP is not so good, I don't think I have many losses from terrans going siege tanks and/or hellions and/or thors combined with other units. Because Artosis and IdrA are right, when terran goes mech protoss has the Freedom to do whatever he wants (I usually mass expand and phoenix harass going into colosus zealot immortal and it demolishes mech terrans)
In conclusion I want to say that there needs to be some sort of tweak early game PvT that helps the protoss. If not, then terran will always control how the game goes.
|
This video turned out a lot better than the first one. I feel Artosis and Idra did a much better job of looking at all the possibilities and permutations for how this segment of the game can play out, as well as examining the motivations and concerns that affect play on both sides of the match-up. Much of this detail was missing from the first vid in the series.
|
Each time i hear how Protoss is poor i get ill. If you say that Protoss have hard time vs Terran in early game then what you will say about Terran life vs Protoss in late game? Super Hardocre Survival? (SHS). Force Fields are doing amazingly well vs early bio pushes and allows to win early minor battles just with gate units. Just throw MM ball without stim, shield and grenades on Protoss zeal/stalker/sentry ball and see what will happen. Terran need those upgrades to do anything early and Protoss dont need any upgrades beside warp tech for early game.
|
They're obviously biased towards Zerg wtf is this Zerg propoganda with Artosilini and Idralin?
Seriously though, great show. This one had a lot more depth to it, probably because your discussion covered an entire matchup rather than a specific unit.
|
People say protoss is stronger in the late game because most terrans go BIO like the WHOLE game which are tier 1 units, with some medivac viking support ( support units). The protoss race is said to be stronger because they use zealots, stalkers, sentries, colosus, immortals, HT, phoenix. It is absolutely normal when the limits hit from 150-200 in the late game, the marine marauder composition will lose. However a transition into Thors for example is very strong. Thors are actually really strong units in the late game terran.
|
haha when I saw the title it was some random kid QQing about OP
|
Reaaaalllly enjoyed watching this. I feel you guys did a better job this time of clarifying the show's purpose, and the discussion was just really deep and high-level. Awesome stuff.
Still not convinced about the Colossus thing, though. Just saying "other strategies will be found" strikes me as a tad facetious, as people have tried these different unit comps before; the thing is, they tend to have fairly big weaknesses that are very exploitable (e.g. the time it takes to get Templar tech up and running leading to big weaknesses to timing attacks, general weakness of Gateway units, Immortals slow speed and low range making them easy to snipe). Colossi for Protoss provides a stable, powerful 'ground' to stabilize the weaknesses of the units they're paired with; and even the threat of Colossi makes the enemy do things that they wouldn't otherwise do, making it easier for other comps to succeed. But remove the Colossi or weaken it sufficiently, and you'll also lessen the ability of other comps to be successful.
Now, that's not to say that the Colossus isn't too powerful, or shouldn't be nerfed; in fact, I think that Protoss late-game is going to have to be significantly nerfed sooner or later, and the Colossus may be a way of doing that. But it is to say that any nerfs would have to be done very carefully, and shouldn't be drastic enough to remove Colossi as a significant part of Protoss strategy in every matchup; or at least, not without potentially disastrous results.
Or at least that's my gut reaction. We'll see how things play out, though.
Thanks again for putting this out there; really enjoyed it.
|
On February 10 2011 11:48 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 11:35 ThePurist wrote: 42:41 is fucking art seriously. LOL Love the show nice work guys ^^;
It's poetry. I'm glad they went through and addressed some concerns/feedback from last week. And our GIFs will block out the sun...
I'm getting less practice time because of all the VODs/podcasts/living room discussions up there, I have to watch them all and it takes all evening D: seriously though, keep up the awesome work.
|
|
|
|