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[QUOTE]On January 31 2011 23:40 Koshi wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 31 2011 22:45 aimaimaim wrote:
most people here didn't really get what the OP was trying to convey ..
sigh[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On January 31 2011 23:13 ShcShc wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 31 2011 22:22 Markus138 wrote:
Thus, all these answers: "It doesn't cost a lot of money" are VERY valid answers. [/QUOTE]
No they are irrelevant to the topic. As stated in the OP(!) it isn't about the price, 1 cent or 10 bucks makes little difference it's the act of having to use your credit card and pay a fee which potentially detracts new viewers. Disagree if you want but at least read and understand the OP.
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It's a business, they need to make money somehow. I'm curious how many who complain about having to pay for it realise just how expensive bandwidth/servers are on the scale that GOM would have setup for the GSL? It's not free, businesses are around to make money, or at the very least sustain what they have, and it's the business model they have chosen.
Would they have higher viewership if it was free? Sure. Would the servers be able to keep up with the increased demand without money to support it? Not a chance.
So to answer the OP's question I say yes it is a good idea and yes it is necessary.
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On January 31 2011 21:05 Jayson X wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 20:46 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2011 20:38 thehitman wrote:
It kills any potential newcomers, since they can't watch VOD's and the live stream time is usually too late or too early for other countries in the world.
Steps to watch GOM:
1: Register on the website
2: Download and install GOMTV players
3: tune in a 6O'clock in the morning
4: Log in to the website to be able to start the stream
if you want to watch vods or higher quality stream you have to:
5: Pay for it
Too many steps and it costs money, not the best way to get huge amount of viewers. Additionally the time at which the games starts is really crap for viewers and only unemployed teens can view it at those time, anyone with work or other life responsibilities is going to have a hard time tuning in at those times. The first video of every set is free. If newcomers want to watch, it's very easy to. I don't think you even need an account to watch it. EDIT: Yep, just tested. Even G1 of the finals is free. That is if you a) Find their website b) create an account c) download their player d) download their codecs Of course if newcomers want to watch GSL they will. That's not the point. The point is to introduce more viewers to the GSL expirience so they become customers. The first vod of every set should be on youtube and on the gsl site they should use the youtube player for the first vod aswell. That way they could boost viewernumbers and exposure. edit: Or I'm doing something wrong because I can't get the vods to work logged out.
for VODs you only need a) and b) (assuming you have a recent flash player already installed, wich most people have). I didn't try it, but if I remember correctly, you could sign in with your facebook acc, so hardly any trouble at all from what I understood.
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Calgary25981 Posts
On February 01 2011 00:21 crappen wrote:
Also notice one thing, its not about the amount of money, Im not greedy, I have money, but I will not be treated like shit.
Why are you so bitter? The service doesn't work well for you so you shouldn't pay for it. Everyone is happy.
You make it sound like GOM isn't clicking the "Provide great service to crappen" button just to be douches. It's obviously not the case. No need to be bitter about it.
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On February 01 2011 00:25 Longshank wrote:
No they are irrelevant to the topic. As stated in the OP(!) it isn't about the price, 1 cent or 10 bucks makes little difference it's the act of having to use your credit card and pay a fee which potentially detracts new viewers. Disagree if you want but at least read and understand the OP.
Are you deliberate stupid or what? IT IS ABOUT THE PRICE.
Is it about potatoes? Or tomatoes?
Is it about personal hygiene?
Is it about Jinro his sexy face?
NO. IT IS ABOUT THE PRICE. He wants the content to be free. THUS, the price to be 0.
GOM seems to acknowledge this problem too because they cut the ticket prices last season, but the actual procedure of making us pay (even just 1 cent) seems that it would cut GSL exposure. Its kind of like "What if Teamliquid made us pay 1$ to be able to see its contents?". Its absolutely worth it (hell, Il go as far as 50 bucks), but it wouldn't be anywhere near the most popular SC site as it is today.
The problem: The price.
The Solution from GomTV: Cut the price.
The problem OP has: The price.
The solution OP offers: Remove the price.
The problem GomTV has with OP his solution: They are running a company.
The problem OP has with GoMTV their solution: Not everybody wants/is able to see great content for a price that is worth it.
The problem with OP his solution in my eyes: GoMTV will have to ask for bankruptcy within a year.
The problem with GoMTV their solution in my eyes: Young people are not able to see this great content GoMTV provides.
I think I understand the OP, I understand GoMTV and I understand you.
But I do not understand the 150 posts in this thread that say:
"OMG why isn't it free"
"OMG all you people who think this is about the price, it isn't about the price."
EDIT: The OP wants this discussion ---> Isn't it sad that some people can't watch GoMTV in HD because they ask money?
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GOMTV wont get a penny from me, payed for the 3 first seasons, and I regret it, yes, regret it.
HQ Live is horribe, way too much lag for us in Europe
S4 had no lag at all. I had the same issue as you the previous 3 seasons, but it's fixed during S4 for me. (Norway) They are improving it, so don't take the performance of the first seasons as an example of how it is.
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There is so much free SC2 content out there, with amazing community support from Day9 and others...
Personally, I am very appreciative of GOMTV and the GSL. The value is insanely cheap in terms of hours of entertainment... and in terms of quality I get really nice streaming, and the VODS are totally solid. Might not be the same for everyone, but that is the beauty of it: It's not the only game in town. Tons of other free content, great casters, great players.
I'm sure they will adjust their business model as needed, to become/remain profitable.
I don't believe there is a mandate that GOMTV is responsible for growing eSport,
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if one day there is global advertising where someone is going to pay GOM for commercial time then they can make it free. For now think about it like you are watching cable tv or renting a movie. It is entertainment that has a demand and a price to produce. GOM needs to furnish a building and make fancy booths and provide utilities and keep a high quality stream up. Also they have to pay Tasteless and Artosis and John and buy equipment to keep the show running.
So if you do not want to pay for the highest quality games then don't. You can go watch the crap people like Husky put on youtube for free or you can pay a little bit and get a highly produced high level commentary from some of the best players in the world.
You get what you pay for really. If you want terrible commentary from Husky you get it for free, if you want high quality quality with high level players you get it from GOM.
(yes i know Day[9] gives is stuff away for free but he is not a company that is running a tournament monthly basis)
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Limited time free to watch, on a delay.
So, you can watch one season old VODS, WHILE the next season is playing. Before and after, nothing.
I think that'd work well.
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On February 01 2011 01:48 Kimaker wrote:
Limited time free to watch, on a delay.
So, you can watch one season old VODS, WHILE the next season is playing. Before and after, nothing.
I think that'd work well.
This or if they would make it so that people from different timezones can watch the livestream on delay once.
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The problem is the misleading title
Point of the op : Will gom get people that arent from esports scene to watch and pay their stream ?
Answer : of course not
What is the solution ?
-Gom do something to attract newcomers
-Free esport scene grow up with western tourneys so people will end up interested in gsl ....
a simple trending topics is no use with the current system to watch streams from gom, from 100 persons completely new to esports, probably 99.5 wont be bothered to register, pay, etc etc....
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Yes, more people will watch if all the streams were free, just as if our coaches coached for free, they'd have more students, and if cars were free more people would drive cars.
But, if the streams were free, GOM.tv might not put any effort into offering them at all. If our coaches coached for free, they probably wouldn't bother because their entire lives would be consumed by coaching with nothing coming to them for their efforts. If cars were free more people would drive them except there wouldn't be more cars to drive because nobody would make cars for free.
I get that there is a mentality today that everything on the Internet should be free. But the reality is, GOM.tv is a business like any other, they have to generate revenue like any other, and they have to weigh how much to charge to still maximize viewership while maintaining a solid revenue stream.
If I'm a business owner and I want to make X profit, I charge what I can for my product than sell Y amount to make X profit. I charge as much as the market will allow in order for that equation to make X (or more) profit. If I want to increase market share, I may temporarily lower my price and even operate at a loss for a while, but at the end of the day I want to make a profit. The fact that their SQ stream is free shows that they are still interested in growing their fan base.
In a nutshell, I've no issue at all with this business model, and would question the maturity and business accumen of anybody who DOES question it.
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its so cheap for the amount of games you get... and now its like 10dollar? thats nothinglol
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i dont get it way so many people are willing to pay for content these days.
as soon as its on the internet people pay for it.
there were numerous attempts to bring payTV to the broad masses, but all failed (at least here in germany), but as soon as it is in on the internet you start to pay for anything? totally crazy.
im probably of a too old generation, i also dont pay for iphone apps and mp3 downloads or porn or whatever you guys pay for on a regular basis, but i only bought a season ticket once and its not worth it and i will never again. now maybe if the casters wouldnt be so annoying and egocentric in their views, but since things stay like they are i cant be fooled into paying again.
i guess its just easier to let people pay as long as they dont mind, then add sponsors, double the money and then make advertisement as soon as you have some numbers to show. some good numbers ofc. which probably arent there. thats why we still have to pay.
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United States22883 Posts
On January 31 2011 23:49 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 16:59 StUfF wrote:
Players need to make money.
Companies need to make money.
Advertisers need to make money.
E-sports is a business in the end.
I don't think they care if they don't attract watchers who don't want to spend on their entertainment - "success" of e-sports is only secondary to making a goddamn living.
No one is challenging that, but asking people to pay for HQ stream sounds like GOM trying to make more money. I also think that all the microtransactions for seasonal / daily tickets does cost money as well for the whole bureaucracy involved in that. Personally I dont like paying for that when it would be easier if GOM just made a deal with an ad company to provide localized ads for each country like the ESL seems to be able to. It is entirely possible to get these ad sponsors and the ad breaks are in there already, so why waste money and time to force people to do it individually?
ESL uses Octoshape to cover the bandwidth, which pisses a lot of people off.
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Paying to watch starcraft is like buying one of those cable packages for hockey or football. Sure it costs less than those, but over time, it adds up, and the seasons continue throughout the year, so in the end it costs just as much. Only really hardcore fans will do it. I don't think the current GSL has what it takes to make me pay to watch it, and this is a conclusion I got after paying for GSL open 2 and 3. Honestly, both the korean and the english commentary for the GSL is wayyyyyy subpar compared to OGN for MBCGame commentaries(even if you don't understand korean, you can still feel the energy and the enthusiasm), and the lack of team based league makes it bland.
On a more personal note though, I like SC2 more as a gamer, but I like SC1 more as a spectator, so that might bias my judgements, but I still don't think it would be worth it to pay even if it was just as good as the sc1 broadcasts.
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The past pages have some recurring themes, well, they almost exclusively have these themes coming back:
- It hinders community growth
- They could rake money from putting it on youtube/some streaming service that has partner deals or simply because it would cut the costs of providing it
- they should just insert ads
- they should go find sponsors
- it is/it isn't like regular television
- my parents won't pay for me
Community
First of all, it doesn't make sense to view it from your personal perspective. Sure, you want the scene to grow big, to have the most content available in the easiest way possible etcetc.
But gomtv is a privately owned company with commercial goals. Their bottom-line isn't number of people in the sc community or anything like that. It's about making money, having a sustainable business.
This basically means that the community size, the number of GSL fans isn't relevant to them as long as it lowers their profits.
Their efforts in a gom house are in that light actually a really nice move, since we're most likely not the primary source of income. Even better, it's probably a signal they want to develop their foreign activities and make it become significant enough.
Besides, they certainly don't hurt the sc2 community overal: they do provide free stream (the finals are always during the weekends, so if you're really curious about GSL, you can most likely watch at least those), the first VOD is always free. Artosis has several matches of Koreans on his channel. (for those mainly interested in Korean scene as a whole and not specifically the GSL) And i doubt that there is any sizeable number of players who first hears about the Korean scene before getting to know anything about the foreign proscene.
youtube/ustream and similar
Obviously, if they'd provide the content this way, they can't charge for it. The only way to make money out of it is by the partnership deals most of these offer.
However, this has severe downsides:
Those advertising systems basically pop-up ads somewhere on the screen, but they're not at all incorporated in the show. So they have a very hard time grabbing your attention. The value of these is obviously way way lower then integrated advertising like Tasteless giving a big kiss to Sony or Tastosis bringing a regular toast with their Pespi drinks. Even simple banners are more effective when in the show, because at least they're in the area your eyes are paying attention to.
Just to give an idea of the value of these ads you get to see everywhere: those centrals pay you around 1$ for 1000 views... (there is some variation according to network, how interesting/well defined your audience is, the aggresive nature of the ad etcetc, but it still looks rather shitty, no?)
Also, especially in the case of youtube, you're negotiating with a very strong company. They totally don't need you. So i wouldn't be too optimistic of how much of the money your views generate are sent through to you.
Last, it's rather hard to develop the needed contacts, expertise and reputation to actually get into advertising/sponsorships yourself later on.
just insert ads
Quite similar to above, but while still streaming themselves: it has the main issues of above, except for lack of negotiating power. Downside is, they would need to adapt the GOMplayer and/or the VOD's to allow for their advertisment central partner to feed it ads which will then be shown.
Finding ads themselves isn't really feasible, but i'll explain below
Sponsorships
This is what really rakes in the money, since you can offer your sponsors a lot:
- airing time
- good placement of banners/products
- mentions/endorsements
- putting their name on/under the event (not only literally ofc)
- possibility for extra activities (like the lottery at the end, but there are certainly wider opportunities, like having players in your ads or on your package or some special signing sessions or whatever those creative marketing guys can come up with)
Basically what they already do for their Korean market. (and i have the impression they could easily drive up the intensity a bit if they wanted)
But GOM being a Korean Company and the foreign market being rather diffuse (and worldwide ofc) implies 2 significant barriers:
1. They have no expertise with dealing with companies who're mainly active abroad, i wouldn't be surpised if John was the only guy they have who speaks fluent English and has marketing/communication skills/experience. (and is familiar with foreign culture on top of that, nice resume in fact! :p) So it's very hard to reach out to companies interested in a worldwide sponsorship.
2. Because it's for the whole foreign scene, you need a company who's actually active in most of the world so the number of relevant viewers remains high. Now you might think that there are enough companies active around the globe (hell, their current sponsor is like Sony), but it's more complicated:
- Quite some multinationals actually tailor their image to local markets. (in extreme cases, they may even be hurting their image in some places if they accepted)
- Many multinationals use a local strategy for their marketing, where local departments are in control of marketing for their region.
Also, it wouldn't be that easy to have a second main sponsor for the foreign market integrated in the show, besides the one for the Korean market. Ofc, if it's really a global sponsor, you don't have the split. But then again, the value one gets for the Korean market alone is (at least right now) so large that it's still their main selling point to anyone they'd partner with.
television
well, their are common themes: it's presented as a tv-show. and just as for television: if you want to watch it afterwards, you have to pay. (well, at least in Belgium :p and i dont' know how it is for channels that charge you anyhow in order to be available)
okay, the hours are bad, but it's korean television. :p if you're favorite sitcom was on korean television, you would have exactly the same problem, but probably wouldn't think of it as something they should fix.
ofc, there are differences, mainly: there is no 24/7 cycle at the gom stream, so they can actually restream if they wanted to. and it's over the internet, allowing a bit more flexibility.
also note that you don't get commercial-free television for free. (and God, if i had to choose between an mlg-like commercial cycle and paying, no way i'd keep my wallet locked. that's ofc personal opinion)
But i'm in fact not that interested in this comparison, only mentionned it because it kept popping back up.
Parents Won't Pay
Really, consider the following:
1. you can pay with paypal.
2. you can put money on your paypal account without any kind of card in your possession, all you need is a bank account. (only the account, so again, no banking card or anything)
3. all banks offer free accounts below 16 years of age and most extend that up to 25 years of age. (well, again, i'm only sure about that in Belgium  )
Even if you would be in the rare situation of not even having a bank account, i find it hard to imagine a parent opposing to you putting your pocket money on an account instead of a wallet or below the matress or whatever. 
Really, remember that. Paypal is that awesome. (i don't know if there was an age registration limitation for paypal, but common, it's not like they'll go after you if you lie on that, as long as you don't do illegal stuff with your paypal account)
ps: please consider the post as a whole, don't go berserk on one point, ignoring all the others like they were never made.
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On February 01 2011 00:33 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 00:21 crappen wrote:
Also notice one thing, its not about the amount of money, Im not greedy, I have money, but I will not be treated like shit. Why are you so bitter? The service doesn't work well for you so you shouldn't pay for it. Everyone is happy. You make it sound like GOM isn't clicking the "Provide great service to crappen" button just to be douches. It's obviously not the case. No need to be bitter about it.
Not sure why I am bitter, Im usually not bitter about anything. The first 3 seasons I followed sc2 a lot, but GOMTV was simply not working properly, and it was pain to watch LQ. It just seems they spent more time on shutting down HQ youtube VODS and restreams then fixing the issue towards europe (which according to people have been fixed in S4, so that is a good sign). So yes, I had some hard time following S1-3.
I question the move they made of making people pay at this stage of the growth of SC2 as an esport.
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honestly, if it were any other issue, id just be like F off man not paying 1 cent, especially with the nice SQ stream. But since its Starcraft2, a game I would personally like to see gain E-fame and spread worldwide, I would support gom with a 10 buck ticket, especially since Hey, its only 10 bucks. And if its something you actually want to improve, like stream quality/Vods. Why not.
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You wont win any diehard broodwar fans over by declining their favorite sport and then wanting them to pay for your shit that took away my passion.
Thats my look on it, I can enjoy sc2 matches but if they want me to pay for something like that.
They do it the wrong way around. I'd pay if I had to, to watch BW. I wouldn't if I wasnt allready inside the community.
The SQ live is unstable as hell and has a viewer limmit to prevent an allready existing lag, but if they decrease viewers to STILL decreasing the lag.
I never understood why GSL didn't restream itself into multiple SQ's, that would fix so much of the lag...
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EPT
