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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On February 10 2011 11:51 Veil wrote: Could have concussion grenades not available until the factory also. This should have been the reaper nerf in the first place, 5rax reaper was overpowered because the marauder transition made it not all-in. Making concussive shell require factory would have made a reaper all-in possible, but impossible to successfully transition out of. | ||
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strang
Canada28 Posts
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Nizzy
United States839 Posts
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aurawashere
Canada454 Posts
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
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haffy
United Kingdom430 Posts
On February 10 2011 11:54 jalstar wrote: This should have been the reaper nerf in the first place, 5rax reaper was overpowered because the marauder transition made it not all-in. Making concussive shell require factory would have made a reaper all-in possible, but impossible to successfully transition out of. Wasn't the problem mainly with Zerg? I don't think 5 rax reaper was much of a TvP strat. Marauders don't really need concusive to be effective against roaches, which was the most reliable response to that many reapers. | ||
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
On February 10 2011 11:54 Dommk wrote: I think the conclusion of it being easier for the Terran in this situation best describes it, it is not impossible to hold off, but there is a lot more pressure on the Protoss to not fuck up, one missed force field, not enough sentries, too many sentres, positioning, unit combination, choosing the right time to tech whilst getting pressured... ... He can't chronoboost Pheonix for ever, if so he will delay Colossus/upgrades, which isn't that great of a trade off, and it is not like the Pheonix cost any less, with a certain income he still can only get a certain amount of Phoenix/Colossus Yes, but the terran army relies on low tier units, while the protoss unit relies on having high tier units, and keeping them alive, which they can effectively do with 2 stargates even if the terran can produce 4 vikings at a time. Producing 4 vikings at a time is a huge detriment to to army size of terran, which is important because terran relies on army size because it's low tier. Producing phoenix detracts from the protoss force also, but if they can get a good amount of colossi and keep them alive they have the advantage. Also vikings serve no other use than to kill colossi, on the other hand phoenix can harass and pick up tanks if they are used. Also I don't agree with TvP being terran favored early game at all. Protoss has some of the most useful skills to stop early aggression. TT1 was doing a sentry heavy double expand against drewbie, and drewbie couldn't do anything at any stage in the game. | ||
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LostBLuE
Canada188 Posts
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Deleted User 109835
629 Posts
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
On February 10 2011 12:04 haffy wrote: Wasn't the problem mainly with Zerg? I don't think 5 rax reaper was much of a TvP strat. Marauders don't really need concusive to be effective against roaches, which was the most reliable response to that many reapers. It was imbalanced at the time, but now, it probably would not be. The problem was that once a terran was able to mass reapers, and get around 5-10 of them, they could start kiting EVERY unit. Roaches were 3 rance, so it was possible to get 10 shots in, kite back, get 10 shots in, kite back, and never take a hit. 4 range roach would mean they would start losing reapers regardless of micro. Zerglings could catch the reapers, but once you hit a ball, the zerglings melted super fast, and on maps like Metalopolis with a cliff everywhere it was very tricky. | ||
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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
I came in with a wrong view of imbalance, and now I've been persuaded (or rather, forced) to think otherwise. You guys are doing a great job! Keep it up! P.S. Idra just seems so happy while talking about imbalanced! | ||
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Holdinga
Bulgaria300 Posts
Im a random player and probably my best percentage from all my matchup is my TvP.. i just roflstomp all protosses with many different strategies ( well timed all ins and rax expand pressure builds ) ... I love playing random because when an opponent beats me with a strategy I think is too good, i then proceed to use it and then see how my next opponent will counter it. However in PvT I am really desperate... and TvP seems too easy for me. Mech style TvP is not so good, I don't think I have many losses from terrans going siege tanks and/or hellions and/or thors combined with other units. Because Artosis and IdrA are right, when terran goes mech protoss has the Freedom to do whatever he wants (I usually mass expand and phoenix harass going into colosus zealot immortal and it demolishes mech terrans) In conclusion I want to say that there needs to be some sort of tweak early game PvT that helps the protoss. If not, then terran will always control how the game goes. | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
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anotherone
90 Posts
If you say that Protoss have hard time vs Terran in early game then what you will say about Terran life vs Protoss in late game? Super Hardocre Survival? (SHS). Force Fields are doing amazingly well vs early bio pushes and allows to win early minor battles just with gate units. Just throw MM ball without stim, shield and grenades on Protoss zeal/stalker/sentry ball and see what will happen. Terran need those upgrades to do anything early and Protoss dont need any upgrades beside warp tech for early game. | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
Seriously though, great show. This one had a lot more depth to it, probably because your discussion covered an entire matchup rather than a specific unit. | ||
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Holdinga
Bulgaria300 Posts
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iPood
United States99 Posts
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Captain Peabody
United States3088 Posts
Still not convinced about the Colossus thing, though. Just saying "other strategies will be found" strikes me as a tad facetious, as people have tried these different unit comps before; the thing is, they tend to have fairly big weaknesses that are very exploitable (e.g. the time it takes to get Templar tech up and running leading to big weaknesses to timing attacks, general weakness of Gateway units, Immortals slow speed and low range making them easy to snipe). Colossi for Protoss provides a stable, powerful 'ground' to stabilize the weaknesses of the units they're paired with; and even the threat of Colossi makes the enemy do things that they wouldn't otherwise do, making it easier for other comps to succeed. But remove the Colossi or weaken it sufficiently, and you'll also lessen the ability of other comps to be successful. Now, that's not to say that the Colossus isn't too powerful, or shouldn't be nerfed; in fact, I think that Protoss late-game is going to have to be significantly nerfed sooner or later, and the Colossus may be a way of doing that. But it is to say that any nerfs would have to be done very carefully, and shouldn't be drastic enough to remove Colossi as a significant part of Protoss strategy in every matchup; or at least, not without potentially disastrous results. Or at least that's my gut reaction. We'll see how things play out, though. Thanks again for putting this out there; really enjoyed it.  | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On February 10 2011 11:48 Tachion wrote: ![[image loading]](http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/idra&artosishighfive.jpg) It's poetry. I'm glad they went through and addressed some concerns/feedback from last week. And our GIFs will block out the sun... I'm getting less practice time because of all the VODs/podcasts/living room discussions up there, I have to watch them all and it takes all evening D: seriously though, keep up the awesome work. | ||
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