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On January 07 2011 11:52 -orb- wrote:
Many of the points here are good, but I thought I should point out how dumb you make yourself look when you use baller as your reference for a low post count user with a good post quality.
Do you seriously not realize that baller is an alt account? AFAIK it's still pretty much agreed upon that baller is Hot_Bid's alt. Even if it isn't, it's pretty generally agreed that it's an alt of a high post count user that's been here for years. Pretending like he's a new user that just got here with sc2 and yet puts out good quality posts is a joke
yeah man, DONT YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT TL.NET?
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On January 07 2011 11:50 Ursad0n wrote:
Here is what I have to say:
There is a difference between a BUG and Imbalance, one is real, one is imaginary, bugs need to be reported but that's not what I mean by imbalance.
Yeah they may favor certain things, but what are you gonna do? You DO NOT need to bitch/rant, perhaps calmly and eloquently explaining to them what maps have problems, why, and how to improve it is what's nevessary. Saying "HEY FUCK YOU GUYS CAN'T MAKE MAPS FOR SHIT BLAH BLAH BLAh......." gets you nothing, they're going to ignore that shit. If people spent half the time playing as they did complaining about the map balance they could probably find a solution or at least find a less bad strategy for those maps
Of course you're right that well-thought-out posts are better than just bitching about a problem. But the point remains that if we ignore the imbalances in the map pool--and the degradation of game quality that results (Compared the average level of quality of ZvT's on close-pos LT and, say, cross-pos Metalopolis and Shakuras Plateau.) than we'll gain nothing except more bad maps. And if we're talking bugs, I think the fact that you need 3 tumours to get to the bottom of the ramp on one side of SS and 2 on the others is a pretty big bug (As is a T walling in with 2 buildings on one side at his far choke and 3 on the other) that's been around since the beginning of beta--because no one has really complained about it. The bug analogy was just to show that mass complaints work. So if a player has a real problem with something, he should post about it. Bitch about it stupidly? No. Say he lost only because of it? No. But post about it, yes. Only then will stupid positional imbalances and bad maps go away.
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Fully support this post very good well thought out opinions. I'll admit I used to be one of those players that cried imba when he lost (I've only ever played Starcraft 2 as a serious RTS) but I just learned that none of it is really that bad when I started playing random. Thanks for this post, if just a few people read it and decide that you know what maybe it's not about winning all the time and maybe it's not about who's "imbalanced", the game is about having fun, getting better, and with starcraft 2, hopefully the new emerging community that will grow out of it.
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Australia8532 Posts
Excellent write up; i appreciate you articulating what a lot of the community already thinks.. Small things within the game may be broken (zealot AI verse Thor with repairing scvs etc) but at the end of the day just fucking get on with it. Play the game.
+ Show Spoiler +The Solution: Making the Game What It Should Be:
Stop crying about imbalance
Play the game to improve
Stop making stupid useless posts
If u think BW is better go play it
Treat the game as if perfectly balanced, play to beat the Strong builds (not IMBA Strong)
Don't talk about imbalance
Don't respond to someone talking about imbalance
Go play the game and have Fun!!!!
I think this needs to be printed out, laminated and stuck above every computer screen for forum users.. most notably the bold one. This is a new game that is a matter of months old; quit the balance whine and let things develop as they can. It is important to have feedback; but the weekly "omg maps are imba" threads are unnecessary. BW is where it is today from 10 years of hard work from inspirational people like BoxeR; sc2 will have it's BoxeR (maybe even BoxeR itself) but we need to be patient.
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But you're basically saying you want the start location closer to the ramp, meaning that you would be more vulnerable to harass, less able to simcity without congestion, and you would have large vulnerable areas at he back of the base. Would you rather have to wait a little for creep tumors, or die to, say, hellions?
Additionally I completely agree that once something has proven to be advantageous and impossible to overcome for one race (in multiple situations after much testing) then it should be brought to their attention, but not just looking at a map, saying it's small and crying imba before it's played, setting a precedent for imba claims on said map.
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On January 07 2011 11:52 -orb- wrote:
Many of the points here are good, but I thought I should point out how dumb you make yourself look when you use baller as your reference for a low post count user with a good post quality.
Do you seriously not realize that baller is an alt account? AFAIK it's still pretty much agreed upon that baller is Hot_Bid's alt. Even if it isn't, it's pretty generally agreed that it's an alt of a high post count user that's been here for years. Pretending like he's a new user that just got here with sc2 and yet puts out good quality posts is a joke
Yes it's Hot_Bid. I wouldn't have said anything if you didn't just because it's so freaking funny.
The spirit of this post is good, but you take it too far. You cannot treat the game as perfectly balanced, especially when mathematically, it's not.
TvP on Delta Quadrant has something like a 75% winrate for T.
Xel Naga Caverns is almost impossible to hold 4 gate on as a zerg.
Imbalance actually does exist, and while we can work around it and deal with it, it doesn't mean it's not there. The problem is not discussions of imbalance, but people who have no business discussing it bringing horrible comments into the discussion. Leave the discussion to the top level players and pros.
If you want to talk about something as a lower level player/spectator, talk about enjoyment of games. Talk about how much fun it was to watch the endless struggle of a terran to push out and secure territory against a massive protoss death ball in BW. Talk about how you really wish zerg had more enjoyable playstyles than reactionary defensive play or cheese and how you miss muta micro. Talk about why you find short games that all look the same on these tiny maps really boring to watch.
Those are points that are valid no matter what your skill level.
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On January 07 2011 12:05 Ursad0n wrote:
But you're basically saying you want the start location closer to the ramp, meaning that you would be more vulnerable to harass, less able to simcity without congestion, and you would have large vulnerable areas at he back of the base. Would you rather have to wait a little for creep tumors, or die to, say, hellions?
Additionally I completely agree that once something has proven to be advantageous and impossible to overcome for one race (in multiple situations after much testing) then it should be brought to their attention, but not just looking at a map, saying it's small and crying imba before it's played, setting a precedent for imba claims on said map.
It's a difference of one matrix. But it's huge, because it means you don't waste a creep tumor at the top of your ramp. So it doesn't make you more vulnerable to harrass. And there are more of those everywhere--like, on one metalopolis base, you can run mutas around the sides where they can't get hit by marines, but in the rest, you can't. And there's one base where you can park an overlord to spy on your opponent's worker count, but you can't in the other 3. Really screws up ZvZ.
And I'm not saying that people should complain about every loss, only about situations where there is a fairly significant bias--not an insurmountable one (That doesn't exist), but a situation where an evenly matched pair might end up with, say, a 70-30 split. That's a bit much to ask for the community, I know, but without some complaining like that, nothing will happen.
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It wasn't until savior lost to Bisu that people stopped crying about imbalance in scbw. No SC forum was free of them. TL was stricter on them, but only after absorbing so much repetition no one could bare to read it anymore. I don't expect things to relent much before or after the next installment of the game. It will probably be years after every things finalized before it becomes to mundane to bother typing about.
Then it becomes the mapmakers job.
Bonus
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OP just wants to defend mules.
JOKING
I like this thread. Too many people talking about imbalance. I haven't said to myself since I started playing; I lost because of imbalance! It's too early for me to understand this game at a BW level, pros likewise.
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Great post. Now if only you could get this to those 300K+ retard subscribers to Husky and HD on youtube, thatd be a blessing. Seriously though, Husky's and HD's youtube channels have become kind of a forum in themselves. Its just that all it is is a bunch of idiots complaining about everything with no logic to back up their posts. My problem is that that population is probably a better representation of the SC2 population than TL.net is...
On January 07 2011 11:52 -orb- wrote:
Many of the points here are good, but I thought I should point out how dumb you make yourself look when you use baller as your reference for a low post count user with a good post quality.
Do you seriously not realize that baller is an alt account? AFAIK it's still pretty much agreed upon that baller is Hot_Bid's alt. Even if it isn't, it's pretty generally agreed that it's an alt of a high post count user that's been here for years. Pretending like he's a new user that just got here with sc2 and yet puts out good quality posts is a joke
His point is that some people judge a post by the posters post count even before they read the damn thing. Regardless of whether or not baller is Hot_Bid's alt, it is still an ID that has a relatively low post count. It doesn't matter that this he is really a highly experienced TLer with a low post count. In fact, thats kind of the point. People will see the low post count and judge him and his posts to be relatively less informed compared to, say, you just because they don't know who he is.
Oh, and you should really hold back on the condescension
On January 07 2011 12:16 KingFool wrote:Bonus
That thread is pretty awesome. That is the biggest QQ i have ever seen, I dont think any SC2 thread has been that bad and not been closed by the 2nd page. And Im pretty sure 90% of DoctorHelvetica's posts in that thread would have gotten someone banned immediately if it was in the SC2 forum
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I think when you say "dont cry about maps" is ridiculous when you have maps like lost temple that are SOOOOOO Terran favored vs Zerg.
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I'm pretty sure most of the imbalance talk comes from WoW players, but seriously I love this thread, people should try to get better at the game, crying that something is op doesn't help in any way.
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Yes, imbalance exists, but who the fuck is going to listen to a noob (ot 100k noobs) complaining about it, if something is truly imbalanced then it will become apparent in pro-level games, so at the moment there aren't changes to be made to it, and overcoming the imbalances (or trying to) will make you improve as a player.
@orb, also I like the use of baller as an example for exactly that reason, people don't know the story behind someone, it could be a new account, or they could be a smurf, but many people will discredit them because of a low post count and that's retarded, I bet at least 1 person saw my post count and immediately left the thread because it wasn't from a "veteran poster"
EDIT: If you'd like to see an example of the people this post was directed at check out the B.net version of this post
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Hey Ursad0n, nice post. Here's my 2 cents:
Sure, some units per race are more efficient per cost. But isn't figuring out how to deal with the problems in each matchup the challenging (and dare I say, fun) part of the game? Shouldn't the race-specific difficulties, strengths, and uniqueness be celebrated? Does anyone like to play mirror mu every single game? I don't think so. Or if the game is as straightforward and obvious for everyone like tic tac toe, revolutionists like Boxer and Bisu (just two random examples) would never had the platform to rise above all others or to even exist. Heck you wouldn't catch even a n00b like me investing my precious time to it. I'm sure that goes for everyone, gosu or otherwise.
Of course game-design issues are still there to be fixed but there is a difference between offering constructive criticism (in appropriate forums) and shouting imbalance. The difference is definite but unfortunately too subtle for your average leaguer to grasp. Honestly imo only game designers or unbiased pros (ie not many) can truly offer worthwhile and objective opinions. To the n00bs (including me)... one word: L2P.
Broodwar over the course of a decade has matured to perfection. But in some ways, there's really nowhere for one to go after reaching Nirvana. "Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens." Aren't the uncertainties that SC2 has to offer the refreshing air that many people had hoped to experience once again?
Edit: When I first got SC2 I had the elitist attitude of everything sucks compared to BW. I thought marauders were OP blah blah etc etc (everyone says so, so it must be true right?). Truly infectious those QQ tears are... don't go near them. But then I changed my attitude and I started to enjoy the game *surprise*. Finally I saw  oGsMC go "Marauders imba, lol jk" and roflstomp everyone. No other time did the fact "i r n00b, L2P" taste so sweet.
tl;dr : play to win, don't play to whine. Less QQ and keep TL the awesome place it has been.
My timid suggestion to the mods: have an even more rigorous stance against imbaQQ talk by actively and mercilessly deleting these posts to prevent good threads from getting hijacked, is that physically possible?
Anyways, considering it's my first post I should shut up now. Go TL; lurking lluminium signing out :D
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Great post, I agree completely. But I think the OP raises an important question without quite answering it: What in the community changed to bring this about?
Has the gaming demographic actually changed? I suspect not much. Probably it has more to do with raised expectations for SC2 as compared to BW. From day one, SC2 was going to be a major e-sports game, whereas BW just assumed that role through being better than anything before it. Letting so much of the general community in on the beta and the actual game development probably also contributed to the sense of entitlement.
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Sorry Steppes is just clearly imba for any race/build who is based off of macro. It only promotes all in as for the post is 2 months 2 late. Every the QQ nerds who cried about imbalance has long died off when they stopped getting attention. Go post this on the official forums if you want more attention.
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I was a BMer and i quit. I was never one of the IMBA guys, but I would have quit also by now. You sit in front of your PC and suddenly you understand that there is no sense to it. It rarely makes you feel better. You should rather drink a glass of water than call something imba. Or maybe get a girlfriend? 
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On January 07 2011 12:51 Joroth wrote:
Sorry Steppes is just clearly imba for any race/build who is based off of macro. It only promotes all in as for the post is 2 months 2 late. Every the QQ nerds who cried about imbalance has long died off when they stopped getting attention. Go post this on the official forums if you want more attention.
... you're one of them aren't you?
Please tell me what useful input this post provided.
You clearly didn't read through the thread
Imbalance posts (and discussions) are still around, they're just not their own threads because they got closed so they make posts in other people's threads
You're only adding to the problem with your "evaluation" of Steppes.
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On January 07 2011 12:54 Ursad0n wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 12:51 Joroth wrote:
Sorry Steppes is just clearly imba for any race/build who is based off of macro. It only promotes all in as for the post is 2 months 2 late. Every the QQ nerds who cried about imbalance has long died off when they stopped getting attention. Go post this on the official forums if you want more attention. ... you're one of them aren't you? Please tell me what useful input this post provided. You clearly didn't read through the thread Imbalance posts (and discussions) are still around, they're just not their own threads because they got closed so they make posts in other people's threads You're only adding to the problem with your "evaluation" of Steppes.
Don't respond to someone talking about imbalance
See what I did there?
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On January 07 2011 10:39 Geovu wrote:
OH MY GOD THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS THREAD.
I'M SORRY FOR TYPING IN CAPS BUT GODDAMMIT I AM SICK OF IMBALANCE TALK.
Then go play a balanced game.
That is all I have to say to this entire circle jerk thread.
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EPT
